So I just received a ticket in the mail from an alleged speeding violation I had almost 5 months ago in Cleveland.  Since there is no proof I was driving the car (and I'm not even sure I was) am I responsible for paying the ticket?

 

I've heard about other cities that cannot collect on red light tickets because there is no proof that the person ticketed was the violator.  The cities still issue the tickets and most people pay them because they think they have to.

 

Is there anyone here that has had experience with this?

 

Thanks. 

It's a civil charge.  They won't issue an arrest warrant if you ignore it, but they will send it to collections. 

 

If you claim you were not the driver, they'll require you to rat out the actual driver.

In Columbus, if they cannot prove conclusively who was driving, the charge is usually dropped....but you have to appeal the ticket to get that done.

As I understand it, if you are the owner of the vehicle, you are responsible for paying the ticket.  There is a process you can go through to prove your innocence if you can prove you were not driving the car that day, but you would be required to tell the court who was, and then that person would have to pay.

 

I say letting an infraction sit on your driving record is not a good idea.  If you are EVER involved in even a minor fender bender, get a parking ticket, or any other kind of ticket, they could compound the violations and turn it into a warrant, and you'll have very hefty fines to pay and be forced to appear in court, much more than whatever the cost of this ticket is.

 

JMO.

As I understand it, if you are the owner of the vehicle, you are responsible for paying the ticket.

 

Exactly.  Since you are the owner, you're responsible for what happens with your car.  If a friend is driving you car, you're responsible.

Tickets also have a nasty habit of increasing your car insurance rates.

Tickets also have a nasty habit of increasing your car insurance rates.

 

I don't know that these get reported to insurance the same way.  I don't believe they go on your driving record at all.  They're no-points offenses, almost an invoice instead of a ticket.  If you don't pay and they ding your credit, that would probably impact insurance rates.

 

The fact that one can be charged simply for owning the car has been used to challenge these laws in the past, unsuccessfully I think.  If I remember correctly, the only challenge that has worked is when they violate their own law by not having warning signs or providing 30-day notice.  Some of the cameras in Cleveland are mobile cameras in unmarked cop cars (frequently at 32nd and Detroit) with no advance signage.  Advance signage is not required for mobile cameras, but plainly marked vehicles are required.  I'm not sure black and white with no light bar or emblems constitutes "plainly marked" under the ordinance.

 

From the actual Cleveland ordinance:

 

"The Director of Public Safety shall cause the general public to be notified by means of a press release issued at least thirty days before any given camera is made fully-operational and is used to issue tickets to offenders. Before a given camera issues actual tickets, there shall be a period of at least two weeks, which may run concurrently with the 30-day public-notice period, during which only “warning” notices shall be issued.

 

At each site of a red light or fixed speed camera, the Director of Public Service shall cause signs to be posted to apprise ordinarily observant motorists that they are approaching an area where an automated camera is monitoring for red light or speed violators. Mobile speed units shall be plainly marked vehicles."

 

This is BS. We as a society need to decide not to allow these cyborgs to make decisions that only humans can make.

To me, cameras that catch minor or major offenses translate to less money spent on police staffing.  Plus, if you're breaking the law, who is someone to say that they shouldn't be penalized for it, even it if *is* a speeding violation.

 

I'd rather there be automatic enforcement and penalty across the board, no matter if you're driving with a child in the back seat or a DUI on your record.

http://www.phantomplate.com/

 

Problem solved.

http://www.phantomplate.com/

 

Problem solved.

 

Those are illegal in ohio.  My boss had one and got pulled over and the officer was pretty angry and told him he better never see that on his car again.

http://www.phantomplate.com/

 

Problem solved.

 

That's sad and ridiculous.  I'm tired of these games.  "Oh, how can I evade the laws of the land?"

http://www.phantomplate.com/

 

Problem solved.

 

That's sad and ridiculous.  I'm tired of these games.  "Oh, how can I evade the laws of the land?"

 

I agree.  Just pay the damn ticket!

On the one hand, across-the-board penalties are more fair than selective enforcement.  On the other hand, granting legal authority to a machine over humans is troubling on many levels.  Also troubling is that the manufacturer gets commission on tickets-- meaning that even though they're not technically allowed to, they have an incentive to off-calibrate and give people tickets they don't derseve.

On the one hand, across-the-board penalties are more fair than selective enforcement.  On the other hand, granting legal authority to a machine over humans is troubling on many levels.  Also troubling is that the manufacturer gets commission on tickets-- meaning that even though they're not technically allowed to, they have an incentive to off-calibrate and give people tickets they don't derseve.

 

Oh for christs sakes!

^Seems like that's the only crack in the process that needs patching up.  Otherwise, I'd be okay if they implemented it today.

 

I'm sure there's a way around giving the manufacturer commission, unless it's bound by contract.

There's always a contract.  Unfortunately, camera revenues at least indirectly help the local prosecutors offices so any challenge to the commission per ticket provision would have to come from higher authority.

^That additional information helps me to understand it a bit more.  Government intervention from a higher office could definitely cut administrative and wage costs in the long run, I believe.  A resolution to give camera manufacturers a set monetary amount per year would work, and would probably extinguish any need to manipulate technology to get more money.

 

As for the original post, I'm not sure why the ticket was sent so late after the violation.  I'm sure that this could be refined in the future, so that violations could be transmitted and recorded electronically, and tickets could be printed and mailed immediately.  I would be very pleased if such a process came to fruition. 

^That additional information helps me to understand it a bit more.  Government intervention from a higher office could definitely cut administrative and wage costs in the long run, I believe.  A resolution to give camera manufacturers a set monetary amount per year would work, and would probably extinguish any need to manipulate technology to get more money.

 

As for the original post, I'm not sure why the ticket was sent so late after the violation.  I'm sure that this could be refined in the future, so that violations could be transmitted and recorded electronically, and tickets could be printed and mailed immediately.  I would be very pleased if such a process came to fruition. 

 

I think there is a delay and it happens with other agencies as well.  My cousin came to visit me and drove.  He went thru the easy pass lanes on the Bridge without paying.  3/4 months later he got a ticket in the mail.

Whew!  Well, once I didn't have toll money on an exit ramp in suburban Chicago, but I needed to get off the highway to *get* change.  I sat on the shoulder for a few minutes, wondering what to do.  Eventually, I just speed through the EZ-Pass.  Thank goodness I didn't get a ticket.  Perhaps they sensed my mistake and took sympathy, especially considering my out-of-state plates. ;)

http://www.phantomplate.com/

 

Problem solved.

 

That's sad and ridiculous.  I'm tired of these games.  "Oh, how can I evade the laws of the land?"

 

I'm just saying that if you're upset about the system you can do a couple of things.  1) whine about it or 2) do something about it.  Lots of people don't agree with certain laws and/or how they're enforced.  It's up to you to decide whether you follow those societal rules or not.  Personally I don't care and I would just pay the ticket (like I've done before), but if you're looking for another alternative to curb your emotions then that's a potential solution.

^I'm just discussing the issue as everyone else is.  Really, these forums are for whining anyway.  We all gain additional perspective when someone comes on and mentions something we haven't thought of.

 

I expressed that an electronic tracking system of enforcement does not discriminate on how law-abiding someone is versus another.  I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I could come in here with a (grand)fatherly lecture/rant that would upset the majority of you, but I'm letting you off with a warning this time; DON'T SPEED!  :x

 

 

 

 

 

:-)

I could come in here with a (grand)fatherly lecture/rant that would upset the majority of you, but I'm letting you off with a warning this time; DON'T SPEED!  :x

 

 

 

 

 

:)

 

Um....I'd rather have the speach/rant, cause that post was a dud!

I could come in here with a (grand)fatherly lecture/rant that would upset the majority of you, but I'm letting you off with a warning this time; DON'T SPEED!  :x

 

 

:)

 

Um....I'd rather have the speach/rant, cause that post was a dud!

 

My job is to give you what's good for you, which may not always be what you'd rather have. :whip:

I could come in here with a (grand)fatherly lecture/rant that would upset the majority of you, but I'm letting you off with a warning this time; DON'T SPEED!  :x

 

 

:)

 

Um....I'd rather have the speach/rant, cause that post was a dud!

 

My job is to give you what's good for you, which may not always be what you'd rather have. :whip:

 

I like it like that!  (grrrrr)

I've gotten one of these before and can confirm that it has not affected my insurance rate.

^I'm just discussing the issue as everyone else is.  Really, these forums are for whining anyway.  We all gain additional perspective when someone comes on and mentions something we haven't thought of.

 

I expressed that an electronic tracking system of enforcement does not discriminate on how law-abiding someone is versus another.  I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

 

I know...I had no qualms with anything anyone said on this topic.  I was speaking generally about people complaining about "the man" in a situation like this.  If you don't like it, then don't follow it.  Authority only exists when you subject yourself to its power.

I was speaking generally about people complaining about "the man" in a situation like this. If you don't like it, then don't follow it. Authority only exists when you subject yourself to its power.

 

I'm all for that in principle, but they will put you through collections if you don't pay up.  The legal/financial system is all-encompassing.  The Man doesn't like to be ignored, any more than those nice men in suits who came to collect the fire insurance payment. 

THEN DON'T SPEED!

 

YOU BREAK THE LAW, YOU MUST PAY. 

 

PERIOD!

^^Yes, but paying a fine is in no way accepting the power of authority.  If you were to stop speeding (or whatever) as a result then you would be subjecting yourself to that authority.

 

If the only purpose of speeding violations is to fine someone then what's the real purpose of those laws?  I feel that I can be a safe driver and in control of my vehicle at speeds over the posted speed limit (i.e. 80mph in a 65mph zone).  The point is to not put anyone in danger (including yourself).  If I get busted (which I have twice before) then so be it.  I pay my fine and move about my merry way.

 

*Sorry for the tangents about authority and its power structure.  I've been reading books on that topic lately and thinking about it a lot.

Paying the fine is tacitly accepting the authority's ultimatum, the ultimatum expressed so eloquently by MTS above.  Those fines are disproportionately onerous on poor people.  The cameras are only in Cleveland, so poor people also get a disproportionate share of the tickets.  The fact that they are largely on commuter routes moderates this tendency a bit, but if your whole life takes place in the burbs you have no cameras to worry about.

^Agreed.

Paying the fine is tacitly accepting the authority's ultimatum, the ultimatum expressed so eloquently by MTS above.  Those fines are disproportionately onerous on poor people.  The cameras are only in Cleveland, so poor people also get a disproportionate share of the tickets.  The fact that they are largely on commuter routes moderates this tendency a bit, but if your whole life takes place in the burbs you have no cameras to worry about.

 

Yes, it's a Cleveland issue.  If other cities wanted cameras they would get them.  If people from other cities break the law, they should be ticketed as well.

 

If you don't like the rules, you now who to contact.  I live in the city and if you cannot follow the rules of MY CITY then stay the fuck out!

I drive 100mph on the freeway and get away with it. 

 

J/k, I did that once.  Although I did get away with it.  Ticket said I was driving 75 mph, not 100.  Went to pay it, but they dropped it.

There is a process you can go through to prove your innocence if you can prove you were not driving the car that day, but you would be required to tell the court who was, and then that person would have to pay.

 

So much for innocent until proven guilty, huh?

 

Aside from having to fork over $100 for something I'm not even sure I'm responsible for, my biggest issue with this is that they cannot prove that I was driving the car.  Sure, the car is registered to me but I don't keep a log of where my car is at during every minute of the day and who was driving it. 

 

Furthermore, many of these cities get these cameras at no cost but they send a % of the profits to the manufacturer.  There is something seriously wrong when law enforcement ("To protect and serve") is used as a profit center/revenue generator. 

 

Regionalism would help this.  It should be everyone or no one.  Speed cameras aren't popular anywhere and nobody buys the safety argument.  Equal enforcement and cost savings are two good reasons in favor, but to me targeting low income areas with surveillance robots weighs too heavily against it.  That isn't the future I'm looking for.

 

I don't think cameras would ever survive a referendum in Cleveland.  But if I were on council, it would be tough for me to try repealing them.  Bye bye balanced budget.  Suburbs don't want them either, but they don't need the revenue enough for anyone to put their name on it.  The cameras are a symptom and a sign of the city's financial situation.  Putting so many on commuter routes was the nicest thing Cleveland could do for its residents.

 

Massive boulevards like Clifton and Chester would be 50 mph in Toledo.  It's not anarchy.  The streets don't flow with blood.  The propriety of some of Cleveland's speed limits is questionable.  Little things can add up when people make up their minds about a place.  Cleveland could be more welcoming.  Let's not have people answering to robots.

Aside from having to fork over $100 for something I'm not even sure I'm responsible for, my biggest issue with this is that they cannot prove that I was driving the car.  Sure, the car is registered to me but I don't keep a log of where my car is at during every minute of the day and who was driving it.

 

 

You *should* keep track of who's driving your car!  Unless you run a business, and you car is the company car.

 

 

You *should* keep track of who's driving your car!  Unless you run a business, and you car is the company car.

 

 

Can I get an Amen!!

Do you remember who was driving your car 5 months ago? 

Do you remember who was driving your car 5 months ago? 

 

Yes.  I know every time my car goes out my garage.

,,, Unless you run a business, and you car is the company car.

 

Especially if it's a company car. If you're splitting automobile use between personal and business, and you want to deduct business-related automobile expense, you should keep a log book with the name of driver, purpose/destination of trip, and odometer readings in and out, every time the car is used for business purposes. If the IRS challenges you on your business-related automobile expense and you don't have a log book, you'll be S.O.L.

Charter amendment would temper speed camera

By Eric Bradley, Cincinnati Enquirer, April 7, 2010

 

HAMILTON - The sun shined brightly, the wind whipped fiercely and the motorists at rush hour at Ohio 4 and High Street were aware or unaware they may soon be caught speeding and ticketed by a police speed-enforcement camera.

 

Jim Berns, a Libertarian Ohio 1st Congressional District candidate, was aware, and he was at the busy intersection protesting Hamilton's decision last week to start using the device.

 

--

 

The Sixth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution ensures that an individual accused of a crime has the opportunity "to be confronted with the witnesses against him."

 

What happens when the accuser has no eyes, but a lens, and no voice, but stored electronic memory?

 

--

 

^ Key. These illegal speed traps are not physical witnesses, and how do you, in a court of law, confront the witness? You can't. It's electronic. It's big brother. The great fact about this is that the private company takes a hefty chunk of the fine from the speed cameras (like red light cameras) -- so it is a revenue generator, and they don't deduct points from your license or report the offense to the insurance company, so it is purely about the money.

I don't have an issue with the idea of cameras for red lights or speeding.  However, i do think that they should be run by a public entity with a very transparent operation and a well defined appeals process.  Unfortunately, they are typically maintained and operated by private companies that are incentivized to give out more tickets.  I disagree with that type of use.

I got one of these from East Cleveland a few months back, mailed from some company in Rhode Island or Connecticut.  Of course I didn't pay it, they have no legal recourse to collect.  Pathetic attempt by a declining city to line the pockets of its unnecessary politicians.

This could also go in the pet peeves thread - It pisses me off that they have mobile units that literally hide behind rows of parked cars in school zones.  I got a ticket a couple years ago for $200 for going 28 in a 20.  Are these police officers manning these mobile units?  If you can pay a cop to man the mobile unit, how about he just actually pulls people over???

This is our future:

 

Police do man the mobile vehicles in Cleveland.. Unlike most major cities who use civilians in unmarked minivans. The City of Cleveland cites on +11 mph in non school zones, +8 mph in school zones.

A city issuing illegal traffic tickets? Advocating for extended 30 MPH ranges despite the _six-lane highway_ having a 40+ MPH design speed? Geez.

 

Maryland Speed Camera Program Faces New Legal Challenge

Speed camera tickets issued on the weekend in Maryland may be thrown out in court over a lack of calibration.

 

Calibration logVehicle owners ticketed by Maryland speed cameras may find relief after one motorist earlier this month discovered how to beat the system. Peggy Lucero began her legal battle after Affiliated Computer Services accused her of speeding in Gaithersburg on Saturday, November 21, 2009. She did not believe the citation was accurate.

 

"I was alleged to have been driving 45 MPH," Lucero told TheNewspaper. "I have been driving for over four decades and never have received a speeding ticket -- by a human or by a camera -- on the East or West coasts where I have lived. I called up the city of Gaithersburg police and asked a few questions about the camera. A few days later I had more questions and called and asked further questions. I wasn't receiving consistent answers, and this began to trouble me."