June 12, 200817 yr In the developed world, we're barely feeling the pinch from rising fuel prices. In the developing world, it's getting chaotic! Why isn't our mainstream media reporting this? Is the developed world next?? Don't believe me there is chaos? Read this article and more important, you have to check out these pictures at: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23494001-details/Riot+police+go+in+to+break+up+Spanish+truckers'+fuel+protests+as+fury+over+spiralling+costs+spreads+around+the+world/article.do Gridlocked cities, empty shelves and bloodshed as fury at soaring costs spreads around the world Last updated at 12:39pm on 12.06.08 Worldwide protests over the rising price of fuel escalated today, with the Philippines presidential palace besieged by lorries, fishermen burning their boats in Thailand, and Spanish petrol stations running dry as hauliers blockade major roads. Violence has already claimed lives of lorry drivers on either side of the dispute, while one haulier was nearly burned to death in his cab by strikers. Hundreds of lorries and minibuses blocked roads in Manila leading to Malacanang Palace today to demand the lifting of a 12 per cent sales tax on fuel. Petrol prices there have risen about 24 per cent this year. ...... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 12, 200817 yr One of the challenges is that much of the developing world still uses subsidized fuel rather than taxed fuel. As nations back off their subsidies, things get very ugly. China, India, Thailand, Venezuela, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and (Mexico - I think) all subsidize the cost of fuel, whereas the West taxes its fuel to varying degrees.
June 12, 200817 yr One of the challenges is that much of the developing world still uses subsidized fuel rather than taxed fuel. As nations back off their subsidies, things get very ugly. China, India, Thailand, Venezuela, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and (Mexico - I think) all subsidize the cost of fuel, whereas the West taxes its fuel to varying degrees. America is weird. We tax gasoline AND we subsidize oil production, in part to create the feedback loop to pay for more roads and nurture a healthy oil industry. Much of our oil subsidies is through federal tax policy affecting oil industry corporations... percentage depletion allowance, nonconventional fuel production credit, immediate expensing of E&D, enhanced oil recovery credit, foreign income deferral, accelerated depreciation allowances and so on. For more information, see.... http://www.icta.org/doc/Real%20Price%20of%20Gasoline.pdf "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 13, 200817 yr Christ! And if oil prices continue to escalate, the real battle will be over the last drop of oil -- and it's something that can happen in the United States. We are so addicted to oil that any major spike (I mean $10-50 per barrel) can cause chaos.
June 13, 200817 yr http://www.icta.org/doc/Real%20Price%20of%20Gasoline.pdf Thanks! I was looking for this exact information yesterday.
June 13, 200817 yr Especially since the oil companies can't make new oil supplies magically appear. For such a long time, we've come to expect to have our demand satisfied when we need it satisfied. And what happens when 500 million people around the world who use to want to oil has since grown to 3 billion? Yet supplies aren't growing? As for why some people won't take the bus, ride a scooter, bike, walk etc.... For many, they can't. A recent poll showed that only 22 percent of us have transit available for our work trips. Many of us live in suburbs where you can't walk to anything other than more houses in less than 10-20 minutes. Others may not be able bodied, and still more may simply be lazy. The kind you see taking elevator to the second floor even though they are physically able of taking the stairs.... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 13, 200817 yr The kind you see taking elevator to the second floor even though they are physically able of taking the stairs.... I might yell at someone before long for doing this. Especially the people in my building who are going to the gym 1 floor below them and still take the elevator. Anyway, the other problem is not only do people live in the suburbs, a lot of jobs are in the suburbs too. I live downtown and its possible to take the RTA to work, but adds about 20 minutes to get to my suburban office location. If the blue line would just extend another 2 miles...
June 13, 200817 yr The kind you see taking elevator to the second floor even though they are physically able of taking the stairs.... I might yell at someone before long for doing this. Especially the people in my building who are going to the gym 1 floor below them and still take the elevator. Anyway, the other problem is not only do people live in the suburbs, a lot of jobs are in the suburbs too. I live downtown and its possible to take the RTA to work, but adds about 20 minutes to get to my suburban office location. If the blue line would just extend another 2 miles... I take it you work on Chagrin Blvd then... My fiance takes the blue line to the end and then hops on the #5 bus, and it drops her off right in front of her office. At first she didn't like it because it took 45-50 minutes as opposed to 25-35 if she drove. But once she started doing it and realizing that she was never caught in traffic, that she could relax, read take a nap, whatever... now she's all about it and takes it daily.
June 13, 200817 yr A very good overview of the impacts of higher fuel prices by Business First Columbus: http://columbus.bizjournals.com/columbus/stories/2008/06/16/story2.html Friday, June 13, 2008 Pain of gas prices spreading through area Business First of Columbus Janet Adams | Business First Prices have been climbing toward that milestone at gasoline stations in Central Ohio since mid-May. While consumers and businesses struggled with $3-a-gallon gas last summer, they may have reached a tipping point at $4 - a level that promises to change behavior in ways heretofore resisted. "Businesses are responding in 1,001 different ways," said Stephen Holland, an economist and contributor to the Energy Journal, a publication of the International Association for Energy Economics in Cleveland. "We realize we're not going back to $1-per-gallon gas, but hopefully if everyone does their part ... those little things start to add up." More at link above:
June 14, 200817 yr Gas prices fuel jump in Midwest Consumer Price Index Business Courier of Cincinnati http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2008/06/09/daily57.html?surround=lfn
June 16, 200816 yr One way to handle gas prices: Move More people are looking to live closer to work and shopping, and find relocating saves them hundreds of dollars a month in gas. NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- It may seem a bit drastic, but more and more people are taking what is perhaps the ultimate step in cutting gas prices: They're moving. Peaches Stevens used to rent an old farm house in southern Indiana. She loved the setting, but her job as a high school science teacher was 62 miles to the north. More at: http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/16/news/economy/gas_moving/index.htm "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 16, 200816 yr Gee, what a novel thought. It's like driving into Allentown, Pennsylvania and seeing all of the sprawl that is now associated with the region. Interstate 78, constructed as a bypass of the original U.S. Route 22 in 1989, is seeing level-of-service ratings of C to F during most of the daytime hours. Cars (and trucks) clog it during most of the day, a lot of them commuters to the New York City metro area. You know where the housing prices dropped the most? The suburbs of Allentown and many of the far-flung suburbs of the NYC metro area. Number one reason? High gasoline prices.
June 16, 200816 yr ^If gas ever gets low again or once we find a cheap alternative we'll be back at square one and then sprawl will be worse than ever.
June 16, 200816 yr Hopefully it takes long enough to happen that we will have reinvested in more responsible forms of transportation and the government has divested much of its interest in roadways. And hopefully they also will learn from their mistakes the last time.
June 17, 200816 yr Petrol prices pinch U.S. Postal Service Wire Features 22 hours ago By RANDOLPH E. SCHMID Associated Press WASHINGTON -- Soccer moms and commuters aren't the only ones feeling the bite of rising fuel costs -- every time the price of gasoline goes up a penny it costs the Postal Service $8 million. "We are definitely feeling the pressure," Deputy Postmaster General Patrick R. Donahoe told The Associated Press. Transportation cost the post office $6.5 billion in 2007, $500 million more than the year before. The post office operates the largest civilian fleet of vehicles in the country -- 215,000 motor vehicles -- and also faces rising costs for fuel from its contract carriers including truckers and airlines. ARTICLE CONTINUES... http://www.the-review.com/news/article/3949112
June 17, 200816 yr ^If gas ever gets low again or once we find a cheap alternative we'll be back at square one and then sprawl will be worse than ever. Doubt it. Sprawl creates such an incredible, insatiable demand on the Earth's natural resources that sprawl cannot be sustained for very long. Even if we find a way to use the most abundant source of energy -- sunlight -- in an efficient way, there is still a limit of raw materials with which we can make solar panels. And we don't build more homes out of unlimited resources. Nor do we build roads from unlimited resources. Nor do we construct sewers from limitless resources, or shopping centers, or more and more and more.... At some point price of a natural resource rises to a level which restrains demand from exceeding a naturally sustainable limit. Just because we want it, doesn't mean it can be supplied. See my economist/peak oil jokes I posted a few minutes ago in the peak oil thread. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 17, 200816 yr A press release from the AFL-CIO in Cleveland...... Contact: Mike Gillis 216-533-8542 Outraged Cleveland Area AFL-CIO Working Families Protest Record High Gas Prices as National Average Reaches Four Dollars Protestors will call on Bush and McCain to denounce their support of Big Oil CLEVELAND, OHIO -- On Tuesday, June 17th, AFL-CIO working families will protest outside a gas station in Cleveland, Ohio to decry out-of-control gas prices, saying they’re choking off the American dream. They will assert that President Bush is too cozy with big oil companies and has done nothing to check soaring gas prices. They will call on President Bush and Senator John McCain to boost the economy and invest in jobs and energy independence rather than spending billions on the Iraq war - - a war that’s benefitting the oil industry. They will also call on Bush and McCain to end their support for tax breaks for big oil. The average price of gas hit $4 last week, up from $1.47 the week President Bush took office. The participants will hold signs that say “Bush & McCain love Big Oil” and condemn McCain’s proposed support for tax breaks for Big Oil. Pointing out that McCain has received twice as much money from Big Oil as any Democratic candidate, the group will demand that McCain honor working people’s interests, not those of the oil industry. McCain’s tax plan would give an additional $3.8 billion in tax cuts to the five largest American oil companies. Similar events are happening across the country. In total, there are 12 protests happening across Ohio as part of an AFL-CIO campaign to call on solutions to the record high gas prices. WHO: Cleveland AFL-CIO working families WHAT: Protest Outside Gas Station WHERE: BP Station near corner of Chester and E. 30th WHEN: 3:15 PM on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 “McCain Revealed” is an AFL-CIO national campaign to expose Sen. John McCain's economic record and plans to continue the failed Bush economic agenda, and to generate public pressure on him to support policies that advance working families’ interests. To learn more, go to www.mccainrevealed.org. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 18, 200816 yr So, nothing new in this article, really. They're discussing the impact of both boomers' and 'millenials' (that's a new one for me) desire to live in a more urban environment and their ability to push the needle in the direction of more TOD type development. They specifically speak to Pasadena, which I've been to and can vouch for as a fantastic community. Very walkable, and just generally beautiful. They also go over some of the hurdles still in place, specifically financing for new development, and people's emotional connection to cars. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121366811790479767.html?mod=hps_us_mostpop_viewed Suburbs a Mile Too Far for Some Demographic Changes, High Gasoline Prices May Hasten Demand for Urban Living By JONATHAN KARP June 17, 2008; Page A18 Abandoning grueling freeway commutes and the ennui of San Fernando Valley suburbs, Mike Boseman recently found residential refuge in this Southern California city. His apartment building straddles a light-rail line, which the 25-year-old insurance broker rides to and from work in Los Angeles.
June 18, 200816 yr Personal vehicles are likely to not go away. How they are powered will have to change.
June 18, 200816 yr Video - Ditching the burbs: http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?cl=8374760
June 18, 200816 yr I have to say I think it's funny about the people who will be protesting at the gas station, and wonder how many of them will arrive in SUVs and from their suburban homes. It is not a guaranteed American birthright from the government to drive a big car and live in a big house in the suburbs. *Disclaimer - I live in a suburb, but I am not complaining about the price of gas.
June 18, 200816 yr "It is not a guaranteed American birthright from the government to drive a big car and live in a big house in the suburbs." No, but it is a guaranteed right for a kid to have an education and implicit in that is a good education. Right now, the suburbs are far more apt to provide that than city schools.
June 18, 200816 yr "It is not a guaranteed American birthright from the government to drive a big car and live in a big house in the suburbs." No, but it is a guaranteed right for a kid to have an education and implict in that is a good education. Right now, the suburbs are far more apt to provide that than city schools. That's an interesting thought. I don't know that it's a guaranteed right for a kid to have an education. Obviously that's very desirable, but I don't know if it's a guaranteed right. But from a chicken-egg perspective, I don't think people moved to the suburbs originally specifically because of schools. I don't pretend to know all the reasons people fled, but I would think school is only a small part of it. There are actually a lot of people in the suburbs who don't have kids, but want a decent sized yard or wanted a bigger house or a big garage to have parties in or whatever. No?
June 18, 200816 yr Video - Ditching the burbs: http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?cl=8374760 That was a good report. I would like to have seen the city list read: Denver, Charlotte, Cleveland... A hurdle here in Cleveland is the foreclosure crisis is more predominent in the city than it is in the suburbs. Suburban housing in Cleveland is generally more expensive than it is in the city so people aren't moving to the suburbs for cheaper housing then driving to work 30 miles like they might in LA. They move to the suburbs b/c that might be where their job is or they'd rather be in a specific school district.
June 18, 200816 yr "It is not a guaranteed American birthright from the government to drive a big car and live in a big house in the suburbs." No, but it is a guaranteed right for a kid to have an education and implict in that is a good education. Right now, the suburbs are far more apt to provide that than city schools. That's an interesting thought. I don't know that it's a guaranteed right for a kid to have an education. Obviously that's very desirable, but I don't know if it's a guaranteed right. It is the law that every child be provided with a public education.
June 18, 200816 yr "I don't know that it's a guaranteed right for a kid to have an education. Obviously that's very desirable, but I don't know if it's a guaranteed right." Check out http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0112617.html I'm sure you can go to findlaw, google, or even wikipedia for an updated list, but this is a snapshot. "But from a chicken-egg perspective, I don't think people moved to the suburbs originally specifically because of schools. I don't pretend to know all the reasons people fled, but I would think school is only a small part of it." I presume white flight is the biggest reason for forming suburbs. "There are actually a lot of people in the suburbs who don't have kids, but want a decent sized yard or wanted a bigger house or a big garage to have parties in or whatever. No?" Sure, why not.
June 18, 200816 yr But the protestors are not saying, "We have a right to send our kids to suburban schools and that's why we deserve to live out here," they are saying "gas is too expensive and the government has to fix it."
June 18, 200816 yr Finally! We're talking about the schools. We touched on this before in the "Ahh, the sprawl of it all" thread: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,7292.msg282992.html#msg282992
June 18, 200816 yr You also have to see that this gas shock has really sucker punched everyone. I doubt suburbanites moved into their homes with even suspicions that gas would jump 30% in one year or that energy would DOUBLE. If you add to that the crumpling housing market, where people have no choice but to hold on to lemons, credit crunches, and rising food prices, then it's clear that a lot of these suburbanites and exburbanites are just stuck. The rich can afford it and the poor generally don't need to drive 45 minutes to work so the middle class and in particular lower middle class gets hit the hardest. Who woud have thought gas would more or less double in the last 5 years, that oil would increase 6x (not 100% sure on these numbers btw). Gas is too expensive (its increase rates are too rapid) and since we don't have the kind rail system they have in Europe, what can a suburbanite do but ride it out?? Also, the market is unfortunately NOT correcting itself, which means that we may need some kind of government intervention. I mean, how the hell does oil go up $2 on news that Saudi Arabia is going to pump more oil. How does that make sense???
June 18, 200816 yr btw, I just noticed under my name it says 408'-Kettering Tower. What does that mean?
June 18, 200816 yr I agree, it isn't what many people expected and there are a lot of people who are in lower incomes who are getting hit pretty hard. It is tough all over the country right now. It's a recession. However, if you compare what's going on now to, say, choices people made in the great depression, I think there is a lot more belt-tightening that the average suburban family could do but doesn't WANT to which could make big differences in their finances, while maintaining their house and school system. Most people are living greatly to excess, spending a lot of money on going out, vacations that they "deserve," new clothing every season whether you need it or not, expensive shoes, throwing things out and buying new instead of fixing them, etc. Something as small as hanging your laundry out instead of drying it, running your dishwasher after 8pm (and only when it's full) and switching to CFCs in your house (among other changes) can make a big difference in one's electric bill but you still hear "well, those CFCs produce such UGLY light!" When was the last time you knew anyone to take a pair of shoes to a shop to be repaired instead of buying new ones? Or sewing on all new buttons when existing ones fall off or break or sewing a hole shut in a shirt or fixing a zipper. Almost nobody does this in my social circle, I dont' know about yours. I use these as select examples to illustrate that it's not just about the price of gas, it's about changing people's lifestyles to accomodate a very down-turned economy and people's unwillingness to do so. Combined with the "freedom" to spend that credit cards provide, it's a dangerous combination. I think without credit cards many of those people woudln't be eating out all the time, buying such expensive groceries and retail goods, etc.
June 18, 200816 yr I've been reading for the past five years a number of books from petroleum geologists, energy economists and others who have predicted EXACTLY what we're seeing today. It's been almost creepy how exact the predictions have been -- and they lamented how clueless most Americans are to the problem. I've also been writing about some of this in my Sun News columns since 2005. Armed with that information, over the past several years I've converted my condo's primary heating system from natural gas to electricity, bought a bicycle, began looking for jobs that are in the city, began reading about urban agriculture, paying down debts while investing in commodity tracking funds which emphasize the price of oil as a primary tracking indicator. What we're seeing is just the start of what's to come. The predictions are based on some pretty elementary assumptions, supply-demand issues, and mathematical models. It's not hard to see what's coming, if you shed the predisposition of looking back in history to determine what is ahead, and also not let your hopes and desires of what "should" happen color your measuring of what will happen, or what is likely to happen. Of course, there are some things that cannot be predicted, such as the responses of such a wide variety of people, or how politicians and big business will seek to manipulate people to follow them. Here's some of the books that were helpful to me to understand what's coming. At first, you get depressed reading it. Then you realize that you're now more fortunate than most who haven't read these books.... 'The End of Oil: On the Edge of a Perilous New World' By Paul Roberts http://books.google.com/books?id=rsmRY6SfpvUC&dq=the+end+of+oil+roberts&pg=PP1&ots=FBPiQ7Ze6o&sig=9W4a1s5jAb4uvj70u6yqryGQbZc&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3DThe%2BEnd%2Bof%2BOil,%2BRoberts&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPA10,M1 'The Long Emergency: Surviving the Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-First Century' By James Howard Kunstler http://books.google.com/books?id=zC2OMovDiC4C&dq=the+long+emergency+james+howard+kunstler&pg=PP1&ots=3ZU9H3r49_&sig=pIVMxWofKoH9Fs79p4shkol0LP8&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3DThe%2BLong%2BEmergency,%2BJames%2BHoward%2BKunstler&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPA271,M1 'Hubbert's Peak: The Impending World Oil Shortage' By Kenneth Deffeyes http://books.google.com/books?id=fgDBgqhR_lsC&dq=hubbert%27s+peak+deffeyes&pg=PP1&ots=Xp1cQNaO9j&sig=uUm5XyoUHRbB0slmWW8OGx6_qDc&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3DHubbert%2527s%2BPeak,%2BDeffeyes&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail 'Twilight in the Desert: The Coming Saudi Oil Shock and the World Economy' By Matthew Simmons http://www.amazon.com/Twilight-Desert-Coming-Saudi-Economy/dp/047173876X http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/research.aspx?Type=msspeeches That ought to get you started! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 18, 200816 yr A buddy of mine just built a new house in a new subdivision. I asked him why he chose to live there and it was all about the schools. In fact, he specifically excluded a certain SUBURBAN school district in favor of an EXURBAN one. The city schools were not even in the question. He also wanted a new house rather than an existing one, and a big yard. So, I would agree that schools are a major factor. Compare the price of a private school and commuting, and for most people the additional commuting cost is offset by the cost savings in a suburban public school.
June 18, 200816 yr A very good story from tonight's NBC Nightly News: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/#25246262
June 19, 200816 yr Yesterday, I was on the #6 on Euclid and I was blown away how crowded that bus was. Today, I was driving up West 117th at the Lakewood/Cleveland line and I noticed there was lots of bicycles. So I began counting them. I saw 14 in the three-mile stretch where I was counting, and I missed the ones that caused me start counting. Never seen that many bikes. Yep, I hate those high gas prices. ;) "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 19, 200816 yr It is these suburban school districts that rely almost entirely school buses to pick up students that are going to be screwed. City schools could shift back to neighborhood walkable schools far more quickly than most suburban systems, especially those with middle and high schools campuses. Ex-urban school districts don't really exist, they are usually rural districts that have gained students due to home building.
June 19, 200816 yr ^^I'm seeing lots and lots of motorcycles. ^ I'll bet many of the newer school districts lack the infrastructure to allow kids to walk to school, speaking, of course, of safe intersections and sidewalks.
June 19, 200816 yr June 19, 2008 Op-Ed Contributor Sue OPEC By THOMAS W. EVANS The President of the United States has the power to attack, and perhaps destroy, the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries, the illegal cartel that has driven the price of oil over $130 per barrel. This can be accomplished without invasion or bombing. No special legislation is needed. The president need simply allow the states to seek relief in the Supreme Court under our antitrust laws. The oil ministers of the OPEC countries meet periodically to set production quotas for the cartel’s members and in the process establish an artificially high price for crude oil. Under our antitrust laws, this is illegal. Two years ago, Amy Myers Jaffe, an energy expert at Rice University, estimated that the real production cost was $15 a barrel, at a time when the price was approaching $60. Recently, an OPEC spokesman said the price could be $70 a barrel — a little more than half the current price — if speculation and manipulation could be eliminated. Full op-ed at: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/19/opinion/19evans.html?th&emc=th
June 19, 200816 yr This comments on how city's with rail will survive and thrive in the next 20 years. http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?cl=8374760
June 19, 200816 yr It is these suburban school districts that rely almost entirely school buses to pick up students that are going to be screwed. City schools could shift back to neighborhood walkable schools far more quickly than most suburban systems, especially those with middle and high schools campuses. Ex-urban school districts don't really exist, they are usually rural districts that have gained students due to home building. Heh heh, I always like it that when a school system is trying to pass a levy that they threaten to take away bus service for kids that live less than two miles from the school. Those kids shouldn't have bus service anyway (past 3rd grade). But, of course the idiots that designed the "neighborhoods" didn't put in sidewalks half the time!
June 19, 200816 yr It's not hard to see what's coming, if you shed the predisposition of looking back in history to determine what is ahead... Edmund Burke seems to disagree. Just curious if you ever read anything with an opposing viewpoint. I tend to believe there is ample oil left in more expensive forms but I am delighted that oil prices are creating demand for alternate technology and resources. Is this foolish? I thought Gov. Schwarzenegger's decision yesterday is well aligned with the philosophy I espouse: "There is ample yet increasingly expensive oil left in the ground. Ultimately drilling for more will not be the solution. Weaning our dependence on oil is." Especially in the USA.
June 19, 200816 yr Edmund Burke seems to disagree. Just curious if you ever read anything with an opposing viewpoint. It's extremely difficult to live in the United States and not hear anything but the opposing viewpoint. Watch television, read the newspapers, browse the Internet. The oppressive group-think is overbearing, to the point that I'm concerned that Americans have become a bunch of zombies who have become programmed to buy as much crap as they can afford, and even buy lots of things they can't. And Edmund Burke doesn't apply to my consideration of history in this regard. Rather, I prefer to quote Winston Churchill (though I believe the quote is older), that the generals are always fighting the current war in the way the last one was fought. In this energy crisis, we are fighting it the same way we fought the energy crises of the 1970s. But those were geopolitical in nature. This time it's geological. No measure of political pandering, or saber-rattling or negotiations or even drilling can stop this energy crisis. The only way you can stop a geologically induced energy crisis is to use less oil than what's available for production. And if oil is depleting, which it soon will be if it hasn't already, then we have to reduce our consumption faster than oil production is declining. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 19, 200816 yr Where a large vehicle makes a stop mid-slope so that it doesn't build up so much momentum that it can't stop by the time it gets to the bottom of the slope. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 19, 200816 yr How is Germany "feeling it"? By cutting back, big time...... http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,560681,00.html 06/19/2008 NEW BP REPORT Germany Records World's Biggest Cut in Energy Use in 2007 A new annual energy consumption report by the oil giant BP paints a split picture of the world: rapid rises in emerging economies, a smaller fall in the EU. Energy-conscious Germany emerges as the star environmental performer. When it comes to tackling climate change, Germany's government seems to be making a serious effort. On Wednesday, the German cabinet signed off an ambitious package of measures (more...), aimed at slashing the country's CO2 emissions by 40 percent relative to 1990s levels by 2020. German Environment Minister Sigmar Gabriel called the package, which reflects Germany's ambition to take a lead in the fight against climate change, "the largest worldwide." More at link above: "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
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