Definitely a little scary that people will behave this way over gas.  Do you think they would get into fights if Allstate just gave them $30 rebate checks? 

 

BTW...nice avatar David!

^ I don't think $30 is worth this, either.

^Throw all the childish epithets you want--it doesn't change reality.  The irony is, it's the "real Americans" in their homes-on-wheels that are funding the very same people who are killing our soldiers (and civilians) in Iraq. 

 

 

So how, exactly, is that related to rising fuel prices? 

Are you 14 years old or something?  You reason like a child. 

 

It's real easy.  Since you drive a Suburban, you buy a lot more gasoline than you would for a passenger car, to accomplish the same tasks.  Gasoline is derived from crude oil, which in the U.S., is mostly imported.  Most oil imports are from Middle Eastern nations, Nigeria, and Venezuela--nations not exactly friendly toward us these days.  Many of these nations either directly sponsor, or are openly accommodating to, terrorist activity.  If you follow the chain, your money ends up in the hands of terrorists.  Simple buy-and-sell economics, really.

 

But, you know, don't let your ego get in the way of the truth or anything.

The oil to fuel my vehicle exists, I can afford it and am willing to pay for it. Is this a great country or what!

 

Can I get back to you on that?

I gave up my car entirely.  How's that for a start?

 

I didn't say "pacify the terrorists".  I just don't think it's such a bright idea to keep throwing money their way--you know, money they use to buy arms (to use against us), take flying lessons, buy plane tickets to the U.S.  You get the idea.  My point was, DanB, that you *choose* to drive a Suburban.  I find it incredibly hard to believe you *need* such a vehicle for personal use. 

 

 

I would stop driving it today, if you could guarantee that terrorist activities will stop immediately.

 

That's like saying, "I didn't vote in the last election because nobody would guarantee me that my favorite candiate would win if I did." 

 

DanB - 0

DaninDC - 1

That's like saying, "I didn't vote in the last election because nobody would guarantee me that my favorite candiate would win if I did." 

 

I love creative metaphors. As for the rest of what's happening in this thread, take your :box: to a dark alley someplace.

Buried at the bottom of this AP article, we see our first glimmer of political hope...

 

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060713/oil_prices.html?.v=23

 

With U.S. oil companies such as Exxon Mobil Corp. and Chevron Corp. earning record amounts, some members of Congress have proposed taxing "windfall" profits in order to finance energy assistance programs for the poor, but the idea does not have wide support.

 

The energy-policy debate in Washington right now centers around efforts to repeal the ban on offshore drilling and to fix a law that allows oil and natural-gas companies to avoid billions of dollars of royalty payments on offshore drilling leases.

 

Critics say Congress has failed in its approach to deal with soaring energy costs because it has not given as much attention to curbing demand as it has to adding supplies, such as a hotly debated proposal to open an Alaskan wildlife refuge to oil drilling.

 

"We too often forget that the United States is far and away the biggest consumer of oil," said Tyson Slocum, an energy expert at Public Citzen, a Washington-based consumer watchdog. Slocum said the country needs to invest more in public transportation and to sharply increase automobile fuel-economy standards.

KJP or Brewmaster if we were to convert to electrical energy for transportation, public transit and automobiles, what would be the ramifications as far as pollution? Would fossil fuels be required for creating the amount of electrical energy needed?? If so, would it atleast be reduced to a level that our environment could manage it?

Congress will be the last people on earth to acknowledge the real solution.  These are the people, after all, who drove en masse across the street in SUVs to the Exxon for a photo op to fight $3.35/gal gasoline. 

High gas prices actually had a strange affect on me: we went from a 1-car household to a 2-car household.

 

With gas over $2.50/gal, it became too expensive for the wife to drop me off at work everyday, and even with me keeping the car at work some days and leaving the little woman at home with the kids sans transportation, there were as many days where she needed the car for errands.

 

We did the math on cutting the round-trips in half, and it more than justified a second car. Granted, we bought a used '98 Civic that gets 29/36 MPH, but in order to survive, we had to take a great step backward into multiple-car ownership.

 

Over all, however, we're using less gas per month, and for me, this is a victory because, as it's been noted in several friendly exchanges here, gas helps the "tare-rists".*

 

Now mind you, this second car would have been entirely unnecessary had our major metropolitan area (at the time, Detroit) had a thing called practical mass transit.

 

Now, here in Columbus, rail has been adandoned again. Criminy. What a phenomenal setback.

 

Question: Will the frog in the pan of water on the burner ever notice how damn hot it's getting?

 

Answer: Frog legs anyone?

 

 

 

 

* Presidential pronunciation.

KJP or Brewmaster if we were to convert to electrical energy for transportation, public transit and automobiles, what would be the ramifications as far as pollution? Would fossil fuels be required for creating the amount of electrical energy needed?? If so, would it atleast be reduced to a level that our environment could manage it?

 

It would be hard to imagine generating electricity in this country without using coal.  Right now, coal makes up about half of all electricity generated and we have an estimated 250 year supply left.  I wouldn't expect us to ignore that reserve anytime soon. 

 

The whole, "long tailpipe" theory claims that by using electric cars, trains, etc... you're just displacing pollution from tailpipes to smokestacks.  This is only partially true.  First, about 30% of our electricity is generated from what I would call pollution-free sources of energy (hydro, wind, solar, and nuclear).  Second, ground level pollution (tailpipe) is more detrimental to human health than high level pollution (smoke stack).  Most smokestacks are over 200 ft. tall and some are well over 1000 ft.  Third, even coal plants are much more efficient than internal combustion engines.  Newer natural gas fired plants are even more efficient at converting carbon to energy than the coal plants.  This results in a net decrease in pollution.

 

Next generation coal plants are much cleaner than those of the 50's and 60's.  Coal Gasification technology has the potential to create a near-zero emission plant (google: FutureGen).

 

Basically, I'd much prefer a few long, energy efficient tailpipes that run on domestic energy sources to millions of short ones that run on imported oil.

we sold our 2nd car. We decided to get a scooter in it's place, as both of us have unpredictable appointments with our jobs, making the bus difficult. The problem is we fought about who got to ride the scooter to work (plus I am a bad back seat driver), so we ended up with 2-all covered by proceeds of the sale of the car.  I went TWO WEEKS on a gallon of gas, although I live and work in the same area. I only drove the car once in the last 2 weeks for a far flung suburban appointment. insurance is not unreasonable, and it has a 4 stroke engine which makes it easy on the environment and yields great gas milage. In the winter we will be trading off car and bus and maybe utilizing city wheels , but for now this is cheaper than the bus to operate. My spouse works at CSU, and covered parking is free for 2 wheels (sadly for car it is not, and he does not get those great  free bus passes that students do) . Why it took so long for these things to catch on I do not know, I mean look  at Europe and Asia! Of course they do not have the ratio of menacing SUV's and innerstates that we do. here are the additions to the family (the cream and the black)

 

 

How much do those cost to buy? Can you also give an idea as to monthly insurance costs?

How much do those cost to buy? Can you also give an idea as to monthly insurance costs?

 

the 125 cc,  what I have, was 2499.00, and with all tag, tax, title etc, plus 100.00 discount for the first one b/c we mentioned a GP Chronicle ad they had running at the time, ended up a little under 2900.00 out the door (on the second one we were also given 100 off as "repeat customers" ). 2 year parts AND LABOR full warranty.  It is called the Genuine Buddy (imported by same folks that do the Stella), automatic, easy to drive. Insurance is 153.00 per YEAR. this covers any damage you cause to persons, property, , passenger etc, uninsured motorist,as well as coverage if it is wrecked or stolen  etc. $100.00 deductable.  the only thing it does not cover is your personal injuries (I have medical), this jumps it up another 250.00 per year. I got it thru Allstate for a better deal than my car carrier, Gieco. I happened to meet an Allstate  agent at the scooter shop! If you ever got to the point of purchase, I could pass on his name. I am new to scootering but the buz it this is a great quality bike. It is so ridiculously fun, you cannot imagine. here are some links if you want to check it out:

http://genuinescooters.com/

http://www.clevelandscooters.com/  (our local scooter shop on w.25th)

forum: Modernbuddy.com

 

there is also a 50cc coming out (less costly), but these are 2 stroke so not as eco friendly and limit you as to where you go due to power limitations.

 

You need a motorcycle license to drive them (I have the "temps" now,have not taken the road test, I will do that as part of a safety class I am taking)

email me if you want more info.

 

 

Edit: state farm not allstate!

And 125 mpg! 

 

I'm 6'4...is that a little too big for one of these?

And 125 mpg! 

 

I'm 6'4...is that a little too big for one of these?

I think it has more to do with your inseam. On one of links I posted there was a review from a guy that was 6' 3''  and he fit great. you probably have a genuine dealer in your city, and you can go sit on one and see.

Those are some cool little bikes, but if I got one I'd have to make a compromise with my male ego size complex. I wonder if they make them any bigger. I'm looking at an electric one on ebay that goes 42 mph but it needs to be charged every 51 miles :-/ 125 mph is just..amazing. I can't imagine.

^ it is 125 cc, not 125 mph (or maybe you meant 125 MPG?) I think the 125 cc are going to come in at 100 mpg after broken in. Be careful about electric scooters, I do not think they are street legal, you better check with the BMV before buying so you are not stuck with something you can only take on the sidewalk.  I could make some inappropriate jokes about being self assured enough to drive a scooter. I'll put it this way, if you can drive one of these with your head held high you are saying you have nothing to be ashamed of. Now the guy with the crotch rocket, corvette, cigarette boat on the other hand... as a women, we think there are, well, short comings, assocated with the guys that drive these.  please don't make me explain.

I meant 125 mpg, not mph lol sorry.

I'm surprised they're that expensive ($2900). I'm hurting financially now, so a purchase of that magnitude is out of the question. My car is paid off, and while I'm paying much more in gas and insurance to drive it, those are small chunks I can handle. And I don't think a lender (to buy the scooter) would touch me with the credit card debt eating up all my equity anyway. Sad that I'm too poor to save money....

^ if only our climate were a little more forgiving, we could forgo the cars completely. I am hoping that the scooter will save wear and tear on the car. The car only gets driven once a week now on average. We don't do the big grocery store trip, b/c I work across from the WS market, I shop every other day. even so the things fit a load of groceries. the 50cc is more affordable. who knows maybe when/if gas hits $5 a gallon, none of us will have a choice anymore.  I'll have to bundle up and drive it all winter. 

Have we talked about the emissions numbers on a Vespa? Good? Bad?

I am not sure if they are 2 or 4 stroke. 2 stroke has more emmissions issues. I know the Stella's are 2 = bad. eitrher way though you are burning less fuel than a car, that has got to be good though. 

I know that a 2-stroke gas mower engine pumps out 40-cars-worth of emissions, but that's mainly because there's no real regulatory body overseeing gas mower emissions. (By the way, I have a virulent hatred for gas-powered lawncare gear. I'll start a thread on that soon enough).

 

I'm wondering where you draw the usefulness-line between a Vespa and a bicycle? I'm guessing you show up less sweaty riding a Vespa. Is a Vespa safer? Put another way, do other drivers take a Vespa-rider more seriously than a bicycle rider, or does the "Outta my way pee wee!" attitude still hold?

 

But danger and pollution aside, one advantage of riding a Vespa rises above all else:

 

Major cred with the Ska crowd.

In the scooter coolness hierarchy, I am not sure how my scooter holds up against a vesper. now comparing to a bike. I do bike to work to when I do not have spread out appointments or too much to carry. As great as my employer is they don't want to pay me to take extra time to get to appointments. Cars treat scooters poorly too, but it is not nearly has bad as the bike in my opinion. With the scooter you postion your self in a lane to avoid cars lane sharing or passing and try to keep up with traffic. with both scooters and bikes  cars turn in front of you cut you off etc which is scary b/c it could be all over in a second. I have not had a near miss on the scooter yet, but nearly every time I bike there is near death experience it seems.I have taken to riding the sidewalk. I ride a 70's cruiser so it is slowwww. So I do think the scooter is safer than  a bike ON SAME THE ROAD as you would bike. take the scoot on an interstate and all bets are off.  They are so fun, You cannot imagine. I bought it for economy and environment, but had no idea it would be fun to drive.also as far as usefulness my old schwinn cruiser goes 10-15 mph at best, but the scooter can go 65 mph (fastest I have gone is around 40-50)

no expert here, but there are a few comparisons out there on different scooter engine types.  here is one that shows an un-retofitted 2 cycle to be pretty bad, but that 4-cycle competes very well with other modes, besides just mpg.

 

http://www.bajajusa.com/emissions.htm

I ride a Vespa ET4. Sold my car, and ride year round. A mild winter here in Cincinnati meant I only missed a few days due to weather. Cars aren't typically malicious as with bikes, it's just that drivers are tuned into seeing other cars, so they'll look right through you. Riding is a much more mindful experience than driving, since you have to be much more attentive and aware.

 

A determining factor was that it was a 4 stroke. 2 stroke engine development has progressed so they aren't as polluting as they used to be, but that was a non-starter for me. Extremely low emissions -- I'm not sure where it would rate on the EPA emissions level, but I recall being told 20% of the average 4 cylinder car, which is about what that chart reflects.

 

The Buddy looks to be a great bike. I know of a few in town. A very quick 125. Seth from Metro Scooter in Cincinnati is planning on racing his.

Bus ridership, car pooling increase as gas prices rise

 

Souix City Journal

 

DES MOINES, Iowa (AP) -- Hitching a ride is becoming more popular as people try to beat the rising cost of gas.

 

In Des Moines, more people are catching a ride on a bus. In the Iowa City-Cedar Rapids area, more people are choosing to car pool.

 

A similar trend is being seen across the country as people cope with gas prices that are up 68 cents a gallon since July 2005.

 

...

 

More at:

http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2006/07/18/news/iowa/d479e067f69ef3c9862571af0009d12a.txt

I ride a Vespa ET4. Sold my car, and ride year round. A mild winter here in Cincinnati meant I only missed a few days due to weather. Cars aren't typically malicious as with bikes, it's just that drivers are tuned into seeing other cars, so they'll look right through you. Riding is a much more mindful experience than driving, since you have to be much more attentive and aware.

 

A determining factor was that it was a 4 stroke. 2 stroke engine development has progressed so they aren't as polluting as they used to be, but that was a non-starter for me. Extremely low emissions -- I'm not sure where it would rate on the EPA emissions level, but I recall being told 20% of the average 4 cylinder car, which is about what that chart reflects.

 

The Buddy looks to be a great bike. I know of a few in town. A very quick 125. Seth from Metro Scooter in Cincinnati is planning on racing his.

yeah the Buddy is great. Out local scooter shop guy, raced his in the lake erie loop race (all the way around lake for charity fund raiser) and beat every scooter in the class (up to 150) by two hours. completed the journey in something like 12 hours right out of its box. Anyhow I love the thing. I just went to and from a meeting I really did not want to go to, and I smiled all they there, and back. I am very interested to explore winter driving sans snow, ice and road salt. here in cleveland that could be all winter or hardly at all. you just cannot tell.

http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/jul2006/pi20060719_167731.htm?chan=top+news_top+news

 

I can't copy a tidbit of this story, but it's an amusing read.  Especially about the guy who is counting on his bonus to pay off his credit card debt at the pump.  He's got the option of taking the commuter train from Norwalk, Conn to Manhattan, but he says, "At the end of the day, I'd like to be on my own schedule." 

 

Another good quote from the same guy is, "After I fill up I'm probaby upset for awhile, and it passes."  Sounds like an addict to me.

^I thought "addiction" was a great way to describe our relationship with gasoline until Bush started using his "addicted to oil" line. It's the first thing he's said in 6+ years that made any kind of sense and I don't quite know how to react.

 

Credit cards and gasoline. Is there any combination deadlier (or more American) that that?

 

I think the only thing holding people back from really feeling the pain at the pump is the fact that they're just charging it. I went off credit cards last year and it's hard as hell, but at least I'm totally aware of how messed up things are.

 

I've promised myself one little spending rule for when I do eventually (inevitably) start charging things again: never buy anything that won't be there when you've paid it off. Gasoline fails that test with flying colors.

 

Thanks for the article.

never buy anything that won't be there when you've paid it off. Gasoline fails that test with flying colors.

 

Actually, gasoline and an occasional hotel room when attending meets are just about the only things I charge to my (one and only) credit card, and I never let the balance get too high to pay off when the monthly bill comes.  There's no periodic service charge on the card, and if I pay the full balance with each bill, there's no interest.

 

Using my card for pay-at-the-pump helps me avoid standing in line in stations that smell like a blend of mildew, BO and dirty ashtray, waiting for people to decide which lottery tickets they want this time.

^Which is why I still keep a debit card, with National City Rewards, to boot.

 

  ^That agrees with my earlier comment about paying for gasoline.

 

    Am I the only one who fills up the tank when I buy gasoline? It used to be so easy. I filled up the tank and then I paid. Now I have to pay first, pump the gas, and stand in line a second time to get my change. Gas station clerks seem to have a really hard time with this, too. Newspaper articles say that more people are stealing gasoline now that the prices are high. Also, some gas stations would not accept $100 bills or $50 bills. Buying gasoline has turned into a hassle that just wasn't there 3 years ago.

It's funny to actually see someone steal gasoline. I was in Columbus, at a gas station right next to a ramp to get on i270. The guy filled up his truck, then suddenly drove off really fast and the clerk ran outside and into his car and chased him onto the expressway. I don't think it's worth it to leave the station unattended though.

In Virginia, you can lose your license for stealing gasoline.

^Which is why I still keep a debit card, with National City Rewards, to boot.

^^That agrees with my earlier comment about paying for gasoline.

 

Actually, since the debit card is tied to my checking account (actual money), I'm not charging (imaginary money). But the distinction only comes into play if you can't afford to pay off the balance at the end of the month, which I think describes more and more people every day.

 

ADDENDUM: Whoops! Thought I was replying to Robert_1412. However, my comment, nonsequitor as it is, stands (but does not follow).

It's funny to actually see someone steal gasoline. I was in Columbus, at a gas station right next to a ramp to get on i270. The guy filled up his truck, then suddenly drove off really fast and the clerk ran outside and into his car and chased him onto the expressway. I don't think it's worth it to leave the station unattended though.

 

It was worth it to me: "Free gas for all my friends!"

:laugh: Cute!

 

That shows how stupid this gas station attendant was. Geez, even if you catch the guy, by the time you come back, you find four other people have already driven off without paying for their gas! It offers potential for a great scam, if you know the attendant will give chase to a decoy

 

 

:laugh: Cute!

 

That shows how stupid this gas station attendant was. Geez, even if you catch the guy, by the time you come back, you find four other people have already driven off without paying for their gas! It offers potential for a great scam, if you know the attendant will give chase to a decoy

 

Don't some stations hold the cashier responsible for drive-offs, and withhold shortages and theft amounts from his/her pay? The pay, working conditions and hours don't always attract the best and brightest; combine those factors, and it's not hard to see how a cashier can become a vigilante.

 

Surveillance cameras are pretty cheap, especially if you don't need a long-running recording. I think that would be a safer and more effective way to curb no-pays than laying the burden on a cashier who can't afford it.

Yeah, I never understood gas-theft.  How much can it cost to mount a camera that can record license plates?

Actually, customers might not be able to drive off with more gas while the attendant is away, since he has to actuate the pump from a panel behind the counter. Still, it's stupid to drive off and leave the station unattended, unless he thought he had a shot at getting the license plate number of the offender.

Drivers' love of the road grows costly

By Andrea Hopkins Fri Jul 21, 2:18 PM ET

 

ST. LEON, Indiana (Reuters) - Indiana bills itself as "The Crossroads of America" but with gasoline topping $3 a gallon, few here are celebrating their relationship with the road.

 

"High prices affect people out here more than in the city," Jeff Finck, 53, said as he fueled his Chevrolet Suburban at an Exxon station near the border of Indiana, Kentucky and Ohio.

 

"It's 25 miles to our church," he said. "If I need gas it's 6 miles away -- that's a 12-mile round trip. The nearest grocery story is 6 or 7 miles away.

 

...

 

More at:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060721/us_nm/life_gasoline_dc

^Wow.

 

Are we as a nation really THAT stupid?

 

Wow.

 

Just wow.

most of me does not feel bad for people that moved out in the sticks to get away from the hideous city with all its resources and diversity  so they could buy a giant junky house to stuff their f150 or expedition or what have you in it, or put their kids in activities all week long all over town rather than just let them play outside.  so, that said I feel sorry for a lot of lower income people (my brother included) who do home health care (or other such jobs) for a living and have to go from home to home throughout the day, take disabled people to the store etc. they have no choice but to operate their personal vehicles, and mileage reimbursements have not risen to compensate for the gas prices. Also I work in the disabilities field. A lot of group homes are located in the far suburbs off the bus lines. much of the direct care staff lives in the city. they are pd low wages and must commute to the suburbs by personal vehicle  (for now please spare me the uninformed comment they can "find another job", unless you are a poor, uneducated, person yourself who can speak with any authority) . I am actually finding now that I have trouble finding people to work with my clients in the burbs, b/c it is just to expensive for them to get to work. I can only imagine it will get harder as prices rise.

P99, that's a key issue in the regional rail project I'm pushing for the Cleveland - Lorain corridor. One of the most compelling statistics in my latest PowerPoint presentation ( http://members.cox.net/kjprendergast/West%20Shore%20Corridor.pdf - 190k) is that only 8-15 percent of all jobs in the Cleveland-Lorain-Akron metro area are accessible within a 40-minute trip via public transportation. Even if we improve inner-city schools, an educated person lacking a car sits untapped when our ongoing changes in land use keep pushing the jobs farther away from the jobs seekers.

 

But I digress from the fuel price discussion. Go visit the Cleveland-Lorain commuter rail thread in the transportation section if you care to chime in.

^ all so disturbing. we are all doomed on so many levels...