From the 9/7/05 Toledo Blade:

 

 

GRAPH: UT misses enrollment goals

 

Student recruiting falls short of target at University of Toledo

By KIM BATES

BLADE STAFF WRITER

 

Enrollment at the University of Toledo has decreased from last fall despite large-scale efforts over the past year — mainly through recruitment and millions of dollars put toward scholarships — to attract more students to campus.

 

As of yesterday, the university’s enrollment was at 19,201, a 1.5 percent drop of nearly 300 students from the previous year. The figure also fell significantly short of fall, 2003, enrollment of 20,594, which leaders had set as a necessary financial goal when producing a budget that was approved in July.

 

At the area’s two other largest institutions, Bowling Green State University and Owens Community College, growth in enrollment was reported, but with the overall gains slight. Record enrollment was reached again at both schools.

 

At UT, the decrease will have financial implications, though exact numbers aren’t yet known. Contingency plans will be discussed in upcoming weeks, UT Provost Alan Goodridge said. “It’s going to be a significant difference in revenue from what we projected,” Mr. Goodridge said.

 

Full article at http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050907/NEWS21/50907037/-1/NEWS

 

Oftentimes I wonder why we have two large public schools in a relatively small area of Ohio. 

Oftentimes I wonder why we have two large public schools in a relatively small area of Ohio. 

 

Never thought about that, actually.  Interesting.  But then again, Northwest Ohio is basically the size of Metropolitan Dayton, and Dayton has several "large" public schools as well.  But then again, Dayton is in a more populated region.

 

Interesting about Northwest Ohio.

Oftentimes I wonder why we have two large public schools in a relatively small area of Ohio. 

So which one of these is not public?

Cleveland St. Kent St. Youngstown St. Univ. of Akron

^A bit over the top.

 

Ohio definitely has its problems, I won't deny that. But, you make it seem as if we're the third world. 

 

If NW has a population of 1.1 million and has two universities, then why does Cleveland have one with 2 million people?  That is why I think the Toledo area has too many universities. Quite frankly, Kent State is what I would never have created.  That school should have been divided between CSU, Akron and YSU.  Conceptually speaking, that is.

"Unless ... the ore industry in Cleveland, we're fucked."

 

Maybe that one-horse-industry town in that corner of the state is fucked but the last time I checked, Cleveland's economy has substantially diversified. There's a little cluster of buildings between Little Italy and Midtown - we call that University Circle and all the institutions there are growing and drawing people from across the globe to work there. That's just one example. Another is the federal government - not the sexiest of employers but it's a provider of solid paychecks to plenty of people in Greater Cleveland. The legal industry in Cleveland pumps a ton of money into local coffers and I haven't even started with the other employers and institutions that are doing just fine and/or growing along with young entrepeneurs who have made their mark nationally and are staying put in Cleveland because they want to. And yes, some of those places involve the "creative class".

 

I'm sorry but it seems like people don't actually research the realities behind the perceptions but that would require possibly letting go of the jaded views that make us Ohioans so prone to write off our state as "fucked". It's easier to have a pissy outlook on life than try to be informed about the positive things that are happening.

 

Oftentimes I wonder why we have two large public schools in a relatively small area of Ohio. 

 

 

The brain drain is the only thing I feel puts the nail in the coffin for the state of Ohio. Unless the glass industry booms in Toledo, the pork industry in Cincinnati, or the ore industry in Cleveland, we're fucked. Our state still thinks it's 1920 and the economic stagnation is a reflection of that. We just are not producing the kind of creative thinkers that will take us to the next level (and if we do, they get the first ticket out of Ohio). College certainly is not all that (Bill Gates never got a degree), but it helps average people with critical thinking. Some people are going to be successful no matter what, but for the majority, it won't happen without an education. Ohio gets a big fat F here.

 

C-dawg,

 

The Cleveland Clinic, with its growing bank of research jobs, is the largest employer in the region.

 

How does our state "still think its 1920"?

 

Ohio has 13 public universities. Greater Toledo is anywhere from 650,000 to 825,000 (depends where you look and if you count the Michigan suburbs). The Toledo area has two public universities- UT and BG. In comparison, Greater Dayton is anywhere from 850,000 to 1.1 million (also depends where you look and if metro Springfield is counted too). The Dayton area has two public universities as well- Wright State and Miami- both smaller than the Toledo area ones (partly due to the large Catholic UD). Greater Cleveland is anywhere from 2.2 million to 2.9 million (depends where you look and if metro Akron is counted). The Cleveland area has four public universities- CSU, Kent, Akron, and Youngstown. Greater Cincinnati is anywhere from 1.6 million to 2.1 million (depends where you look and if the Kentucky suburbs are counted). They have get this- just one public university- UC! Doesn't make sense, does it? Shouldn't the 13 public schools be more evenly spread throughout the state's population? Why in hell would the Nati area have fewer public universities than the TOL area?

 

Well, you have to remember (regarding Metro Cincinnati) that it has UC, Xavier (Catholic) and Northern Kentucky (which is a Kentucky public school of decent size). So yes, Metro Cincinnati does have 2 (technically, 3; Miami) public universities (as NKY gives in-state tuition to Ohio and Indiana).  Also, I would not count  Youngstown as part of Cleveland's public schools.  Youngstown State can be split and Youngstown is not a part of Metro Cleveland (unless Dayton wants to include The Ohio State University :D).

There's an excellent thread on Ohio's economy called "ABJ: Ohio's economy is losing ground".  It could use some love.  ;)

i think that the problem lies with our elementary education.  We have a lot of people leaving the state for jobs elsewhere.  The brain drain happens because, 1. we have some educated folks, 2. we don't have enough jobs for our youth.

 

My bad about Northern Kentucky. I didn't know they offered in-state tuition to Ohioans.

 

I know about Xavier (it's extremely small- 6,000 students), but Nati has nothing like Owens (few cities do). Owens Community College is the second largest school in the state of Ohio. It has 45,000 students a year!

 

Even with Greater Nati having two, that still makes Toledo's two kind of weird. There are over twice as many people in the Nati area. If you add Miami to Cincy, then I guess you would have to say Dayton only has one. If Cleveland-Akron has three (true Youngstown shouldn't be counted), that means most of Ohio has one large university per million people. Toledo has one large university per 400,000 people plus Owens. I guess it is weird that Toledo has so many colleges. The Medical College of Ohio is also in Toledo.

 

I'm really not sure why the Toledo area has so many schools.

 

Remember, Dayton has Central State, Wilbeforce, Sinclair CC (which is Ohio's largest school community college on a single campus; Owens is between Findlay and Toledo; Tri-CCC is all over Cuyahoga County), Wittenburg, UD, Wright State, Cedarville, blah blah etc.  So Dayton's MSA has two public universities and many other decently size univerities.  Ditto with Cincinnati, Cleveland, and even Columbus.  It seems Toledo only has 4ish?  Which sounds about right for that size; it's interesting that two are public while the third is a community college.

i think that the problem lies with our elementary education.  We have a lot of people leaving the state for jobs elsewhere.  The brain drain happens because, 1. we have some educated folks, 2. we don't have enough jobs for our youth.

 

Amen.  Amen.  And.  Amen.

Ah if you include Toledo area universities the same size as those other ones you listed, the number jumps way up (Lourdes, Mercy, Eastern Michigan, Riverside, Terra, Adrian, Davis, - the list goes on). WAY higher than four universities in the area. There are well over a dozen schools within 40 miles of downtown (seems to be conservative compared to distances you are using for Dayton). It would be pointless to count every little private school, since there's so damn many of them and they are more random in nature. Since when is Cedarville a decently sized university? It is smaller than some high schools at under 3,000 students. It sounds like you are fishing...:wink:

 

Fishing?  When Eastern Michigan and Adrian AREN'T fishing?  Eastern Michigan is in Ypsilanti and Adrian is way near Jackson.  Dayton might as well "fish" to OSU, Ohio U, IUPUI, and freakin' Indiana University.  Sorry, all the univeristies I mentioned are within a 20 minute drive of downtown Dayton; Eastern Michigan and Adrian are NOT 20 minute drives from Toledo, sorry.  I'm not fishin'.

 

There are only a couple sizable privates in the state (UD's about it with 10,000 students and that's still smaller than publics). Btw, I forgot about Eastern Michigan. They should be counted too as Toledo since they allow Ohioans to pay in-state tuition and have a campus in Monroe about 30 miles from downtown. That's much closer than Central State is to Dayton or Bustown.

 

Central State is only 4 miles from Xenia, which is a Dayton "suburb."  Sorry, Eastern Michigan, no.  That's just silly.  It's Detroit.  Hell, count University of Michigan and Wayne State if you need to.

 

Regardless, none of this explains why the Toledo area has the two big publics instead of one. I used to think it was the Michigan thing, but the populations don't work out right now that I think about it. It is quirky. Maybe Ohio figured Toledo would have gotten much larger than it is. It was poised to become the next Chicago in the early 1900's (it still is the 5th largest transportation hub in America). Obviously, it never became the next Chicago, and that could add to the reason UT can't fill their school on top of its academic standing. I guess that's the best theory I can come up with right now.

 

Not really.  Bowling Green, Kent, Miami, and OU are the MAC schools in the state's four corners.  Toledo, Akron, blah blah, who really cares; they are all just state public schools.  Bottom line is that the Toledo area has less "universities" than the rest of the regional cities due to size.  Akron can claim Kent and Akron and both are well inside it's MSA (700,000) and are closer to their respective city than Bowling Green (20 miles away) and UT are to Toledo.  Perhaps it is because of Toledo's lack of "other schools" that the state decided to give it two or simply a reason to go to another part of Ohio.  Though I would've guessed the Toledo area would have another school in its region besides those two.

 

There are only a couple <b>sizable privates</b> in the state (UD's about it with 10,000 students and that's still smaller than publics). Btw, I forgot about Eastern Michigan. They should be counted too as Toledo since they allow Ohioans to pay in-state tuition and have a campus in Monroe about 30 miles from downtown. That's much closer than Central State is to Dayton or Bustown.

 

 

<immaturity>

sizable privates?

</immaturity>

if you read my post, you'd see I was referring to the Eastern Michigan in Monroe. It is not Detroit by any means. It is similar to UT in that it pulls in a shitload of kids from the neighboring state. Even the northern campus has a lot of Ohioans.

 

Now you are counting SATELLITE schools?  Oy vey.

 

Adrian is also about the same distance as some the schools you put for Dayton. I have no idea what you are trying to say other than some rambling about some miniscule private universities no one has heard of (Wittenberg, Cedarville?).

 

Uh...and people down here have heard of ADRIAN and TERRA?  Come on now.  The point is that Dayton has ALOT of schools (small or large, doesn't matter) and that the MSA alone has two public schools (Wright State and Central State) plus a decently sized Catholic school (UD) + proximity to other schools JUST outside the MSA (Miami, Wilmington).  If you are counting satellite schools as your "Toledo MSA" (which Monroe County is still Detroit, sorry), then oy vey.

 

Of course Toledo has fewer universities than the other regional cities (I'm assuming you mean Cleveland, Cincy, Columbus, Dayton), BUT having two big publics when Cleveland has three seems odd. That's all I and some others are saying. Toledo has fewer privates than the other cities, but I don't think that affected the decision to have UT and BG built, because Toledo has more of the community college and technical schools.

 

Not really.  Cleveland has a plethora of other schools + a large contingent at The Ohio State University.  So no, it's not weird for Cleveland to "only" have three.

 

And now that I think about it, if Miami counts for Dayton or Cincy, I should probably count Findlay and Defiance for Toledo!! lol. All three schools are out in the country and about the same distance from the big city.

 

Hehe you called Toledo a "big city" ;).  Cute.  j/k

 

Regardless, Findlay and Definace, sure.  Never knew Definace had a university and barely  have heard of Findlay's (though I know Ohio Northern is basically Lima) but if you want to count Findlay and Defiance, I might as well count Wilmington, Wilberforce, and Urbana ;).  We can do this forever but the point is that Toledo has about as many universities as it can have, due to population (though it is weird that Ohio put two public universities in a small populated region; perhaps to spread out the state's student population).

^Maybe, but Miami is definitely considered the best public school in the state. 

 

 

Okay!, how can I argue that?

i'm glad i caught this interesting thread i have a bit of info. the history is that the state of ohio built kent state and bowling green at the same time around the turn of the century as what were called 'normal colleges.' this is another old-fashioned term for teacher training colleges, which remain their specialty even today. they are sister schools and they were both purposefully and quite rightly at the time built where they were. another concern was that it was felt the true or at least ideal college experience is best found in an isolated rural setting. and that is very true ideally. (i remember this stuff from a job being a summer tour guide at bg).

 

my bias, but bg is broadly a much better college experience than ut is, i'm not surprised they are in a rut with enrollment. i did not know ut still has open enrollment! i thought ohio state was the last state u to get rid of it -- and they did like ten years ago or more. so it needs to go. open enrollment is what community colleges like owens are for & like terra for the farmers (both good local schools).

 

we also have info as we know all the dope on all the ohio colleges very well as my spouse started in business as a college textbook rep & marketer for ohio.

 

ps--cdm defiance indeed does have a college, but get this defiance high school has a bigger enrollment than the college. c-dawg believe me lots of people know wittenberg college very well....like kenyon, antioch & oberlin its just mostly east coasters & not so many ohioans. when you get down to the cedarvilles, ashlands, urbanas (huh?) and defiances is really the point where it all fizzles out into local obscurity imo.

 

 

 

 

 

Toledo (310,000 in 81 square miles) is almost TWICE the size of Dayton (165,000 in 56 square miles). Dayton has more suburbs of course, but both Toledo and Dayton are the SAME class of city to most people. You seem to have some sort of bias against Toledo as I do against Dayton. I will admit I'm not a huge fan of the city. There is one BIG reason I personally like Toledo more than Dayton:

 

The difference is, I never called Dayton a "big city."  It's a big metropolitan area, but not a large city.  That's the main difference.  I honestly have no beef with Toledo; it's just I see forumers talking it up, comparing it to lord knows what, and then belittling other areas in the process of proving a point.  So basically, it's not Toledo.  I have no opinion on Toledo.

 

-I like always like coastal cities more than interior ones, because of how much I love water and the nature by the coasts. I'm also am into big ships, so port cities feed that appetite.

 

Well, that's great and all (though I never considered Toledo a "coastal city," probably due to Lake Erie being on the area's northeast side) but I couldn't care less if a city is "coastal" or not.  It's all about "the city" for me.  Or, more broadly, the area (the urbanity, architecture, the people, the food, etc).  Ships and ports mean nothing to me.

 

I like Toledo and Cleveland more than the rest of Ohio because of this more than anything else. It's more than hometown pride.

 

Well, that's great.  But don't belittle other cities in the process (esp. when not knowing anything about the cities that are "analyzed") as I try not to belittle Toledo.

 

Now I'd like to ask you why you like Dayton so much? Or what do you enjoy or not enjoy about it?

 

It's unique, the history, the African-American influence, the architecture, the "Ohio's Largest Area That Isn't a Three C" factor (meaning, hold our own), the transit history, the topography, the area, the food, the people, blah blah.

 

Favorite cities are very personal things, and there are usually reasons beyond pride. Toledo is actually far from my favorite city. It's tied with Cleveland as my favorite Ohio city though. I like Miami more than Toledo. I like Toronto and Montreal MUCH more. I like Madison and Portland (Maine) more. If I ranked my favorite Ohio cities it would be in this order. Now these are entirely just opinion of course:

 

Again, everybody has a personal preference.

 

Toledo/Cleveland are tied for the top- I prefer cities and metros with higher proportions of democrats. I love Lake Erie and big ships. I enjoy coastal marshes and the wildlife living there. I also am a big fan of the dining, especially the Lebanese food in Toledo. I also like how metro Toledo has limited sprawl. Cleveland's skyline and downtown are outstanding for a city its size. I am a big fan of the zoos and art musuems in both cities too.

 

Again, everybody has preferences.  Usually preferences are shaped (for better or for worse) by what you grew up around.  Thus, if your preference is coastal marshes and Lebanese food (which that can be found anywhere, but that's not the point), then there ya go.

 

Columbus- I like how progressive it is, and I enjoy a lot of their restuarants and the openess of the city. I like how the metro is limiting its sprawl and I personally support annexation.

 

Cincinnati- Architecture, architecture, architecture. It has some very cool (and unique) buildings for Ohio. The skyline is also excellent. Music Hall and Union Terminal are awesome.

 

Akron- It has gorgeous terrain and some gorgeous parks near it well worth visiting. It is a very intact city that's pretty safe and affordable.

 

Okay...

 

Dayton- I like how despite shrinking to a small central city, it holds its own. The large amount of suburbs are enough to keep the downtown big and alive, so it still feels like a major city, not just a large metro without a home. The skyline is probably the best for any city with 165,000 people in the country. It is comparable to Toledo's. The Air Force Musuem is also very interesting to visit.

 

Interesting how you throw in a subtle snide remark on how Dayton has a shrinking small central city (as does Toledo, which you neglected to mention; as does Akron, which you neglected to mention) without considering the term "urbanized area," in which Dayton is larger than Toledo, thus Dayton's "downtown" is going to be bigger, thus Dayton's going to "feel" larger.  Again, city boundaries are nothing more than a division line these days.  If anything, you should commend Toledo on having a decent skyline for a  metro of 600,000 (compared to Akron, which has 700,000; and Youngstown, which also has about 600,000).

 

Youngstown- well, I like how it....all right I don't like Youngstown too much. I'm sorry. It's just opinion!!!

 

I'm sure they feel the same way about Toledo ;).  Hell, they both are the red-headed step children of the state :D.

Oh no, not this again!  Maybe it's time for a Toledo vs. Dayton thread-to-end-all-threads. :box:

 

Toledo kicks puppies and eats babies.

 

(I wish I had something germane to the university discussion and were not just wasting bandwidth, I really do.  Sorry.)

LOL!!!

 

The thing is, I'm from Dayton and we don't care about Toledo. ;)  So why have a versus thread if only one side actually cares about winning? :D

 

 

Toledo should be compared to Youngstown; both are around the same metropolitan size (MSA and CSA) and both are near/touch state boundaries.  Both have their own media markets, both have ghetto and both have nice areas.  Both were one-industry towns at one time and both have diagonal parking in their downtown streets.  Both have horrid arenas (though Youngstown is building one and I think Toledo is thinking of building one) and both lack an airport with decent amount of flights.  And both are arguably in the Cleveland sphere of influence (though Youngstown could say, Pittsburgh; Toledo could say Detroit).  Alas.

If only for hometown posterity, i have to side with ColDayMan. After reading what is written, I will say this: Dayton and Toledo can't be compared as easily as people seem to think. Dayton and Toledo have very little in common aside from being in the same state. I feel that Akron and Dayton are much more similar...That being said, i understand that everyone has their own favorites. However, I have noticed that some people from Toledo constantly try to attack D-town to say how nice Toledo is. I see this as an example of the predator the wounded prey because it's easier. I'm not naming names, but in the past I have noticed several Toledo forumers have compared dayton to toledo to make toledo seem better simply because a comparison to , say, columbus would warrant shrieks of laughter at the absurdity of it.

 

My opinion, Dayton is simply in better condition than Toledo in many ways. It's been ranked as a better place to live and to do business. Toledo forumers who feel unfairly treated may direct further comments to every magazine that has consistently ranked Dayton higher.

 

Oh and for ColDayMan....DAYTON REPRESENT!

LOL!

 

Oy!  Flycity baby ;)

I always thought the Dayton vd. Akron thing made a lot of sense.

 

Okay...new topic: Van Wert vs. Logan.  GO!

A 2 da K is from Akron.  There are one or two others, I think.

funny you said that. You are the one sometimes calling Toledo a metro of 600,000 (very conservative) and Dayton one of 1.1 million (very liberal). In reality, metros are better represented by a range. They aren't like central cities which have strict political boundaries. I've seen Toledo printed anywhere from 625,000 to 825,000. I've seen Dayton printed anywhere from 840,000 to 1.1 million. You tend to put Toledo at the bottom of its range and Dayton at the top of its range and you include Springlfield's metro. Who is really belittling now?

 

Hardly.  Dayton Metro IS 1.1 million and Toledo's CSA is what, 720,000, after they RECENTLY added Fremont?  Dayton CSA is almost 400,000 larger than Toledo-Fremont's CSA.  It used to be just 650,000 (pre-Fremont), which is what I'm used to.  If you want MSA, Dayton MSA is 850,000ish while Toledo's MSA is 660,000.  In comparison, Akron's MSA is 702,000 while Youngstown's MSA is 600,000.  So no, it's not a stretch to compare Toledo's MSA to Youngstown's MSA, or Toledo-Fremont to Youngstown-Warren (which is currently sitting at 705,000).  Sorry, stick with Youngstown.

 

Wikipedia (a respectable resource)

 

Dayton DOES have a  comparatively small central city compared to the other large Ohio metros except Youngstown. It did shrink a lot (almost as bad as Cleveland, Cincy, and Detroit in terms of percentage). Akron, Columbus, and Toledo shrunk less. I tend to like Columbus and Toledo so much because of what they did to prevent taxbase loss. They looked at the newer areas coming up and basically said "Let's try to annex those places" so we can offset what's happening in other parts of the city. That's just my opinion as I support annexation.

 

Well.  That's fine and dandy. So you pretty much said parts of Toledo city is annexed sububia/townships while Dayton central city couldn't get any.  By comparison, Dayton city is 1/9th of it's own MSA.  Cincinnati?  a 1/7th.  Cleveland?  1/5th.  Toledo?  Nearly 1/2.  So while Toledo's city limits extends into potentially/used to be suburban communities, Dayton did not do that as Dayton was/is nearly surronded by inner-ring suburbs.  "Liking" a place due to annexation has nothing to do with the logistics of how a city is "small core, large metro."

 

What is so amazing about Dayton is how much suburban growth it had and how much it sprawled. The central city never got as big as Cleveland, Cincy, or Toledo, so when it shrunk, its ranking went with it. Columbus, Cleveland, Cincy, and Toledo were all top 55 cities in 2000.  Dayton was 122.

 

The difference in your arguement is that Toledo's area never grew as large as Dayton's.  Regardless if Dayton grew in the city or suburbs, it grew.  Toledo didn't grow that large (only Youngstown's size), thus it has less people, thus it is smaller than Dayton area.  So it is no surprise that Ohio's 4th most populated area has more sprawl than Ohio's 6th.  It sounds about right.

 

I can't imagine what the Cincy people will feel when its city rank falls below Toledo's. They are two different classes of metros, but many outside Ohio will think of Toledo as Ohio's third largest city, because of what the newspapers are likely to print.

 

I don't think Cincinnati really cares about Toledo, in general.  It's like when San Jose surpassed San Francisco in California.  Everybody still knows that San Fran is the "larger, more important, larger metro" city yet the "papers" put San Jose nearly in the Top 10 US cities.  Again, people aren't stupid.

 

It will be true, but only half of the picture. I'm sure you'll agree those rankings don't mean too much though. I tend to feel that outside of Ohio, many people think all our cities are the same (just shitty Rust Belt towns). We ALL have inferiority complexes except Bustown.

 

Columbus has it too.

 

Metro rank for Dayton is usually around 55 and Toledo is around 70 so I would argue they are the same class of metro. But like you said, you don't care about Toledo, and I don't care about Dayton. It works both ways.

 

The difference is that Metro Dayton is over a million.  Toledo sits behind Akron and just barely ahead of Youngstown.  Thus, looking at raw MSA numbers, it goes:

 

1. Cleveland (2.2)

2. Cincinnati (2.1)

3. Columbus (1.6)

4. Dayton (800,000+)

5. Akron (700,000+)

6. Toledo (650,000

7. Youngstown (600,000)

 

So you can see why Dayton gives Toledo no "mind."  Akron is more on "Dayton's level" than Toledo.  Perhaps it is because of Toledo's isolated location that gives its residents a "big city" head in which the majority of Ohioans (aka the Top 5 largest MSA's) are like .. "whaa?"  You know, Des Moines has the same head, due to it being in the middle of nowhere.

 

Of course metro Youngstown is comparable to metro Toledo (and Akron and Dayton). There are two classes of cities in Ohio- the Three C's, and then the other ones. The big difference between all the mid-sized cities though is that Akron is strongly influenced by Cleveland. Toledo and Dayton are mostly independent. I really don't know about Y-Town.

 

There are three types; The Three C's; The Two Bitches-But-Not-Really; and the Two Red-Headed Step-Children.

No. Youngstown is nice and does well with YSU..

 

So C-Dawg.. No One is sympothizing with your Youngstown HATE.

"I don't really know about Y-town."

 

Yeah, that's HATE, alright.  :roll:

The incontrovertible truth is this:  Every city in the universe sucks but Dayton.

 

-----

On a more serious note...

 

Don't banish me from Dayton for saying this, ColDayMan, but I'd agree with C-Dawg that Dayton and Toledo are basically in the same category.  I don't consider them the same size in any manner, but I don't think Dayton's "advantage" in that department quite lifts it to another level.  But that's just an opinion without impact of any kind.  We here are geeks who are relatively well aware of the details of differences between the cities.  I don't know about anyone else, but in the course of interactions with other people I wouldn't paint one city as being insignificant with respect to the other; rather, I'd try to use what I may know to explain the facts and let people see the cities how they will.  That is, I don't want to campaign to sway the American public, whose at-large opinion might actually have consequence, to view things my way.

 

Although if they do come to see it differently from me, they're obviously morons.

Don't banish me from Dayton for saying this, ColDayMan, but I'd agree with C-Dawg that Dayton and Toledo are basically in the same category.  I don't consider them the same size in any manner, but I don't think Dayton's "advantage" in that department quite lifts it to another level.  But that's just an opinion without impact of any kind.  We here are geeks who are relatively well aware of the details of differences between the cities.  I don't know about anyone else, but in the course of interactions with other people I wouldn't paint one city as being insignificant with respect to the other; rather, I'd try to use what I may know to explain the facts and let people see the cities how they will.  That is, I don't want to campaign to sway the American public, whose at-large opinion might actually have consequence, to view things my way.

 

Totally. 

 

We all know Dayton/Akron/Toledo/Youngstown nationally are known probably the same (meaning, not at all; just names on a map, like Ft. Wayne or Peoria) and even Columbus is just barely squeeking in the national limelight as of recently.  My point was more "state" level, not national (in terms of importance, numbers, etc).

It has nothing to do with "Perhaps it is because of Toledo's isolated location that gives its residents a "big city" head"

 

Toledo has more business clout than Dayton or Youngstown (larger corporations and more of them).

 

Uh...wow.  Just wow.  Dayton's GNP/GDP is larger than Toledo's.  Obviously, Dayton has more "business clout" than Toledo.  That's the WORST thing you've said all night.  And also to further the logic, name one Fortune 500 company in Sacramento, CA.  Exactly.

 

Many people look at that when judging cities. That's where a place like Nati always gets a lot of respect.

It is the country's 5th largest transportation hub

It is one of the largest freshwater ports on earth

The zoo and art musuem are ridiculous and recognized around the world

It is the hub of Northwest Ohio in every way

 

5th largest transporation hub?  Wha?  The zoo is cute and the museum is great for glass and they are good regionally, but damn, I doubt people from all over the world "recognize" Toledo's museum and zoo like you think.  If anybody Cleveland's Art Museum is Ohio's ONLY recognized art museum and Columbus (and Cincinnati) have the most recognized zoos (Jack Hanna helps Columbus ALOT).

 

And this (from "do Toledo"):

 

"Considering that northwest Ohio is a melting pot of culture, it's not surprising that the Toledo area is known to have more restaurants, many of ethnic origin, per capita than any other city in the Midwest. The ethnic diversity throughout the Toledo area is best represented through its restaurants."

 

So a website said that.  Wow.  Just like a website (which I posted today on the website) said that Waynesville Ohio is the "Antique Capital of the Midwest."  Websites will say anything to promote their subject matter.  Hell, I praised Toledo on UrbanOhio, just to promote it :D *ZING!*

 

Cincinnati also has the high rate of restuarant thing. Austin is known for this too.

 

Indeed.

 

Those are all current things that give the city its "big city" head. And it damn well should have a big city head because of what it pulls off with a MSA that only ranks roughly 70 and city that ranks 55 (2000).

 

What about Madison, WI?  Or perhaps even smaller metros like Santa Fe and Omaha?  I think isolationism has alot to do with the "big head" syndrome.  Why?  There is nothing "out there" to compare it to.  Granted, Ohio is a relatively small state but regionally, Northwest Ohio is isolated (much like SE Ohio; except SE Ohio's largest metro is actually part of West Virginia...the irony...).  So yes, Toledo is going to have a "big head" syndrome (esp. when talking about cities in its own state, apparently).

 

Few MSAs under a million have what Toledo has, so that's where it gets the big head. I would say Des Moines should have a big head too as it pulls off a similar feat. Just look at the skyline of that city!! It's shocking considering its size. It is a true business center.

 

The skyline isn't shocking.  One must keep in mind that Des Moines is THE city for a state of 3 million.  Ditto with Omaha, Little Rock, OKC/Tulsa, Denver, Seattle, etc.  Hell, even freakin' Salt Lake City has a decently large skyline.

 

You seem to really have to defend Dayton (maybe the inferiority complex you accused me of). What do you think currently makes Dayton a different class of city than Toledo? I'm dying to see what you think Dayton has that Toledo doesn't other than a larger airport (Dayton damn well better have a big airport and air force base seeing as how it was the birthplace of it all).

 

Just by asking that dumb question already tells me the "Toledo inferiority complex."  I would NEVER ask "what makes Toledo so much better than Dayton?"  I already know it isn't :D.  To make it simple (instead of wasting my time getting stats, Dayton historical facts, "famous people from...," pictures, theaters, arenas, shopping, dining, etc), Dayton just has more.  It's like asking the question "what puts Akron in a different class than Canton?"  Why waste my time.

 

I think any MSA between .5 to 1 million is in the same class, as are the 1-2 million MSAs, then the 2-4, etc. It generally takes a doubling of size to have a very noticeable difference. Dayton, Akron, and Toledo are pretty close here (less than 200,000 apart).

 

Not going to argue that, from a national perspective.  From an Ohio-regional perspective, though, it can be "meaningful." 

 

Cities that are more regional hubs (like Des Moines) perhaps move up a notch because they are more important to their area than say Dayton is to Southwest Ohio (Dayton has to compete with Nati) or Toledo is to Northwest Ohio/Southeast Michigan to some extent.

 

Hardly.  Importance, for the most part, means money.  Dayton area spews out more cash than Des Moines.  Toledo vs. Des Moines, I have no clue, but whoever wins the money race, wins the "importance" race.  Des Moines is obviously more "important" to Iowa than Dayton/Akron/Toledo are to Ohio, yet nationally, that doesn't mean jack shit, as a city can have more economic importance than a "state's largest city."  Then again, importance has so many levels, it's not wise to go into that unless we have specifics on what "importance" is, in which that can be made up by ANYONE.  Even Detroit's mayor :D.

 

What these threads have really proven to me more than anything are the following:

 

Colday is a big Dayton nerd

I am a big Toledo nerd

 

Actually, I'm a big Ohio nerd, in general.  Dayton's where I'm from (so is Cincinnati) and I live in Columbus, but I love to travel, explore, and promote Ohio.  From Marietta to Bryan, I love to see it all.  I try not to be biased on any level of Ohio (though it obviously shows in some ways) but if I gotta defend Dayton, I gotta do it (esp. from Toledo, oy vey!). :)

 

 

Although for being a nerd, some of the math looks suspect "Dayton city is 1/9th of it's own MSA"

 

165,000 x 9= 1,485,000. Dayton's MSA is about 850,000. That's a pretty big error.

 

I was talking about CSA on that one.  I forgot Dayton still was over 165,000 :D.  But then again, it isn't that far fetched, seeing how "Metro Dayton" should include northern Warren and northern Butler counties, in which the total CSA would be 1.3 million.  But alas...

i realized this happened like 10 years ago in this thread, but ohio has 15 public 4 year universities, not 13

 

 

i realized this happened like 10 years ago in this thread, but ohio has 15 public 4 year universities, not 13

 

 

 

Yeah, but Wright & Cleveland St got spun off from OSU under Rhodes (part 1). They don't count. :-D

<dives back into the leftover muck from Katrina>

Okay...new topic: Van Wert vs. Logan.  GO!

 

van wert totally kicks logans azz. they have that cool car cruising thing in the middle of town on weekend nights and also have an excellent arts center that supports and honors ohio artists. no contest.  :jo:

Yeah, but Logan has the whole Hocking Hills thing going for it and Van Wert is pancake-flat.

Hmmmm. Hill people (Logan) vs Farmers (Van Wert).

Van Wert's courthouse rulz!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

Yeah, but Logan has the whole Hocking Hills thing going for it and Van Wert is pancake-flat.

 

well thats done wonders for logan's prosperity! vee dub is 4 or 5 times bigger than logan and its ave income $10k more per resident. not much of a battle, it's van wert in a landslide victory.  looking this stuff up i also learned van wert county produces 30% of ohio's popcorn and neither place has any hawaiians or pacific islanders.... :sleep:

 

 

 

^ LOL.  Man, I can't believe that you actually took the time to look something up!  You definintely win this one.

 

I only chose Logan because I spent several years living in that part of the state, whereas almost all of NW Ohio is pretty foreign to me.

How about Kilbourne V East Claridon?  :-D

From the 10/19/05 Toledo Blade:

 

 

UT trustees probe cause of drop in enrollment

Leaders questioned on corrective actions

By KIM BATES

BLADE STAFF WRITER

 

This semester, University of Toledo leaders formed an enrollment task force, met with consultants, and are in the middle of a tuition study to determine what the market will bear - all aimed at trying to stem declining enrollment.

 

Some of the efforts as well as the issue of enrollment in general were the focus yesterday of a sometimes heated meeting of the board of trustees academic affairs committee, during which several trustees grilled administrators on why UT's head-count has dropped again - and what they're going to do about it.

 

Administrators said one reason they couldn't attract more students to campus this year was because additional recruiters who were put in place after last fall's shortfall weren't on the road until December - long after many high school students had decided on which schools they'd attend.

 

Full article at http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051019/NEWS21/510190400/-1/NEWS

 

From the 11/16/05 Toledo Blade:

 

 

CAPSULE

 

UT, MUO explore possible merger

Trustees, regents open to the idea

By LUKE SHOCKMAN and KIM BATES

BLADE STAFF WRITERS

 

The Medical University of Ohio and University of Toledo are looking at a proposed "business combination" that could include merging the two institutions.  Dr. Lloyd Jacobs, president of MUO, discussed the merger possibility yesterday during his annual state of the university address, stunning many in attendance.

 

"I'm still in a little bit of a state of shock. It's an incredible concept," said Dr. Lawrence Elmer, president of MUO's faculty senate, who added that he's open to the idea.  Dr. Jacobs and his counterpart, UT President Daniel Johnson, said details on the proposal are still sketchy and it's too early to say what will ultimately happen.

 

However, the two have been discussing the matter privately since at least June 8, according to copies of e-mail correspondence obtained by The Blade yesterday.  The two university presidents said a more complete proposal is expected over the next couple of months.

 

Full article at http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051116/NEWS21/511160402/-1/NEWS

 

As a student at MUO, i would love it if it would merge with UT.  I don't particularly like the community college-esque architectural setup at MUO, or the feeling of being disconnected from students in other programs.  However, the campus is viable and the school would not likely be relocated.  However, if there was a way to move the campus from its South Toledo location I would probably jump for joy, as this area is as suburban as you can get, but within the city limits.  Just to the west of the school at the corner of Byrne and Glendale there's a high-vacancy shopping plaza (Southland).  But just across the street from the school, on Glendale, there's a totally new shopping center (Toledo Commons) featuring WALMART and a number of nondescript chain restaurants like Ruby Tuesday.  When it comes to the name, Medical University of Ohio sounds very nondescript to me.  University of Toledo College of Medicine (or whatever such name) would stick the school on a specific place on the map better than the nebulous "Ohio" designation.

 

Of course, if I knew the first thing about the goings on at UT, I might change my tune. 

From the 11/22/05 Toledo Blade:

 

PHOTO: Medical University of Ohio President Lloyd Jacobs, left, chats with University of Toledo President Daniel Johnson after a news conference at MUO last week. The two presidents have said a merger would increase the prestige of both of the institutions. Dr. Jacobs maintained yesterday, however, that a merger between the two universities is 'not a done deal by any means.'  ( THE BLADE )

 

Papers indicate UT, MUO merger

Documents show institutions have studied plan for 4 years

By LUKE SHOCKMAN and KIM BATES

BLADE STAFF WRITER

 

The president of the Medical University of Ohio could head a merged institution with the University of Toledo that might be called the University of Ohio at Toledo, according to documents obtained yesterday by The Blade. 

 

UT President Daniel Johnson could step down as early as July, 2006 - a proposed date for the merger - and become "president emeritus and distinguished university professor" in urban affairs.  He would oversee development of a proposed science and technology corridor involving a combined UT and MUO and other institutions, the documents indicate.

 

Last week, MUO and UT publicly disclosed they were pursuing "business combination" discussions that might include a merger of the two institutions, but claimed few details had been discussed.  The announcement contradicted statements to The Blade in May by Mr. Johnson and MUO President Dr. Lloyd Jacobs denying that merger discussions were under way.

 

The documents released yesterday - after officials denied last week that any more records of their merger discussions existed - show the two institutions have been discussing a possible merger for at least four years.

 

Full article at http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051122/NEWS21/511220390/-1/NEWS

 

---

From the 11/23/05 Toledo Blade:

 

PHOTO: Johnson  ( THE BLADE )

 

UT-MUO MERGER

University of Toledo faculty wants merger data

Group balks at Johnson request for speedy endorsement

By KIM BATES

BLADE STAFF WRITER

 

Just a week after presidents at the Medical University of Ohio and the University of Toledo first publicly announced they were exploring a merger, UT President Dan Johnson yesterday asked his faculty leadership to endorse the proposal.

 

But members of the Faculty Senate put off a decision, saying they have more questions than answers and haven't yet been provided with details of the concept.  "What I'm against is it's being thrown at us at the last minute," said Kathleen Thompson-Casado, an assistant professor of Spanish, who said she's not opposed to the idea but wants more information so she can issue an informed vote at a later date.

 

"I haven't seen any of the specifics," added Professor Debra Stoudt before faculty members voted 20-13 to table a resolution supporting the merger until their next meeting on Dec. 6.  The faculty's show-of-hands vote yesterday, which was taken after Mr. Johnson left the meeting, came on the same day The Blade reported details about the proposed merger - details Mr. Johnson and MUO President Dr. Lloyd Jacobs said didn't exist when questioned last week.

 

Full article at http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051123/NEWS21/511230403/-1/NEWS

 

From the 12/6/05 Toledo Blade:

 

PHOTO: The faculty senate of the Medical University of Ohio is briefed on the proposed merger by Dr. Lloyd Jacobs, MUO president.  ( THE BLADE/ANDREW MCMURTRIE )

 

PHOTO: Dr. Lawrence Elmer, president of the MUO faculty senate, directs the discussion before the senate voted to recommend a merger with the University of Toledo.  ( THE BLADE/ANDREW MCMURTRIE )

 

Medical senate backs merger plan with UT

Some faculty reluctant to vote on short notice

 

The Medical University of Ohio faculty senate yesterday endorsed "in principle" the institution's proposed merger with the University of Toledo, despite some members' reluctance about voting when they had been afforded no chance to discuss the matter with colleagues.

 

The 20-2 vote preceded meetings of the UT faculty senate and both institutions' boards of trustees scheduled for today. All three panels are expected to take up the merger matter.

 

The MUO faculty senate has 46 members. The senate's two dissents came from professors, who objected to voting for the merger proposal on first hearing. "I don't see how we can consider this without consulting our constituents," said Ron Mellgren, a professor of pharmacology, who was joined by Isabel Novella, of the medical microbiology and immunology department, in voting against the resolution.

 

Full article at http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051206/NEWS21/512060399/-1/NEWS

 

From the 12/7/05 Toledo Blade:

 

PHOTO: Andrew Jorgensen, chairman of the University of Toledo Faculty Senate, said merger details are far from clear.  ( THE BLADE/MADALYN RUGGIERO )

 

Governing boards endorse ‘principle’ of UT, MUO merger

By TAD VEZNER and IGNAZIO MESSINA

BLADE STAFF WRITERS

 

In a series of votes, two governing boards and an academic body at the University of Toledo and the Medical University of Ohio approved the idea of merging the two institutions, but with varying degrees of enthusiasm.

 

UT’s faculty senate and the school’s board of trustees supported the merger in resolutions couched with such language as “in principle” and “in concept,” but MUO’s board of trustees unanimously endorsed the merger with no ambivalence after a 10-minute meeting.

 

Out of the three groups, the most lengthy and rigorous debate occurred during the UT faculty senate meeting, which included a call by the school’s graduate committee to drop support for the merger and instead endorse “continued exploration of the feasibility of merging the institutions.”

 

The amendment failed by a vote of 28-11 in favor of supporting the merger “in principle,” which passed by a vote of 36-2, with three abstentions.

 

Full article at http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051207/NEWS21/51207019/-1/NEWS

 

From the 12/15/05 Toledo Blade:

 

PHOTO: Jacobs  ( THE BLADE )

 

MUO chief meets with UT employees

Forum held to discuss merger plan

 

Seated on an auditorium stage, Medical University of Ohio President Dr. Lloyd Jacobs took the microphone yesterday and fielded dozens of questions from University of Toledo employees - people who could be working for him as early as this summer if a merger of the two schools takes place.

 

Dr. Jacobs opened his forum as a bit of a meet-and-greet, telling the hundreds of people in attendance - most of whom don't know him well or at all - that he appreciated the chance for UT employees to be able to see him "in the flesh, as a living, breathing, fallible human being."

 

He then quickly asked people to jump in with questions, and he ended up for 90 minutes addressing issues such as his views on shared governance, financial ramifications of merging, benefits to students, and gender equity in the workplace. Perhaps most importantly to many, he also gave his thoughts on unions.

 

Full article at http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051215/NEWS21/512150366/-1/NEWS

 

From the 12/17/05 Toledo Blade:

 

Regents bless MUO-UT merger

Move will strengthen both, state board says

By KIM BATES

BLADE STAFF WRITER

 

CLEVELAND - The Ohio Board of Regents yesterday unanimously approved a merger between the University of Toledo and the Medical University of Ohio, saying it's a historic development that's long overdue in the state.  "It has been a dream. It has been a discussion topic. It has been a priority item on the regents' agenda for some time," Regent Jeanette Brown said. "This is the epitome of what we'd hoped for: It does it all."

 

The regents also praised the institutions' presidents, Dan Johnson at UT and Dr. Lloyd Jacobs at MUO, for taking the initiative in moving a merger forward in response to statewide pushes urging leaders like them to further their collaborations.  "I will tell you unequivocally for this record and all to hear that, without these two men and their respect for each other, this would have never taken place," Regent Jim Tuschman said.

 

According to the resolution passed by the regents, the merger is viewed as a way to make the two institutions a stronger force, with an increased ability to recruit and serve students, attract and keep faculty and staff, attract research dollars, and eliminate duplications in costs and services.

 

Full article at http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051217/NEWS21/512170402/-1/NEWS

 

From the 1/20/06 Toledo Blade:

 

 

Ohio House bill advances plan for UT-MUO merger

Measure by 2 area lawmakers saves cost issues for later talks

By JIM PROVANCE

BLADE COLUMBUS BUREAU

 

COLUMBUS — Toledo lawmakers yesterday hoped for swift passage as they introduced a bill that would grant the state’s blessing on the marriage of the University of Toledo and the Medical University of Ohio.

 

The merger is set for July 1, but the process of fully integrating the schools into one will be anything but swift. It will take until July 2, 2014, before the two boards of trustees are whittled down to a single, nine-member board.

 

The 68-page bill includes no transitional money for the merger, saving that issue for later budget debates. The two universities initially estimated the price tag to integrate technical systems, realign staffs, relocate programs, and other one-time costs at $20 million.

 

The bill’s sponsors, Reps. Mark Wagoner (R., Ottawa Hills) and Peter Ujvagi (D., Toledo), said the appropriation is more likely to be between $3 million and $5 million.

 

Full article at http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060120/NEWS24/60120015/-1/RSS