Posted January 13, 200916 yr Stuttgart's main train station, the Elbe Philharmonic in Hamburg, and Berlin's City Palace: these three major construction projects will shape their cities. And so the demands made on them and the controversy surrounding them are major, too. In all three cases, historical legacy collides with modernism in architecture. And opinions could not be more divided. To top things off, these buildings will all be much more expensive than originally planned. ARTS.21 asks why large architectural projects are always dogged with difficulties.
January 13, 200916 yr Interesting piece. I'm really glad to know that similar struggles to ours go on overseas and that America isn't the only one to have these types of arguments. It's interesting because I always saw Europeans as these unequivocally progressive people, and while they probably are much more so than us still, I guess that's not necessarily always the case in every scenario. Regardless, I really love the two more modern designs (the train station in Stuttgart and the philharmonic auditorium in Hamburg). The Palace is a recycling of old styles, and I agree that it's too conservative and unimaginative. Onward, future!!
January 13, 200916 yr I don't like the palace design or the philharmonic auditorium design, but I think the train station design/concept is great. When you can return that much land back to the city and people it is an amazing opportunity that should not be passed up.
January 13, 200916 yr I hate all three personally, but the one that I detest the most is the abomination that they are building in the Schlossplatz! The Berliner Stadtschloss should be rebuilt in its entirety, at least on the outside! Despite what they've been saying for over a decade now, this is not a restoration or a rebuilding, its the disneification ( I dunno if thats even a word, but its a accurate description of whats going on) of a once proud and beautiful building. If I had known THIS is what they were going to build, I would have preferred the Palast Der Republik, at least that would have been historically accurate!
January 13, 200916 yr I don't really want to start something off topic, but jpop, the presumption you (and you're not alone by any stretch) make about Europeans is a classic example of American exceptionalism. Some Europeans on some issues are more progressive, but in many ways they are not and the same is true pretty much everywhere in the world.
January 13, 200916 yr You're right. Chalk it up to ignorance. I'm not sure what it is about Europe, but it just strikes me that way.
January 13, 200916 yr I'm not sure what it is about Europe, but it just strikes me that way. I expect everyone in Europe to have my political leanings but to a higher degree while also being skinnier with cool accents.
January 13, 200916 yr But what are your opinions about the projects? As I stated before, I hate the "neu alte Berliner Stadtschloss". I'm also not crazy about the partial demolishion of the Stuttgart Bahnhof. I do like the project in Hamberg though.....well somewhat. P.S. Forgive my German, is I did not correctly spell something, I'm still learning!
January 13, 200916 yr I don't really want to start something off topic, but jpop, the presumption you (and you're not alone by any stretch) make about Europeans is a classic example of American exceptionalism. Some Europeans on some issues are more progressive, but in many ways they are not and the same is true pretty much everywhere in the world. I was just ranting about this in another post the other day: I was just listening to something really interesting on BBC about cities and memory and they were talking about that - which is why I'm bringing up this tangent lol. Basically they contrasted NYC with a city like Berlin that has arguably too much history still remaining. Even if you change the Stalinist street names or take down Nazi emblems, the ghosts of the past will always haunt that city. It's just everywhere. The grand streets, the massive over sized buildings. Everyone is reminded of their fascist, communist, violent past. When it was laid out, it was meant to be a tribute to power - a grand imperialist city but also one that evokes a sense of guilt. To alleviate that sense of guilt they make memorials like the Holocaust memorial. Although the reason behind it is to come to terms with the past, every memorial prompts an argument. There was actually a lot of criticism against the memorial - mostly coming from Jews. Conversely, Frankfurt destroyed a very large portion of their city for new development and I thought one of the commentators made an interesting point as to why they did: "Amnesia is freedom". It really speaks volumes about what sometimes motivates us to destroy historic areas. Frankfurt is seen as a denial that anything ever took place. They said the new development in Berlin is so dull and has so little depth, it's as if the answer to having too much history is neutrality.
January 13, 200916 yr The stadtschloss just seems like the worst sort of the German fetishizing the rebuilding of its past. The Stuttgart station is quite impressive (in an impressive town).
January 13, 200916 yr The controversy over the Stadtschloss seems a bit fake. I think it's trumped up by a very vocal minority. As someone who has been to Berlin and seen the old "People's Palace" it's hard to fully describe what a horrible blighted monstrosity it was. It was non-functional, dehumanizing, and just plain ugly. The average "man on the street" really seemed to hate it. Given the otherwise "imperial" nature of the surrounding buildings, a Stadtschloss reconstruction makes a ton of contextual sense. Opponents of the Stadtschloss reconstruction itself seem to fall into two camps. - Those who strongly prefer modernist architecture and revile neo-traditionalism (usually themselves architects) - Those who sympathized with the Soviet puppet regime, and therefore viewed the Peoples Palace as a symbol worth saving. Beyond that, it's fair to have complaints about the specific details of the reconstruction project. However, those matters of taste can get very nebulous very fast. Notice that Chadoh21 makes the valid point that it's not a 100% reconstruction. Whereas the architect in the video seems furious for the opposite reason. The project is TOO MUCH of a reconstruction, with not enough modern components. You certainly can't please everyone. However, I think the ultimate point is that the Peoples Palace deserved to die, and the City Palace (or a version thereof) will be a massive improvement.
January 13, 200916 yr The stadtschloss just seems like the worst sort of the German fetishizing the rebuilding of its past. The Stuttgart station is quite impressive (in an impressive town). I think its fitting considering its surroundings! And lets face it, its a great way to forget decades of socialism the subjugation of the German people by the Soviet Union! The Palast Der Republik, was not a palace, not was it a worthy symbol of ANY German Republic. The DDR was a puppet state, subservant to the will of Moscow and the communist party. The sooner the REAL Palace is rebuilt (Not this modern crap that they are calling the Berliner Stadtschloss), the better! As some already know, my Major at CSU is historic preservation. If I had my way, the commie blocks around the Alex would suffer the same fate as the Palast and the former Foreign Ministry, which was demolished and will be replaced with a replica of the beautiful Bauakamie (School of Architecture) which was built in Werderscher Markt by Karl Friedrich Schinkel!
January 13, 200916 yr The controversy over the Stadtschloss seems a bit fake. I think it's trumped up by a very vocal minority. As someone who has been to Berlin and seen the old "People's Palace" it's hard to fully describe what a horrible blighted monstrosity it was. It was non-functional, dehumanizing, and just plain ugly. The average "man on the street" really seemed to hate it. Given the otherwise "imperial" nature of the surrounding buildings, a Stadtschloss reconstruction makes a ton of contextual sense. Opponents of the Stadtschloss reconstruction itself seem to fall into two camps. - Those who strongly prefer modernist architecture and revile neo-traditionalism (usually themselves architects) - Those who sympathized with the Soviet puppet regime, and therefore viewed the Peoples Palace as a symbol worth saving. Beyond that, it's fair to have complaints about the specific details of the reconstruction project. However, those matters of taste can get very nebulous very fast. Notice that Chadoh21 makes the valid point that it's not a 100% reconstruction. Whereas the architect in the video seems furious for the opposite reason. The project is TOO MUCH of a reconstruction, with not enough modern components. You certainly can't please everyone. However, I think the ultimate point is that the Peoples Palace deserved to die, and the City Palace (or a version thereof) will be a massive improvement. Don't forget it was a HUGE health hazard because of all the asbestos inside it! Thats part of the reason it took SO long to demolish. LOL, A building hopelessly contaminated! Its a fitting representation of the DDR as a whole I think!
January 14, 200916 yr I just think that recreating imperial buildings in a modern democracy is not the best way to go. I guess I'm not a big fan of much of the imperial building anywhere in Germany (Nuremburg, Munich, Berlin). I prefer the vibe of places like Koln and Bonn (though it does have it fair share of imperial buildings).
January 14, 200916 yr What are they planning on doing with an imperial palace, again? They are rebuilding three of the four sides and adding alot of "Modern" crap to it, mostly in the rear and courtyards of the building. This thing will as about as authentic as the Disney castle by the time they are done! I'll look for a pic to show you!
January 14, 200916 yr I got that from the video. The question is what are they going to do with an Imperial Palace?
January 14, 200916 yr I got that from the video. The question is what are they going to do with an Imperial Palace? They are calling it the Humbolt Forum and I think its going to have things like a conference center, meeting space, cultural facilities and so on. Its going to serve in a role similar to the Palast, minus the Parliament!
January 14, 200916 yr The Removal of the Palast der Republik The Humboldt Forum The Humboldt Forum is envisaged as an international forum of art, culture and science to be built on the grounds of the former Berlin City Palace. The Forum will lie directly across from the Museum Island - which already features many outstanding collections of European art - and is designed to inspire a fruitful dialogue among the cultures of the world. Some of Berlin's most important museums, libraries and research institutions will join forces at the Humboldt Forum: for example, the National Museums in Berlin will present unique artistic and cultural artefacts from Africa, Asia, America and Oceania; the Central and Regional Library of Berlin will feature countless books and multi-media items; and Humboldt University will exhibit its prominent collection of scientific research in the form of a "Schaufenster der Wissenschaft" (Showcase of the Sciences). The Humboldt Forum's guiding principle is an equal exchange among world cultures. The Forum will unite Wilhelm von Humboldt's humanistic model with Alexander von Humboldt's ideal of all-encompassing knowledge. On the grounds of the former Palace, at the very centre of historic Berlin, a new, universal approach to the world's civilizations will emerge. This is the vision of the Humboldt Forum. The Humboldt Forum is designed to act as a site of information, education and meaningful cultural encounters for both Berliners and visitors. At its very core is a fascinating selection of exhibitions, lectures, theatres, film, music and dance. http://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/bauen/palast_rueckbau/en/humboldtforum.shtml http://www.deutsches-architektur-forum.de/forum/index.php
January 17, 200916 yr Conversely, Frankfurt destroyed a very large portion of their city for new development and I thought one of the commentators made an interesting point as to why they did: "Amnesia is freedom". It really speaks volumes about what sometimes motivates us to destroy historic areas. Frankfurt is seen as a denial that anything ever took place. Frankfurt destroyed their city? Uh, I think that was the RAF and USAAF. Pretty much the entire historic center was flattened, via air-raid and the city reconstructed selected monuments, but built-out the rest of the urban fabric in modern style, but following the old street system more or less. It depened on the city on how they rebuilt after the war. Some where more "historic" than others. The modern Frankfurt skyscaper district isn't in this former town center, but in the West End, an old residential district dating to the Grunderzeit (at the earliest) and Wilhelmine era (believe it or not Cincinnatis' OTR and Columbus' German Village is probably older than Frankfurts West End.
January 17, 200916 yr That is generally fascinating part of Euro urban history. The fact that the oldest neighborhoods in the Americas are often quite a bit older than neighborhoods across Europe. Those silly wars and dictators/monarchies will do that.
January 17, 200916 yr I would say it was mostly war, and specifically, areal bombing by the US and Britian in WWII. One of those cities which was heavily damaged was Leipzig, which, after decades of communism is trying to rebuild itself and preserve its history. These photos are from the Deutsches Architektur-Forum, THESE ARE NOT MY PHOTOS. The district is called Packhofviertel, which I could not find much about in English. Many parts of the city are experiencing rebirth and this is one one them!
January 18, 200916 yr Goldschmidtstraße 31, 1881 Goldschmidtstraße 31, 2006 Goldschmidtstraße 31, 2008
January 18, 200916 yr Think about that though - they're trying to preserve their history. But what is their history? Trust me, I'm all for preservation. I love old buildings. But they're preserving a communist past. To me those buildings are a reminder of bigotry, violence, and communism. Talk about bitter-sweet. I love living in America. We don't have much physical imagery of the worst parts of our history. When I went to Atlanta I wasn't reminded of slavery, except for maybe seeing a few cotton fields. Also, if you ask me - those buildings look far too dreary and dark for my taste.
January 18, 200916 yr Think about that though - they're trying to preserve their history. But what is their history? Trust me, I'm all for preservation. I love old buildings. But they're preserving a communist past. To me those buildings are a reminder of bigotry, violence, and communism. Talk about bitter-sweet. I love living in America. We don't have much physical imagery of the worst parts of our history. Also, if you ask me - those buildings look far too dreary and dark for my taste. HUH?????? What are you talking about, NONE of those buildings above were built by the communist. The last building was built in 1881, when Germany was still an Empire! The Communist didn't take over till 1945 dude! And if the truth be known, they have torn down numerous communist era buildings and replaced them with modern ones! And FYI, those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it!
January 18, 200916 yr And FYI, those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it! Yawn. We have history classes for that. Those cities were laid out as a giant prayer to power. Germany is in no position to preserve their past.
January 18, 200916 yr And FYI, those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it! Yawn. We have history classes for that. Those cities were laid out as a giant prayer to power. Germany is in no position to preserve their past. Read a History book dude, Leipzig, was not built to a "master plan" or laid out as some sort of symbol of German power. For hundreds of years, Leipzig has been a commercial center and was, and for that matter, still is the site of a famous Trade Fair which dates back to the middle ages. Besides, as an American, YOU lack the moral authority to pass any sort of moral judgement on Germany or its people! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leipzig Leipzig's name is derived from the Slavic word Lipsk, which means "settlement where the linden trees (US; lime trees in UK) stand".[2] First documented in 1015 and endowed with city and market privileges in 1165, Leipzig has fundamentally shaped the history of Saxony and of Germany. Leipzig has always been known as a place of commerce. The Leipzig Trade Fair, which began in the Middle Ages, is the oldest remaining trade fair in the world. It became an event of international importance. The foundation of the University of Leipzig in 1409 initiated the city's development into a centre of German law and the publishing industry, and towards being a location of the Reichsgericht (High Court), and the German National Library (founded in 1912). The philosopher and mathematician Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz was born in Leipzig in 1646, and attended the University of Leipzig from 1661–1666. The importance of the Trade Fair and the University in the creation of a vibrant urban life and city politics from the Reformation through the 19th century cannot be overestimated.
January 18, 200916 yr Leipzig, Friedrich-Ebert-Str, 64. built in 1870 2006 Feb 2008 Again, 2008 http://www.deutsches-architektur-forum.de/forum/showthread.php?t=6929&page=2
January 18, 200916 yr ANYWAYS, back on topic! The Berliner Stadtschloss is not the first, nor will it be the last palace to be rebuilt. The 18th century palace in Braunschweig, which was heavily damaged in World War II and demolished in 1960, was rebuilt in 2008. The facade was rebuilt as a €200 million ($310 million) shopping center by property developers ECE. There are also plans to rebuilt palaces in Potsdam and Frankfurt! Here is the article where I got the info! Germany rebuilds palaces long destroyed by war Published: 8 May 08 08:30 CET Online: http://www.thelocal.de/society/20080508-11765.html A new building boom is sweeping Germany as royal palaces destroyed during or after World War II are set to rise again, writes AFP's Brett Neely. http://www.thelocal.de/society/20080508-11765.html
January 18, 200916 yr Those cities were laid out as a giant prayer to power. Germany is in no position to preserve their past. Thiss was perhaps one of the most asinine statements I've read on this board, and that includes the political and economic subforums.
January 18, 200916 yr Hanover's Herrenhausen Palace will serve as a "future-oriented convention centre" for the Volkswagen Foundation, which announced plans last year to rebuild the palace's facade to how it was before being destroyed in 1943. Hannover is a good example of a city that rearranged the city street plan after the war to rationalize it somewhat. In the case of Herrenhausen the palace gardens were restored after the war and was well known as a landmark of sorts as it was one of the better formal palace grounds in Germany. Some of these palaces have or had parks associated with them if they were built on the edge of the old town, next to the city fortifications. Good example of this is the Prince-Bishops Palace in Wurzburg.
January 22, 200916 yr Those cities were laid out as a giant prayer to power. Germany is in no position to preserve their past. Thiss was perhaps one of the most asinine statements I've read on this board, and that includes the political and economic subforums. I wanted this subject to be left alone but I'm bothered by all the attacks on what I said - when scholars and politicians have all said the same thing and apparently I need to 'pick up a book'. I don't want to prompt another argument; I'm just showing that I didn't just pull this concept out of my @ss. ---------- The biggest news coming out of Berlin at the moment is World Cup soccer scores as Germany hosts the largest sporting event in the world. The event has been heralded by some as an opportunity to shine a spotlight on what a modern Germany has to offer rather than to dwell on its troubled past. Joelle Jaffe Associate Producer http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/rough/2006/06/germany_heart_o.html
January 22, 200916 yr I don't see that the article you posted supports the statement you made that Germany is in no position to preserve it's past. And yes, that is one of the most asinine opinions that I've read on this board. Who are you to tell another country that they have to relinquish all aspects of their past because you find some elements of it objectionable?
January 24, 200916 yr Those cities were laid out as a giant prayer to power. Really, which ones? ...and this was posted after a collection of pix of Leipzig. It is to laugh. Anyone who is familiar with German urban history & geography would knoe how absurd such as statement is, as a blanket statement referring to German cities as one type (although there are some that were planned "prayers to power", Karlsruhe being the most famous).
January 24, 200916 yr Karlsruhe is fascinating. Imagine all of Downtown Cincinnati as a big royal garden and then the 'downtown' starts at Liberty St. It was crazy.
January 24, 200916 yr I think it's natural for a nation to self-aggrandize through architecture, especially a democratic republic. I offer as evidence... This said, the winning design for the Berliner Stadtschloss is total crap.
January 24, 200916 yr I don't know. . . after Tuesday, I am more certain that we really live in a barely democratic monarchy rather than a republic.
January 25, 200916 yr I don't know. . . after Tuesday, I am more certain that we really live in a barely democratic monarchy rather than a republic. ...im feeling more a "Andrew Jackson's first inaugral" vibe. Karlsruhe is fascinating. Imagine all of Downtown Cincinnati as a big royal garden and then the 'downtown' starts at Liberty St. It was crazy. Indeed, quite! Karl-Ludwig the Mad Margrave. Now that I think about it there aren't too many purpose-built palace citys. Usually its a baroque or neoclassical extension to the medieaval core, like the Friedrichstadt in Berlin, or the expansion of Darmstadt & Munich (Munich being more neoclassical) The oddest one is Wiesbaden, capital of the Duchy of Nassau until the 1860s, which was expanded via a system of boulevards and squares and a ring, but none of this is focused on the ducal palace, which is this small neoclassical building in the old town.
January 25, 200916 yr I think it's natural for a nation to self-aggrandize through architecture, especially a democratic republic. I offer as evidence... This said, the winning design for the Berliner Stadtschloss is total crap. I agree, but I think the histories are completely different. D.C. doesn't need holocaust memorials and giant monuments signifying the unification of the city from a dark past that is still so recent. We didn't all cry after tearing down a D.C. wall 20 years ago. We don't face a huge struggle to reinvent ourselves and forget about the past as a city or country. We have a dark history but it's older and more forgettable and just..different. It's hard to walk through a street in Atlanta and be reminded of slavery. As for more recent history, at least we have the Lincoln memorial which reminds you of Martin Luther King's legacy and his "I have a Dream" speech. I don't think you can attach many negative connotations to D.C's monuments and buildings the way you can in Berlin. If a large portion of the building stock were occupied by the equivalent of Nazis then I suppose I could see it. If we build bland modern architecture here, it's for the sake of efficiency. In Berlin, I think it's an attempt to gain neutrality from having too much dark history. Berlin was the flagship city and even if buildings weren't built by nazis, so many of them were occupied by them. A building doesn't have to be built in that time period for it to have bad historical significance. No one in Berlin really wants to discuss the dark past these days, and who in the world can blame them? Here's a traveler who has come to town for the first time as Berlin struggles to put itself back on the map as a major destination for business travelers and tourists, and the first thing he wants to do is find the site of the bunker where Hitler killed himself in 1945 as Russian troops bore down? At this stage of history, Berliners are understandably reluctant to continue confronting the past. I was aware of the potential for cultural faux pas I presented in insisting on finding that one awful place. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E01E0DA1539F933A15752C0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1 I thought this was interesting: Why did you leave Storefront? Three exhibitions at Storefront really influenced me to leave: first, one from Sarajevo called Warchitecture, about “urbicide” during the Balkan war—the destruction of the city’s history and culture through that of the buildings that embody them. Then Basilico Beirut, photographs of the city’s downtown one year after the Lebanese civil war ended but before the buildings were demolished for redevelopment. And The New American Ghetto, by Camilo Jose Vergara. They showed me that architecture was not just about construction: it also has a dark side that is about destruction. It was in this destruction that I saw the humanity of architecture and the reality of what architecture is. http://www.metropolismag.com/story/20051219/the-dark-side-of-architecture This basically sums it up: Even a New Yorker is struck by the raw, often-confusing, always impressive energy of the new Berlin. Whenever I return to Berlin, I am again struck by this. Yet, exciting as the capital’s new architecture and energy may be, the past is a relentless intruder, the engine that drives its current transformations. This text, published in the fall 2001 issue of the American Academy’s Berlin Journal, is based on an article published in the September 10, 2001, edition of Newsweek International. http://www.carnegiehall.org/berlininlights/today/berlinview_essay.html
January 25, 200916 yr If there were historical revisionists at Germany's helm, they've been done a huge favor by allied bombs and butt-ugly communist-era architecture. The former cleared the way for the latter and nobody wants to see the latter stay. So much of the Soviet building stock is horrible on the eyes and even worse on the occupants and on the whole not worth the bother of restoration. I agree that it should be replaces with something forward-looking. Short of that, it should embody the best of what's happened. Otherwise it will end up as dated and irrelevant as the horrible thing it's replacing.
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