Can anyone logically explain where the "invisible r" that gets pronounced in words like wash comes from? Or is my grandfather just that unique?

 

It's completely horrible.  But not as bad as when people from Cleveland mispronounce milk as "melk".

^Oh god I had blocked out "melk" and "pellow" since moving to Cincy. So frustrating.

My mom was raised in Northeast Ohio (Wooster) but lived in Pittsburgh for 5 years after that. For the next forty years she then proceeded to take "Yinz" with her to California and New Jersey.

 

p.s. I'll drink "melk" over "meeeillk" any day.

I like craiglist "for sale" ads that have "need gone" in them.

^I find Minnesota is sort of the like the UP of Michigan. It's its own weird world...

 

It has Great Lakes elements, but something else is thrown into it.

 

Yeah, it is really quite strange.  The other quirky part of that culture that frustrates a lot of people and is actually kind of it's own Minnesota thing is "Minnesota Nice".  You see it all the time and my brother lived in Minneapolis for quite a few years and has a lot of stories on it.  Us being from Iowa you find it every once in a while but it's a lot more prevalent up there.  Usually in Iowa people are fairly straight forward, take for example about work.

 

In my experience and my brother's experience in Iowa / Cedar Rapids area, your foreman will say, "I don't know yet if we will need you for work tomorrow because we are slowing down a bit, but I will call you at 6:00 am to let you know either way."

 

In Minneapolis, he would run into his bosses saying something to the degree of "I will let you know about work", then say behind the guy's back "Well I just feel bad for the guy ya know, we don't have any work for him in the next week".  But instead of calling him to let them know that, they just never get in touch with the person and leave them hanging.  Kind of like fronting to your face then stabbing in the back.  That's the more or less definition of "Minnesota Nice".

I still look down from my perch of lofty linguistic superiority on benighted Midwesterners for two major reasons:

 

(1) No, your car does not "need towed," your sink does not "need fixed," that project does not "need funded," and your grass does not "need mowed."

 

(2) Apostrophes are not as ubiquitous as you think they are.  There are no such stores as Sears' or JC Penney's (there also may not be such a thing as Sears or JC Penney in another few years, but there never were stores called Sears' or JC Penney's).  You cannot order a pizza from East of Chicago's.  (I could make a similar point about plural's, but the a'postrophe's are the wor'st.)

 

Maybe I should cross-post this to the pet peeves thread.

 

To #1, how would you say those things?

 

"My car needs towing" or "My car needs to be towed" or another way? Just curious? I've heard all these variations.

 

Both of those are correct.  Neither acts like a cheese grater upon erudite ears.

I've definitely lost some of my CLE accent since spending 4 years in Oxford and 5 years in Columbus. Now when I go home to visit, I can really hear it.

 

Second this. I didn't notice how strong the accent was on Lake Erie until I moved away from Lake Erie. Now it's a total culture shock any time I visit Detroit and Toledo. I like the accent though and think it sounds cute on women. Then again, I also really like the Long Island accent. I tend to be into the Great Lakes and Long Island/Northern New Jersey accents the most. I think they are America's sexiest accents. I think most people deep down have an accent they're into. Voice and accent are real turn ons that get overlooked too much by dating researchers who seem to focus mostly on looks, personality, height, status, living situation, etc. I rank voice and accent right near the top of things I look for in a partner, and it's a make or break thing for me. I've got to be into the voice before anything else. Maybe I'm different, but I think most people care about it more than they realize. You see it all the time with the way Americans fetishize European and Australian accents. Why not Canadian? I think Toronto natives have a great accent, and the unique French-Canadian accent in Montreal is top notch. Europe gets too much love, though I'll admit I've probably fallen for some girls at least partially due to their accents from Spain and Italy. Weirdly, I'm turned off by the British and Australian accents, which probably makes me atypical for Americans. This is also why online dating/Tinder is such a crapshoot and people complain about lacking sexual chemistry even though they are physically attracted to how someone looks. You've got to hear somebody's voice to know if you're into them...

 

*In the Bay, we don't really have any local accents. It seems like in global, cosmopolitan cities, accents soften or entirely disappear over time. Regional accents seem strongest in cities with lots of natives.

 

Definitely this. My neighbor is from New Zealand so he's got that kiwi accent. Plus he's part Maori. So I'd say, to me at least, it ups his sexiness factor quite a bit.

When I talk to my friends and family members I notice a definite accent in Cedar Rapids but even more so in North Iowa.  It's easy for me to spot out now that I have lived in Cincinnati a few years.  Cincinnati definitely sounds a touch "southern" when I think of it.  Iowa is more Minnesota sounding.  The main words are "Oh sure" and "you betcha" and when reacting to some sort of news "ohh yeahhh!?" in that Fargo accent but, hard to explain.

 

I think when people say "needs towed" the actual correct way to say it is "I need to tow my car".  Or maybe, "My vehicle needs a tow".  Not certain if that is correct though.  "needs towed" is like using a verb as a noun pre-fix to a verb

 

When I lived in Minneapolis I thought the "you betcha" came across as "southerny" in a over-the-top nice kind of way. I went to Mississippi State University so I'm very familiar with the over-the-top hospitality (not that it wasn't nice at some times). "Yes," "sure," or even "you bet" will do.

 

Another phrase that stood out to me, was "we're going to Target, are you coming with?" or "going to Target, come with." ... In Cincinnati, we'd say "I'm running to Kroger, come with me." or "I'm running to Kroger, do you want to come with me?" ... I understand it's just a regional thing, but before I commit - I'd like to know who is going, because my answer could be based on that info alone. lol

 

I can recall on at least 3 or 4 occasions, my employees would express to me that they assumed I had a problem with them or just didn't like them as a person. It was very odd. I just wrote it off as 2 different cultures/dialogues as Minneapolitans seem to be more laid back. Usually the conversation would follow "is there something I did wrong?"

The owner of the company I work for is British, and for a long time I felt that he thought there was something wrong with me until I looked it up.  Instead of saying, "How's it going?", he would say, "You alright?".  In the USA, we take that as "Yeah I am alright, is there something wrong?", where as in England, it's their way of saying, "How's it going?".  So now I just respond, "I'm good thank you and you?".  Ha ha weird how that works.

 

To your point, I think Upper Midwest people tend to be too nice at times, which causes issues for a lot of people who aren't familiar with it.  And as they are "too nice", it comes off sort of passive aggressive like, "You don't understand my cold shoulder already?".  So I think when someone is direct with people saying, "well who all is going to be there?", they may think this is passive aggressiveness and a hint that you don't want to go becasue of them (person who is asking), not that you actually want to know who is going!

 

I tell this to my girlfriend because she tends to do this a lot with her friends and even has to myself a lot of times.  If you don't want to go or don't feel like doing this or that, just say it!  Because then you end up making plans around it then at the last second it is cancelled and then we both look flakey, or you end up going and are having a horrible time.  It's good to always be up front in my opinion.  Even worse when this happens in business situations... "Oh yeah, well this didn't ship on the date we said it would so that's why it hasn't arrived yet..." "Well, you should have let me know right away so I can let the customer know so they can plan ahead!"

I grew up outside Youngstown, and when I moved to Cincy, the possessivification of brands there drove me up a wall. It's not Kroger's or Meijer's or any other's. lol. Incidentally, I did grow up referring to JC Penney as "Penneys". Haha

 

You can probably appreciate the humor in this.  I grew up in western Stark County, and moved to Youngstown for a job after college.  When my grandma would come to visit, we might go get groceries, and we'd go to Sparkle.  My grandma always called it "Sparkles" or I suppose it was actually "Sparkle's," but you can't hear the apostrophe.

 

Again, growing up in western Stark County, I didn't even know that "noun needs verbed" was wrong.

Again, growing up in western Stark County, I didn't even know that "noun needs verbed" was wrong.

 

It's just a contraction for a passive voice infinitive, right?  Add "to be" and the grammar is fine.  Basically the "to be" is assumed.

I still get tripped up when I hear a Cincinnatian say "please?"instead of "I'm sorry?" or "could you repeat that?" I've only come across it a very small number of times, generally with older people, but it's the one thing that really sticks out as 'foreign' when I hear Cincinnatians speak.

 

Well other than the dreaded Kroger's. Thank god Clevelanders and Pittsburghers don't say "Giant Eagle's", LOL! The unnecessary "'s" is up there for me with needlessly putting "the" in front of proper nouns (THE Millennium Force), but that seems to be more of a case of misinformation than a particular dialect.

You've hinted at one of my biggest annoyances as an avid roller coaster enthusiast. The dreaded "The" before a ride's name. I don't know what makes it so prominent in that industry, but it's everywhere. The Millennium Force. The Magnum. The Raptor. The Banshee. The Batman. I blame that on Six Flags though for naming half their rides indistinguishable superhero names. Six Flags New England having two Batman themed coasters, one of which has changed names, is confusing. Six Flags Great Adventure having three Batman themed rides before removing Batman and Robin: The Chiller was confusing.

I can't stand when people say "vee-HICK-el" instead of "VEE-uh-cal." I don't know, it just sounds uneducated to me. 

You've hinted at one of my biggest annoyances as an avid roller coaster enthusiast. The dreaded "The" before a ride's name. I don't know what makes it so prominent in that industry, but it's everywhere. The Millennium Force. The Magnum. The Raptor. The Banshee. The Batman. I blame that on Six Flags though for naming half their rides indistinguishable superhero names. Six Flags New England having two Batman themed coasters, one of which has changed names, is confusing. Six Flags Great Adventure having three Batman themed rides before removing Batman and Robin: The Chiller was confusing.

 

Yeah, that's exactly where I first noticed it and it bothers me in any context now. Even if it's not Six Flags' fault for starting the trend, I feel like we should blame them for it anyway  :evil:.

You've hinted at one of my biggest annoyances as an avid roller coaster enthusiast. The dreaded "The" before a ride's name. I don't know what makes it so prominent in that industry, but it's everywhere. The Millennium Force. The Magnum. The Raptor. The Banshee. The Batman. I blame that on Six Flags though for naming half their rides indistinguishable superhero names. Six Flags New England having two Batman themed coasters, one of which has changed names, is confusing. Six Flags Great Adventure having three Batman themed rides before removing Batman and Robin: The Chiller was confusing.

 

Yeah, that's exactly where I first noticed it and it bothers me in any context now. Even if it's not Six Flags' fault for starting the trend, I feel like we should blame them for it anyway  :evil:.

 

... an area this really causes confusion is Redbox/Netflix/books ... i.e. "The Davinci Code": Should I go to the T's or D's? It gets me everytime. lol

I hate that. Some places sort including "the" as "T" and some disregard it. I don't get why you'd disregard it though. It's a word...it starts with the letter "T" it should be categorized as such.

This discussion has reminded me of something else that seems to have come about since I moved to Ohio but I can't really say for certain if that's the case.

 

But that's the inability for people to realize how to pluralize a proper noun that ends in an S. My last name is Michaels. We are not "the Michaels (said as a plural of Michael)." We are not the Michaels' or the Michael's. We are the Michaelses as stupid as that sounds and looks. Or "the Michaels family." Bugs me every time. "We're going over the Michaels for dinner." No you're not since that's not a place.

 

I feel this thread is making me very bitter...

^ That one is definitely not unique to Ohio

Like I said, I noticed it more when we moved but I was also young so I wasn't sure if it was just growing up and realizing it or if there was actually a difference.

BTW the s at the end of a prominent store name isn't just found in Cincinnati: http://www.head-fi.org/t/157721/chicago-slang-for-any-in-coming-people-to-our-great-city

 

^When we moved we moved to the southern burbs and noticed it seemed like it was predominantly said by people who moved from the first ring burbs or the Youngstown area.

 

I've been knee deep in Parma peeps for over 40 years. I don't talk like the example and I've never heard anyone talk like this.

 

I think many eastsiders and some westsiders have difficulty hearing others speech because their noses are constantly pointed up at a 45 degree angle. ;)

 

 

 

 

Lol, hey now, I'm from Broadview Heights, not exactly the most glamorous suburb of Cleveland.

 

It's funny, I've stopped noticing regional dialects as much since I've lived in such varying places. Central Massachusetts (my entire family is from Salem so they all had Boston accents), suburban Cleveland, Cincinnati, Texas, Savannah, etc. With the exception of blatantly incorrect things like "noun needs verbed" I generally don't notice much.

What's kinda sad is ... eventually all regional dialect will fade (imo). :(

How so? That's literally never happened in the history of speech. Speech patterns develop at a certain age and no amount of moving beyond that age will change them dramatically. The way you form sounds is very much something ingrained in your physical abilities based on what language/dialect you learn first. This is always going to be the case since it's the way the human body works.

All currently-existing regional dialects will fade, but new regional dialects will emerge.  Dialects are like the people that speak them.  They grow and die, they blend with others and get passed on in part to succeeding generations.  There will still be a Midwestern accent (or accent family) in 200 years, but it will probably sound noticeably different than today's Midwestern accent.

I remember reading about how what we now consider the southern accent is actually pretty similar to the British accent that existed back when they first started settling the Americas. It makes me chuckle every time I think about it.

I'd bet that even the west side of Cincinnati has changed just within the last 30 years.

 

 

I remember reading about how what we now consider the southern accent is actually pretty similar to the British accent that existed back when they first started settling the Americas. It makes me chuckle every time I think about it.

 

I read the same thing.

 

I was doing some Googling and there was a column written by someone that stated the southern accent is fading with so many transplants moving south.

I read that the colonial era British/New England accent was essentially Yosemite Sam.

I just love picturing this ultra formal British royalty sipping their afternoon tea and speaking like a bunch of southern rednecks. It brightens my day.

Oh yeah things change. I work in Lancaster now and a new accent has popped up in the past 10 years there. I call it the "Wascally Wabbit" because it kinda sounds like Elmer Fudd. And you're like, "Elmer Fudd is old! That's nothing new." When I lived in Lancaster 16-17 years ago nobody talked like that. And when I went to SSU in Portsmouth during the early 2000s there were a lot of students from SE Ohio and also no one had that accent.

 

I never hear anyone over 30 with the accent either. One of my employees has it (sorta) and guess what... now I catch myself doing it! Accents of course are contagious. Yesterday I heard someone on the South Side of Columbus doing it as well. It's spreading.

A lot of Australians have gotten into Country Music over the past 10-20 years, but nobody from England.  Unless, of course, you count this ridiculous genre parody recorded by The Rolling Stones back around 1979:

 

Rarely did The Rolling Stones record a solidly "British" song -- 20+ albums and there was little discussion of British issues, London or the English landscape, etc..  Basically their entire source of material was the Great American Songbook, American regional dialects, and of course American mythology like New Orleans slave traders and pop culture like the Kennedy Assassination and the Boston Strangler. 

It's like the song started as a regular Stones song when they wrote the chorus, then on a tour bus ride through the South they turned on the radio and the song got changed to insular small-town radio station stuff when they wrote the verses. How about Ronnie on the pedal steel? I didn't know he could play that.

Behold Toledo's legendary mayor, Carty Finkbeiner. He served a total of four terms and repped the Great Lakes accent hard...

 

 

 

 

 

*Some Carty hater put a bunch of random, nonsensical text on the last one.

I was over at my grandparents' place helping them set up for Christmas today, and I noticed how distinctive my grandpa's dialect is. It's definitely Great Lakes-y, but you can tell he was raised by Italian immigrants and he sprinkles a little bit of Pittsburghese on top from when he commuted between CLE and PGH for work. He could say something like "On Sundee I sat on the Davenport cutting kewpons with the skissors and I tied 'em together with my gumbands". I don't know how much of it is actually dialectical and how much is just archaic!

 

Also, the Amish have a pretty distinctive accent. I was down in Holmes County on Wednesday, and it's pretty obvious when you hear an Amish person speak, although I'm sure a lot of it has to do with the fact that most Amish are bilingual. It's definitely a rural accent, but not the stereotypical twangy accent. A lot more, well, German or Scandinavian, which makes sense given their heritage.

I was over at my grandparents' place helping them set up for Christmas today, and I noticed how distinctive my grandpa's dialect is. It's definitely Great Lakes-y, but you can tell he was raised by Italian immigrants and he sprinkles a little bit of Pittsburghese on top from when he commuted between CLE and PGH for work. He could say something like "On Sundee I sat on the Davenport cutting kewpons with the skissors and I tied 'em together with my gumbands". I don't know how much of it is actually dialectical and how much is just archaic!

 

Also, the Amish have a pretty distinctive accent. I was down in Holmes County on Wednesday, and it's pretty obvious when you hear an Amish person speak, although I'm sure a lot of it has to do with the fact that most Amish are bilingual. It's definitely a rural accent, but not the stereotypical twangy accent. A lot more, well, German or Scandinavian, which makes sense given their heritage.

 

I remember--vaguely--that my great-grandma had a slightly different accent, and she was born and raised in Stark County.  I can only give one example, and like you, I'm not sure if it's actually part of the dialect, or just archaic.  Instead of "motorcycle" it was "motorsackle"  The rest of the accent I couldn't pin down, but I'd know it if I heard it. (one time, on a bus in Youngstown, an old guy started talking, and I had the strongest flashback of my great-grandma from when I was a kid, because he had the same accent)

 

As for the Amish, they are indeed bilingual, and English isn't their first language.  I believe their first language is German-based, similar to how Creole French is French-based.

I've definitely lost some of my CLE accent since spending 4 years in Oxford and 5 years in Columbus. Now when I go home to visit, I can really hear it.

 

Where in CLE are you from?  I find that makes a huge difference in this regional dialect conversation.

 

East suburbs. Mayfield HS. Never noticed a big east side/west side difference in speech though, but then again I've never spent much time on the west side. The big thing I notice when I come home is the 'A' in words like "happy" and "accent." As in, "I'm from Cleveland so I don't have an AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAcent."

 

Another thing some of my Cincinnati and Columbus friends have pointed out is that I say the word "both" as if I'm talking about a "bowl" of soup. Bowlth.

 

Also, for some of you who were wondering why calling JCPenney "Penney's" is done everywhere, and not just in Cincinnati where where they call Kroger "Kroger's," it's because JCPenney used to call themselves Penney's until 1971.

 

That changed 18 years before my birth. I guess maybe it was through my mom that I learned "JC Penneys" possibly.

 

I say "bowlth" as well and I notice it when I say it and have actively tried to change it. For some reason it's one of the only things I haven't been able to actively change by forcing myself to say it correctly.

That changed 18 years before my birth. I guess maybe it was through my mom that I learned "JC Penneys" possibly.

 

My grandparents and even my mom still refer to Macy's as May Company from time to time, so it's very likely that's the same reason why the Penneys thing has stuck around still. I know I've always called it Penneys.

That changed 18 years before my birth. I guess maybe it was through my mom that I learned "JC Penneys" possibly.

 

My grandparents and even my mom still refer to Macy's as May Company from time to time, so it's very likely that's the same reason why the Penneys thing has stuck around still. I know I've always called it Penneys.

 

Ha! Yeah I remember my mom and grandma ignoring the existance of Dillards and Kauffmans and all these stores, and instead referring to stores which no longer existed as of the early 90s. Kind of bizarre really. I don't know anyone who still refers to their at&t phone service as Cingular.

The Amish speak dietsch better known as Pennsylvania Dutch. It's a German dialect.

I've definitely lost some of my CLE accent since spending 4 years in Oxford and 5 years in Columbus. Now when I go home to visit, I can really hear it.

 

Where in CLE are you from?  I find that makes a huge difference in this regional dialect conversation.

 

East suburbs. Mayfield HS. Never noticed a big east side/west side difference in speech though, but then again I've never spent much time on the west side. The big thing I notice when I come home is the 'A' in words like "happy" and "accent." As in, "I'm from Cleveland so I don't have an AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAcent."

 

Another thing some of my Cincinnati and Columbus friends have pointed out is that I say the word "both" as if I'm talking about a "bowl" of soup. Bowlth.

 

Also, for some of you who were wondering why calling JCPenney "Penney's" is done everywhere, and not just in Cincinnati where where they call Kroger "Kroger's," it's because JCPenney used to call themselves Penney's until 1971.

 

 

I've heard the 'bowlth' thing from people from near Toledo/Sandusky.

 

I grew up saying just 'Penneys'. not even the JC in front of it. Good to know I'm not crazy.

During my last trip to Cleveland I heard two instances of the "Pittsburgh Participle"; for example, a realtor pointed out the condition of a hallway with the words, "The hall needs painted." He said he was born in Lakewood; the other person who used the participle was born in Streetsboro. Neither one said "yinz".

 

Is Pittsburghese spreading?

I don't think it's a Pittsburgh thing as much as it's an Appalachian thing. "The hall needs painted" sounds like something I would say. I'm not Appalachian but generations back, my family was and when you're a little kid, learning how to speak, your family is your biggest influence. I think some patterns catch on because it's just more efficient. There's no reason to say, "The hall needs to be painted" when you can get the exact same point across by saying something shorter. No valuable information is lost, in the process. I'm assuming that's the alternative way to say it, anyway.

 

My great grandma would say things like, "Yinz" and "George Bewsh" instead of George Bush. We used to make fun of her all the time, hehe. She grew up near Portsmouth, OH.

I think some patterns catch on because it's just more efficient. There's no reason to say, "The hall needs to be painted" when you can get the exact same point across by saying something shorter. No valuable information is lost, in the process. I'm assuming that's the alternative way to say it, anyway.

 

"The hall needs painting" - a gerund construction, would be just as efficient and also correct English; it's that past participle use that's fascinating to me.  I know a woman from Nantyglow, PA, who uses it.  I wonder if it's a correct usage in German or Welsh. 

The valuable information that's lost in a, "the hall needs painted" sentence is the passing on the rules of the English language. It also is a great way to make a region sound uneducated to outsiders. Ohio gets a bad rap from the east and west coast as it is and doesn't need to fuel the fire by utilizing glaringly incorrect English.

"Talk to people from all over the Greater Cleveland area and you'll hear two things: A distinct Cleveland accent (sorry, folks), and a chorus of denials that such an accent exists. So let's first dispense with the fiction that Clevelanders don't speak in a way that is noticeable to anyone who grew up elsewhere, including other regions of Ohio. We do. And it is. How it got here, how it developed, and how it has spread over time has fascinated linguists for years. "And as it turns out, Cleveland is one of a dozen or so cities along the Great Lakes that have, over the past half century, been part of the largest transformation of spoken English in more than a thousand years.

 

http://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/the-origins-and-evolution-of-the-cleveland-accent-yes-you-have-an-accent-cleveland/Content?oid=4949852

^ i view the Cleveland accent as a more toned down version of the Milwaukee/Chicago accent. 

^ I've always called it a "Great Lakes accent." People from northern Ohio sound more like people from Michigan or Chicago than they do people from southern Ohio (who truly have no accent, aside from a few locales like Hamilton or Amelia where southern accents somehow creep above the Mason-Dixon).