Cheap construction is cheap construction, even though cheap sometimes works out and expensive sometimes doesn't.

Cheap construction is cheap construction, even though cheap sometimes works out and expensive sometimes doesn't.

 

I was actually privy to an early look. Nothing about the development give me the impression that anything was being done in haste or cheaply. Around 2003, I though Tremont Pointe (MIGHT have the wrong name, mixed-income housing right off 271) was going to be cheaply done, and I was completely wrong. In my estimate the Edison seems better off, more innovative, and attractive as well.

What's the definition of "cheap construction"? It sounds like many of the things being brought up are because of inexperienced labor. Yes, lumber quality is not great in some cases, but everyone is using the same products. The same with drywall. You are going to have a lot of cost just getting to your finishes. There you can skimp on cabinet quality and low cost flooring.

I was actually privy to an early look. Nothing about the development give me the impression that anything was being done in haste or cheaply. Around 2003, I though Tremont Pointe (MIGHT have the wrong name, mixed-income housing right off 271) was going to be cheaply done, and I was completely wrong. In my estimate the Edison seems better off, more innovative, and attractive as well.

 

You mean I-490?

Yes yes, my apologies

First look: Astoria Cafe & Market opens in Cleveland's Gordon Square (photos)

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Long before chefs starting serving up terms like artisanal and hand-crafted, you could actually find such items easily in the area's import shops. For decades, they were suppliers for Old World cooking - done in the home, by immigrants and first-generation members of Cleveland's rich ethnic community.

 

Astoria Market and Cafe - 5417 Detroit Ave., Cleveland -- sets out to continue that connection, but also turn new people on to Old World cuisine while providing a new take on it all.

 

The just-opened 5,000-square-foot space in Gordon Square comes with a bar-restaurant on one side and a market that specializes in cheeses, meats and Mediterranean imports on the other. The twist here, of course, is you can order off the restaurant menu or buy something in the market and bring it to the restaurant.

 

 

http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2016/12/first_look_astoria_cafe_market.html#incart_m-rpt-2

This property is proposed to be a parking lot. The trees/grassy area to the right has already been removed. Has this 106-year-old building also been demolished?

 

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/7306-Detroit-Ave_Cleveland_OH_44102_M36040-45622

 

Board of Zoning Appeals

MONDAY, JANUARY 9, 2017

9:30

Calendar No. 16-301: 7306 Detroit Avenue Ward 15

Matt Zone

18 Notices

7306 Company LLC., owner, proposes to construct a parking lot in a K2 Local Retail Business District

and a Pedestrian Retail Overlay District (PRO). The owner appeals for relief from the strict

application of the following sections of the Cleveland Codified Ordinances:

1. Section 349.07(b) which states that accessory off-street parking spaces shall be provided with

wheel or bumper guards and none are proposed.

2. Section 349.08 which states that where accessory off street parking spaces are provided and

are located on a lot that is adjacent a lot containing dwelling units, such parking spaces shall

be screened form all lots containing dwellings units by an opaque wall, a uniformly painted

fence of fire-resistant material or a strip of land at least four feet wide and densely planted

with shrubs that form a dense screen year round. Such wall, fence or shrub shall be at least

(3) three feet but nor more than (6) six feet six (6) inches in height.

3. Section 358.05(a)(2) which states that in a Local Retail Business District fences in actual front

yards and side street yards shall not exceed four (4) feet in height and shall be at least 50%

open. (Filed November 28, 2016)

 

The building is being renovated. The parking lot will be the space on the right. The trees were already removed.

Whew! :)

This is just east of Banter. Good to see activity pushing this way.

The building already has a ton of new windows. I hear it is a couple guys fixing it up and are hoping to sell it. The parking lot was on design review a few weeks ago. Certainly no indication it is being demolished.

New owner has no plans to sell the building.  He's renovating the building & plans to lease it out. Parking being added to help in that process. He also bought & is renovating house directly behind that building on that corner, no demo is happening here

Oh thank god he bought that house too. It has been so up in the air. Great news!

 

Anyone know what the owner plans to do with the building ultimately? The rumors I've heard are very inconsistent. Restaurant on the bottom floor with offices above, all offices, restaurant with apartments above, etc.

Been watching the Battery Park power house building.

 

There are a bunch of brewing tanks being set up inside.

 

Anyone one know who is coming in there? Is it just a brewing facility or will be a brew pub venture?

Been watching the Battery Park power house building.

 

There are a bunch of brewing tanks being set up inside.

 

Anyone one know who is coming in there? Is it just a brewing facility or will be a brew pub venture?

 

From what I was told, it will start out as a tap house with plans for food down the road. Currently scheduled to open in spring. I haven't heard the name of the brewery yet.

Been watching the Battery Park power house building.

 

There are a bunch of brewing tanks being set up inside.

 

Anyone one know who is coming in there? Is it just a brewing facility or will be a brew pub venture?

 

From what I was told, it will start out as a tap house with plans for food down the road. Currently scheduled to open in spring. I haven't heard the name of the brewery yet.

 

Here's some news on it:

 

Terrestrial Brewing Company to Activate the Battery Park Powerhouse

 

Since the Battery Park neighborhood was developed more than 10 years ago, the eastern half of the historic smokestack-topped powerhouse building has remained vacant. That changed this fall when Terrestrial Brewing Company (7524 Father Frascati) began construction within those red brick walls. The project, more than two years in the making, will cross the finish line as soon as April, according to partners Ryan Bennett and Ralph Sgro.

 

 

The owners were attracted to the building, its location, and the proximity to Edgewater Park. The industrial building, formerly part of the Eveready Battery complex, has exposed brick walls, open rafters and unobstructed views of Lake Erie. But what appeals most to the owners is the number of current and future residents in the immediate area.

 

The 2,800-square-foot space will feature a unique layout, in which all the brewing equipment will be installed right down the middle of the room. Guests will be able to sit at a counter positioned immediately next to the brewhouse and the fermenters. All the plumbing and connections will be in plain sight.

 

 

Will be pet friendly too, both inside and out!  Big thumbs up to that!

I don't know if any of you follow Alan Glazen on FB but he had a rousing discussion yesterday about how "awful" he thinks all the colorful condo construction is in Gordon-Square and questions why money is being wasted building these buildings. There were a lot of comments in the post from others about shoddy construction and why don't people just buy houses. I was one of the lone voices trying to explain that young people don't want the costs and responsibilities of a house, that walkability is a big thing and that's why they don't want to live in Strongsville, etc. But maybe some UO people have other good perspectives on the particular properties that could be added there (or here). Are those places, the ones down by Graffiti, really shoddy and cheaply built?

I don't know if any of you follow Alan Glazen on FB but he had a rousing discussion yesterday about how "awful" he thinks all the colorful condo construction is in Gordon-Square and questions why money is being wasted building these buildings. There were a lot of comments in the post from others about shoddy construction and why don't people just buy houses. I was one of the lone voices trying to explain that young people don't want the costs and responsibilities of a house, that walkability is a big thing and that's why they don't want to live in Strongsville, etc. But maybe some UO people have other good perspectives on the particular properties that could be added there (or here). Are those places, the ones down by Graffiti, really shoddy and cheaply built?

 

 

I lived over there for 5 years.  I dont have any problem with the colors.  That was the last thing on my mind when purchasing, in fact, i always enjoyed the different styles of units on my walks.  Vintage doesn't build their units like a brick tank, like say, the Shoreway building....there are definitely some flaw in the interior construction.  But i wouldnt go all the way to say they are shoddy.  In five years, i didnt have a single interior issue with the heating/cooling/water/waste...and we sold with no issues from the buyers inspector.  But there were some things that could be improved.  Part of it is that when i moved in...it was pretty much all young people without kids, alot of first time home buyers. There were a few older folks who took a risk and may have been previous home owners.  But Vintage was essentially offering a young entry level worker an unobstructed lake and city view, park access, city amenities for a really affordable price.  I would venture to say most of us had blinders on to quality of build.  As BP continued to develop, in came the empty nesters and boomers and they have caused a pretty big stink with Vintage, as this isnt their first rodeo with homebuying... but to be honest, from when i bought to when i sold, i couldnt really have asked for more.

 

 

 

I don't know if any of you follow Alan Glazen on FB but he had a rousing discussion yesterday about how "awful" he thinks all the colorful condo construction is in Gordon-Square and questions why money is being wasted building these buildings. There were a lot of comments in the post from others about shoddy construction and why don't people just buy houses. I was one of the lone voices trying to explain that young people don't want the costs and responsibilities of a house, that walkability is a big thing and that's why they don't want to live in Strongsville, etc. But maybe some UO people have other good perspectives on the particular properties that could be added there (or here). Are those places, the ones down by Graffiti, really shoddy and cheaply built?

 

You weren't alone in that discussion!  I was right there with you.  (I'm the guy on Father Caruso :)  )

 

My take-aways from that talk:

 

1) OK, some people don't like the color. ...chacun à son goût

 

2) Some people don't like new construction of any type.

 

3) Some people feel that tax abatements for new construction into the "cool" neighborhoods of Cleveland is starving growth in other neighborhoods

 

4)  Some people have had personal issues with poor condo construction and presume that all new build in the city is shoddy. THey put forward that theory without evidence.

 

5) Some people just really, really, really don't get the attraction of urban living.  The dude saying "But I could get a 4 bedroom in Strongsville for that price!"  or "Buy a nice car and drive to culture!"  #rollseyes

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The dude saying "But I could get a 4 bedroom in Strongsville for that price!"  or "Buy a nice car and drive to culture!"  #rollseyes

^The entirety of the city-data forum.

 

 

As someone who personally doesn't love what is commonly the style of new urban infill, I find BP to be on the decent end. I think the later phases are especially solid from an aesthetic standpoint (like the units at the corner of Frascati and W76). They're no Knez Homes, thankfully.

The dude saying "But I could get a 4 bedroom in Strongsville for that price!"  or "Buy a nice car and drive to culture!"  #rollseyes

^The entirety of the city-data forum.

 

 

As someone who personally doesn't love what is commonly the style of new urban infill, I find BP to be on the decent end. I think the later phases are especially solid from an aesthetic standpoint (like the units at the corner of Frascati and W76). They're no Knez Homes, thankfully.

 

Truth.  Those Knez townhomes in downtown Willoughby are reason enough to not let them try any more daring urban infill....

Anyone got an inside scoop on Cha in the BP powerhouse?

 

I heard a rumor (unverifiable) that they were close to closing.  :(

That's sad...place looks good on their website.

I know I stopped in to check out the building one night when I was in town (March of 2014)...

Not sure what was in there at the time...wine bar perhaps?

Moral of the story is that it was empty...at 9pm on a Thursday.

Maybe the location is almost too 'hidden?'

If I hadn't read about the entire BP complex on UO I know I wouldn't have realized the building existed and was open to the public.

Just a random observation.

Anyone got an inside scoop on Cha in the BP powerhouse?

 

I heard a rumor (unverifiable) that they were close to closing.  :(

 

I am not sure about this.  WHile i lived there, people always speculated that Cha and Graffiti would both close because there was never anyone there, especially on weeknights.  But they do parties/events  consistently  and when the weather is nice in summer they get good crowds.  So i guess my answer is I dont know, there was speculation two years ago it wasnt working out.  The problem with business owners that see that area is they look at Battery Park and see dollar signs.  There are only a couple hundred units in the immediate area there.  They arent going to eat out every night and if they do, they will likely go several places. 

 

If i am a business owner, im not changing anything until the Edison opens.  250+ units down the street, you may as well wait and see if that moves the needle.

Anyone got an inside scoop on Cha in the BP powerhouse?

 

I heard a rumor (unverifiable) that they were close to closing.  :(

 

I am not sure about this.  WHile i lived there, people always speculated that Cha and Graffiti would both close because there was never anyone there, especially on weeknights.  But they do parties/events  consistently  and when the weather is nice in summer they get good crowds.  So i guess my answer is I dont know, there was speculation two years ago it wasnt working out.  The problem with business owners that see that area is they look at Battery Park and see dollar signs.  There are only a couple hundred units in the immediate area there.  They arent going to eat out every night and if they do, they will likely go several places. 

 

If i am a business owner, im not changing anything until the Edison opens.  250+ units down the street, you may as well wait and see if that moves the needle.

 

I go to Cha almost weekly for pizza. It will get crowded Thursday-Saturday but is slower on weeknights.

 

Their pizza is thin (which I love), but it is honestly some of the best pizza in the city, in my opinion. Decent wine list as well.

 

Just from my observations, I think Cha is profitable this year and won't need to grind its teeth to stay open until the Edison opens. I cannot speak to Graffiti, however.

I go to Cha almost weekly for pizza. It will get crowded Thursday-Saturday but is slower on weeknights.

 

Their pizza is thin (which I love), but it is honestly some of the best pizza in the city, in my opinion. Decent wine list as well.

 

Just from my observations, I think Cha is profitable this year and won't need to grind its teeth to stay open until the Edison opens. I cannot speak to Graffiti, however.

 

This has also been my experience with Cha.

 

As for Graffiti, every time I'm there I see a decent sized crowd. I'm hopeful it sticks around because I think their patio is one of the best in the neighborhood.

 

You'd think the BP establishments are doing well enough to sustain three (and four with Terrestrial Brewing). I'm curious how Vita Urbana is faring since it's a solid concept and of good quality, in my experience.

The problem with business owners that see that area is they look at Battery Park and see dollar signs.  There are only a couple hundred units in the immediate area there.  They arent going to eat out every night and if they do, they will likely go several places. 

 

If i am a business owner, im not changing anything until the Edison opens.  250+ units down the street, you may as well wait and see if that moves the needle.

 

This is where the area's resistance to higher-density housing really comes back and bites the behind.  There should already be a lot more people there but ugh, that would be too urban. 

The problem with business owners that see that area is they look at Battery Park and see dollar signs.  There are only a couple hundred units in the immediate area there.  They arent going to eat out every night and if they do, they will likely go several places. 

 

If i am a business owner, im not changing anything until the Edison opens.  250+ units down the street, you may as well wait and see if that moves the needle.

 

This is where the area's resistance to higher-density housing really comes back and bites the behind.  There should already be a lot more people there but ugh, that would be too urban. 

 

I can't speak to others opposition to density, but my main problem with it is when new projects (not renovation) are poorly constructed. I don't think they will age well past the abatements. Exterior maintenance will be an issue in the coming decades. BP has a lot of tall residences that will be very difficult down the road. If somebody wants to make friends quick in 2025, it would behoove them to invest in a boom lift--they'd be the most popular person in Battery Park!

 

Overall i believe density is good. Parking is a 20th Century issue and should not hinder a project. Cheap & untested materials however, should be a red flag.

The problem with business owners that see that area is they look at Battery Park and see dollar signs.  There are only a couple hundred units in the immediate area there.  They arent going to eat out every night and if they do, they will likely go several places. 

 

If i am a business owner, im not changing anything until the Edison opens.  250+ units down the street, you may as well wait and see if that moves the needle.

 

This is where the area's resistance to higher-density housing really comes back and bites the behind.  There should already be a lot more people there but ugh, that would be too urban. 

 

I can't speak to others opposition to density, but my main problem with it is when new projects (not renovation) are poorly constructed. I don't think they will age well past the abatements. Exterior maintenance will be an issue in the coming decades. BP has a lot of tall residences that will be very difficult down the road. If somebody wants to make friends quick in 2025, it would behoove them to invest in a boom lift--they'd be the most popular person in Battery Park!

 

Overall i believe density is good. Parking is a 20th Century issue and should not hinder a project. Cheap & untested materials however, should be a red flag.

 

For sure. However, I know there was also resistance to the EDEN construction on Detroit from a lot of the McKinley Terrace townhouse owners on W 81. They used opposition to increased density as a reason to oppose the building variances, but I suppose that could have just been the justification they used because they couldn't say "we don't want homeless people here."

For sure. However, I know there was also resistance to the EDEN construction on Detroit from a lot of the McKinley Terrace townhouse owners on W 81. They used opposition to increased density as a reason to oppose the building variances, but I suppose that could have just been the justification they used because they couldn't say "we don't want homeless people here."

 

That's unfortunate, as those are very distinct issues.  But the resistance to density is a constant refrain and we won't get far until it ends.  All these concepts are related:  low density impairs neighborhood businesses, which impairs the neighborhoods, which impairs the tax base, which impairs services as well as the funds available for future investment.  And then we say, well, development in Cleveland is just really tough.  At some point we have to address why.

I took my tour of the Edison on Tuesday and things are really coming along! Snapped a few photos of their model unit. They seem to be very busy, I think there were at least two or three other people on a tour at the same time I was. Also decided to sign a lease so I'll be moving into the neighborhood in August when the last building opens!

[quote author=327 link=topic=653.msg835978#msg835978 date=14848470

That's unfortunate, as those are very distinct issues.  But the resistance to density is a constant refrain and we won't get far until it ends.

 

It's doubtful that it's ever going to end.  In the midwest especially, it's seen as a negative, something to be endured not sought.  Other factors can cause it to be endured, but only so far.

 

To hope otherwise borders on a SimCity mindset.

I will also be taking a tour of the Edison on Friday, of the 2BR unit, I will try to snap some pics.

Cha closed.

 

Public notice on the front door. Something about taxes. :(

Cha closed.

 

Public notice on the front door. Something about taxes. :(

 

According to their FB page:

 

CHA spirits & pizza kitchen

February 10 at 12:24pm ·

Cha will be temporarily closed starting February 10th but we're looking forward to the opening of Terrestrial Brewing this spring next door.

No worry! We'll be back.

Cha closed.

 

Public notice on the front door. Something about taxes. :(

 

According to their FB page:

 

CHA spirits & pizza kitchen

February 10 at 12:24pm ·

Cha will be temporarily closed starting February 10th but we're looking forward to the opening of Terrestrial Brewing this spring next door.

No worry! We'll be back.

 

Well... I guess that's something ...

More densification, this time in Ohio City......

 

Lot Split for PPN# 002-14-059

Project Address: 1432 West 48th Street

Project Representative: Westleigh Harper, Horton Harper Architects

Lot Split Tabled (12/2/16): Commission requests the following before approval of this project – input from Fire Dept.; letter of support from Councilperson; letter

 

 

 

I haven't been on here in a while - kind of forgot about this. So some of the discussion is around the old Max Hayes site and why another school.  For my two cents I think putting another school there is stupid. A better plan would be development there of housing and mixed use. There's plenty of land that could probably be gotten along W 65th between Detroit and Dennison where the new school is. Turn that into an "Eductation Zone", clean it up, better police coverage because of the schools, and a reason to connect neighborhoods north to south. Instead we end up with fragmented schools all over the place. The model I am suggesting works. I have family members who spent their entire K -12 years in a large complex on one site of land. Several thousand students on the campus. It saved the district $$$ because buses weren't crossing paths all day with 5 or 6 students. All ages on one bus, student pick up at one time and then the parents are off the work. The school district had the ability to shift around class sizes in buildings to meet shifting demographics. Made sense in my opinion.

The owners of that place in BP include one of the original creators of Platform Brewing if I'm not mistaken. They will not have food but will rely on getting food from the 3 restaurants in the BP area - Cha, Graffiti and Vita Urbana. There was an article in Scene magazine a few weeks back.

Went on a walk today in this nice weather and I snapped a shot of the Edison project. This is looking up the new extension of Father Caruso that will extend through the middle of the development. The sheer scale of this project is huge.

 

^^Too bad they can't bury those utilities.  Looks like they've been there since the 30's!

^^Too bad they can't bury those utilities.  Looks like they've been there since the 30's!

 

Can't say for sure and I will have to go over and observe for myself, but those wires appear to be on the periphery of the development and even that utility pole in the center of the photo appears to route power lines down into tubes underground which, no doubt power the development.

While it's nice to see any sort of new building in Cleveland, I can't help but be a little disappointed at this whole complex. It feels very separated from the urban fabric, almost like a gated community. And not really any mixed use within walking distance like you see in some of the greatest neighborhoods, sure they have a few bars and restaurants in the area but nowhere to go get everyday necessities within a comfortable walking distance. Definitely built to car scale rather than pedestrian scale.

^ Not sure what your definition of a comfortable walking distance is - there's a Save a Lot, Family Dollar, Stockyard Meats, and a Rite Aid all within a few blocks.  Not to mention coffee, movies, ice cream, bank, and many more shops and restaurants.

 

The "gated" feel has more to do with the geography of the site along the Shoreway bluff I would think. 

I don't want to turn this into another retail thread, but I would think that retailers would follow the residential rather than be in place from the start of a major development. True, there could have been a few leasable commercial spaces in this development, but I think you will see them popping up across the street in a few places.

There are actually a couple of commercial spaces in the development. They left a portion of the warehouse under the big water tower standing and are actively leasing the space out. It's not visible from Breakwater, but it fronts the new Father Caruso. They are also going to uplight the water tower which will be really cool

Rumor has it that Vintage is planning apartments for the lot along Powerhouse Drive. Any information?

Rumor has it that Vintage is planning apartments for the lot along Powerhouse Drive. Any information?

 

I have no information, but I'd say it's about damn time. It's ridiculous that residents tried to hold up development on that prime lot because they wanted to keep their view, despite the fact that Vintage was always planning on building there as a part of Battery Park.

Rumor has it that Vintage is planning apartments for the lot along Powerhouse Drive. Any information?

 

I have no information, but I'd say it's about damn time. It's ridiculous that residents tried to hold up development on that prime lot because they wanted to keep their view, despite the fact that Vintage was always planning on building there as a part of Battery Park.

 

I would say this is not the case at all. Residents wanted this lot developed alot sooner than all the land north of Frascati, which took away everyones views and got me to list my property and move.  That vacant plot of land across from Cha was a Vintage decision, nobody elses.