The used car lots, A1 Luxury Cars, is already owned by Kertesz who is planning housing on both sides of Detroit in this area. The future Hawken school is planned west of here.

 

Are there any formal plans or anything from Kertesz? I know Haken owns Saigon, but not much has happened yet.

 

Re: Kertesz, not that I've seen. Hawken owns surrounding properties too and continues to raise funds, last I'd heard.

The SuperElectric art piece just went up on the corner of Lake and Detroit the other night.

 

Pretty bizarre. I would think it would be more appropriate by the Children’s museum. It would also be more protected from wind.  I don’t see this surviving a year in tact with wind storms, snow storms, and plow trucks.

From that angle it looks like part of a Burger King promotion.

The used car lots, A1 Luxury Cars, is already owned by Kertesz who is planning housing on both sides of Detroit in this area. The future Hawken school is planned west of here.

 

Are there any formal plans or anything from Kertesz? I know Haken owns Saigon, but not much has happened yet.

 

Re: Kertesz, not that I've seen. Hawken owns surrounding properties too and continues to raise funds, last I'd heard.

 

It sounds like the Hawken project is dead. They sent out an email August 9 saying, in part:

 

As you know, Hawken School announced in the fall of 2016 that we would be moving forward with plans to open an early childhood center in Gordon Square. Our intent was to create more opportunities for students from that area to gain early access to a Hawken education, and we determined that there was tremendous interest in the project on the part of young families. However, in spite of the enthusiasm for this project among many constituents, we regret to announce that we are unable to move forward with the renovation of Saigon Plaza building to create a Hawken Early Childhood Center in Gordon Square.

 

They sited lack of philanthropic and tax credit funding.

 

Dislike

Do we know when the road and sidewalk construction on Detroit will be finished?

 

 

 

Walked by Banter last night.

 

Their placard was something like "Yay! On street parking again!"

WHOA!!

 

 

Near West Design Review Case Report

 

DETROIT SHOREWAY APARTMENTS 2 (BREAKWATER)

 

Back Return to Case List | Start Over | Print Report (PDF format)

 

Project Information

 

Near West Case #  NW 2018-028

 

Address: Breakwater Avenue West 65th - West 58th

Company: NRP Group

Architect:

Description: 323 unit apartment building and parking garage.

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/brd/detailDR.php?ID=2957&CASE=NW%202018-028

This is a much different design than phase 1, but more units and more expensive to build.  Will be situated just south of breakwater and phase 1.

^ I'm assuming it's going to be much taller than phase I.

Good to see more development fill in south of Breakwater for Phase II, but I'm majorly bummed about that Hawken news.

I've been patiently waiting for this to make it's way out to the public. Everyone on this board will be pleased with this site plan and density.

Anyone know the full bounds of the site? Is it the entire south side of breakwater from 65 to 58?

Good to see more development fill in south of Breakwater for Phase II, but I'm majorly bummed about that Hawken news.

 

Yes, this is unfortunate. Hopefully the Saigon and adjacent properties can make their way to someone who can redevelop the site. This intersection needs some TLC.

Anyone know the full bounds of the site? Is it the entire south side of breakwater from 65 to 58?

 

The parcel map doesn't seem to give full indication. What's also interesting to me is that the former railroad spur parcel was acquired by the same firm building the Cyan Park townhomes. The ROW goes behind the NRP Group expansion site, behind the park itself, and curves NW toward the intersection of Breakwater and West 65th, thus providing the possibility for a dedicated hiking/biking path to Edgewater Park. But it also creates a boundary around the parcels along the south side of Breakwater Ave which haven't sold in years but appear to have new ownership names associated with them. I click on parcels in this area regularly and don't remember these names being associated with these parcels. So perhaps what happened here is what mjarboe[/member] wrote about recently -- instead of buying land, companies are buying the companies that own the land.

 

BTW, the Breakwater Ave parcel just east of the SE corner of West 65th lists to CROWN CASTLE TOWERS 09 LLC whose mailing address is a UPS Store mailbox in Cannonsburg, PA, near Pittsburgh. WTF.

Anyone know the full bounds of the site? Is it the entire south side of breakwater from 65 to 58?

 

The parcel map doesn't seem to give full indication. What's also interesting to me is that the former railroad spur parcel was acquired by the same firm building the Cyan Park townhomes. The ROW goes behind the NRP Group expansion site, behind the park itself, and curves NW toward the intersection of Breakwater and West 65th, thus providing the possibility for a dedicated hiking/biking path to Edgewater Park. But it also creates a boundary around the parcels along the south side of Breakwater Ave which haven't sold in years but appear to have new ownership names associated with them. I click on parcels in this area regularly and don't remember these names being associated with these parcels. So perhaps what happened here is what mjarboe[/member] wrote about recently -- instead of buying land, companies are buying the companies that own the land.

 

BTW, the Breakwater Ave parcel just east of the SE corner of West 65th lists to CROWN CASTLE TOWERS 09 LLC whose mailing address is a UPS Store mailbox in Cannonsburg, PA, near Pittsburgh. WTF.

 

Your assumption about the park to beach path in the w58th area is correct. I've hears firsthand that the plan (along with the renovation of Herman park) is to create a bike/walking path that connect the Herman Park area to the pathway going to Edgewater

Why not add a stop to the Cleveland State Line BRT, possibly by adding a pull-off area or even an intersection to the Shoreway Boulevard, what with all of the high-density development happening and potentially happening within a few minutes walk of this station?

 

BreakwaterBluffs area-labels by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

^ Would love to see that happen. Besides, the platform is already there!

Why not add a stop to the Cleveland State Line BRT, possibly by adding a pull-off area or even an intersection to the Shoreway Boulevard, what with all of the high-density development happening and potentially happening within a few minutes walk of this station?

 

BreakwaterBluffs area-labels by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

RTA’s service planning department is really responsive to suggestions. However, ODOT could have really done a lot more than they did to the shoreway. Without pedestrian infrastructure, cycling infrastructure, or traffic/speed calming measures along the now “boulevard” it probably isn’t viable to add stops. Hopefully more can be done than what has to connect all of these projects with the lake.

Assuming only 15/25 percent of residents, students and employees within 1,500 feet of a proposed bus station at West 54th/Cass/Shoreway use that station, this would be the estimated boardings there.....

 

15/25 - Great Lakes Towing Co. -- 100+ jobs

90/150 - West Side High School -- 600 students

60/100 - Edison Apartments -- 400 +/- residents

65/108 - Breakwater Bluffs II -- 430 +/- residents

68/113 - Westinghouse redevelopment -- 450 +/- residents/jobs

60/100 - HKM redevelopment -- 400 +/- residents/jobs

90/150 - Single-family homes existing/planned -- 600 residents

-----

448/746 boardings per day

 

That's probably a pretty conservative number considering that only 300 people per day use the East 79th Red Line station and there's very little around it.

 

Assuming only 15/25 percent of residents, students and employees within 1,500 feet of a proposed bus station at West 54th/Cass/Shoreway use that station, this would be the estimated boardings there.....

 

15/25 - Great Lakes Towing Co. -- 100+ jobs

90/150 - West Side High School -- 600 students

60/100 - Edison Apartments -- 400 +/- residents

65/108 - Breakwater Bluffs II -- 430 +/- residents

68/113 - Westinghouse redevelopment -- 450 +/- residents/jobs

60/100 - HKM redevelopment -- 400 +/- residents/jobs

90/150 - Single-family homes existing/planned -- 600 residents

-----

448/746 boardings per day

 

That's probably a pretty conservative number considering that only 300 people per day use the East 79th Red Line station and there's very little around it.

 

I would love for the 55 to have stops along the Shoreway. The population is there for it, but the Shoreway is a little crazy. They have weekend use stops at Edgewater. They’d also have to figure in slight schedule changes. I’m not sure if there’s many safe spots between Clifton and where they begin to stop downtown. 73rd Edgewater is one of the few safe spots. I personally would have added bike lanes and sidewalks with small pedestrian bridges or lighted crosswalks to the Shoreway. Something to that affect to make it feel like it’s part of the neighborhood. As a downtown resident I use the 55 and 26 frequently to go to Gordon Square or Lakewood. They’re good bus lines.

If ODOT says an intersection with Clifton-style bus shelters isn't possible here, then maybe pull-off lanes are (I'd also add a similar facility above the pedestrian tunnel from West 76th to the Edgewater Bathhouse)....

 

clevelandstatebrt-west50thstop by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

I still don't understand why the rush hour bus lanes don't continue onto the Shoreway?  They run from Rocky River to Clifton/Lake, then end there. 

If ODOT says an intersection with Clifton-style bus shelters isn't possible here, then maybe pull-off lanes are (I'd also add a similar facility above the pedestrian tunnel from West 76th to the Edgewater Bathhouse)....

 

clevelandstatebrt-west50thstop by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

The bus pull off has pros and cons. In heavier traffic the bus could get stuck. As long as there's pedestrian safety implemented it would work well. My concern is just that many people still treat it like a highway. It would be nice if they installed the CSU shelters there as well.

 

I agree with there being "BRT lanes" along the Shoreway. It shouldn't be a a very expensive feature to implement. It could boost ridership too if commuting was more competitive against driving. It really doesn't make sense to just start it/end it at Clifton. 

Reality is that there's no good justification for RTA expansion, especially in that area. You already have these gigantic buses typically carrying two or three people which is highly inefficient. Cleveland is simply too drivable to make sense for mass transit. There's plenty of parking, very little traffic, etc. I still don't quite grasp the fetishization of the RTA on this forum.

Reality is that there's no good justification for RTA expansion, especially in that area. You already have these gigantic buses typically carrying two or three people which is highly inefficient. Cleveland is simply too drivable to make sense for mass transit. There's plenty of parking, very little traffic, etc. I still don't quite grasp the fetishization of the RTA on this forum.

 

With this sentence alone I think I'm safe to assume you've never ridden the RTA near W. 50th.

 

I don't even care for RTA that much. But you're categorically wrong here.

Hahahahaha. Westlake. I ride that bus every morning and evening. It is standing room only every time I step on the 55. And ridership on the route has gone up 20% since they added the bus lane. That’s a fact, not an observation.

Is the argument that nobody rides the bus so there's no use putting bus stops where lots of people live?

Have you actually ever seen one of the Clifton busses any time other than maybe 10:00 pm on a Sunday. This is one of the more heavily used lines in the RTA system. Maybe they appear empty to you because by the time they get all the way out to westlake, those who value any shred of good built environment and walkability have already gotten off the bus in Cleveland, Lakewood, and Rocky river. Because honestly, who wants to go further west past those points anyway?

Reality is that there's no good justification for RTA expansion, especially in that area. You already have these gigantic buses typically carrying two or three people which is highly inefficient. Cleveland is simply too drivable to make sense for mass transit. There's plenty of parking, very little traffic, etc. I still don't quite grasp the fetishization of the RTA on this forum.

As of 2016, the average percentage of U.S residents that don't have a car was at 8.7%, Cleveland, on the other hand, is at 23.7%, 3 times as high as the national average. People depend on the various modes of transportation that RTA provides no matter how bare-boned it is, you may not but a lot of other residents would disagree.

 

http://www.governing.com/gov-data/car-ownership-numbers-of-vehicles-by-city-map.html

Lol. I can't believe you chose THAT area to pick your fight against public transport. Honestly, if I wanted an out-of-towner or national media personality to see public transport in Cleveland, I'd take them on the 55. Always crowded, younger crowd, and highly diverse.

Sure, buses are pretty empty by the time they get out to Westlake, Rocky River and Bay Village. In the city, they are not.

 

So why do we discuss public transportation here? Because it's an urban forum and no city can be great without great public transportation. Now, from a policy perspective...

 

> one-fourth (Census says it's 26 percent) of Cleveland households don't have a car, PLUS many more households have multiple wage earners sharing just one car

> anywhere from 5-35 percent of Cleveland suburban households don't have a car, PLUS many of them have wage earners sharing a car

> according to the Greater Cleveland Partnership, Fund For Our Economic Future, Vibrant NEO and others, there are thousands of unfilled jobs at suburban and exurban employers

> only one out of three jobs in Greater Cleveland is within a 90-minute one-way transit ride, according to the Cleveland Federal Reserve Bank and the Brookings Institute

> Cleveland's Housing + Transportation (H+T) cost index for low-income households is actually higher in Cleveland than in many larger, expensive cities because poor people are forced to own cars they can't afford due to inadequate transit and the high-cost/risk of redeveloping Cleveland's polluted industrial sites with new jobs/housing

> Consequently, Cleveland has the second highest poverty rate in the nation among big cities

 

Now, to address these issues, we need to bring more jobs to where the people are and expand transit to where the jobs are. So do we prefer to pay for welfare or for public transportation? I prefer the latter, which is the great uniter, acquainter and mixer of cities.

I heard that a road connection between W 70th and W 73rd by the Shoreway was eventually going to happen. Do we know anything about that?

I heard that a road connection between W 70th and W 73rd by the Shoreway was eventually going to happen. Do we know anything about that?

 

They've been talking about that for about 10 yrs.  As soon as the plan to punch 73rd through to the Shoreway required a dead end of Fr. Caruso, they started looking for ways to connect the neighborhoods rather than going all the way up to Detroit & back down...  possible Fr. Frascati extending to the east now that those old buildings were torn down about 5 years ago

I hope they extend both Father Frescati and Battery Park Blvd to W. 70th st. 73rd could really use a couple stop signs right around there to control traffic coming off of the shoreway.

Sure, buses are pretty empty by the time they get out to Westlake, Rocky River and Bay Village. In the city, they are not.

 

So why do we discuss public transportation here? Because it's an urban forum and no city can be great without great public transportation. Now, from a policy perspective...

 

> one-fourth (Census says it's 26 percent) of Cleveland households don't have a car, PLUS many more households have multiple wage earners sharing just one car

> anywhere from 5-35 percent of Cleveland suburban households don't have a car, PLUS many of them have wage earners sharing a car

> according to the Greater Cleveland Partnership, Fund For Our Economic Future, Vibrant NEO and others, there are thousands of unfilled jobs at suburban and exurban employers

> only one out of three jobs in Greater Cleveland is within a 90-minute one-way transit ride, according to the Cleveland Federal Reserve Bank and the Brookings Institute

> Cleveland's Housing + Transportation (H+T) cost index for low-income households is actually higher in Cleveland than in many larger, expensive cities because poor people are forced to own cars they can't afford due to inadequate transit and the high-cost/risk of redeveloping Cleveland's polluted industrial sites with new jobs/housing

> Consequently, Cleveland has the second highest poverty rate in the nation among big cities

 

Now, to address these issues, we need to bring more jobs to where the people are and expand transit to where the jobs are. So do we prefer to pay for welfare or for public transportation? I prefer the latter, which is the great uniter, acquainter and mixer of cities.

 

I wish I could like this more than once. Many people do not understand transit. I took the the 26 home (downtown)  from my friends apartment in battery park at 9 PM. It was full. I have friends who live near Detroit in Ohio City/Detroit Shoreway who use the 26 all the time to get downtown. However, when it goes to 30 minutes it becomes somewhat inconvenient so then they grab an Uber. If the 55 had a couple more stops it would surely increase ridership to the 55, especially from people who live north of Detroit - which has been and is becoming more desnse with townhome and apartment projects. 

 

https://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2017/08/west_shoreway_100m_re-do_bring.html

 

Would like to add, I have ridden suburban buses to the end of the line on the east side (#9, #32) many times and those are usually crowded too. The empty buses thing is just something people who don't ride buses say.

 

And that's not even mentioning all the empty roads in the area that I could point out...

Cleveland Public power in the neighborhood today. W58 & Herman

Matt Zone is having a study done on placing utilities underground.

 

No mention who would be paying for this.

Cleveland Public power in the neighborhood today. W58 & Herman

Matt Zone is having a study done on placing utilities underground.

 

No mention who would be paying for this.

 

*whispers*....ratepayers

Cleveland Public power in the neighborhood today. W58 & Herman

Matt Zone is having a study done on placing utilities underground.

 

No mention who would be paying for this.

 

*whispers*....ratepayers

 

Gimme' that underground utility installation rate, then. Would love to see long-term planning that allows for fewer butchered mature trees along the streets.

I heard that a road connection between W 70th and W 73rd by the Shoreway was eventually going to happen. Do we know anything about that?

 

Well.. they better get it done soon.  Because if they don't then the traffic is going to use the driveway of the new condos as an alternative. (It connects at 70th presently and will soon also go out to 73rd)

 

We had tons of traffic through the private driveway of Case Belvedere getting from 69th to 70th during the period that Fr. Caruso was closed due to the sewer construction.

 

Given the growth of the neighborhood and the high value of getting to the shoreway exit on 73rd I would expect the amount cutting through their private drive to be an order of magnitude higher.

Given the growth of the neighborhood and the high value of getting to the shoreway exit on 73rd I would expect the amount cutting through their private drive to be an order of magnitude higher.

 

Oh man, when that starts happening it is going to result in ?one?hot?comment? thread on the D-S Facebook page.

Hahahahaha. Westlake. I ride that bus every morning and evening. It is standing room only every time I step on the 55. And ridership on the route has gone up 20% since they added the bus lane. That’s a fact, not an observation.

 

I stand corrected regarding ridership then. I walk around my place of work downtown near Public Square and my impression on bus ridership is based on what I see there which are buses carrying maybe 10-15 people at a time. Perhaps Gordon Square is different (although I have to laugh at the people assuming I live in Westlake. I live on W. 74th so I'm intimately familiar with the are).

 

Regardless, I'm still far from convinced that the RTA system is the most cost-effective use of taxpayer dollars and I'm sure many will disagree with that. I'd be happy to debate it in PMs since this is a development thread.

^More cost effective would be shelling out the dough for a more expansive rapid, with routes to Westlake, Strongsville, Independence, Shaker, and Euclid.

 

The cost would be great up front, but would save us in the long run.

^^ Automobile infrastructure is the least efficient and least sustainable use of tax dollars. 

Debate it in the RTA thread

https://www.urbanohio.com/forum/index.php/topic,4504.0.html

Given the growth of the neighborhood and the high value of getting to the shoreway exit on 73rd I would expect the amount cutting through their private drive to be an order of magnitude higher.

 

Oh man, when that starts happening it is going to result in ?one?hot?comment? thread on the D-S Facebook page.

 

Yeah.  I imagine it will prompt many complaints.  People don't plop down >$500k on a townhouse to see their driveway used as a thoroughfare.

 

 

But it will be irresistible... cutting from Fr. Caruso at 70th directly to the Shoreway ramp on 73rd and back will be much more time efficient than going all the up to Detroit, over and down.

And on the West Side of #Cleveland, TOD is rising at GCRTA's West 65th Red Line rail station. #AspenPlace

http://www.city.cleveland.oh.us/node/11657

 

 

 

 

More images at:

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2018/10052018/index.php

 

NEAR WEST DESIGN REVIEW

 

NW2018-028 - Detroit Shoreway Apartments Phase 2 New Construction: Seeking Schematic Design Approval

Project Location:  Breakwater Avenue b/w West 65th and West 58th Streets

Project Representative: Cheryl Steigerwald, NRP Group

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There it is!  ;)