Since when should we expect new construction to match average salaries?  What's wrong with buying existing housing stock?  I wouldn't expect prices to come down too much any time soon, unless the run up in building material costs comes down considerably.

The goal I would assume is to not have a lot of inventory in new housing construction? The price point that sold the best (except for foreclosure homes) is $250k over the past few years. That tells me that is the price point people are looking for. There is nothing wrong with buying existing housing stock that is mostly what I sell! And if you were to ask me what my personal preference is, it's a house with old world character built before 1960. (1870 is perfect lol)  I'm talking about what people are looking for.

 

As to salaries.  Here is the issue. You have tons of homes and town homes that were built with tax abatement that people could afford due to the abatement although money was still tight, they could do it. Now some of these communities are finding their abatements are up and a lot of homes went up for resale just due to that fact. So it's a bit like buying a home with an ARM that comes due and all of a sudden you realize you can't comfortably afford the home you are living in. I'm not saying there should be no new construction over $300k I'm just saying that we still have an absorption rate of 18 months on new housing construction because the price points are high and the pool of people who can afford them is smaller.

 

When you look at Battery Park, they did a great job being flexible. They realized the homes that were selling were in a lower price point and they reconfigured the models that would be going into their additional phases to lower price points in many cases. I think that makes great sense.

Since when should we expect new construction to match average salaries?  What's wrong with buying existing housing stock?  I wouldn't expect prices to come down too much any time soon, unless the run up in building material costs comes down considerably.

 

Yep. I'd say, in general, there are more than enough affordable options for people looking to own property in Ohio City and Detroit Shoreway available. New construction and totally renovated re-habs are simply more expensive to do. We also need to attract more wealth into these neighborhoods, imo. I love what's going on in DS and OC. If folks are asking too much for their new condos, the market will eventually shake it out.

All I am saying is demand is for a different price point. Just in case you're interested, here are some stats for D/S, OC and Tremont: since Jan. 1st, 16 homes have had activity at a price point from $279k and up. 8 sold (all over $300k), one is 'contingent' meaning there is a contract but waiting for inspections or mortgage terms to clear, and 7 are 'pending' close.

 

There are 124 homes on the market in this price point. That comes to 15 months worth of inventory (three months less than the average for all of Cuyahoga County). The one home that sold in 8 days sold for $280,000. The others were on the market much longer.

 

Someone who can afford a $250k home is not necessarily low income agreed? lol

and on a really postive note, 561 homes that were listed under $279k  have sold in these areas since January 1st.

Nice!

All I am saying is demand is for a different price point. Just in case you're interested, here are some stats for D/S, OC and Tremont: since Jan. 1st, 16 homes have had activity at a price point from $279k and up. 8 sold (all over $300k), one is 'contingent' meaning there is a contract but waiting for inspections or mortgage terms to clear, and 7 are 'pending' close.

 

There are 124 homes on the market in this price point. That comes to 15 months worth of inventory (three months less than the average for all of Cuyahoga County). The one home that sold in 8 days sold for $280,000. The others were on the market much longer.

 

Someone who can afford a $250k home is not necessarily low income agreed? lol

 

As a Realtor focusing in these areas (I assume) have you been seeing price drops as developers start feeling the pinch of interest rates biting at their heels? My comment on adding affordable housing is that housing is affordable in almost every neighborhood of DS and OC. Right now buyers can be extremely picky on what they buy because there is a large glut of housing stock available compared to those shopping.

 

Eventually the prices you are looking at in the various DS developments will either fall, or we will start to see people who finally moved their current home shopping the market and filling those $280k homes.

yes, in Battery Park, they adjusted what their new phase would be. developers are changing somewhat, but once you build it, it's hard to drop it too drastically or you lose the return on your project. My suggestion is be creative, build some homes people want now, don't build a 390k home complex and then wait two years for them to start selling because you finally lowered the price.  I guess we can agree to disagree

if I may add, as a potential first time home buyer, I am often put off by the price of what I want.  I am not asking for much, really.  my wife and I live in less than 650 sq ft now, so we can adapt.  but so much is just out of my reach.  just more than I am willing to pay, with student loans and assorted bills coming out of my bank account.  so instead, it is easier to rent for an exceptionally cheap amount.  and here is where I make a big leap which you are welcome to pick apart.  this lack of quality homes at a reasonable price is making me much more apt to move to a different city when the time comes.  I am not tied to a mortgage, and I am not truly a part of the neighborhood.  no matter how much I like it here, I am still transient.  I don't feel like my brain is draining, but I am sure the pd will try to tell me it is.

 

I always start a post on topic, but end up editing the bits out that related to the previous posts and thread.  somewhere in there I wrote how I like bp, but would rather live across the street from it.  how I like older homes rather than new construction, how I would choose a small house over a big house in most cases. 

math,

 

I disagree that you'll find cheaper and better housing in other cities.

yes, in Battery Park, they adjusted what their new phase would be. developers are changing somewhat, but once you build it, it's hard to drop it too drastically or you lose the return on your project. My suggestion is be creative, build some homes people want now, don't build a 390k home complex and then wait two years for them to start selling because you finally lowered the price.  I guess we can agree to disagree

 

I think I get where you've been going with this Carol and I agree.  It's not just the price point itself, it's the mix in price points in some of the new construction. For the most part, it's been skewed to the higher end and you're suggesting that a smart developer would be flexible and change his planned mix to address the lower-end price points.  The developer would presumably have higher sales velocity instead of sitting on a project for a long time trying to sell the high-end units.  I agree and it's something that I've thought about myself over the past few years. 

 

The market seems to be ripe for a developer who is willing to take slighly less return per development/unit in return for completing a project sooner and moving on to the next one (and presumably making up for the lower return at least in part by churning more units).  I'm no expert in the cost structure and relative returns in new residential construction, but it seems like this would be a possibility.  Maybe I'm wrong?

 

I hope Battery Park continues to be a great example of a development with good flexibility in price points.  Those two sets of townhomes that were in the $185k-$210k price range sold like hotcakes, and I think they'd be smart to incorporate more similarly priced units into the development.  Sounds like they're moving down that path, which is great.

yes, in Battery Park, they adjusted what their new phase would be. developers are changing somewhat, but once you build it, it's hard to drop it too drastically or you lose the return on your project. My suggestion is be creative, build some homes people want now, don't build a 390k home complex and then wait two years for them to start selling because you finally lowered the price.  I guess we can agree to disagree

 

Well, I think there are many people banking on the idea that aging boomers will want to shed themselves of their high maintenance houses in the burbs for easy to maintain condos, these are who those 250k on up condos are aimed at, imo.. the problem is that these people can't sell their homes for what they have valued at.

 

The first time home buyer with great credit and some saved up cash has a real advantage in Cleveland right now, so long as they are willing to bite off what they can chew.

 

Math, I'm not sure what you are looking to pay, but all I see are for sale signs and for auction signs around OC. I would say it never hurts to make an offer. People can ask the market for what they want, but there is no law saying you can't offer what you want and go from there.

Per NAR stats, the medium price of existing single family homes in 4thQ 2007 was about $206k for the country as a whole.  I know that's a lot of money, but the point is that every listing below that amount (which includes some Battery Park listings as well as many, many quality existing homes in the Cleveland area ) is less than most people around the country pay.  There is at least one decent looking Ohio City single family listing on the PURE website for under $100K.  As 3231 points out, I don't think anyone is going see cheaper housing in many metro areas.  Maybe Canton, Buffalo, Peoria or Charleston, WV, but not metro areas of comparative size and offerings, and certainly not metro areas with strong economies.  Even Cedar Rapids, IA had a higher median home cost than the Cleveland area.

 

See http://www.realtor.org/Research.nsf/Pages/MetroPrice

 

and

 

http://www.realtor.org/press_room/news_releases/2008/4q_08_metro_home_prices.html

math,

 

I disagree that you'll find cheaper and better housing in other cities.

Cleveland is one of the cheapest real estate markets in the country. Youngstown is even cheaper but try finding a job there to pay the mortgage and you’ll realize why it is so cheap.

Detroit-Shoreway (the neighborhood and the CDC) is a model for this range of price points on new construction single-family homes.  You've got Battery Park that has its own range of price points, pricier developments that overlook the lake (Lake Pointe) and have had strong resale #s over the years, and then small developments like the ones along Bridge Avenue and points south, including the Eco-Village (not so small) and the in-progress Green Cottages.  That's without addressing the rental and existing housing stock.  I think D-S is one of the better composed districts as far as housing stock goes.  Lots of strength and building, but still plenty of opportunity for those with lesser means.

I disagree that you'll find cheaper and better housing in other cities.

I don't think I said that, but I might have implied it accidentally somehow.  I was trying to speak more to my frustration with the escalation of prices around me, as my own income remains relatively static.  consider it like this, I move into the neighborhood because it is cheap and quiet.  five years later a big project makes the neighborhood desirable, and now I can't afford to do anything but rent for a couple more years and save.  hence, I stay transient for another couple years, even though I have a great job and I am very happy living in the city.  ergot, if a better job opens up elsewhere, I may move for it, since I don't own anything.  despite the fact that I really like it here and want to stay. 

Math your situation is not unique, yet understandable.  It happens everywhere.

The only way to keep it cheap is to keep it undesirable.

I don't think I said that, but I might have implied it accidentally somehow.  I was trying to speak more to my frustration with the escalation of prices around me, as my own income remains relatively static.  consider it like this, I move into the neighborhood because it is cheap and quiet.  five years later a big project makes the neighborhood desirable, and now I can't afford to do anything but rent for a couple more years and save.  hence, I stay transient for another couple years, even though I have a great job and I am very happy living in the city.  ergot, if a better job opens up elsewhere, I may move for it, since I don't own anything.  despite the fact that I really like it here and want to stay. 

 

Five years? Ppffffttt! Welcome to the wonderful world of gentrification - if you think it's bad here, you're going to be in for a surprise. I have friends in other cities where they rented a cheap but decent place and within TWO years their neighborhood got "hot" and they're already contemplating relocating due to rising prices.

Five years? Ppffffttt! Welcome to the wonderful world of gentrification - if you think it's bad here, you're going to be in for a surprise. I have friends in other cities where they rented a cheap but decent place and within TWO years their neighborhood got "hot" and they're already contemplating relocating due to rising prices.

 

I couldn't agree more.  Hell look at the south in general.  People had dirt cheap rent in the 90s early 2000s.  Look at DC and Philadelphia.  Prices in those cities are insane.

Tell me about it!  I look at amazing places and pretty much mansions in Cleveland for the same as Im paying for my crappy place in DC...  Now if only I could find a job there.

One of the reasons I wish Cleveland's mass transit were better. Lots of savings.

I think I promised some recent pictures... these are from about two weeks ago already, but hey, they're better than nothing!

 

The former Lou's Furniture building... recently rehabbed by DSCDO.  The upper floors are affordable lofts and the ground floor is ripe for a retail tenant!

 

Real Deal leathers... in the footprint of the Near West Theater project...  it's needed for a plaza entry

 

Gordon Square Arcade, home to offices, retail & service tenants, plus two floors of affordable apartments:

 

Detroit Avenue from W. 67th to W. 64th is filling up with tenants and the streetscape project (which goes beyond this zone) is about to begin!

 

New retail along the south side of Detroit, including the soon-to-open Luxe!

 

More of this stretch, including Room Service, DuoHome, Kitsch City, and the Detroit Studio:

 

The Kennedy Building, home to the scrumptious Gypsy Beans & Baking Co.

 

Stone Mad, pre-opening:

 

 

One of the reasons I wish Cleveland's mass transit were better. Lots of savings.

 

Please define "better" or do you mean "replace buses with rail"?

Nope. Just wish it was more practical. Maybe I'm just speaking out of ignorance, but I know the transit in Cleveland isn't the most convenient mode of transportation. It wouldn't be the most practical thing to get rid of one's car and rely solely on mass transit.

^In certain neighborhoods - Detroit-Shoreway being a prime example - it's a perfectly practical option.

Nope. Just wish it was more practical. Maybe I'm just speaking out of ignorance, but I know the transit in Cleveland isn't the most convenient mode of transportation. It wouldn't be the most practical thing to get rid of one's car and rely solely on mass transit.

 

Again you're saying "transit" as a whole.  What specifically are you speaking of?

 

As a person who visited many cities, I think our bus systems covers a lot of ground and is very good at transporting people around the region.

 

You honestly mean to tell me that our BUS system is less convenient than the NYC transit system?  Based on option, reliability & on time performance?

^The NY Bus system is killed by the City's car-coddling surface transportation policy, but NYC does point to one area which I wish could be improved in Cleveland- bus frequency.  I don't blame RTA for this, because I know it's a budget issue.  One of the best parts of the Euclid BRT will be the frequency.  You won't need to worry about a schedule or just missing one, because another one will be right there.  My limited bus riding in Cleveland (and perusing the schedules of some of the routes) give me the impression that you generally need to time things pretty well to make it practical and to avoid lots of long waits at bus stops.

 

Back to DS: anyone else think the storefront signage is a little meak?  It looks like the signage Nazis are preventing anyone from touching all that blindingly clean brick!

Oh, and I forgot to say- wow, thing's are looking great!  Thanks for the photos!  Can't wait to put my drinking shoes on and check out Stone Mad this summer.

Although I only take the 48/48a (to univ. circle) or the 10 to my grandparents house when I don't feel like driving.  I think the times/frequencies are good.

 

NYC duplicating services are horrible.  I can walk down 125 to St. Nick faster than the bus can move between Madison and 125 street.

 

I like the understated store fronts, the Ugly 800 lb gorilla in the area are the OVERHEAD UTILITY wires!  That is the one thing I hate in Cleveland!

I don't think that it is code enforcement that is prohibiting signage. As you can see some of the businesses have adequate signage.

Great photos, Map Boy!

 

I absolutely hate the awnings on the Gordon Square building!  Are new awnings in the works at all?

 

the Ugly 800 lb gorilla in the area are the OVERHEAD UTILITY wires!  That is the one thing I hate in Cleveland!

 

I think burying these is part of the streetscape project, which I agree will improve things.

 

I don't think that it is code enforcement that is prohibiting signage. As you can see some of the businesses have adequate signage.

 

I don't think it's code enforcement, I think it's landlord-driven.  I think after spending all that money cleaning and restoring the facades, they are terrified of cluttering or even covering them at all.  Not a big deal, I just think this looks a little naked:

 

 

 

I don't think it's code enforcement, I think it's landlord-driven.  I think after spending all that money cleaning and restoring the facades, they are terrified of cluttering or even covering them at all.  Not a big deal, I just think this looks a little naked:

 

You're being picky.  Being a picky bitch is my job!  :-D  Off my territory!

 

I think it looks fine, maybe there building upgrade plans in the works?

 

 

First, I think they look fine as they are, but I can understand your desire to see more color.  Second, there may be restrictions on what you can/can't attach to the facade of a historic building, especially if you use the City's Storefront Renovation Program to help pay for the rehab.  Historical accuracy is often paramount in these decisions.  Third, the uplighting does great things with the building at night, as does the stores' interior lighting.  Letting the shops and the structure do the talking is a nice touch.  And yes, the alternative may be some bland, monotonous awnings like you see across the street!

 

"Second, there may be restrictions on what you can/can't attach to the facade of a historic building, especially if you use the City's Storefront Renovation Program to help pay for the rehab."

 

Bingo!

^All good points.  I just wish there were a little more room to maneuver with historical renovation projects instead of encasing the building in bronze [figuratively] so it can't change at all ever.  No biggie for me though- I still think these buildings are looking great! From a practical point of view, signage on unshaded windows can also be lost in the glare and tough to pick out during the day.

I'm actually amazed at the overall progress of the neighborhood. For those of us that remember this stretch of Detroit in the 80’s, just wow! (Don't even think about it MTS)

I'm actually amazed at the overall progress of the neighborhood. For those of us that remember this stretch of Detroit in the 80’s, just wow! (Don't even think about it MTS)

 

Don't you mean to aim that at the whippersnappers?!

 

I don't remember Detroit that well, I rarely "crossed over" back then!   :evil: :evil: :evil:

I like the understated store fronts, the Ugly 800 lb gorilla in the area are the OVERHEAD UTILITY wires!  That is the one thing I hate in Cleveland!

 

I believe the wires are going below the street as part of the impending streetscape project along Detroit Avenue from West 58th-West 72 streets.

 

A similar streetscape projects along Lorain Avenue in the Kamm's Corners area is also putting the utility wires below street level.

^KJP, any word on when the streetscape program will break ground?  I think that I heard that the theater project will break ground before the streetscape will.

Streetscape should start any day now. Last I remember is that the work was due to start when the weather broke in the spring.

I was able to have a couple drinks at Stone Mad last Friday night. I agree with an earlier post that it's the best Guiness pour I've had in my short beer drinking life. The attention to detail in that place is amazing and the courtesy of the staff is refreshing. I stopped into Reddstone the same evening and found a total of 5 people there. Looks like they'll need the next BP phases to move along quickly if they want to keep up now that there's another place in the area with an equally (or in my opinion) more impressive outdoor seating area.

 

 

I don't remember Detroit that well, I rarely "crossed over" back then!   :evil: :evil: :evil:

 

typical eastsider!

I don't remember Detroit that well, I rarely "crossed over" back then!   :evil: :evil: :evil:

 

typical eastsider!

Bitter westsider!  humph!

 

OK BACK ON TOPIC BEFORE WE GET A VIRTUAL SMACK FROM BIG PAPA MAYDAY!

I was able to have a couple drinks at Stone Mad last Friday night. I agree with an earlier post that it's the best Guiness pour I've had in my short beer drinking life. The attention to detail in that place is amazing and the courtesy of the staff is refreshing. I stopped into Reddstone the same evening and found a total of 5 people there. Looks like they'll need the next BP phases to move along quickly if they want to keep up now that there's another place in the area with an equally (or in my opinion) more impressive outdoor seating area.

 

 

 

What time were you in Reddstone?  It typically doesn't start to fill up in there till after 11PM or so.  Tuesday is an exception because of the dime wing night.  Their wings are quite tasty and suprisingly meaty for a discount night.

I was at the Parkview until about 11:20PM and then made the short drive to Reddstone so I'd say I get in there around 11:30PM. We walked right out and hit Stone Mad at that point.

I've heard that a groundbreaking ceremony will be taking place May 14th. But that might just be the Capitol ... not sure.

Wasn't there mention at the town hall-type meeting at Gordon Square that the Near West Theatre project wasn't slated to begin until 2010? I thought I read that somewhere. Either way, what I do know is that no offer to purchase the building that houses Real Deal Leathers has been made.

Okay I am baaack. Still mulling over the part of this thread that spoke to housing price points. My theory is that some developers are getting it -- take Starkweather Place and Battery Park as examples. We talked about Battery Park but not Starkweather Place. Thinking about this got me to search for new construction (I picked since 2002 which means all still have tax abatement). Here is what you can get for a reasonable price.

 

Starting with: ONE DOLLAR. Yes you read that correctly. Tuck's Track has eight town homes between Madison and Detroit on W. 85th. They will all be auctioned off and the listed auction price (which could be a starting price but still....) is $1 green dollar. Check it out. Also:

 

Chicle THs, starting at $129,900 (great for FTHBs (first time home buyers)

Stonebridge starting at $149k

 

And I didn't even mention Fries & Schuele one of the two hottest sellers which start in the $129k range.

8404 Franklin...still THs left and starting at around $170k

 

A single family house built in 2002 with abatement on W 47th street for $174,000

The new Tremont Valley town homes on W. 11th with about 1200 sq ft of living space and starting at around $180k

 

Battery Park; starting at $189k (and as I mentioned, their new phase will include more of the lower price points that are selling as opposed to the higher price points which are not. I applaud them)

 

Town homes of St. Stephens on W. 54th starting at around $190k and beautifully done.

The new Detroit Superior Lofts project with a starting price point of $194k (they get it too).

 

A pretty, single family home on Monroe south of Lorain with over 2600 sq feet of living space and a listing price of $196,500.

 

And last but not least, Starkweather Place with a great Tremont style facade and good location. Starting in the low 200s.