Posted January 31, 200916 yr I like to browse real estate listings on a regular basis. I'm always interested to see what's for sale, and how much they're asking. (sort of my preferrd, but flawed, way of following the housing market around here) Every once in awhile, I spot something that catches my attention. Usually, (especially in Youngstown) it's some architectural gem in the rough. But most of the listings are simple 1910's or 1920's single family homes that could be nice, but aren't anything special. Recently, however, I found one that is extra nice on Youngstown's north side. Unfortunately, because of its current condition, it will likely be demolished if someone doesn't do something with this particular house soon. And, with the real estate market and economy the way they are, I don't think there are many others who could save it right now. I've attached a picture of the house that was taken by the member JW. Here is a link to his/her thread: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,16790.0.html So, I'm giving serious thought to buying the house and restoring it. But, for various reasons, (work, transportation, etc.) I'd go about it slowly. (I'd have to put on a new roof right away, though) Eventually, I would like to live there. I would not be the first person to restore a house on this particular street. In the linked thread, there is a red house with dark gray/black trim on the same block that looks like it has been recently restored. But, many of the houses on this block are still rentals; some chopped up and in various stages of neglect. Having written all that, I'm not exactly sure why I started this thread. I guess I'm wondering if anyone has any advice. Or, could someone tell me what motivates the first couple people to enter a neighborhood that has been written off by most, and start to fix their place up? Maybe I'm looking for people who share similar interests (but without the emotional blinders) to tell me that I should go for it, or that I'm foolish to even think about doing this?
January 31, 200916 yr I say go for it. When I move to Harlem, onky two houses on the block were done, we had thre vacant lots and lots of "split" brownstones. As a person who like pre war homes and some mid century homes. I say go with what you like. I would suggest getting and INDEPENDENT appraisal, and have two housing inspectors look at the house from TOP TO BOTTOM before doing anything. Then ask YOUR broker what you should do and how to do it to maximize your ROI. Ask anyone and everyone you know who has done a home reno, who their contractor was and then get references on each and every single job. Ask as many questions and you need to feel comfortable in choosing a contractor as you're going to be married and trusting this person with your biggest investment. Based on the information above, set up a project list (with the contractor) and REALISTIC time lines for completing the various renovations, then add one month to each project as there undoubtedly will be a delay! LOL. At every step of the job, make sure to meet each person who works "specializes" on a particular job in your home. Spending some dough up front will save you from spending a lot of dough once you've started. Now, once you've got a contractor, a budget, a time line, be sure to stick to it. Do not make changes while in working on a project unless necessary as that will add cost and time to the project. Make sure to keep accurate records and keep every receipt. There are lots of ways to cut cost without cutting quality. Lastly, be prepared to live in a home that has ongoing construction. Not fun, but the end result is a worthwhile.
January 31, 200916 yr Thanks for your reply! I'll probably be my own general contractor, and I would take on projects slowly. There are a couple of reasons for this: -I want to take it easy on my finances, do some of the smaller projects myself, and stay out of debt for as long as possible. -When the time comes, (when the other house is at least habitable) it will probably take some time to sell my current house, and I want to stay here until it sells to avoid vandalism/copper theives. -Unlike flipping a house, I don't need to get the job done as fast as possible in order to maximize my profit and minimize holding costs. The idea of flipping a house seems pretty funny, even outside of Youngstown these days...
January 31, 200916 yr Flipping is too hard. You get emotionally attached to the finished product. I can't wait to see before and after pics. I love these types of threads!
January 31, 200916 yr LOL, I hope I can provide them. I haven't actually been in the house yet, so this is still pretty theoretical.
January 31, 200916 yr This isn't a great place for lack of emotional blinders! We all (or most) love to see buildings like this brought back to their former glory. With that said, GO FOR IT!
January 31, 200916 yr I like it! I say if you can swing it financially, personally, etc.; go for it! Looks like it would be a great place to live. Good advice MTS, he can probably contract out the dumpster diving to you, you could probably come up with some gems that would fit this house perfectly!
January 31, 200916 yr I like it! I say if you can swing it financially, personally, etc.; go for it! Looks like it would be a great place to live. Good advice MTS, he can probably contract out the dumpster diving to you, you could probably come up with some gems that would fit this house perfectly! LOL. I might be having a sale, my father has threatened to throw all the stuff i've brought to his house that he didn't know about.
February 7, 200916 yr Well, I toured the house today and I'm discouraged and overwhelmed. I'm not sure I could handle this much of a project. I didn't even look in the basement, and we couldn't access the attic because it was a third apartment that wasn't reconnected with the rest of the house yet. I think I would have to gut the second floor, and probably much of the first floor except for the entry foyer and living room. I was disappointed that there are so few features on the interior. (Considering how much detail there is on the outside of the house...) And, the few features there were have been stolen, or damaged. Here are some pictures: Exterior: Entry parlor/foyer: This was definitely a high-quality house. This is a picture of the plaster crown-moldings. (that have been damaged over the years) Living room: Kitchen: Dining room/bedroom: (used to connect to the kitchen) Used to have an open stairway to the second floor. The balusters and railings were lost when the house was split into apartments. Upstairs hall: Front bedroom: (over the living room) The other front bedroom: It seems like the oval window that can be seen from the street was only decorative. In this picture, you can see that it was in a closet, and looks like it was plastered over originally. Bedroom/kitchen: 4th bedroom: It looks like there is another bad spot in the roof. For as nasty as this looks, the house seems to be solid. It looks like a solid brick house--the foundation even appears to be stone. I also didn't notice any uneven, sagging, or bouncy floors. But, I think it needs all new systems; this is mostly a shell with a bad roof. :( Thoughts? For those with more experience, does this look like a heavy project?
February 7, 200916 yr oh my goodness, based on those pictures, that house has a TON of potential. What is the square footage? I think you realize that houses made in the 30s, unless they are a mansions, don't fit in with today's standards, so you're going to lose a room and reconfigure the floor plans. I can already see you sipping lemonade with the neighbors on that front porch in the summer. I see those steps to the third floor removed and a new four season patio. There are pocket doors, crown molding & fireplaces. What are the floors, windows, chimney like?
February 7, 200916 yr It looks like a lot of work, but like you said, it looks solid. I've seen worse! I say go for it, its a great looking house.
February 7, 200916 yr It looks like a lot of work, but like you said, it looks solid. I've seen worse! I say go for it, its a great looking house. I think it looks cosmetic. Replacing the stairs is going to be a pain and most likely adding a bathroom/powder room. I agree with Dan. I've seen worse. Like that!
February 7, 200916 yr I would only do it if I was otherwise unemployed and had plenty of cash on hand.
February 7, 200916 yr I would only do it if I was otherwise unemployed and had plenty of cash on hand. Stop it Debbie Downer!!! :-P
February 7, 200916 yr I'd be a bit concerned about those windows. You will need to replace them, unless you plan to spend a fortune on heating that place. I live a building with original windows, and heat escapes like crazy. How many of them still have the string attached to the pulleys? I see a few still operable in your photos. I actually don't know how they repair these. I just broke one in my apartment and my landlord said it's too difficult to replace, so he gave me a wooden block to prop open the window. LOL MTS, the plaster is already off the wall in those photos. That looks like an easy repair. Knock out that toilet and put your automatic one in there.
February 7, 200916 yr I'd be a bit concerned about those windows. You will need to replace them, unless you plan to spend a fortune on heating that place. I live a building with original windows, and heat escapes like crazy. How many of them still have the string attached to the pulleys? I see a few still operable in your photos. I actually don't know how they repair these. I just broke one in my apartment and my landlord said it's too difficult to replace, so he gave me a wooden block to prop open the window. LOL MTS, the plaster is already off the wall in those photos. That looks like an easy repair. Knock out that toilet and put your automatic one in there. Yeah thats why I adked what the windows were like. Hayward, that was the before of my bathroom. I don't have the electric toilet, but I do love a good bathroom. To me the bathroom is the best room in the house.
February 7, 200916 yr I would only do it if I was otherwise unemployed and had plenty of cash on hand. I second that opinion. I've been down that road; no one who hasn't been there with an old house can't possibly foresee all the unexpected problems and the occasional feeling of being in an endless tunnel with no visible light at the end. I gutted mine to where I could stand in the basement and see second-storey windows. I saved the foundation, frame, exterior wall sheathing, most windows, and rafters, and ripped out all the non-bearing walls and started over. I had started with the intent of doing everything myself, and then woke up and hired a carpenter. About halfway through, I lost my job and had to let the carpenter go. My dad advanced me enough cash to keep going and keep some of my sanity, and I was able to hire a plumber and an electrician to rough in those parts and a heating contractor to put in a whole new heating & AC system. It took about two years, and by the time I was finished, I was ready to gag at the smell of broken, rotten plaster. Fortunately I didn't have to live in it while major construction was under way. Now I have the style of the 1920s -1930s in a mechanically up-to-date house. In retrospect it was worth the trouble, but sometimes while it was in progress I had serious misgivings. I learned a lot, and sometimes it was almost fun. Get sound professional estimates of the cost involved, double them, and then set aside a contingency fund of equal amount. Likewise on the time you expect it to take. For professional services like plumbers, electricians, and heating/AC, get good references and make sure they're experienced at working on old houses. A lot of licensed contractors only know how to work on new construction on a slab, and anything more than thirty years old completely stymies them.
February 7, 200916 yr How many of them still have the string attached to the pulleys? I see a few still operable in your photos. I actually don't know how they repair these. I just broke one in my apartment and my landlord said it's too difficult to replace, so he gave me a wooden block to prop open the window. Sash cords usually aren't all that difficult. You need to remove the sash from the frame; do that by removing one of the window stops (trim strips) that form the channel the sash slides in. The stop may be secured with screws and grommets. More likely it's fastened with small finishing nails and probably stuck down with layers of paint. If there are no visible screws, you just pry out the strip. There should be a piece in the channel that the sash slides in, that comes out. It may be secured with a screw at the top, or it may just be tacked in. On an older house, it probably will be painted over and might be difficult to find or remove. (If you can't find the removable strip, you may have to pry off the vertical trim on the face of the window casing to get at the weight cavity. Not that big a task, but almost always requires some paint touch-up afterward.) That gives access to the cavity where the sash weight travels. You can pull out the sash weight. Thread a new cord through the pulley and secure one end in the opening in the weight with a knot and the other end, also with a knot, in the cavity in the end of the sash. There should be weights and pulleys on both sides; while you have the sash out, you may want to replace both cords. You'll likely need to touch up some paint after you put everything back together.
February 7, 200916 yr Thanks for the replies. Here's a brief list, off the top of my head this morning, of things this house will need in rough order of importance. 1. New roof (possibly lots of new sheathing–structural damage?) 2. New plumbing 3. New wiring (new breaker box appears to be connected to original circuits) 4. New furnace/HVAC 5. Chimney masonry repair? 6. 2 new bathrooms. 7. New kitchen 8. 27 total windows, (only 3 need completely replaced) 9. Doors - 2 new front doors (one is interior) - 1 new back door 10. Prune/Remove trees 11. Possibly reconfigure second floor. - new interior doors and hardware I'm not good at estimating yet, but I'm guessing that the roof alone will be a $10k job. If you're wondering what I mean by chimney masonry repair, look at the second picture down. Right where that "P" is, there is definite movement in the masonry. I also think that the top of the chimney on the other side of the house might have already fallen. (I can't tell for sure because of all the tree branches.) I can post a detail of that "P" if anyone is interested.
February 7, 200916 yr I would only do it if I was otherwise unemployed and had plenty of cash on hand. I gutted mine to where I could stand in the basement and see second-storey windows. I saved the foundation, frame, exterior wall sheathing, most windows, and rafters, and ripped out all the non-bearing walls and started over. I had started with the intent of doing everything myself, and then woke up and hired a carpenter. About halfway through, I lost my job and had to let the carpenter go. My dad advanced me enough cash to keep going and keep some of my sanity, and I was able to hire a plumber and an electrician to rough in those parts and a heating contractor to put in a whole new heating & AC system. It took about two years, and by the time I was finished, I was ready to gag at the smell of broken, rotten plaster. Fortunately I didn't have to live in it while major construction was under way. Now I have the style of the 1920s -1930s in a mechanically up-to-date house. In retrospect it was worth the trouble, but sometimes while it was in progress I had serious misgivings. I learned a lot, and sometimes it was almost fun. Get sound professional estimates of the cost involved, double them, and then set aside a contingency fund of equal amount. Likewise on the time you expect it to take. For professional services like plumbers, electricians, and heating/AC, get good references and make sure they're experienced at working on old houses. A lot of licensed contractors only know how to work on new construction on a slab, and anything more than thirty years old completely stymies them. You never forget the smell of rotten wood, mold or mildew. I remember standing under where the steps were and looking up to roof, and thinking, what the hell have I gotten myself into. Did I bite off more than I can chew? Should I have hired and architectural engineer? Luckily I was able to get a restoration loan and combine it with my mortgage or I would not have been able to do what I did. JRC, make sure to look into speciality loans/grants from the city, bank or neighborhood association. Rob, looks like we had to do the same thing. The foundation had partially failed and the back of the house was leaning on the house next door, which was leaning on the house next to it. I ended up having to take the entire back of the house off. The front looks original the back like a new house. Luckily the sub slab thingie (I forgot what this is called) was ok. Unlike you I had to live here for a small amount of time while the second and third floors were being completed. Thank God the plumbing was all in. I took them almost a year to do this house. I was like, will this shit ever be over and I'm a neat freak so the dust damn near drove me to drink grain alcohol. Make sure ALL and I do mean ALL your work permits are properly filled out and displayed. Make sure to keep copies, one on site and one in a safe place. Also, when you come up with a plan. Stick to it! Changing thing in the middle of the game can often cause delays. Changes = Delays = $$$$$
February 7, 200916 yr About the windows: some would definitely need new sash cords. I saw some hanging rope. But, more importantly, all the windows would need restored. I tapped one, and the glass rattled in the frame. In addition to being chopped up, I think this house has had little to no maintenance for the last couple decades. It was owned by landlords who saw it as a cash cow, and nothing more. :(
February 7, 200916 yr Another concern I have is that I might not be able to get financing. I went to the bank yesterday to cash my paycheck. On my way out, one of the managers stopped me to ask about the house. (I had previously inquired about pre-approval--I was curious about what my borrowing power is in this tight credit climate) She said that their loan officer wanted more details about what the house needed because she was concerned that the house would need more money invested than it could be worth, and that's a risk for them. (I'm not sure if I'm explaining that right)
February 7, 200916 yr Thanks for the replies. Here's a brief list, off the top of my head this morning, of things this house will need in rough order of importance. 1. New roof (possibly lots of new sheathing–structural damage?) 2. New plumbing 3. New wiring (new breaker box appears to be connected to original circuits) 4. New furnace/HVAC 5. Chimney masonry repair? 6. 2 new bathrooms. 7. New kitchen 8. 27 total windows, (only 3 need completely replaced) 9. Doors - 2 new front doors (one is interior) - 1 new back door 10. Prune/Remove trees 11. Possibly reconfigure second floor. - new interior doors and hardware I'm not good at estimating yet, but I'm guessing that the roof alone will be a $10k job. If you're wondering what I mean by chimney masonry repair, look at the second picture down. Right where that "P" is, there is definite movement in the masonry. I also think that the top of the chimney on the other side of the house might have already fallen. (I can't tell for sure because of all the tree branches.) I can post a detail of that "P" if anyone is interested. [*]A roof was probably needed any way. Put in a new one and it will last 20 years. $10-12K [*]New plumbing will definitely be needed to handle today's appliances. $4-6K [*]Like plumbing above will need to be brought up to code. $3K [*]Furnace/HVAC 10K [*]Windows you can negotiate. And new windows are a necessity and you'll see the saving in your heatin bill [*]New Kitchen 30K [*]You'll probably want to have a total of no less than 3 baths. One master, one for the other bedrooms and one in the basement. In addition, a first floor powder room is a great investment. A master bath could be 25k (double sinks, shower and tub); second/third baths 15k each and a powder room for 3k [*]landscaping can be negotiated, especially if it interferes with a utility. If that is the case, have them send out there crew to shape up the tree. I say spend no more than 2k outside until the inside is done. most of the outside can be a DIY project. [*]reconfiguring the first/second floor will need to have the original blue print and a know where all the load bearing walls are. That I can't compute. Rob, what do you think? Without having an inspection and just looking at the pics and what JRC has told us, do you think my estimates are reasonable? Remember doing this will not only make the house more enjoyable for you and any future little JRC's but increase resell value. Just remember you're not going to make your money back in 5-10 years unless the neighborhood goes "boom", but the equity in your home will be worth much more. This looks like a prominent house and one people see that house fixed up, others will move in.
February 7, 200916 yr Another concern I have is that I might not be able to get financing. I went to the bank yesterday to cash my paycheck. On my way out, one of the managers stopped me to ask about the house. (I had previously inquired about pre-approval--I was curious about what my borrowing power is in this tight credit climate) She said that their loan officer wanted more details about what the house needed because she was concerned that the house would need more money invested than it could be worth, and that's a risk for them. (I'm not sure if I'm explaining that right) They usually send out an inspector and appraiser that works specifically for the bank. Thats what they did for the SS apartment. It was in such bad shape the estimate, based on the other apartments, the same size helped. I did spend more money to renovate than I paid for it. I'm not sure how that would work with a SFH though.
February 7, 200916 yr Cleveland has a Home Restoration Loan program, check and see if Youngstown has something similar.
February 7, 200916 yr MTS, I don't know how much contractor labor costs in Youngstown. I hired independents based on referrals from one guy who had done a bunch of structural restorations in the neighborhood, and his recommendations were all good. Total cost depends on how much you have done by contractors, and how much you do yourself. Altogether I put a little more than $35K, both interior and exterior, into a 1,600-square foot pile of boards built in pieces between about 1860 and the 1920s. That was at prices ranging from 10-15 years ago, though. I paid $14,500 for the house back in 1977 and ran it into the ground as a rental for more than 10 years. It also depends on what level of decor/design you want. I spent a lot less on kitchen/bathroom work; I went for pretty much working-class design, functional and coherent, but no $350 faucets or $600 sinks. I even recycled my 1940s American Standard bathtub, moving it from a downstairs bathroom to a new bathroom upstairs by hoisting it through a hole in a floor that was not yet closed up. It's cast iron and weighs at least 400 pounds. I recycled 1955-vintage Youngstown steel kitchen cabinets from a house my parents were remodeling; I had layers of paint stripped from them at an industrial metal refinishing place, and had them repainted with glossy white automotive enamel. When I finished with the contractors, I had a basic shell with plumbing and electrical roughed in and inspected, and finished drywall. Kitchen and bathroom floors are one-piece Armstrong vinyl that I installed. I installed all the trim and woodwork throughout the house, salvaging and stripping some (it's all painted), and installing some new wood where the old was too bad to be saved. I installed all the sinks and cabinets and electrical fixtures, and did all the painting. Looking back it was a neat adventure, but I'm glad it's over. Never again! Would I build a new one in an old style, if I had the cash to spare? You betcha! Innaminnit! I already have the plans in my head.
February 7, 200916 yr MTS, I don't know how much contractor labor costs in Youngstown. I hired independents based on referrals from one guy who had done a bunch of structural restorations in the neighborhood, and his recommendations were all good. Total cost depends on how much you have done by contractors, and how much you do yourself. Altogether I put a little more than $35K, both interior and exterior, into a 1,600-square foot pile of boards built in pieces between about 1860 and the 1920s. That was at prices ranging from 10-15 years ago, though. I paid $14,500 for the house back in 1977 and ran it into the ground as a rental for more than 10 years. It also depends on what level of decor/design you want. I spent a lot less on kitchen/bathroom work; I went for pretty much working-class design, functional and coherent, but no $350 faucets or $600 sinks. I even recycled my 1940s American Standard bathtub, moving it from a downstairs bathroom to a new bathroom upstairs by hoisting it through a hole in a floor that was not yet closed up. It's cast iron and weighs at least 400 pounds. I recycled 1955-vintage Youngstown steel kitchen cabinets from a house my parents were remodeling; I had layers of paint stripped from them at an industrial metal refinishing place, and had them repainted with glossy white automotive enamel. When I finished with the contractors, I had a basic shell with plumbing and electrical roughed in and inspected, and finished drywall. Kitchen and bathroom floors are one-piece Armstrong vinyl that I installed. I installed all the trim and woodwork throughout the house, salvaging and stripping some (it's all painted), and installing some new wood where the old was too bad to be saved. I installed all the sinks and cabinets and electrical fixtures, and did all the painting. Looking back it was a neat adventure, but I'm glad it's over. Never again! Would I build a new one in an old style, if I had the cash to spare? You betcha! Innaminnit! I already have the plans in my head. I was just throwing out rough figures from 2000 when I bought. Just trying to give a general sense. Although, as my grand father told me, add 10-15% on top of that number incase of an unforeseen issue. The cabinets and bathroom sound cute. The one thing I wanted in my bathroom although I can't fit in it was a claw foot tub. I looked high and low for an old school model. I guess the savings will be know once we know how handy JRC is. lol
February 7, 200916 yr MTS, your estimate is close to $100k.(I think it could be less, but it's good to be conservative in this case) The seller, a bank, is currently asking $17,500, but I would offer something closer to $8k-10k. Unless the neighborhood does boom, or I decide to spend the next 20-30 years here, (and I wasn't planning to stay in Youngstown that long) I think I would lose a lot of money. Regardless of how much money I put into this place, I don't think it could be sold for more than 60k right now. It's too bad I can't see into the future to know whether the Youngstown 2010 plan, and new enthusiasm for the city will really help to bring back neighborhoods like these. Like Rob, I'm fairly handy. I could install plumbing and lighting fixtures, but would want a professional to do the rough-ins.
February 7, 200916 yr MTS, your estimate is close to $100k.(I think it could be less, but it's good to be conservative in this case) The seller, a bank, is currently asking $17,500, but I would offer something closer to $8k-10k. Unless the neighborhood does boom, or I decide to spend the next 20-30 years here, (and I wasn't planning to stay in Youngstown that long) I think I would lose a lot of money. Regardless of how much money I put into this place, I don't think it could be sold for more than 60k right now. It's too bad I can't see into the future to know whether the Youngstown 2010 plan, and new enthusiasm for the city will really help to bring back neighborhoods like these. Like Rob, I'm fairly handy. I could install plumbing and lighting fixtures, but would want a professional to do the rough-ins. Yeah, I'm more the expect and plan for the worst/most expensive issues, then work the budget type. Although, I say, splurge here and there. :wink: You have to pamper yourself a little.
February 7, 200916 yr This is an amazing looking property. It does need a ton of work, but as long as it's mostly cosmetic, it's not a big deal. I'm absolutely in love with the tile work in the entryway! Regarding your chimney, I had a similar problem last year, and I had to have a chimney professionally rebuilt. The mortar was gone on one side of it, and water started leaking in when snow would melt on the roof. Don't worry too much about the windows. Adding storm windows will help the old double hungs quite a bit, and they have models now that look historically appropriate. I'd definitely rerope all of the windows, which becomes easy after you've done 2 or 3 of them. I'd recommend window chain instead of rope. It looks nicer and will last forever. As for that decorative window, I'd tear the plaster right out of the back of that closet and lose the door. Having that window exposed would do a lot for the character of the room. Is that the only staircase in the house or are there two? If there are two, I'd just wall off that stairway and frame it out for an extra bathroom on both floors. That is, unless you can find historically appropriate banisters, etc to use. It would look silly with a handrail from Home Depot anyway, so you could devote the space to something old houses lack like a huge closet or extra bathroom. This is going to be a big project. It really needs to be a labor of love. If you're going to move in 2 or 3 years, it might not be worth doing. Whatever you do, make sure that you can get your money back out of the house. Some of the hardest decisions I had to make when I redid my old house involved being honest with myself on what I could get back out of the place if I had to sell it. If you do decide to move forward with this, I highly recommend that you do the roof first, then an entire bedroom, bathroom, and kitchen. That way you've got the essentials covered if you need to stop rehabbing for a month or two should money get tight. After that, you can move through the house one room at a time over the course of a year or two, which makes budgeting easier. I also don't know anything about the neighborhood. Make sure that it's a place where someone would want to own a nice house. It can be really hard to sell some houses in some neighborhoods.
February 8, 200916 yr Thanks for the reply Jimmy, I like those tiles, too. They are one of the few interior features that remain intact. Another surviving feature is the narrow board hardwood floors in the front rooms on the first floor. Was it expensive to have your chimney rebuilt? I wonder if that should be the second job, after getting a new roof? I'm sorry I don't have a picture of this, but there is a third fireplace in the entry parlor, and there was a pile of snow laying on the floor. That's another reason why I'm worried about the chimney on that side of the house. There is a bathroom between the "other" front bedroom and and kitchen bedroom. (I'm sorry I don't have a picture of this either--but it looked like a bad 50's remodel that has been half-demolished, anyway.) If I decide to take this on, I'll combine the back two bedrooms into a master suite. The house would still have 3 bedrooms, and it would then have 3 bathrooms. (there was also a bathroom on the first floor in the enclosed place behind the kitchen) That is the only interior stair. I don't know what I would do with that mess. I could see going very modern, or hiring a carpenter to recreate something period correct. The neighborhood is what makes this such a hard decision. Youngstown's north side was originally where the upper-class lived. Fifth ave, just down the street, is lined with mansions. This house would probably have been home to upper-management at the mills, or a lawyer or engineer, or something like that. But now, the neighborhood is a mix of low-income and college students. There are a lot of young professionals and college profs who live on the north side. But most are still choosing the upper north side before the lower, where this house is. It just occurred to me that there is probably yet another bathroom and "kitchen" in the attic. So, the house could have as many as 4 baths and still have 4-5 bedrooms after I reopen the attic. Or, maybe the attic could be the master suite?
February 8, 200916 yr Thanks for the reply Jimmy, I like those tiles, too. They are one of the few interior features that remain intact. Another surviving feature is the narrow board hardwood floors in the front rooms on the first floor. Was it expensive to have your chimney rebuilt? I wonder if that should be the second job, after getting a new roof? I'm sorry I don't have a picture of this, but there is a third fireplace in the entry parlor, and there was a pile of snow laying on the floor. That's another reason why I'm worried about the chimney on that side of the house. There is a bathroom between the "other" front bedroom and and kitchen bedroom. (I'm sorry I don't have a picture of this either--but it looked like a bad 50's remodel that has been half-demolished, anyway.) If I decide to take this on, I'll combine the back two bedrooms into a master suite. The house would still have 3 bedrooms, and it would then have 3 bathrooms. (there was also a bathroom on the first floor in the enclosed place behind the kitchen) That is the only interior stair. I don't know what I would do with that mess. I could see going very modern, or hiring a carpenter to recreate something period correct. The neighborhood is what makes this such a hard decision. Youngstown's north side was originally where the upper-class lived. Fifth ave, just down the street, is lined with mansions. This house would probably have been home to upper-management at the mills, or a lawyer or engineer, or something like that. But now, the neighborhood is a mix of low-income and college students. There are a lot of young professionals and college profs who live on the north side. But most are still choosing the upper north side before the lower, where this house is. It just occurred to me that there is probably yet another bathroom and "kitchen" in the attic. So, the house could have as many as 4 baths and still have 4-5 bedrooms after I reopen the attic. Or, maybe the attic could be the master suite? I wouldn't do the MS in the attic. Think resale value.
February 8, 200916 yr I agree with MTS about that attic. If it were a smaller house, maybe. But I think this place is big enough that I'm not sure adding that bedroom would help much. It's also nice to have an attic for storage, so I'd just make sure that it's clean, well insulated, and has a solid floor. Looks like you'll have enough to keep you busy in the rest of the house anyway. If you finish up and you still want that huge master bedroom in the attic, go for it. Was it expensive to have your chimney rebuilt? I wonder if that should be the second job, after getting a new roof? I'd definitely have the chimeny addressed right after the roof. I always think that the first jobs should be structural and/or designed to keep out the weather. Everything else can be addressed in time, but those kinds of issues can cause the house to further deteriorate while you're in mid-project. Mine was expensive, but I went with a contractor whose estimate was about triple those of the other contractors. I chose them because they were highly recommended, they seemed to understand exactly what the problem was, and they were upfront about what had to be done to save the chimney. The other contactors just wanted to redo the flashing and add some caulk. These guys said that the chimney needed to be tuck pointed and partially rebuilt, and they even pulled a couple of the bricks out by hand to illustrate how bad the problem was. Someone had vented the furnace into the chimney without lining it properly, and over the years the condensation had worn away a lot of the mortar. They noticed that I had a similar problem with my second chimney (something the other contractors ignored), so their estimate included repairing, lining, capping, and flashing two chimneys. The final talley was around $6000. Their work was incredible, they were professional to an insane level, and I'm quite sure that the problem wouldn't have disappeared with a little caulk, so they were definitely the right choice. Yours probably won't be as expensive, but I'd ask your home inspector to give some special attention to the chimney.
February 8, 200916 yr That house has a lot of gorgeous woodwork and potential if you can deal with the location. Don't stress about the fireplace mantles and stair railings. You can buy antique elements to fit any house at architectural salvage places. I know there is at least one large salvage store in Toledo, as well as a smaller one here in Columbus. If those don't have what you want then you can always go to Olde Good Things in Pa or Chicago. The salvage places have horrendous (ripoff) prices IMO, however when you are renovating an antique sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Another trick that has worked well for me in the past is to slip a 50 to a bulldozer driver on a demolition site when he's on his way to lunch. Most of them will look the other way for an hour or so, so take some friends and work fast. You wouldn't believe the number of houses demolished every day that have mantles, staircases, pocket doors, etc. Good luck!
February 8, 200916 yr I agree with MTS about that attic. If it were a smaller house, maybe. But I think this place is big enough that I'm not sure adding that bedroom would help much. It's also nice to have an attic for storage, so I'd just make sure that it's clean, well insulated, and has a solid floor. Looks like you'll have enough to keep you busy in the rest of the house anyway. If you finish up and you still want that huge master bedroom in the attic, go for it. Was it expensive to have your chimney rebuilt? I wonder if that should be the second job, after getting a new roof? I'd definitely have the chimeny addressed right after the roof. I always think that the first jobs should be structural and/or designed to keep out the weather. Everything else can be addressed in time, but those kinds of issues can cause the house to further deteriorate while you're in mid-project. Mine was expensive, but I went with a contractor whose estimate was about triple those of the other contractors. I chose them because they were highly recommended, they seemed to understand exactly what the problem was, and they were upfront about what had to be done to save the chimney. The other contactors just wanted to redo the flashing and add some caulk. These guys said that the chimney needed to be tuck pointed and partially rebuilt, and they even pulled a couple of the bricks out by hand to illustrate how bad the problem was. Someone had vented the furnace into the chimney without lining it properly, and over the years the condensation had worn away a lot of the mortar. They noticed that I had a similar problem with my second chimney (something the other contractors ignored), so their estimate included repairing, lining, capping, and flashing two chimneys. The final talley was around $6000. Their work was incredible, they were professional to an insane level, and I'm quite sure that the problem wouldn't have disappeared with a little caulk, so they were definitely the right choice. Yours probably won't be as expensive, but I'd ask your home inspector to give some special attention to the chimney. VERY VALID POINTS JIMMY AND THAT IS THE KIND OF CONTRACTOR YOU WANT. Make the attic a bonus or media room. Thats a plus in todays market.
February 8, 200916 yr Thanks for the advice about the attic. I'll probably just clean it up. I don't know if the third floor was originally finished, or it it was converted into an apartment more recently. (and if it was finished recently, the workmanship might be shoddy anyway) I'm not as worried about the missing fireplace mantles. I could design new ones, and possibly build them myself, depending on how ornate I make them. I don't know if I want to buy other antique mantles (or hardware, doors, etc.) to replace them though. That would be like paying the criminals who stole "my" mantles in the first place. Because of my line of work, I have access to a lot of knowledge about who are good and bad contractors in the area. Also, our accountant is also an accountant for a busy demolition contractor, and she has asked him to salvage stuff for the owner of my company before. So, I have a connection there, too. Oh, BTW, thanks for the link westerninterloper. I spent a lot of time last ngiht and this morning looking over his blog and webpage, and still have a lot to read.
February 8, 200916 yr Are you able to keep the third floor a rentable space during your renovations? At least that might pay the mortgage/property taxes/utilities if you could find a student to rent to.
February 8, 200916 yr Are you able to keep the third floor a rentable space during your renovations? At least that might pay the mortgage/property taxes/utilities if you could find a student to rent to. THATS a great idea. I guess he'd have to see it and maybe invest a couple of bucks to draw in a good tenant.
February 8, 200916 yr I'm undecided about the renting idea. I guess it depends on the condition of the attic apartment. I've heard horror stories about renters... but then again, what could they do to this house anyway, besides burn it down? I don't like that huge stair on the back of the house, though. It provides 2 additional entry points that are hidden from the street. (and, it looks like a lawsuit waiting to happen)
May 5, 200916 yr Well, not long after I made the previous post, a few things happened. First, my bank said they wouldn't lend money on a house that needed so much work. So, I got in contact with Resettle Youngstown, a Youngstown organization that is trying to encourage people to come back and restore/renovate some of the grand old houses on the north side. I was hoping they had some financing ideas about the house on Fairgreen. Then, my hours were cut by 20%, unexpectedly. But, the Resettle Youngstown group still wanted to talk with me, because they have properties that they could almost "give" to me. Because I could put in a lot of sweat equity, I could start some work, even though I don't have a lot of extra money. Yesterday, I met with them and we looked at 3 houses. House #1 Pro's and Con's not evident in the pictures: Pro's - Good location near others who have recently restored their house. - Large lot, space between neighbors, room for landscaping Con's - Asbestos, some friable/damaged - Next door to a parking lot. (though I'm told it's not often full) Here are the pics: Original woodwork hiding under plywood panelling. Seems usable, at least. Landing at top of stairs - go left or right. Maid's work area to the right of the stairs. Hall to the left of the stairs. This house was converted to a duplex a long time ago. It was subdivided into 4 units more recently. :( Original bath. (cool, IMO) Fireplace in the master bedroom, not bad. Stay tuned for house #2.
May 5, 200916 yr How big is that house? Huge. ~2300 sf, not including the attic. Is that considered "huge" or average?
May 5, 200916 yr Well, I guess that'd be relative. That's why it's nice he also gave us the absolute square footage.
May 5, 200916 yr House #2 Pro's and Con's not evident in the pictures: Pro's - Lived in until about a year ago. - Also near other houses that have been/are being renovated - Most neighboring houses remain intact Con's - Huge, apartment building next door, to the west. Owner is restoring other properties in neighborhood, and wants to restore this building. But, it's currently empty. - Also has asbestos, but appears intact. - No garage (resale) - This house is also large. ~2500 sf including attic and ~2000 sf not including attic. Here are the pics. I think it's evident that this house is in much better condition. Will probably need roof work sooner than later. Inside front door. Central foyer. Great room, to the left of the foyer. (looking toward the front of the house) Dining room, to the right of the foyer. Detail. Second floor: Bedroom 1 Bedroom 2 Bedroom 3 Bedroom 4 Attic I think this was a partial bathroom House #3 will come later.
May 5, 200916 yr look at all the great wood work. You'll have to scrape all that crap off the painted rooms.
May 5, 200916 yr Wow! Both of those are impressive, and neither one would scare me if I were 20 years younger with the stamina to put in a lot of work. Aesthetically I like the first one better because of the original fixtures like kitchen sinks and the style. The second house has a lot going for it in terms of location and overall condition. It looks a little more recent in style, but still has wonderful features like the detailed wood paneling, apparently intact and in good condition. I look forward to seeing number 3. Considering the size of those houses, even with good insulation and windows the heating bills could be pretty stiff. Steam heat is both a plus and a minus; a friend has it in his house, and I love how it's quiet and draft-free and gives the place a cozy feel. On the other hand, there's no ductwork to facilitate central air. I guess that's not a serious issue in a major rehab, though. It's a fairly straightforward job to tuck a pipe chase in a corner that will be behind an open door, or if the framing style permits, you can even hide ductwork inside a wall as if it were original construction. In my shack in Fort Wayne, I ripped out all the interior wall surfaces down to the wall studs and added 2x2s on the face of the studs to make a six-inch wall cavity for insulation (the wall studs were full 2x4 rough-sawed hardwood, not planed down like modern ones). I put in fibreglas and followed it up with plastic sheet for a vapor barrier before installing drywall. During that work I put firestops inside the walls, too; the house didn't have any between the first and second floors. Firestops are an important thing to check when you have the walls open; in my other house, built in 1919, the builders set 18-foot 2x4s on the sill plate, running all the way to the attic. All the joists were nailed into the sides of the studs, so there was an open flue all the way from the basement to the attic and into the space between the first-storey ceiling and second-storey floor. That was common construction practice in that era, and a fire originating in the basement when no one's home can fully involve the entire house before anyone notices it from outside. A cousin's house went that way; a neighbor saw the siding start to smoke and called the fire department, and while he was on the phone the entire house suddenly erupted in flames. Insulation in the walls helps form a barrier to impede the spread of a fire, but it doesn't stop it. Youngstown is awesome yet, and I'm happy to see that there are people who care about keeping it that way. :clap:
May 5, 200916 yr I hate to say it, but the 3rd house is likely to be disappointing when compared to the first two. Pro's and Con's Pro's - No asbestos - Newer forced-air furnace - Closest to YSU and adjacent to vacant lots to the west. (lots of room for landscaping) - Potentially interesting history - one of the oldest houses on the north side, built in 1892. (according to the county auditor) Con's - At least one problem neighbor. - Not too thrilled with the "Swiss Chalet" style of architecture. - Relatively plain, smaller house. (though a little bigger than my current house) - One bathroom on first floor. - Only 2 of the 3 bedrooms are of a usable size. Pics: I don't think those corner cabinets are original.
Create an account or sign in to comment