Personally, if it can be guaranteed that the Bombers will stay in Dayton, I'm all for this.  Also, as usual, the comment section is chocked full of insane rhetoric.

 

New Hockey Arena Proposed for Downtown

By Joanne Huist Smith, Staff Writer

Tuesday, February 10, 2009

 

DAYTON — Costa Papista, the owner or the Dayton Bombers, wants to develop a recreation/multipurpose hockey arena with two sheets of ice on the site of Dave Hall Plaza downtown.  Papista, on Tuesday, Feb. 10, said the key to moving the project forward — at a cost of under $30 million — will be bringing the right developer to the table, and, gaining support of the community.

 

"At the moment, I'd say we're working diligently to see if it's feasible," Papista said. "We're doing our homework and part of that is determining if we have community support."  Also key, Papista said, is construction at the right price.  "It is not going to be the Taj Mahal. It will be a beautiful facility with curb appeal," he said.

 

The arena would connect with the Crowne Plaza Hotel and the Dayton Convention Center.  The main rink would have seating for up to 5,500, with the practice rink having 400 to 500 seats.  The facility would be home to the Bombers and host local youth and adult hockey leagues, high school hockey teams.

 

Full article: http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2009/02/10/ddn021009arenablogweb.html

 

Does this seem realistic?

Does Dayton have a professional hockey team?!

It has a "popular" minor league team and downtown DOES need an arena so...

It has a "popular" minor league team and downtown DOES need an arena so...

I didn't know.  I figured an arena would be built if there was a tenant.

Hi all,

 

We broke this story on the DMM Forum last night - the DDN is getting quicker at getting news from our site as they put out a story this morning (and originally gave us credit until the changed they article to be more 'official').  I'm on the new Greater Downtown Dayton Planning Committee and we have been discussing this with the owner of the Bombers over the past several weeks.

 

For the Bombers - they are struggling at the Nutter Center because of a terrible location and an arena that is much too large and feels way too empty for the typical audience.  Moving downtown makes sense for them because it is a much smaller arena (5,500 vs 10,000) and it is within walking distance to several downtown bars and restaurants (including the OD).

 

For Downtown Dayton, this makes sense on MANY levels.  First, the addition of another minor league team sports team is always a plus for downtown.  But ironically the Bombers would play a relatively small role when compared to the MANY other uses for the arena.   

• The region has several youth hockey leagues and adult leagues, and ice is high in demand.  (they also are known to rent ice time at times from 6am to midnight).
  
• The new arena could be used for basketball tournaments and other sports - and with the adjacent Crown Plaza hotel, imagine the state tournaments that could happen there.
  
• A 5500-seat arena makes for a perfect concert venue for medium-tier music acts; if promoted effectively, Dayton could get a few music acts that currently play in Cinci or Columbus - knowing that Dayton could draw an audience from both larger cities (there is precedent for this with smaller acts at Canal Street Tavern)
  
• There are three parking garages that surround this downtown arena location with over 2,000 parking spaces (Transportation Center garage has over 1,400) - not to mention many street meters that are free after 6pm and all day Saturday and Sunday
  
• This arena would be connected to the Crown Plaza Hotel - which could actually supply food for events
  
• This new downtown arena could serve as an extension to the Dayton Convention Center across the street and connected by an existing skywalk
  
• This would be an example of Sustainable Development because it uses existing infrastructure as opposed to building all new parking garages, hotels, sewers, streets, etc.  The same can not be said for the proposed Austin Road arena.
  

 

Finally, while many have expressed disappointment in losing Dave Hall Plaza, the Greater Downtown Dayton Planning committee is working on developing alternative green space in several downtown locations, which could more than make up the loss of DHP.  Also, DHP was actually originally planned for development, not a park - but that development fell through and nothing else ever happened.  So this has always been available for development.

 

You can see renderings of the new arena here.

^There aren't any renderings at the link provided.

Check out this urban ohio thread, where i post pix of the planned big box and what it will replace. 

 

 

My opinion is that downtown Dayton is so fup duck machts nichts if its even more so by another big box.

For everyone's viewing pleasure, I'm just going to cross-post those images into this thread...

 

 

That areiel does a good job of demonstrating how desolate downtown is.

 

If they kept that glass and side facade treatment the arena might be nice.  But you can just see this being dropped as too expensive and the real thing would look more like a big box than this fairly active design.

 

They show a lot of people in front.  In reality the users would be coming in from the parking garage visible at the top of the aeriel.

 

 

 

 

Does this seem realistic?

 

Maybe a Hamilton County style sales tax?

If they kept that glass and side facade treatment the arena might be nice.  But you can just see this being dropped as too expensive and the real thing would look more like a big box than this fairly active design.

 

You're probably right...especially in the age of value-engineering we live in today.

 

 

They show a lot of people in front.  In reality the users would be coming in from the parking garage visible at the top of the aeriel.

 

Maybe they should move the plaza area over to the side where the garage is then.

^

They'd be coming over from the garage on a skywalk.  Here is the site plan (the plaza is really a loading/unloading area)

 

 

    Professional atheletes may have their own baggage trucks and equipment managers, but the hordes of amateur hockey players and youth players are going to have to haul their truckloads of sweaty hockey gear from their cars to the rink, and they need a place to store the gear until game time.

 

    (That lobby looks pretty small.)

C-Dawg, for the first time ever, you made me laugh. Kudos

The land will be free, but yeah, thanks for that intel on the costs. The BG arena looks pretty  neat, actually.

 

Is it just hockey or are there other things too?

Dave Hall Plaza is probably the most underutilized city park I've ever seen.  A couple of so-so music fests in the summer and that is it.  If that area was booming with residential buildings and life, and if that park was full of people other than a few homeless folks more than a couple times a year then I could see being more opposed to losing that park - but honestly, that part of downtown is DEAD.  If an arena helps bring more life to that block then IMO it makes sense to sacrifice DHP.

 

I do absolutely agree, however, with the concern about this nice looking glass-rendering ending up looking like a big sterile box.  But knowing many people at the city's planning department (including its director), I am confident that the city would not allow anything that diminishes the pedestrian experience surrounding any new building or arena in downtown.  I was in the BZA meetings that made CareSource go back to the drawing board a few times before they finally came back with a design that was acceptable to the Main Street sidewalk environment.  In fact, the building's relationship to the sidewalk was the most discussed issue.  I wasn't around for those same meetings for the Schuster building but that too has an abundance of glass that compliments the walking environment outside.

 

These renderings are just that - renderings.  If (and that is a big if) this project is to get off the ground, the final product may end up looking much different.  So don't take too much stock in those drawings - they are meant to inspire and show what it could look like.  But I hope people keep a little more open mind to the possibility rather than assume it will end up looking atrocious.

The loss of Dave Hall Plaza is nothing to complain about, that has to be the worst greenspace in the state; those mounds kill me. As far as the site plan, I don't like the parking lot on Main Street; that could be a small plaza/greenspace or they could shift the arena to be centered in the block between Main and Jefferson to create a small plaza from both sides.

 

If the Dayton region needs an arena, I'd much rather see it downtown than at Austin Road.

Honestly, it's not a bad idea, and we could actually use it, especially if it's tied into the Convention Center so that it can host larger events.

 

Most suburbians that this will draw in won't care whether the building is aesthetically pleasing, but they will care about parking, nearby restraunts, etc., and it really seems like an ideal location with the underutulized (and way ugly) transportation center parking garage located right there and the oregon district and main street restaurants within a couple blocks.

 

A lot of the "extras" that would be required to build this in a cornfield are already in place, and it will also bring down about 6,000 people a night for about 30 or so times. Add in the fact that each of these individuals will spend about $30 each, and you get a total of about $600,000 in revenue flowing to the center city. If we could convince these people to stick around for a little while, that amount could expand rapidly.

^ actually the Dayton Bombers would be a tiny part of this as they only play 40 (?) home games a year.  It is everything else the arena could be used for that have already been mentioned - concerts, youth and adult hockey leagues, basketball tournaments, winter guard - the list goes on.  And consider that this would greatly expand the convention center - imagine the events that the convention center could draw with that added space that they can't currently attract.

 

Compared to Austin Road, it is a no-brainer.  This adds more life to downtown as opposed to spreading it further into sprawl land.  And the fact that there are three EXISTING parking garages with well over 2,000 spaces - and existing infrastructure like streets, sewers, etc. - means this is in fact a sustainable development.  Austin Road would require all new - not sustainable development and ironically much more expensive.

One more thing - if this is built at Austin Road, it will have all of the charm that Nutter Center has - a big arena in a sea of nothingness.  I don't know anybody that likes going to the Nutter Center.

Dave Hall Plaza is probably the most underutilized city park I've ever seen.  A couple of so-so music fests in the summer and that is it.  If that area was booming with residential buildings and life, and if that park was full of people other than a few homeless folks more than a couple times a year then I could see being more opposed to losing that park

 

I don't think its necessary to de-value Dave Hall Plaza and the events there too much , since most people don't care much about the place.

 

I just think it's going to be another crap building.  But since its surrounded on two sides by crap builidngs (and for most of a third by another garage and parking lot), no biggy.

 

The benefit to this site is really the parking.  People are going to drive here and since this is deeper into downtown then 5th/3rd Field people will want parking close at hand...within view or a short walk.  There is that huge county garage across Main Street, too (if arrangements could be made to use it after-hours), for extra event parking.

 

 

 

 

More media on the hockey thang:

 

Bombers see benefit to smaller home

Team president says moving to a proposed 5,500-seat arena would drive up demand for tickets.

Dayton Daily News

By Lynn Hulsey

Sunday, February 15, 2009

 

When Costa Papista imagines his Dayton Bombers playing in a shiny new 5,500-seat downtown Dayton hockey arena, he sees excited fans loving the intimate setting and cheering for a winning team.  And that, Papista believes, will translate into increased ticket sales to fans who will clamor for the opportunity to see a Bombers game.

 

Experts say there is something to the smaller-is-better theory, giving credence to Papista's belief that his team will draw more fans in an arena that is less expansive than its current home at Wright State University's Nutter Center, which seats 9,500 when configured for hockey.  Papista said the Bombers now average 3,600 tickets per game, a number he wants to increase to at least 4,500.

 

"You want to make sure you right-size the facility for the primary tenant," said Julie Skolnicki, the Columbus-based regional vice president of Brailsford and Dunlavey, a Washington, D.C., facilities planning and program management firm.

 

Full article at http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2009/02/15/ddn021509arena.html

This was on the front page today.  Its like "Wha? Toledo is building a downtown arena?  Who knew?".  Big construction pix too, captioned "The puck drops for the Toledo Walleye in October"

 

 

Toledo hockey arena opens in fall; Could Dayton do the same?

By William Hershey

Staff Writer

Monday, February 16, 2009

 

TOLEDO — Courtney Ishman can't wait until the puck drops in October for the Toledo Walleye when pro hockey gets a fresh start in a $105 million brick, glass and stone downtown arena.  "I like beer and hockey and men," said Ishman, a server at The Blarney Irish Pub in her "high 20s."  Construction continues on Toledo's arena while two arena projects spark discussion in Montgomery County.     

 

Toledo's arena will complete what Lucas County Commissioner Pete Gerken calls the "urban trifecta."  An overhead footbridge will connect it to the SeaGate Convention Center.  Both are a block from Toledo's own Fifth Third Field, where the Toledo Mud Hens play baseball.       

 

The arena also will be home to the Toledo Bullfrogs, a new arenafootball2 franchise.  With concerts and other attractions, the arena is expected to host 110 events a year to go along with the Mud Hens' 72 home games.  There'll be 8,000 seats for hockey and football and 9,500 for concerts.  The city has been without pro hockey since 2007 when the Sports Arena where the Toledo Storm played was razed.

 

Full article at http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2009/02/16/ddn021609toledo.html

Can you include the links to your posted newspaper articles?

More media on the hockey thang:

 

Toledo arena has no big-money sponsor, but the fans are ready

Dayton Daily News

By William Hershey

Monday, February 16, 2009

 

The new multipurpose arena going up in downtown Toledo so far is named after Lucas County, a sign of the times.  Companies that a few years ago eagerly emptied their vaults for the privilege of flashing their names across new baseball parks and sports arenas are feeling the hard times just like everybody else.  However, Joseph Napoli, president of the Walleye hockey club and the arena2 football Bullfrogs, is upbeat.  Napoli also said they're "close to having sold 18 of 20" suites that will ring the arena's top level.  The suites go for $400,000 for a 10-year lease for just the sports events and $550,000 for 10 years for all arena events, said Lucas County Commissioner Pete Gerken.

 

Gerken said officials intentionally left the city without pro hockey for two years to make a clean break from the old Sports Arena in east Toledo where the Storm played.  The goal was to cultivate a more family-friendly atmosphere at the new place by marketing the Walleye hockey team.  The team will play in the East Coast Hockey League with the Dayton Bombers.

 

Cost: $105 million

Opening: October 2009

Seating: 8,000 for hockey, arena2 football; 9,500 for concerts

Construction: Brick, glass, stone

Size: Three levels, 270,000 square feet

Location: Downtown warehouse district, one block from Fifth Third Field, home of the Toledo Mud Hens

 

Full article at http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2009/02/16/ddn021609toledoinside.html

That DDN article was hilarious. They used a picture from like nine months ago. The Toledo arena is almost done. This is from January:

 

 

It may not be cheap, but Toledo knows how to do an urban arena right.  Good for them, it looks great.

^

Chevrolet Center in Youngstown (+/- $42M, 5700 hockey seats) and the arena in Bloomington Illinois ($34M- $35M, 7000 hockey seats) are also examples closer to the Dayton estimate, which I think is lowball.

 

My big concern is they are going to tear down a fairly mature downtown park for crap rather than do what Toldeo did and put in a quality facility.  I can just see a somewhat jazzed-up Butler building going up on the Dave Hall Plaza site.

 

Also, reading the article you can see Papistas is de-emphasising the multi-use aspect.

 

 

Another interesting angle is that the Mudhens' new ballfield has apparently spun off some food and drink places in the warehouse district, which is near this new arena 

 

Does anyone have a count on that?  On how many establishments the Mudhens ballpark has attracted?

 

 

Another interesting angle is that the Mudhens' new ballfield has apparently spun off some food and drink places in the warehouse district, which is near this new arena  

 

Does anyone have a count on that? On how many establishments the Mudhens ballpark has attracted?

 

 

 

Another question that may be just as relevant is - how many bars/restaurants already existed near Toledo's Fifth Third Field, and how many existing buildings were there that had realistic potential to locate a bar/restaurant in?  In Dayton's case, we have one lonely bar & grill that opened because of the Dragons (Brixx), and no empty buildings that would make sense for a bar/restaurant.  So as much as people say the Dragons have been a huge success, I question whether or not those who decided on that location had any plan for subsequent development.  I am guessing not.

 

The proposed hockey arena at DHP in Dayton is within easy walking distance to several restaurants and bars in three directions (not much south of that location).  And with more than just hockey happening there, the potential for a larger customer base for those existing restaurants and bars is greater than around Fifth Third Field.  Not to mention that I'd guess hockey fans are more likely to go get drinks and food after a game than the typical family that goes to the Dragons game, has a couple hot dogs and gets back in the minivan and drives back to the burbs right after the game (if they even make it to the end of the game).

So as much as people say the Dragons have been a huge success, I question whether or not those who decided on that location had any plan for subsequent development.  I am guessing not.

 

Another job for the downtown plan...

 

For downtown there are the following a block or less out from the site:

 

1. Gillys

 

2. Pearl

 

3. Hammerjax

 

4. Century

 

5. Cold Beer and Cheeseburgers

 

6. Spaghetti Warehouse.

 

7. The top floor jazz bar at Crown Plaza

 

So a good number.  I guess one can figure which ones of these would appeal to hockey fans more than others. The trick is to ID possible sites for new establishments that are close to the Arena and the parking.  Here are a few:

 

a. Fifth between Main and Ludlow.

 

b. The old Elbos space

 

c. The ground floor of the Center City Building (north side of 4th)

 

d. The vacant spaces in the old Elks Building (the storefronts between Century and 3rd).

 

Then there's the Oregon, which is technically within walking distance. 

 

The problem and risk here is that there'll be a repeat of the arts/performance things (which includes Broadway shows) and Dragons games, in that the locals just get in their cars and drive out to suburbia to party or eat out. It would be even easier to do this because the transportation center garage will be directly connected to the arena via a skywalk, so there wont be street level traffic from that particular garage (but thats just one garage).

 

I think its an open question on how much spin-off there will be from an arena.  It seems there might be, but whats the track record elsewhere, and is 'eslewere' comparable to Dayton.

 

Behind this is the locals tendancy to scoot out of town after dark after an event.  THe hope is that hockey fans will be different.

 

 

 

 

Hmmm.. interesting, while nice.. does Dayton really need three arenas?

Hmmm.. interesting, while nice.. does Dayton really need three arenas?

 

No, just as Cincinnati does not need 5 arenas.  The new ones are making the old ones more and more obsolete, but the old ones aren't disappearing as they probably should.

^Cincinnati Gardens sits virtually empty.  It used to hold Cincinnati Cyclones hockey games, Silverbacks indoor soccer, Xavier Basketball, boxing, etc.

 

Now Cintas Center, on XU's campus, has most of the boxing events, XU Basketball, Cyclones have moved downtown to the renovated US Bank Arena, and the Silverbacks are gone altogether.  Club hockey is still helf there for UC and XU, but nothing that pays the bills.  The surrounding area is a real dump to boot.

 

5/3 (on UC's campus) gets heavy use, Cintas does as well.  US Bank Arena seems to justify its existence with concerts and other random events and the new Bank of Kentucky Center seems to be attracting its own host of events to make it worthwhile.

Don't forget Hara!

 

LOL

 

(still love Hara because its in my 'hood)

Hmmm.. interesting, while nice.. does Dayton really need three arenas?

 

No, just as Cincinnati does not need 5 arenas.  The new ones are making the old ones more and more obsolete, but the old ones aren't disappearing as they probably should.

 

But neither UD Arena or the Nutter Center are obsolete and neither school will move events to this new arena.

High school graduation ceremonies will most likely move to the new arena being proposed here.  The size is better and it will be newer.  There are probably a number of these events that will move to the new arena thus hurting the bottom lines of the existing arenas.

 

Like in Cincinnati, UD and Nutter will stay around and be fine due to their guaranteed events with the universities, but the overall financial health of these arenas will deteriorate.  Just like 5/3 Arena in Cincy when Cintas opened, and likewise when Bank of Kentucky Arena opened.  The whole process just spreads the wealth around.

C-Dawg made a good point about costs:

 

Here's a rough comparison of some recent smaller arena costs:

 

Dayton Dave Hall Plaza: $30M, 5700 seats

$5.3K/seat

 

Dayton Austin Road: $60M to $100M, 7,000 seats,

$8.6K to $14.3K/seat

 

Toledo: $105M, 8,000 seats

$13.2K/seat

 

Bowling Green, OH: $36M, 5000 seats

$7.2K/seat

 

Youngstown: $42M, 5,700 seats

$7.4K/seat

 

Bloomington, IL: $37M, 6600 seats (2005 construction)

$5.6K/seat

 

@@@@

 

I understand what ColDayMan was saying about the arena district in Cols, and that would be a good model for development as the urban design forces pedestrian traffic from garages and emphasises mixed use. 

looking at the Livesearch birds-eyes for the Bloomington arena (comparbale in cost to the Dayton DHP proposal), not imressed.  It looks like a big convention center both a maybe more street-oriented front facade.

 

 

I understand what ColDayMan was saying about the arena district in Cols, and that would be a good model for development as the urban design forces pedestrian traffic from garages and emphasises mixed use. 

 

Bingo.  The Toledo (and Grand Rapids) Arena fit the space but are not wholistic in their approach on creating a vibrant, livable section.  The Arena District is a perfect example on how to blend a wonderful, urban arena with housing, restaurants, shops/bars, and a future transit hub.  Dayton needs to look beyond "comparable" areas and start looking in raising the bar in getting a quality product.  Look at the Schuster Center on how to "raise the bar" right.

Darn that hammer/axe thingie!

Dave Hall Plaza is sort of a land bank.  The place was landscaped 30 years ago as a temporary measure until a use could be found for the site.  Instead, the place became an "accidental" city park. 

 

There have been various things proposed for the site, which was cleared for a downtown shopping mall..think a 1960s-style Columbus City Center.  I guess we are lucky that that didnt get built

 

Its a nice festival site in the summer, but there are only three festivals.

 

There is a alot of negative talk about DHP now that this arena is being proposed since the site has to be de-valued to remove objections.

 

 

 

 

The only thing that is driving an arena at this site is that big parking garage across from Jefferson Street.  Otherwise I think people would be interesed in a site around the Dragons' single A stadium and an "arena district" type of solution.

 

Yet there are questions on that, too (by me).

 

 

 

 

 

^Yeah, damn the axe, haha! :wink: We can't even have a good argument these days. I blame the recession.

 

Dayton needs to look beyond "comparable" areas and start looking in raising the bar in getting a quality product.

 

Dayton needs to be realistic. That was basically the main point of my argument. I'm sure everyone in Dayton would love the Arena District, but we're not talking about a budget of $200 million. We're not talking the $100 million spent in Toledo and Grand Rapids either.

 

All we've seen so far is the $30 million number. Let's get real and keep this in perspective. The budget is low, and money doesn't grow on trees (unless you lived in America prior to 2008). This is likely not going to be a big project.

 

And another point I want to make is that this might not be the best site for an arena. This will destroy a nice city park. I studied some aerials of the CBD and area around the Single-A baseball stadium, and I see some large surface lots suitable for a municipal arena. I think that's the way to go. There are other options. I'd rather see parking lots destroyed than parkland destroyed. I mean, is Dayton willing to sacrifice this park instead of sacrificing some surface lots? Maybe there should be a vote on this...

 

I know people were talking a lot of sh!t about Dave Hall Plaza, but what's so wrong with having a park like that?

 

Dave Hall Plaza is Dayton's equivalent to Toledo's Portside.  A disaster that should've never been creative.  Regarding the Arena District, who isn't to say the budget won't grow?  Private funding or including a company (in Columbus' case, Nationwide; in Dayton's case, NCR) could ignite interest in creating a district aside from a simple arena.  Again, why I prefer to use the Columbus model over the Toledo/Grand Rapids/Youngstown one.

Hmmm.. interesting, while nice.. does Dayton really need three arenas?

 

No, just as Cincinnati does not need 5 arenas. The new ones are making the old ones more and more obsolete, but the old ones aren't disappearing as they probably should.

 

But neither UD Arena or the Nutter Center are obsolete and neither school will move events to this new arena.

 

UD Hockey's team would probably use the downtown arena instead of the Kettering Rec ice rink.  They've been looking to upgrade their situation for awhile.

Dave Hall Plaza is sort of a land bank. The place was landscaped 30 years ago as a temporary measure until a use could be found for the site. Instead, the place became an "accidental" city park.

 

There have been various things proposed for the site, which was cleared for a downtown shopping mall..think a 1960s-style Columbus City Center. I guess we are lucky that that didnt get built

 

Its a nice festival site in the summer, but there are only three festivals.

 

There is a alot of negative talk about DHP now that this arena is being proposed since the site has to be de-valued to remove objections.

 

 

 

 

The only thing that is driving an arena at this site is that big parking garage across from Jefferson Street. Otherwise I think people would be interesed in a site around the Dragons' single A stadium and an "arena district" type of solution.

 

Yet there are questions on that, too (by me).

 

 

 

 

 

 

^Agreed.  Most of the people that are so willing to build anything on DHP have probably never set foot on the site, especially during an outdoor event.  It is a much more genuine "downtown" park because of its proximity to tall buildings.  [your pictures are worth a thousand words]

Hmmm.. interesting, while nice.. does Dayton really need three arenas?

 

No, just as Cincinnati does not need 5 arenas.  The new ones are making the old ones more and more obsolete, but the old ones aren't disappearing as they probably should.

 

But neither UD Arena or the Nutter Center are obsolete and neither school will move events to this new arena.

 

UD Hockey's team would probably use the downtown arena instead of the Kettering Rec ice rink.  They've been looking to upgrade their situation for awhile.

 

Yes, but that's a club hockey program.. not exactly reeling in the big fish with UD club hockey.

 

Oh, is that why I got the PM? Sorry  :oops:

Agreed.  Most of the people that are so willing to build anything on DHP have probably never set foot on the site, especially during an outdoor event.  It is a much more genuine "downtown" park because of its proximity to tall buildings.  [your pictures are worth a thousand words]

 

Thanks, though I should point out the ColDayMan's is a professional opinion since I think he has a LA degree.  Though I personally dont think that park is that bad...but it is sort of dented by the truly strange Crowne Plaza (the brick and concrete new brutalist design makes the building look like it was lifted from some UK New Town, not like a US hotel)