According to latest commuting data, a higher percentage of Summit County workers commute to Cuyahoga than Stark commuters to Summit county. So one could say that Akron and Cleveland are actually slightly more blurred as a region. Furthermore, in terms of reliance, almost 15% of Summit residents go to Cuyahoga while only 3% of Cuyahoga residents work in Summit. 

1 hour ago, ColDayMan said:

Akron is not directly tied economically to Cleveland.  They can share things (media market, Blossom, etc) but Akron is its own separate, functional city/metro.  It has its own airport (with Canton), its own Fortune 500, its own "bag" (as the kids say).  And the residents are certainly not directly tied; I know many in Akron who haven't been to Cleveland in years (and I'm sure vice-versa as well).

The shared television market still gets me. The Akron MSA is larger than Toledo but by my peek has no network stations outside of PBS? Is any local television news produced from Akron? It must be one of the largest MSAs not have a full range of local news outlets - maybe Riverside CA would be the only one larger? 

1 hour ago, ColDayMan said:

 

...which is why they are a CSA.  Clearly Cleveland and Akron are separate metropolitan areas but due to that overlap in northern Summit County and I'm sure other edge counties, that's why they have Combined into a Statistical Area.  Thus, everyone gets what they want; Akron and Cleveland are still their own separate metros with their own suburbs, independent economic juice, etc but in a regional sense, they overlap at their edges and thus the CSA.

 

 

Akron is not directly tied economically to Cleveland.  They can share things (media market, Blossom, etc) but Akron is its own separate, functional city/metro.  It has its own airport (with Canton), its own Fortune 500, its own "bag" (as the kids say).  And the residents are certainly not directly tied; I know many in Akron who haven't been to Cleveland in years (and I'm sure vice-versa as well).

 

Bold text:  No, everyone does not get what they want:  Cleveland is a 3MM city, but it shows up as 2MM so it is overlooked by major retailers and companies. That hurts CLE, but it also hurts Akron too.

 

Re second paragraph:  The economy of Akron DOES have linkages to CLE. Also, yes, it has AN airport, but I'd say MOST people in summit county probably use Hopkins more frequently than they do CAK given the greater amounts of airlines and service.  Re "I know many in Akron who haven't been to Cleveland in years (and I'm sure vice-versa as well)." I'd say the percentage of Clevelander who haven't recently been to or have never been to Akron is to be much higher than Akronites who haven't been to CLE in a while. The draw here is not equal--CLE will pull people from Akron (not vice versa) hence part of the argument that Akron is part of CLE.

I'm trying to think of another pair of counties like Cuyahoga and Summit that border each other and are a separate MSA.

 

I understand how MSA are different from CSAs, so I'm not arguing with the fact of it, just that it's interesting how these two cities have managed to not integrate more than they have. Perhaps its because Cleveland started out so much larger than Akron, which is more of an early 20th Century Detroit-style boomtown, compared with Cleveland's deeper roots in the industrial revolution?

^The national park between the two areas creates a giant gap of population and economic activity---that may play a role.  Re other areas---NYC and Newark, NJ maybe?

7 minutes ago, Pugu said:

^The national park between the two areas creates a giant gap of population and economic activity---that may play a role.  Re other areas---NYC and Newark, NJ maybe?

If you're suggesting other areas that are not part of the same MSA, that doesn't work.  I am pretty sure Newark is in the New York MSA (Pretty sure it's the New York-Newark-Jersey City NY NJ PA MSA.)  

In my mind The Cleveland Akron are function the most like a smaller version of Dallas/Fort Worth or San Jose/San Francisco/Oakland. 

 

Two cities that have their own thing with suburban areas in between.

 

The difference is Cleveland/Akron/Canton have not come up with a cohesive branding of the combined region and whatever metrics the Feds need to make it one MSA have not been met, at least with the Akron MSA and Cleveland MSA.

 

There is, as we all know the 3.5mm Cleveland-Akron-Canton CSA, which is acknowledgement that there is interconnectivity here.

Edited May 7, 20214 yr by Mov2Ohio

2 minutes ago, jdm00 said:

If you're suggesting other areas that are not part of the same MSA, that doesn't work.  I am pretty sure Newark is in the New York MSA (Pretty sure it's the New York-Newark-Jersey City NY NJ PA MSA.)  

Newark and NYC are also in different states, both are the largest cities in their respective states, which would make separate MSAs understandable, if they were separate. CVNP is also too recent to explain the historical division of CLE and AKR metro areas. I'm guessing the likely answer is they developed relatively independently of the other, which would explain the weak commuting patterns maintaining the separate Areas. CLE as a center of steel and oil, AKR -- tires. I'd guess Toledo and Detroit are as likely to be connected economically as CLE and AKR, given the connection to the auto industry ties between the two cities. I know quite a few people here in Toledo who commute to manufacturing jobs in metro Detroit. 

1 hour ago, jdm00 said:

If you're suggesting other areas that are not part of the same MSA, that doesn't work.  I am pretty sure Newark is in the New York MSA (Pretty sure it's the New York-Newark-Jersey City NY NJ PA MSA.)  

 

If NYC and Newark--two separate "independent" cities--are in the same MSA, then without a doubt, CLE and Akron should be in the same MSA.

2 hours ago, bwheats said:

According to latest commuting data, a higher percentage of Summit County workers commute to Cuyahoga than Stark commuters to Summit county. So one could say that Akron and Cleveland are actually slightly more blurred as a region. Furthermore, in terms of reliance, almost 15% of Summit residents go to Cuyahoga while only 3% of Cuyahoga residents work in Summit. 

The problem with those stats are {a] the threshold for merging Metros are the major counties must have 25 percent commute{b[ the total commute level between Summit and Stark counties are 39 percent..per the Greater Akron/Greater Canton chambers of Commerce. So withstanding some other factor, like politics, Metro Akron  and Metro Canton meet the O.M.B requirements for a merger and Cuyahoga/Summit does not.

4 hours ago, westerninterloper said:

The shared television market still gets me. The Akron MSA is larger than Toledo but by my peek has no network stations outside of PBS? Is any local television news produced from Akron? It must be one of the largest MSAs not have a full range of local news outlets - maybe Riverside CA would be the only one larger? 

 

San Jose, Bridgeport, etc.

3 hours ago, Mov2Ohio said:

There is, as we all know the 3.5mm Cleveland-Akron-Canton CSA, which is acknowledgement that there is interconnectivity here.

 

And really, that's all that needs to be said.  I can see if Akron or Canton weren't a part of a larger CSA but they are so I don't know what the problem here is.  Cleveland is a metro; Akron is a metro; Canton is a metro; Combined, they form a larger region called a Combined Statistical Area. 

^ yes and all in all the cuyahoga national park is the more important crux of this. can you imagine if it was not made a park or just a flat cornfield? the sprawl?? no thanks. i’ll take the wonderful park and these metro divisions over a sprawlburbian nightmare any day. we all have more than enough of that.

Does Akron meet the commuting requirements to be a part of Cleveland's metro?  

The way metros are defined has long been a source of annoyance to me. As an example, the Phoenix Metro is 15,000 square miles with a population of about 4.5 million. If you put the Columbus Metro and Northeast Ohio (not just the Cleveland Metro, but ALL of Northeast Ohio) together, you have a land area of about 12,000 square miles that has a population of almost 7 million people. This imaginary Ohio metro would basically encompass all of central and northeast Ohio, and would be the sixth largest metro by population. So the metro definitions, while understandable, will always be sort of deceiving. Urban area (though imperfect) is the best way to define population in accordance with lived experience of being in various cities, as I think a perusal of the Wikipedia listing demonstrates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_areas

 

But stepping back, I know I only care about all of this because I'm a demographics nerd, like many on this site. Boston and San Francisco technically have metros with populations smaller than the Phoenix metro. But I think anyone would recognize that Phoenix is really incomparable to either Boston or San Francisco. We live in cities in real life, not on paper. If there's an argument for any paper change, it would be a city-county consolidation both for the efficiencies and because it makes per capita income and crime rates in Cleveland look better so that Cleveland wouldn't show up so badly on those lists. But again, people live in cities in real life, not on paper. I think this town is moving the right way and I pray the real census numbers will show at least a teeny bit of urban population growth which is critical for the region to be the best it can be no matter how it's divvied up on paper.

2 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said:

If there's an argument for any paper change, it would be a city-county consolidation both for the efficiencies and because it makes per capita income and crime rates in Cleveland look better so that Cleveland wouldn't show up so badly on those lists. But again, people live in cities in real life, not on paper.

This is a big pet peeve of mine as well. Cleveland is not that much more dangerous than other cities around the country if you balloon out the city limits like many other large cities have done. When you look at MSA crime stats Cleveland is pretty pedestrian crime-wise.

Census data is out. Cuyahoga County beat the 2019 estimate by about 30,000 but still experienced an overall decline from 2010. The current form of the data is hard to use, so I'll see if I can figure out Cleveland.

 

https://mtgis-portal.geo.census.gov/arcgis/apps/MapSeries/index.html?appid=2566121a73de463995ed2b2fd7ff6eb7

1 minute ago, thomasbw said:

Ouch.

7 minutes ago, thomasbw said:

As some were pointing out in the other threads, this can't be right, because Columbus added more than 100K according to the presentation

I am still very positive about all the investment happening in the CLE, including the East side, but damn...when are we going to turn the corner? Seems like so much new housing is being built. I just find it hard to believe that we are losing more households than are being built right now.

3 minutes ago, YO to the CLE said:

I am still very positive about all the investment happening in the CLE, including the East side, but damn...when are we going to turn the corner? Seems like so much new housing is being built. I just find it hard to believe that we are losing more households than are being built right now.

 

We've got to assume a whole bunch of losses happened around 2010-2013 with the foreclosure crisis and recession and all of that, before the "renaissance" really started to pick up major steam in 2014-2015. 

I think it's huge that the Cleveland metro is no longer shrinking. The city will take another cycle, but I'm glad the region is stable.

The Cleveland number above is correct by the way. So here are some Cuyahoga County city numbers:

 

Cleveland: 372,624 (Ouch)

Parma: 81,146

Lakewood: 50,942

Euclid: 49,692

Strongsville: 46,491

Cleveland Heights: 45,312

Westlake: 34,228

North Royalton: 31,322

Shaker Heights: 29,439

South Euclid 21,883

University Heights 13,914

East Cleveland: 13,792

Warrensville Heights 13,789

 

Clearly the suburbs are doing better than Cleveland still. It is refreshing to see some of the inner ring suburbs doing well, in particular Shaker which actually gained population since 2010.

Edited August 12, 20213 yr by LlamaLawyer

4 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

The Cleveland number above is correct by the way. So here are some Cuyahoga County city numbers:

 

Cleveland: 372,624 (Ouch)

Parma: 81,146

Lakewood: 50,942

Euclid: 49,692

Strongsville: 46,491

Cleveland Heights: 45,312

Westlake: 34,228

North Royalton: 31,322

Shaker Heights: 29,439

South Euclid 21,883

University Heights 13,914

East Cleveland: 13,792

Warrensville Heights 13,789

 

Clearly the suburbs are doing better than Cleveland still. It is refreshing to see some of the inner ring suburbs doing well, in particular Shaker which actually gained population since 2010.

Euclid is up too from 2010. 

Also, as was pointed out in another thread, the Cleveland metro gained population (Yay!). It was projected to have lost about 25K but instead gained 11K.

40 minutes ago, YO to the CLE said:

I am still very positive about all the investment happening in the CLE, including the East side, but damn...when are we going to turn the corner? Seems like so much new housing is being built. I just find it hard to believe that we are losing more households than are being built right now.

Jobs, jobs, jobs.  Though the metro grew by a small amount, I was actually expecting another loss for city, county, and metro.  

 

The metro is finally on the right track when it comes to the economy.  If you want to pinpoint when the region turned the corner, it would have been after the 2006-2008 recession.  Up until then, the largest sector of our economy was manufacturing.  Eds and meds didn't pull ahead until after the recession as the largest sector.  The population shift hasn't come yet on paper- but should be bright and clear during the 2030 census.

 

Our manufacturing sector is at around 11% of the regional economy.  That's in line with many other metros.  The eds and meds sector is well over 20% of the economy now.

 

We will see growth; the small regional growth we had this census was a win.  And with the housing market (demand) being the way that it is, it may not take that long for us to see a larger change here when it comes to population.  

Edited August 12, 20213 yr by Oldmanladyluck

7 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

Also, as was pointed out in another thread, the Cleveland metro gained population (Yay!). It was projected to have lost about 25K but instead gained 11K.

This is huge!  That is a 36k difference.  Also, there is something psychological about saying that our metro is growing rather than shrinking (no matter how slight).

 

The eye test will show you that the city of Cleveland is undergoing a transformation.  The amount of development is outstanding.  It will just take time for it to spill over into the majority of the neighborhoods and we are already seeing the start (see Glenville).  The tax base is up and there are lots of people who want to live in Cleveland who never did before.   We just have to be patient.  

 

Overall, I am encouraged by the data!

23 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

The Cleveland number above is correct by the way. So here are some Cuyahoga County city numbers:

 

Cleveland: 372,624 (Ouch)

Parma: 81,146

Lakewood: 50,942

Euclid: 49,692

Strongsville: 46,491

Cleveland Heights: 45,312

Westlake: 34,228

North Royalton: 31,322

Shaker Heights: 29,439

South Euclid 21,883

University Heights 13,914

East Cleveland: 13,792

Warrensville Heights 13,789

 

Clearly the suburbs are doing better than Cleveland still. It is refreshing to see some of the inner ring suburbs doing well, in particular Shaker which actually gained population since 2010.

From the list- Euclid, South Euclid, Lakewood, Parma, Strongsville, Westlake, Shaker, Warrensville, and University Heights gained over the 2019 estimates.   

 

Cleveland, North Royalton and East Cleveland didn't.  East Cleveland's decline has been dramatic.  

^^I’d also add the county government change.   It might not seem like a big deal but taking away a layer of constant governmental graft and shenanigans is pretty big. 

I hate that it’s another decline, but it’s a slight decline. If things keep going in a positive direction, I expect us to go up soon

I don't think the Cleveland decline is that big of a deal, especially since the county stayed relatively stable. I think it's certain this was the last decline for both, so the good news is we finally bottomed out. 

 

A poster above mentioned something I think that is correct. Cleveland proper had a very rough time from 2010-2013ish. I would bet a lot of money that we we're well below 376,000 in 2013. The city was still bleeding from the foreclosure crisis and no new development was offsetting it at all. The growth really started around 2018 IMHO. I'm confident it'll be a great decade for the city of Cleveland. 

 

I still think more people are living in Lakewood than what is reported. I know a handful of people who are living in Lakewood but still have their address at home in other cities/counties. I think that's more common than we think, especially in the 21-25 range. 

 

 

The 3 census tracts that make up the area downtown bounded by the river on the west, the innerbelt on the east, and the industrial valley on the south appear to have a population of 13,338. Is that all of downtown? If so, it suggests the 20,000 population estimate is way off, which would be very disappointing...

2 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

The 3 census tracts that make up the area downtown bounded by the river on the west, the innerbelt on the east, and the industrial valley on the south appear to have a population of 13,338. Is that all of downtown? If so, it suggests the 20,000 population estimate is way off, which would be very disappointing...

I mentioned this about Lakewood and I think it's also true of downtown. Many people are living downtown with official address' in other cities or even counties. This is especially prevalent among the younger age groups (under 25s) who use their home address instead of changing it. I remember doing that when I was at Ohio U. I wanted to vote in Cleveland, not Athens, so I never changed my address. 

1 minute ago, american_amadan said:

I mentioned this about Lakewood and I think it's also true of downtown. Many people are living downtown with official address' in other cities or even counties. This is especially prevalent among the younger age groups (under 25s) who use their home address instead of changing it. I remember doing that when I was at Ohio U. I wanted to vote in Cleveland, not Athens, so I never changed my address. 

 

Does that actually impact how the census calculates a local population though? I don't think it does.

1 hour ago, LlamaLawyer said:

Census data is out. Cuyahoga County beat the 2019 estimate by about 30,000 but still experienced an overall decline from 2010. The current form of the data is hard to use, so I'll see if I can figure out Cleveland.

 

https://mtgis-portal.geo.census.gov/arcgis/apps/MapSeries/index.html?appid=2566121a73de463995ed2b2fd7ff6eb7

 

As it gets more granular, I'm planning on putting together a public application for the county/munis/blocks/etc. - I'll share the link when we get to that point...

Edited August 12, 20213 yr by GISguy
added more granularity lol

2 minutes ago, cbussoccer said:

 

Does that actually impact how the census calculates a local population though? I don't think it does.

It does. If you split your time between two residences, the one you report on the online census form is where you live as far as the Census Bureau is concerned. They don't really have a way of challenging what you say.

Just now, GISguy said:

 

As it gets more granular, I'm planning on putting together a public application for the county/muni's - I'll share the link when we get to that point...

I went through the estimates from 2019. My bug takeaway is the city increased significantly in white population and decreased significantly in black population. From 33/40 percent and 53/48 percent respectively. 

2 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

I went through the estimates from 2019. My bug takeaway is the city increased significantly in white population and decreased significantly in black population. From 33/40 percent and 53/48 percent respectively. 

There's a caveat with that though. The non-Hispanic white population didn't grow that much between 2010-2020, the Hispanic White population did. In the 2019 survey we we're 40% white but 33.8% were non-Hispanic whites. The Hispanic population (especially Puerto Ricans) has boomed in Cleveland over the last 20 years. 

5 minutes ago, american_amadan said:

There's a caveat with that though. The non-Hispanic white population didn't grow that much between 2010-2020, the Hispanic White population did. In the 2019 survey we we're 40% white but 33.8% were non-Hispanic whites. The Hispanic population (especially Puerto Ricans) has boomed in Cleveland over the last 20 years. 

The County-level data for this is available in a convenient viewer.

 

https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/interactive/race-and-ethnicity-in-the-united-state-2010-and-2020-census.html?linkId=100000060666476

 

At the Cuyahoga County level, asian population and hispanic population increased dramatically, with black population essentially constant and white population posting a modest decline. I suspect that the black population of Cleveland proper did decline dramatically and most of those leaving ended up in suburbs.

3 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

The County-level data for this is available in a convenient viewer.

 

https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/interactive/race-and-ethnicity-in-the-united-state-2010-and-2020-census.html?linkId=100000060666476

 

At the Cuyahoga County level, asian population and hispanic population increased dramatically, with black population essentially constant and white population posting a modest decline. I suspect that the black population of Cleveland proper did decline dramatically and most of those leaving ended up in suburbs.

Thank you for the county view. With all the news coming out about the Census it's been a pain to find actual stats from the Census itself. 

 

From the eye test it seems that a lot of professional whites are moving into Cleveland while a lot of the working class whites that are left are heading to the inner ring suburbs. It's no secret that a safe neighborhood in Cleveland proper is no longer affordable to everyone. A lot of working class whites have left to Parma (which surprisingly saw growth). I think the story is similar with the black population and Euclid. If Euclid really did grow over the last 10 years I'm surprised, but not shocked. Euclid has become a hotbed for the black population that has the means to get out of the rougher Cleveland neighborhoods but don't want/can't move out of the area altogether. I've also noticed a trend of professional blacks, especially their children, moving to the South (Atlanta, Charlotte, etc). While that's not backed by any scientific method or statistics, it begins to explain how the county is losing some of it's black population. 

 

Overall though I don't think this Census is bad news, considering how brutal 2010 was for the entire region. We seem to have finally bottomed out (outside of East Cleveland, which may go below 10,000 soon). 

What is the link for the local numbers?

There's no decennial comparison tool, but you can get tract level data maps using the density or %>18 layers here: https://mtgis-portal.geo.census.gov/arcgis/apps/MapSeries/index.html?appid=2566121a73de463995ed2b2fd7ff6eb7 

Edited August 12, 20213 yr by grayfields

39 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

It does. If you split your time between two residences, the one you report on the online census form is where you live as far as the Census Bureau is concerned. They don't really have a way of challenging what you say.

 

I'm assuming american_amadan is referring to the location at which he or she is registered to vote when using the term "official address". American_amadan did not change his or her voter registration while temporarily living in Athens for school and suggested that would lead to an undercount in Athens. I'm saying that's not true. Responding to the census questionnaire that gets sent to your apartment in Athens and saying that you do, in fact, live in that apartment for "most of the year" will not negate your voter registration in Cleveland. The notion that something like this is leading to a material undercounting of residents in a downtown area is extremely far-fetched.

48 minutes ago, american_amadan said:

There's a caveat with that though. The non-Hispanic white population didn't grow that much between 2010-2020, the Hispanic White population did. In the 2019 survey we we're 40% white but 33.8% were non-Hispanic whites. The Hispanic population (especially Puerto Ricans) has boomed in Cleveland over the last 20 years. 

There's 154,000 that identify as white in Cleveland. Only 24k of those identify as Hispanic. The other 130k identify as white. Yes the Hispanic population increases but so did the white non Hispanic. 33 to 40 is a significant change. 

8 minutes ago, grayfields said:

There's no decennial comparison tool, but you can get tract level data maps using the density or %>18 layers here: https://mtgis-portal.geo.census.gov/arcgis/apps/MapSeries/index.html?appid=2566121a73de463995ed2b2fd7ff6eb7 

 

I feel like a data monkey right now, but I might be able to throw something together locally speaking from this- was able to dive back into the data based on this link. Stay tuned 👀

4 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

There's 154,000 that identify as white in Cleveland. Only 24k of those identify as Hispanic. The other 130k identify as white. Yes the Hispanic population increases but so did the white non Hispanic. 33 to 40 is a significant change. 

To add onto this. The black population went from 210k, to 188k. It appears every other population grew slightly in the city. 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but Cleveland’s GDP is #1 in the state, Downtown Cleveland is the #1 job hub in the state and University Circle (along with Fairfax) is #4.  
 

Even though it didn’t feel like Cleveland was truly recovering from the Great Recession until 2015, how is it the city continues to lose population at this rate?  

4 minutes ago, Sapper Daddy said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but Cleveland’s GDP is #1 in the state, Downtown Cleveland is the #1 job hub in the state and University Circle (along with Fairfax) is #4.  
 

Even though it didn’t feel like Cleveland was truly recovering from the Great Recession until 2015, how is it the city continues to lose population at this rate?  

Probably because the population loss is in neighborhoods like Hough, Central, Kinsman, and Mt. Pleasant. When we get more data breakdown, I expect it to show most (or all) of the Cleveland population loss was a loss of black population. Most of those individuals in turn probably moved to suburbs. Those neighborhoods likely contribute very little to the regional GDP. They're also not very visible because they're not the kinds of neighborhoods people who aren't from there visit. So it becomes easy to not realize the population loss in those neighborhoods is happening at all. 

 

This is just a guess, but it makes a lot of sense.

5 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

Probably because the population loss is in neighborhoods like Hough, Central, Kinsman, and Mt. Pleasant. When we get more data breakdown, I expect it to show most (or all) of the Cleveland population loss was a loss of black population. Most of those individuals in turn probably moved to suburbs. Those neighborhoods likely contribute very little to the regional GDP. They're also not very visible because they're not the kinds of neighborhoods people who aren't from there visit. So it becomes easy to not realize the population loss in those neighborhoods is happening at all. 

 

This is just a guess, but it makes a lot of sense.

Yeah that does make some sense, I’d be curious to see more detailed data.  It would seem that 5-6 neighborhoods are booming,  at least anecdotally, with a handful of others that are quite stable.

 

I hope that Cleveland’s future mayor is up to the task of growing those neighborhoods in decline.