20 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

Probably because the population loss is in neighborhoods like Hough, Central, Kinsman, and Mt. Pleasant. When we get more data breakdown, I expect it to show most (or all) of the Cleveland population loss was a loss of black population. Most of those individuals in turn probably moved to suburbs. Those neighborhoods likely contribute very little to the regional GDP. They're also not very visible because they're not the kinds of neighborhoods people who aren't from there visit. So it becomes easy to not realize the population loss in those neighborhoods is happening at all. 

 

This is just a guess, but it makes a lot of sense.

 

 

Yep, and a lot of it is due to de facto bank redlining since banks still typically won't loan in those neighborhoods, at least to the extent they will in the nearby inner-ring suburbs.

Edited August 12, 20213 yr by mu2010

1 hour ago, KFM44107 said:

To add onto this. The black population went from 210k, to 188k. It appears every other population grew slightly in the city. 

Where are you seeing these demographic numbers? I’d like to pull them up

21 minutes ago, mu2010 said:

 

 

Yep, and a lot of it is due to de facto bank redlining since banks still typically won't loan in those neighborhoods, at least to the extent they will in the nearby inner-ring suburbs.

And there still isn’t much you can do about that. In order to fix these neighborhoods the city is going to have to deliberately target them with a large amount of resources to stop the bleeding, and then the private sector will follow. The amount of money needed may give people some heartburn, but you’re gonna have to do it to get back to growth and not decline

For an better visualization, here is a map of County municipality (for pop. >5000) population change from 2010 to 2020 I quickly threw together:

 

3 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

And there still isn’t much you can do about that. In order to fix these neighborhoods the city is going to have to deliberately target them with a large amount of resources to stop the bleeding, and then the private sector will follow. The amount of money needed may give people some heartburn, but you’re gonna have to do it to get back to growth and not decline

 

That is what they are trying to do with the Mayor's Transformation Initiative - one program of Frank Jackson's that seems to be going well and hopefully will continue in some form with the new administration.

 

Further I agree with the idea of only targeting it in certain neighborhoods (Glenville, Clark-Fulton, and Buckeye currently) because you can have more of an impact that way - obviously a harder sell politically though.

Edited August 12, 20213 yr by mu2010

8 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

And there still isn’t much you can do about that. In order to fix these neighborhoods the city is going to have to deliberately target them with a large amount of resources to stop the bleeding, and then the private sector will follow. The amount of money needed may give people some heartburn, but you’re gonna have to do it to get back to growth and not decline

 

The County is also surging resources into the Central Neighborhood, or at least planning on doing it. So there's that too.

18 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

Where are you seeing these demographic numbers? I’d like to pull them up

Not going to lie. I had to use three different census websites. I googled 2020 census demographics and then googled 2010 census demographics for Cleveland and had to write all this down on a notepad. The 2020 is still the 2019 estimates but I don't think those numbers are going to be far off from the truth as far as demographics are concerned. All three sites were official census.gov sites. It's impossible to navigate from their home page and easier to just Google. 

Edited August 12, 20213 yr by KFM44107

2 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said:

The 3 census tracts that make up the area downtown bounded by the river on the west, the innerbelt on the east, and the industrial valley on the south appear to have a population of 13,338. Is that all of downtown? If so, it suggests the 20,000 population estimate is way off, which would be very disappointing...

Those three tracts compared to their 2010 populations. See here for the map of the tracts being used.

Have we been too optimistic or is the census data wrong by that much? I wonder if Cleveland is going to challenge the census results.

3 minutes ago, tykaps said:

Those three tracts compared to their 2010 populations. See here for the map of the tracts being used.

Have we been too optimistic or is the census data wrong by that much? I wonder if Cleveland is going to challenge the census results.

 

Hasn't Downtown Cleveland Alliance been producing those estimates? I would think they have to be somewhat accurate. Got to imagine they had relationships with the large apartment building owners and perhaps some access to their data in order to produce the estimates. Property owners would have every incentive to participate since they all have a vested interest in the growth of downtown.

Edited August 12, 20213 yr by mu2010

29 minutes ago, NorthShore647 said:

For an better visualization, here is a map of County municipality (for pop. >5000) population change from 2010 to 2020 I quickly threw together:

 

Here is a county population change map for all municipalities:

29 minutes ago, tykaps said:

Those three tracts compared to their 2010 populations. See here for the map of the tracts being used.

Have we been too optimistic or is the census data wrong by that much? I wonder if Cleveland is going to challenge the census results.

According to Wikipedia, the 2010 population of downtown was over 11,000, so that must mean some other tract is included in downtown. What’s missing is probably some of the west bank of the flats. That could easily add a few thousand and put the population near 20,000. I’m curious if someone has definite info.

With that much decline in E. Cleveland, what does that put its tally to?

2 hours ago, KFM44107 said:

To add onto this. The black population went from 210k, to 188k. It appears every other population grew slightly in the city. 

 

What is the average household size and income of the people who are leaving Cleveland and what is the household size and income for the people moving to Cleveland? Is there a way to learn these numbers? 

1 hour ago, KFM44107 said:

Not going to lie. I had to use three different census websites. I googled 2020 census demographics and then googled 2010 census demographics for Cleveland and had to write all this down on a notepad. The 2020 is still the 2019 estimates but I don't think those numbers are going to be far off from the truth as far as demographics are concerned. All three sites were official census.gov sites. It's impossible to navigate from their home page and easier to just Google. 

Cleveland.com updated their article with demographic numbers:

 

”Also noteworthy are Cleveland’s demographic shifts over the last decade. White people now comprise 40% of the population, compared to 37% in 2010. Black people now comprise 49% of the population, compared to 53% a decade ago. Those identifying as two or more races held steady at about 4%. The Hispanic population also increased – today, 12% of Clevelanders identify as Hispanic, up from 10% in 2010.”

2 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

What is the average household size and income of the people who are leaving Cleveland and what is the household size and income for the people moving to Cleveland? Is there a way to learn these numbers? 

Household size I believe can be found by dividing population by number of occupied housing units, both of which should be available on the county level data viewer. Income data is tracked through the ACS, not the census.

2 hours ago, NorthShore647 said:

 

Here is a county population change map for all municipalities:

 

Really surprised to see both Rocky River and Shaker Heights up by pretty decent amounts, with being older inner ring suburbs with not much open land left to expand. 

Edited August 13, 20213 yr by MuRrAy HiLL

4 hours ago, KFM44107 said:

To add onto this. The black population went from 210k, to 188k. It appears every other population grew slightly in the city. 

 

Columbus' Black population grew from 229K to 259K.  Math checks out...!

Edited August 13, 20213 yr by MuRrAy HiLL

As promised, it's not perfect but here's an application showing Cuyahoga County Population by Census Tract - 2020 to 2010 and 2020 to 2000. 

 

https://cuyahoga.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=6b2e8f72c8124f9a8ad3239b9c8c45dd

 

I'm basing this off of the data that was released today and a join to the older data on the backend, so it's not perfect but it should give a general idea of what's going on. Once Census releases their full gamut of data in September I'll be a lot more confident in the overall data.

Edited August 13, 20213 yr by GISguy

3 hours ago, GISguy said:

 

The County is also surging resources into the Central Neighborhood, or at least planning on doing it. So there's that too.

What I would do with the Central neighborhood is desperately try to transform it into a neighborhood that appeals to young black professionals that work downtown or go to school at CSU. I'm not trying to promote segregation, but the reality is that the big money investments aren't coming to that neighborhood anytime soon unless a there's a footprint of wealth in the area. There's polar opposites happening in Cleveland and across this country, wealthy white professionals are moving back into cities, wealthy black professionals are heading to the suburbs. Both have valid reasons why. 

 

If the city/county could somehow turn it into a place where the wealthier black families would live it would have a great effect on the rest of the neighborhood. I can't even begin to count how many successful black families I know that came from Central and west of East 55th. But there seems to be no incentive for them to go back and live there. The county knows this but it will be hard to get the ball rolling. 

 

I think it does a huge disservice to the cultural history of our city if the near east side turns into just another Ohio City. Ohio City is fine, but we don't need flannels and microbreweries everywhere. 

1 hour ago, MuRrAy HiLL said:

 

Really surprised to see both Rocky River and Shaker Heights up by pretty decent amounts, with being older inner ring suburbs with not much open land left to expand. 

I think River benefitted from a lot from families with 3-4 kids moving into the city because schools in their former cities got worse or they could no longer afford the private schools in the area. So unlike Lakewood, which really just has the problem of household size shrinking everywhere in the US, the household size in River probably grew. 

Edited August 13, 20213 yr by american_amadan

32 minutes ago, GISguy said:

As promised, it's not perfect but here's an application showing Cuyahoga County Population by Census Tract - 2020 to 2010 and 2020 to 2000. 

 

https://cuyahoga.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=6b2e8f72c8124f9a8ad3239b9c8c45dd

 

I'm basing this off of the data that was released today and a join to the older data on the backend, so it's not perfect but it should give a general idea of what's going on. Once Census releases their full gamut of data in September I'll be a lot more confident in the overall data.

Great work. As I suspected, this shows big losses in lower income neighborhoods. 

 

EDIT: And in an encouraging sign, most of the fastest growing tracts are in the urban core. The suburbs have some modest growth in places, but the main dynamic areas are clearly downtown and neighboring areas.

Edited August 13, 20213 yr by LlamaLawyer

Thank you GISguy!  My big takeaway is that the westside looks like it is probably growing overall again, while the eastside is obviously hurting badly outside a couple neighborhoods. 

 

We've got to find a way to get the eastside moving in the right direction!

3 minutes ago, X said:

Thank you GISguy!  My big takeaway is that the westside looks like it is probably growing overall again, while the eastside is obviously hurting badly outside a couple neighborhoods. 

 

We've got to find a way to get the eastside moving in the right direction!

Let's reach out to Bo Knez and say "I know you're already working at 11, but do you think you could turn it up to 13?"

4 hours ago, KJP said:

 

What is the average household size and income of the people who are leaving Cleveland and what is the household size and income for the people moving to Cleveland? Is there a way to learn these numbers? 

 

Exactly. I think we'll need CPS ASEC data to know the relative strength of these conditions to fire up developer's gravity models, which will occur next month: https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/key-dates.html

2 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said:

Let's reach out to Bo Knez and say "I know you're already working at 11, but do you think you could turn it up to 13?"

Turn it up to 23, not 13 lol

So even if the annexation of East Cleveland had happened, Cleveland still would have lost population.  Wow.

12 hours ago, X said:

Thank you GISguy!  My big takeaway is that the westside looks like it is probably growing overall again, while the eastside is obviously hurting badly outside a couple neighborhoods. 

 

We've got to find a way to get the eastside moving in the right direction!

 

Hopefully the Metropark's investment on the eastside lakefront/Gordon Park helps. I know getting rid of I90 along the lakefront and through downtown is unrealistic, but figuring out how to bridge 90 to better connect those neighborhoods to the lake and downtown is a must. 

 

Someone else pointed out that the business district is the #1 employment center in the state and UC is #4. Odds are one person in a house hold works at one or the other (if not split between the 2), so there's no reason those near-eastside neighborhoods shouldn't be thriving. 

2 hours ago, Luke_S said:

I know getting rid of I90 along the lakefront and through downtown is unrealistic

 

If you mean the idea of moving I-90 south of Gordon Park in order to open up land for "Edgewater East", I'm actually optimistic about that in the long run, i think it'll happen.

 

The city can only handle one or two megaprojects each couple of decades. Right now opportunity corridor and Irishtown bend. With the former using lots of state ODOT $$$. 

 

After those are done, it's only a matter of what we want to spend a ton of money on next, what to put in our sights.

 

That project is such a no-brainer, and parks are just about the most popular political investment you can make. It's definitely on the radar of local planners and such.

 

I think it'll happen.

Edited August 13, 20213 yr by mu2010

2 minutes ago, mu2010 said:

 

If you mean the idea of moving I-90 south of Gordon Park in order to open up land for "Edgewater East", I'm actually optimistic about that in the long run, i think it'll happen.

 

I'm derailing this discussion, so I'm sorry. I would at least like that, but no, my dream would be for something much more drastic; like routing I90 onto I271 at Willoughby Hills to I480 over to I80/90 to open all that lakefront land and remove the barrier between Downtown and University Circle. Like I said, unrealistic. 

Lots of good info in this article:

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2021/08/cuyahoga-county-cities-are-growing-increasingly-diverse-census-2020-shows.html

With the Census results in, the subject matter of this May 2020 ABJ article will be revisited by the OMB here and nationwide:

 

"A regional planning group centered in Cuyahoga County is lobbying the federal government to move Akron and Canton into Greater Cleveland.

Meanwhile, Akron and Canton are looking to come together without Cleveland."

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.beaconjournal.com/news/20200519/planning-group-wants-akron-and-canton-considered-part-of-greater-cleveland%3ftemplate=ampart

https://medina-gazette.com/news/271272/us-census-county-population-grows-by-59-percent-wadsworth-goes-up-11-percent/

 

The end of this article really puts into perspective what Cleveland proper and frankly the region in general is dealing with in terms of sprawl, poaching and uncooperation of the region. The article basically boasts how great Medina county is and at the end describes Cleveland as "bleeding" population, which if you look at the trend from 1950 is far from the truth. It's like they are actively trying to verify newcomers to Medina County as making the right choice and advertising those in Cleveland and Cuyahoga County to get out while you can. 

It's pretty evident to all of us how the sprawl mentality dominates NEO, and this article is another example. I honestly find it almost impossible for Cleveland to actually experience growth in my lifetime when the suburbs, and more specifically the exurbs, dominate regional policy here. People here are basically conditioned to the mentality that you need a Mcmansion home in a development off the highway 30 minutes from the urban center to have a good life here, and I hardly see that ever changing.

32 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

https://medina-gazette.com/news/271272/us-census-county-population-grows-by-59-percent-wadsworth-goes-up-11-percent/

 

The end of this article really puts into perspective what Cleveland proper and frankly the region in general is dealing with in terms of sprawl, poaching and uncooperation of the region. The article basically boasts how great Medina county is and at the end describes Cleveland as "bleeding" population, which if you look at the trend from 1950 is far from the truth. It's like they are actively trying to verify newcomers to Medina County as making the right choice and advertising those in Cleveland and Cuyahoga County to get out while you can. 

It's pretty evident to all of us how the sprawl mentality dominates NEO, and this article is another example. I honestly find it almost impossible for Cleveland to actually experience growth in my lifetime when the suburbs, and more specifically the exurbs, dominate regional policy here. People here are basically conditioned to the mentality that you need a Mcmansion home in a development off the highway 30 minutes from the urban center to have a good life here, and I hardly see that ever changing.

I would say there's a lot of people who think that way, but there's also a lot who don't. There was some relatively strong growth in the second ring burbs of Cuyahoga, that have relatively few modern Ryan/Pulte homes style subdivisions that you see out in Medina, Lorain and Lake Counties.

I love the mentality of our friends who moved way out from the core who used to live in the city and/or inner ring. They make comments like "you guys live all the way in Lakewood" ...Ummm no, you moved your ass way out to the middle of nowhere. It's the other way around, but they refuse to see it like that 🙄

2 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

https://medina-gazette.com/news/271272/us-census-county-population-grows-by-59-percent-wadsworth-goes-up-11-percent/

 

The end of this article really puts into perspective what Cleveland proper and frankly the region in general is dealing with in terms of sprawl, poaching and uncooperation of the region. The article basically boasts how great Medina county is and at the end describes Cleveland as "bleeding" population, which if you look at the trend from 1950 is far from the truth. It's like they are actively trying to verify newcomers to Medina County as making the right choice and advertising those in Cleveland and Cuyahoga County to get out while you can. 

It's pretty evident to all of us how the sprawl mentality dominates NEO, and this article is another example. I honestly find it almost impossible for Cleveland to actually experience growth in my lifetime when the suburbs, and more specifically the exurbs, dominate regional policy here. People here are basically conditioned to the mentality that you need a Mcmansion home in a development off the highway 30 minutes from the urban center to have a good life here, and I hardly see that ever changing.

 

I don't disagree overall, but don't kid yourself into thinking the mentality is a uniquely Cleveland thing.   Sprawl is a universality across America; the urban cores that thrive do so in spite of that.  Cleveland has the resources and inclination to do the same.  

What Cleveland really needs to see happen is the younger groups of people who have migrated to living in the city, staying, and having a couple kids to help increase the average home size.  If we continue to have 1 to 2 people in each household, I'm afraid were not going to be able to counter-act the de-population of especially the east side neighborhoods.  Visually, it appears that were growing based on some of the developments, but clearly that's not the case.   It's definatley the time to start catering to families in the gentrifying neighborhoods, and less to the hipsters.  We've definatley already captured them😂.  

44 minutes ago, brtshrcegr said:

 

I don't disagree overall, but don't kid yourself into thinking the mentality is a uniquely Cleveland thing.   Sprawl is a universality across America; the urban cores that thrive do so in spite of that.  Cleveland has the resources and inclination to do the same.  

Ya. I mean if you look at that census tract by census tract level it looks like the west side is doing just that. It's just that the East side which makes up a greater portion of the city is just losing people at a quicker rate. I'm intrigued to see how the explosion of east side development in the last two years will change that over a decade. 

Overall, I'd say I'm pleasantly surprised by the results. Yes, disappointing that CLE still decreased, but it was one of the smallest decreases in decades, and the rate is definitely slowing - less than 1% a year over the last decade, and I'm sure most of that was in the early part of the decade when the foreclosure crisis was the worst. As the pace of new construction picks up, it will slow further. I don't think it will reverse until we see more investment in the weaker east side neighborhoods though. Luckily, that is starting in places like Glenville, Hough, Fairfax. I hope we see more in the near future in the far SE side, as those neighborhoods are still at the tipping point and can definitely be saved before they become a full exodus. Crime is what is really holding them back at this point. 

 

The suburbs were overall a nice surprise. Loved to see the inner ring coming up. That Shaker increased by more than Solon just made my day! In looking at the tract data maps put together (much thanks, @GISguy ) most of the Shaker growth was in the area surrounding the Van Aken District (up 16%!), while the rest of the city showed a smaller increase or stayed flat. I'm also very happy at the results for South Euclid. While it may have been a decrease, it was the smallest in decades, only 412 people - essentially flat. Again, I'm certain most of that was in the early years of the decade, when we were hit hard with foreclosures and vacancy. The last few years have seen vacant properties just about disappear, and new build infill houses spring up all over. The diversity data does nothing but confirm what we have already known - that SE is a welcoming and progressive community. 

 

Metro numbers were also a nice surprise, with Cleveland MSA growing again. The 11k increase, while small, is pretty big considering the past trends and that the estimate was a loss. Cleveland had a full 40% of the "missing" 100k from Ohio. Akron MSA still shrinking surprised me though. I had expected that if one grew, the other would have as well. 

So even if the annexation of East Cleveland had happened, Cleveland still would have lost population.  Wow.

With the annexation of East Cleveland I'd imagine though that the bleeding wouldn't last long in that "neighborhood". It sits adjacent to University Circle which tried to expand in EC but didn't have luck in the circle east townhomes. I believe I read it's due to lackluster city services that they don't build there.

I'd imagine that a merger with Cleveland would have opened the flood gates for development and we'd see instant growth in that area. ESPECIALLY the Euclid and Superior Intersection which is absolutely ripe for TOD with nothing but empty lots and shopping centers right by the Superior rapid station.

Greed and Ego will never allow that to happen, especially since East Cleveland essentially sabotaged the merger talks and blamed it on "not wanting black leadership to be seen as a failure". The city is doomed, the state needs to figure out a way to step in.

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Can someone explain how the White Population grew from 37% to 40% and the Black population dropped from 53% to 49% but Cleveland.com is reporting a dip in both populations?

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48 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

Greed and Ego will never allow that to happen, especially since East Cleveland essentially sabotaged the merger talks and blamed it on "not wanting black leadership to be seen as a failure". The city is doomed, the state needs to figure out a way to step in.

Generally agree with most of your points. One note though - I do think the merger is still feasible. The Black leadership, specifically the former mayor, had made good progress on merger efforts before. It was the EC city council that completely undermined the efforts. 

 

Also completely agree that the state should try to influence this. Maybe rather than “force” it, perhaps provide some incentive? Maybe even outright offer cash - e.g. if you’re a resident when the city votes to merge, and when the merger happens, you get $500. Maybe even $1000 - that would still cost the state less than $10M. Merging EC government out of existence has to be more valuable than that.

 

Same offer for Linndale and Newburgh Heights. (And North Randall, Highland Hills, and Northfield to their larger neighbors while we’re at it.)

Generally agree with most of your points. One note though - I do think the merger is still feasible. The Black leadership, specifically the former mayor, had made good progress on merger efforts before. It was the EC city council that completely undermined the efforts. 
 
Also completely agree that the state should try to influence this. Maybe rather than “force” it, perhaps provide some incentive? Maybe even outright offer cash - e.g. if you’re a resident when the city votes to merge, and when the merger happens, you get $500. Maybe even $1000 - that would still cost the state less than $10M. Merging EC government out of existence has to be more valuable than that.
 
Same offer for Linndale and Newburgh Heights. (And North Randall, Highland Hills, and Northfield to their larger neighbors while we’re at it.)

Didn't the state offer $20 million for the merger? I may be mistaken

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1 hour ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Generally agree with most of your points. One note though - I do think the merger is still feasible. The Black leadership, specifically the former mayor, had made good progress on merger efforts before. It was the EC city council that completely undermined the efforts. 

 

Also completely agree that the state should try to influence this. Maybe rather than “force” it, perhaps provide some incentive? Maybe even outright offer cash - e.g. if you’re a resident when the city votes to merge, and when the merger happens, you get $500. Maybe even $1000 - that would still cost the state less than $10M. Merging EC government out of existence has to be more valuable than that.

 

Same offer for Linndale and Newburgh Heights. (And North Randall, Highland Hills, and Northfield to their larger neighbors while we’re at it.)

How much longer can East Cleveland continue to exist?  They cannot maintain their fire engines and ambulances.  They have had times where they cannot even put an fire engines on the road as they were all out-of-service due to mechanical issues.  They have received multiple "hand me down" ambulances (2 from Euclid, 1 from Mayfield Heights, 1 from Mentor and maybe more from other cities).  Even then, they could not keep them running for long.  Not too long ago, it was reported their service garage had portions completely unusable.  The area has seen a string of mild winters with below normal snowfall.  Will the city be even able to keep the streets passable if snowfall swings above average?  How long can the city survive on gifts of 2nd-hand equipment?  How can the "leaders" of East Cleveland justify their continued existence where they have repeated difficulty in providing basic fire and ambulance services?  Is their instance in being their own municipality worth the endangerment of their citizens?

40 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

Didn't the state offer $20 million for the merger? I may be mistaken

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 

Good call - I had missed that piece of the story. But it was for infrastructure. I’m proposing direct payments in order to convince residents to vote for it.  Probably both would be even better, and still a good deal for the state. 

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2016/03/state_would_pay_10_million_to.html

 

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- As East Cleveland and Cleveland officials mull merging the two cities, state lawmakers could sweeten the deal with $10 million to fix up the inner-ring suburb. The one-time appropriation would be available only if the two cities agree to merge and could only be used for infrastructure improvements such as roads, bridges and emergency equipment.

The idea is being pitched by Ohio Auditor Dave Yost for inclusion in the state capital budget bill or another off-year budget appropriation bill. Yost has warned East Cleveland's fiscal woes cannot be fixed without merging the city with another or filing for bankruptcy.

The proposal has yet to be incorporated into legislation but has local officials and state lawmakers talking about next steps.

1 hour ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Good call - I had missed that piece of the story. But it was for infrastructure. I’m proposing direct payments in order to convince residents to vote for it.  Probably both would be even better, and still a good deal for the state. 

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2016/03/state_would_pay_10_million_to.html

 

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- As East Cleveland and Cleveland officials mull merging the two cities, state lawmakers could sweeten the deal with $10 million to fix up the inner-ring suburb. The one-time appropriation would be available only if the two cities agree to merge and could only be used for infrastructure improvements such as roads, bridges and emergency equipment.

The idea is being pitched by Ohio Auditor Dave Yost for inclusion in the state capital budget bill or another off-year budget appropriation bill. Yost has warned East Cleveland's fiscal woes cannot be fixed without merging the city with another or filing for bankruptcy.

The proposal has yet to be incorporated into legislation but has local officials and state lawmakers talking about next steps.

Cleveland rejected the demand EC presented to accept the merger, plus $10 million is nowhere near enough money to take on EC, especially when Cleveland itself has neighborhoods of its own that look like EC to rejuvenate.

Chicago is also losing it's strong middle class black population. Would be interesting to study this more in depth, and what should have been done to retain that population in these older northern cities. Where are the black empty nesters going that bought homes in strong stable neighborhoods in the 60's, 70's and 80's on the east side? And how do you retain the best and brightest young ones that seem to move away to places like Atlanta. Did we just take that population for granted?

 

I feel like Mike White, despite his faults, was the last Mayor in Cleveland that actually cared about the East Side and keeping it stable. He claims he would be driven around those neighborhoods and send out city services to fix things he'd see broken or clean up trash. Not sure if that was true though.

1 hour ago, metrocity said:

Chicago is also losing it's strong middle class black population. Would be interesting to study this more in depth, and what should have been done to retain that population in these older northern cities. Where are the black empty nesters going that bought homes in strong stable neighborhoods in the 60's, 70's and 80's on the east side? And how do you retain the best and brightest young ones that seem to move away to places like Atlanta. Did we just take that population for granted?

 

I feel like Mike White, despite his faults, was the last Mayor in Cleveland that actually cared about the East Side and keeping it stable. He claims he would be driven around those neighborhoods and send out city services to fix things he'd see broken or clean up trash. Not sure if that was true though.

There’s so many issues here, and you touched on several of them in your post. I have been on a crusade on the pages of UO to anyone who will listen (and probably some that don’t want to listen) that the city HAS TO be more aggressive about getting the black middle class back into the city. You’re not going to reverse the decline if you don’t. And that also means that you’re gonna have to be ok with some neighborhoods having development patterns that people around here are uncomfortable with, like McMansions in Hough. If you’re black, and particularly if you’re originally from the city, you’re not moving back here to be on the same small plot of land you grew up in when you left. It’s not gonna happen. We know obviously that a lot of the white folks that have moved back to the city (or into the city for the first time) are looking for urbanity in many cases. For a lot of black people, especially middle class black people, it’s the opposite. You grew up in the deteriorating east side neighborhoods. Many of them want to move back into the city, but they are not going to come back to the same neighborhoods that they left. It has to be different, and the lifestyle has to be comparable to what they can get somewhere else. And people around here have to be ok with it. Cause it ain’t about you (I don’t mean you specially but the general “you”). We can’t grow the city without stopping the bleeding on the east side. And we can’t stop the bleeding on the east side without targeting at least some of those neighborhoods to go aggressively after the black middle class. And you can’t do that by trying to force them to live in the duplexes they grew up in as opposed to the houses they can have built in Bedford or Solon or Warrensville. 
 

I do believe that Mike White cared about the east side. The problem is that the approach at the time was ineffective. Everybody talks about giving more money to the east side, but what was happening back then is that the money was allocated by city hall but controlled by the councilmen. Which means it turned into a professional slush fund. There was no planning, no strategy, which is why if you drive through the east side today, there are pockets of newer development surrounded by dilapidation. There wasn’t a cohesive development strategy. Now, regardless of what anyone has to say about Mayor Jackson, he has a cohesive development strategy concerning the east side. It’s the Neighborhood Transformation Initiative and the Middle Neighborhoods Initiative. Those can work. It’s a really smart way to do it. The problem is that they came so late in his tenure. We already see the NTI being super effective on the edges of Glenville. With only being around for like 2 or 3 years. Now imagine what the east side would’ve looked like if the NTI would’ve started 6 or 7 years ago, vs 2 or 3. And the Middle Neighborhoods plan just started within the last 12 months. 

@inlovewithCLEThe East side does NOT have to be rebuilt with mcmansions to attract or retain the black middle class. Those homes built in Hough were more or less an experiment and remember they were built before the large scale interest in nee urban neighborhoods existed..

 

A lot of the black middle class that bought homes in thes 60s and 70s, stayed there and are now in their 80s, but starting to pass away. Some of the houses are still owned by the family, some were lost in the waves of foreclosures.

 

By the 1980s black middle class families had started purchasing in the burbs enmasse or moving out of town all together. The city wasn't an option.

 

To retain and attract the black middle class we need to continue what's been going on on the development front in Hough, Glenville, Fairfax and all the other city neighborhoods that have been growing.

 

The other major thing is the school's and crime. The crime issue I feel would be easier to solve because I feel like you could add community police patrols and have an increased police presence that would get rid of the sense of lawlessness that seems to exist when you are on Union and East 116th, or Lee and Harvard, or St. Clair Ave and Lakeview. 

 

No one wants to move to a neighborhood where they hear gunshots everyday.

 

You attract stable middle class residents and the dynamics of the neighborhoods begin to stabilize. I think at that point is when you may start to see schools change for the better and this goes for the west side and east side. You get enough middle class families that support their children's education to return to Cleveland Public Schools and you will see the school reports cards improve. At that point you have a neighborhood of choice for anyone, including black families.

Continuing to focus on the gentrifying neighborhoods, with the hope their growth spills into the depressed neighborhoods is also key.  Hopefully UC can bleed south of Cedar and north of Wade Park.  And Ohio City can stretch further west on Lorain, and continue south of Lorain.  Essentially how cities start in the first place.  From the core out.  

1 hour ago, Mov2Ohio said:

@inlovewithCLEThe East side does NOT have to be rebuilt with mcmansions to attract or retain the black middle class. Those homes built in Hough were more or less an experiment and remember they were built before the large scale interest in nee urban neighborhoods existed..

 

A lot of the black middle class that bought homes in thes 60s and 70s, stayed there and are now in their 80s, but starting to pass away. Some of the houses are still owned by the family, some were lost in the waves of foreclosures.

 

By the 1980s black middle class families had started purchasing in the burbs enmasse or moving out of town all together. The city wasn't an option.

 

To retain and attract the black middle class we need to continue what's been going on on the development front in Hough, Glenville, Fairfax and all the other city neighborhoods that have been growing.

 

The other major thing is the school's and crime. The crime issue I feel would be easier to solve because I feel like you could add community police patrols and have an increased police presence that would get rid of the sense of lawlessness that seems to exist when you are on Union and East 116th, or Lee and Harvard, or St. Clair Ave and Lakeview. 

 

No one wants to move to a neighborhood where they hear gunshots everyday.

 

You attract stable middle class residents and the dynamics of the neighborhoods begin to stabilize. I think at that point is when you may start to see schools change for the better and this goes for the west side and east side. You get enough middle class families that support their children's education to return to Cleveland Public Schools and you will see the school reports cards improve. At that point you have a neighborhood of choice for anyone, including black families.

As a black man, I’m not arguing with anybody about what black people want. Period. So most of what you said is just not going to l get a response from me because I’m not wasting my time.

 

BUT I do have to address this, as my family originally is from Hough. It wasn’t an “experiment”. It was a deliberate strategy to build those houses BECAUSE THATS WHAT THE PEOPLE WANTED. The (mostly black) occupants of those houses and the people in the neighborhood wanted those houses to be there because they viewed it as a way to restore Hough to its former glory before racial strife and before the riots that the neighborhood is still trying to rid itself of the stigma of.

 

But thank you. Thank you for proving my point, about everything I said about the attitude around here when it comes to building the houses that middle class black people want to live in