I find it mind boggling that Cleveland is still shrinking despite all the new residential units that have been added over the last couple decades.  How much longer before we actually see growth?  We have been hearing about it for at least 30 years, but it hasn't happened.  And what about all the NY and other out-of-state license plates that were being spotting here during the pandemic - did they all go back to their home states?
 

I believe the issue is still the east side is bleeding out. They are adding units and seeing more residential neighborhoods filled on the west side, not the East. The only area seeing substantial investment is University Circle and that isn't enough to offset loss.

Hough is starting to see investment with University Circle filling up and we'll see if that can continue and makes a difference in the next couple of years. Fairfax is getting SOME spill over development but the substantial development is happening all over on the west side and only in one place on the East.

Also we are swapping large families with Empty nesters and/or home of 1-3 so that has to balance itself out first as well.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

18 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Aren't household sizes changing everywhere?

Yeah but it explains why you have seen so much construction with population loss.  Actually, between the 2010 to 2020 the amount of occupied housing units in Cleveland proper even increased.  Our construction still is nowhere compared to most cities which is why other cities are experiencing the same trends with household sizes but are not losing population.

24 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

And what about all the NY and other out-of-state license plates that were being spotting here during the pandemic - did they all go back to their home states?

I remember when I read posters on this site say this during Covid. It was cringe worthy, I knew it was nonsense. This long term mass exodus from places like NY and LA to the mid-west that people was pushing in the media was never going to happen. In the end NYC and the giant cities of America are alive and in NYCs case more expensive than ever before. EVERY single one of my friends who went back home to Ohio during covid have returned to their pre covid city NYC, LA, Philly, DC etc. 

36 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Aren't household sizes changing everywhere?

Oh ya absolutely. I guess what I was trying to say is Cleveland specifically probably has a net positive of occupied housing units for the first time in a long time but because there's less people in units it haa not made a difference. 

Edited May 18, 20232 yr by KFM44107

Or idk maybe Cleveland's not as desirable as this forum tries to make it out to be. People move downtown or Ohio City for year, see how much screwed up the crime is here and end up moving to Lakewood or Cleveland Heights. No one wants to raise a kid in a city that almost guarantees you to be a victim of a violent crime. The school situation is a well known disaster already. Another fact is essentially any large corporation or job producer isn't even in the city proper anymore, everything is in the suburbs, if not an entirely different metro. 

My anecdotal example, my significant other almost had to basically pivot her entire career because it took her so long to find a job in Cleveland that fell in line with her career goals and field of expertise. If she was open to leaving the region, she would've found a job in a day in Columbus because of the job opportunities there for her field. 

26 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Or idk maybe Cleveland's not as desirable as this forum tries to make it out to be. People move downtown or Ohio City for year, see how much screwed up the crime is here and end up moving to Lakewood or Cleveland Heights. No one wants to raise a kid in a city that almost guarantees you to be a victim of a violent crime. The school situation is a well known disaster already. Another fact is essentially any large corporation or job producer isn't even in the city proper anymore, everything is in the suburbs, if not an entirely different metro. 

My anecdotal example, my significant other almost had to basically pivot her entire career because it took her so long to find a job in Cleveland that fell in line with her career goals and field of expertise. If she was open to leaving the region, she would've found a job in a day in Columbus because of the job opportunities there for her field. 

 

Lakewood and Cleveland Heights were also two of the biggest population losers in the state for 2022. It has nothing to do with crime or schools. It's just demographic changes and lack of in migration to the region. 

Or idk maybe Cleveland's not as desirable as this forum tries to make it out to be. People move downtown or Ohio City for year, see how much screwed up the crime is here and end up moving to Lakewood or Cleveland Heights. No one wants to raise a kid in a city that almost guarantees you to be a victim of a violent crime. The school situation is a well known disaster already. Another fact is essentially any large corporation or job producer isn't even in the city proper anymore, everything is in the suburbs, if not an entirely different metro. 
My anecdotal example, my significant other almost had to basically pivot her entire career because it took her so long to find a job in Cleveland that fell in line with her career goals and field of expertise. If she was open to leaving the region, she would've found a job in a day in Columbus because of the job opportunities there for her field. 

As someone who has rented in OHC for years and knows of many people that live here as well. I’d say crime was absurd during the pandemic. Post pandemic it hasn’t been much of a problem, although Tremont seems to be the true hot bed of crime. My building and other stay filled and generally stay full with the same folks. The amenities that this area offers is something the suburbs and pretty much any city with its population cannot complete with not to mention at a steep discount.

The folks that move to suburbs as I’ve found go to avon, avon lake, bay, shaker, Westlake, Brecksville, and Lakewood generally and they leave only because it’s cheaper to own something nice in those suburbs than it is within the city and they were done with paying rent, however every single one of them struggled to leave and knew they were walking away from something special.

But you’re right I’ll ultimately need to leave soon as well because I can’t reason sending my future kids to private school and certainly can’t fathom sending them to Cleveland city schools but I don’t think that’s much different than anywhere else.

As someone who left and came back, Cleveland does literary have so many amenities of big cities and so much history/wide array of cultures also found in big cities. I think it is as great as this forum makes it out to be, just others may fail to look around and realize how great it is but I always encourage the hate as I think that’s what keeps it affordable. Cleveland I do believe is a hidden gem that’s the butt of many jokes and I’ll take it

I find it mind boggling that Cleveland is still shrinking despite all the new residential units that have been added over the last couple decades.  How much longer before we actually see growth?  We have been hearing about it for at least 30 years, but it hasn't happened.  And what about all the NY and other out-of-state license plates that were being spotting here during the pandemic - did they all go back to their home states?
 

Still have a bunch of NJ, NY, MI, and Canadian plates at my apartment. Most of the NJ and NY folks are here for med school/residency a few of them that I’m friends with actually plan on staying here after residency but likely move to Cleveland heights or shaker

58 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Cleveland's not as desirable as this forum tries to make it out to be. People move downtown or Ohio City for year, see how much screwed up the crime is here and end up moving to Lakewood or Cleveland Heights. No one wants to raise a kid in a city that almost guarantees you to be a victim of a violent crime. The school situation is a well known disaster already. Another fact is essentially any large corporation or job producer isn't even in the city proper anymore, everything is in the suburbs, if not an entirely different metro.

 

My wife and I were raised in Cleveland, Lorain, Brunswick, North Ridgeville, Westlake, and Lakewood between the two of us throughout our childhoods, and while those places each have their charm, we made the decision to purchase a home in Cleveland. You can't say we haven't seen what the western suburbs have to offer, we've sampled them all, lol. I am now the fifth generation in my family to be a City of Cleveland homeowner, my father grew up in Jefferson, my grandfather in St. Clair, and the two generations before both near Mt. Pleasant. We bought our home in Old Brooklyn off of Broadview, a good sized house with decent acreage for the city proper. We have three children, who all attended Cleveland Public elementary schools, and various high schools in the city (Hay and 1 at a charter for accelerated pupils). Each of them have excelled, and my oldest is one of the highest scoring students in the state in the sciences -- the resources and staff in the Cleveland Public schools, along with guidance at home, have ensured their success. 

I work for the government, and my wife works for some little, insignificant, Cleveland headquartered corporation (this company is currently erecting some undocumented 600 foot building downtown, I'm sure no one here has heard of it.) There are five degrees, and four languages between the two of us. I only say this because you make it seem like we are the kind of people that would be scratching and clawing to get into a suburb far from the blight and terror of the inner-city. There is a problem with crime in Cleveland, and these problems need to be addressed, but the funny thing is that Lakewood and Cleveland Heights also have crime (Maybe we should criminalize crime?! Food for thought, guys). There are neighborhoods on the West Side and a great deal of East Side that need meaningful investment to encourage and ensure prosperous, safe, and growing communities; we all know this doesn't happen over night, but we're on a good trajectory right now.

Having said this, my wife goes running at night and we're proud to pay taxes here. But please, I'm begging, tell us more about how you saw a guy ask for bus money outside of Townhall one time or that you read a story from Fox 8 about a shooting (where they skillfully omit that the culprit was sent to prison). 

To keep life on track, I came here to report that there is a remarkably low number of for-sale, single family housing in Old Brooklyn right now. I was catching up with the realtor I purchased my house from, and he said that well-maintained and renovated homes in the neighborhood are selling faster than they have for the last twenty years. I've tried to keep an eye on owner-occupant vs. investor purchases, and it does appear that the majority of the housing stock is selling to occupant purchasers. It's really a good sign, and I'm glad younger families are moving back in again -- the amenities and access in the city proper are hard to beat.

Three doors down from us I noticed that a couple and their son had moved in, and of course being nosy, I introduced myself when the husband was walking their dog. The guy said they had moved from Seattle because he had been offered a position with a local law firm, and given the option between Cleveland and Chicago field offices, they picked Cleveland for the cost of living. He added that his wife's parents are looking at Rocky River and West Park, also moving from Washington state, so that the family can be together. That story is certainly a trend I'd like to see continue!

14 hours ago, 646empire said:

I remember when I read posters on this site say this during Covid. It was cringe worthy, I knew it was nonsense. This long term mass exodus from places like NY and LA to the mid-west that people was pushing in the media was never going to happen. In the end NYC and the giant cities of America are alive and in NYCs case more expensive than ever before. EVERY single one of my friends who went back home to Ohio during covid have returned to their pre covid city NYC, LA, Philly, DC etc. 

 

Still lots of out-of-state license plates everywhere here on the west side. True, that's anecdotal. But the hard data (see my article on Brain Gain) shows that people are leaving in greater numbers from the coasts and many of them are ending up here in Cleveland.

 

As for schools, I think there's some misunderstanding as to the educational options in the city. There are many more school opportunities in Cleveland now than ever. We live in the suburbs. Our son goes to a gifted school in Cleveland. We pay $100 in annual fees for him to go there. At the end of each school year, we get $600+ back from the Lakewood schools because we don't ask them to take our son to school in a school bus. Since my wife drives him to school on the way to work, we're actually coming out ahead financially.

13 hours ago, ELaunder said:

 

My wife and I were raised in Cleveland, Lorain, Brunswick, North Ridgeville, Westlake, and Lakewood between the two of us throughout our childhoods, and while those places each have their charm, we made the decision to purchase a home in Cleveland. You can't say we haven't seen what the western suburbs have to offer, we've sampled them all, lol. I am now the fifth generation in my family to be a City of Cleveland homeowner, my father grew up in Jefferson, my grandfather in St. Clair, and the two generations before both near Mt. Pleasant. We bought our home in Old Brooklyn off of Broadview, a good sized house with decent acreage for the city proper. We have three children, who all attended Cleveland Public elementary schools, and various high schools in the city (Hay and 1 at a charter for accelerated pupils). Each of them have excelled, and my oldest is one of the highest scoring students in the state in the sciences -- the resources and staff in the Cleveland Public schools, along with guidance at home, have ensured their success. 

I work for the government, and my wife works for some little, insignificant, Cleveland headquartered corporation (this company is currently erecting some undocumented 600 foot building downtown, I'm sure no one here has heard of it.) There are five degrees, and four languages between the two of us. I only say this because you make it seem like we are the kind of people that would be scratching and clawing to get into a suburb far from the blight and terror of the inner-city. There is a problem with crime in Cleveland, and these problems need to be addressed, but the funny thing is that Lakewood and Cleveland Heights also have crime (Maybe we should criminalize crime?! Food for thought, guys). There are neighborhoods on the West Side and a great deal of East Side that need meaningful investment to encourage and ensure prosperous, safe, and growing communities; we all know this doesn't happen over night, but we're on a good trajectory right now.

Having said this, my wife goes running at night and we're proud to pay taxes here. But please, I'm begging, tell us more about how you saw a guy ask for bus money outside of Townhall one time or that you read a story from Fox 8 about a shooting (where they skillfully omit that the culprit was sent to prison). 

I honestly think there’s a stigma with Cleveland public schools. Are the ones your kids went to highly rated I’m assuming? I think that’s one of the things holding my wife and I back from moving into the city as we want our son (and son on the way) to get a good education.

13 hours ago, ELaunder said:

To keep life on track, I came here to report that there is a remarkably low number of for-sale, single family housing in Old Brooklyn right now. I was catching up with the realtor I purchased my house from, and he said that well-maintained and renovated homes in the neighborhood are selling faster than they have for the last twenty years. I've tried to keep an eye on owner-occupant vs. investor purchases, and it does appear that the majority of the housing stock is selling to occupant purchasers. It's really a good sign, and I'm glad younger families are moving back in again -- the amenities and access in the city proper are hard to beat.

 

Three doors down from us I noticed that a couple and their son had moved in, and of course being nosy, I introduced myself when the husband was walking their dog. The guy said they had moved from Seattle because he had been offered a position with a local law firm, and given the option between Cleveland and Chicago field offices, they picked Cleveland for the cost of living. He added that his wife's parents are looking at Rocky River and West Park, also moving from Washington state, so that the family can be together. That story is certainly a trend I'd like to see continue!

 

West Park is the new hot place to live at my work.   We've had three new younger hires (from Texas, Michigan, and Columbus OH) and all three have bought houses in West Park within the past six months.   And I work in Lorain County!

Edited May 19, 20232 yr by MuRrAy HiLL

14 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Or idk maybe Cleveland's not as desirable as this forum tries to make it out to be. People move downtown or Ohio City for year, see how much screwed up the crime is here and end up moving to Lakewood or Cleveland Heights. No one wants to raise a kid in a city that almost guarantees you to be a victim of a violent crime. The school situation is a well known disaster already. Another fact is essentially any large corporation or job producer isn't even in the city proper anymore, everything is in the suburbs, if not an entirely different metro. 

My anecdotal example, my significant other almost had to basically pivot her entire career because it took her so long to find a job in Cleveland that fell in line with her career goals and field of expertise. If she was open to leaving the region, she would've found a job in a day in Columbus because of the job opportunities there for her field. 

 

As far as manufacturing jobs goes, that's everywhere, not just Cleveland.   Otherwise, there's fields that base here and some that don't.   C-bus has different foci, mostly insurance and government.

 

You've exaggerated the crime but not the school district.   

On 5/18/2023 at 9:34 AM, 646empire said:

I remember when I read posters on this site say this during Covid. It was cringe worthy, I knew it was nonsense. This long term mass exodus from places like NY and LA to the mid-west that people was pushing in the media was never going to happen. In the end NYC and the giant cities of America are alive and in NYCs case more expensive than ever before. EVERY single one of my friends who went back home to Ohio during covid have returned to their pre covid city NYC, LA, Philly, DC etc. 

I know a ton of people who did leave those big cities and are still elsewhere.

 

One thing I will say that frustrates me a bit about this region is the toxic relationship between Cleveland and the surburbs. Some suburbanites act like Cleveland is a horrible lost cause, while the "cheerleaders" of Cleveland seem detest suburbanites right back and at least online (though not here so much) basically tell them they aren't welcome. I understand that history and current events are fraught with injustice and is complicated, but it makes no sense to tear each other down when the bigger picture is we need to attract people to move here. 

 

Edited May 19, 20232 yr by coneflower
I wanted to add more thoughts without cluttering the thread with another post.

1 hour ago, JB said:

I honestly think there’s a stigma with Cleveland public schools. Are the ones your kids went to highly rated I’m assuming? I think that’s one of the things holding my wife and I back from moving into the city as we want our son (and son on the way) to get a good education.

All of my children went to William Cullen Bryant which, after touring four different public/charter elementary schools in the neighborhood, I determined was on-par with the school I attended in Lakewood. I have one child still there, and my older two are at a charter on the west side, and the other at John Hay. My wife and I have loved the experience with John Hay, it’s certainly the best public high school in Cleveland. When we bought our house, we were heavily leaning toward Lakewood because of the schools, and it was still affordable at that time. After meeting with school administrators in Old Brooklyn, we felt more comfortable with the school system and it entirely eliminated the stigma we associated with the public schools here. I know that’s what is holding a lot of people back, and the high schools in the city definitely need more work to ensure student success and safety. However, I’ve personally witnessed test scores and extracurricular activities receive renewed focus in recent years.

Cleveland’s biggest problem with attracting population/young families is the schools, but my experience is that when you work with the teachers, and stay engaged with administrators and events, there is very little separating students on an academic and opportunity basis from kids in Rocky River or Solon.

Speaking of CWRU (again mostly having a conversation with myself), the school has added like 200-300 students a year for the past 10+ years. 

 

How again does the census count college students in their numbers?  

 

Just for undergrad enrollment: 

 

2004-2005: 3,514 

2022-2023: 6,017  

 

Something like 80%-90% of undergrads live on campus. 

Edited May 19, 20232 yr by MuRrAy HiLL

via the nytimes — and whuddayaknow but it looks like cle is doing best for ohio for a change lol:

 

 

 

The New York Times notes how outflows of college graduates seems to be starting or accelerating in many wealthy metros, but the trend is mostly better in less expensive metros

Coastal Cities Priced Out Low-Wage Workers. Now College Graduates Are Leaving, Too.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...n=The Upshot

 

Net Migration of College Graduates, 2010-2021 (Wealthier metros bolded)

1,) Dallas +57K
2.) Houston +50K
3.) Denver +49K
4.) Phoenix +49K
5.) Boston +39K
6.) Austin +37K
7.) Seattle +32K
8.) Nashville +31K
9.) Charlotte +31K
10.) Tampa +31K
11.) Portland +26K
12.) Atlanta +24K
13.) Jacksonville +22K
14.) Las Vegas +20K
15.) Raleigh +20K
16.) Kansas City +13K
17.) Minneapolis +11K
18.) Riverside +11K
19.) Sacramento +11K
20.) Richmond +10K
21.) San Antonio +10K
22.) Indianapolis +6K
23.) San Diego +5K
24.) Orlando +4K
25.) Oklahoma City +2K
26.) St Louis +2K
27.) Birmingham +1K
28.) Washington, DC +1K
29.) Cleveland +1K
30.) Salt Lake City +1K
31.) Baltimore +1K
32.) Louisville No Change
33.) Miami No Change
34.) New Orleans No Change
35.) Virginia Beach No Change
36.) Honolulu -1K
37.) Grand Rapids -1K
38.) Cincinnati -1K
39.) Memphis -2K
40.) Columbus -3K
41.) Pittsburgh -4K
42.) San Francisco -4K
43.) Milwaukee -5K
44.) Buffalo -5K
45.) Detroit -6K
46.) Hartford -7K
47.) Rochester -7K
48.) Philadelphia -8K
49.) San Jose -19K
50.) Chicago -29K
51.) Providence -35K
52.) Los Angeles -41K
53.) New York City -160K

10 hours ago, mrnyc said:

via the nytimes — and whuddayaknow but it looks like cle is doing best for ohio for a change lol:

 

 

 

The New York Times notes how outflows of college graduates seems to be starting or accelerating in many wealthy metros, but the trend is mostly better in less expensive metros

Coastal Cities Priced Out Low-Wage Workers. Now College Graduates Are Leaving, Too.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...n=The Upshot

 

Net Migration of College Graduates, 2010-2021 (Wealthier metros bolded)

1,) Dallas +57K
2.) Houston +50K
3.) Denver +49K
4.) Phoenix +49K
5.) Boston +39K
6.) Austin +37K
7.) Seattle +32K
8.) Nashville +31K
9.) Charlotte +31K
10.) Tampa +31K
11.) Portland +26K
12.) Atlanta +24K
13.) Jacksonville +22K
14.) Las Vegas +20K
15.) Raleigh +20K
16.) Kansas City +13K
17.) Minneapolis +11K
18.) Riverside +11K
19.) Sacramento +11K
20.) Richmond +10K
21.) San Antonio +10K
22.) Indianapolis +6K
23.) San Diego +5K
24.) Orlando +4K
25.) Oklahoma City +2K
26.) St Louis +2K
27.) Birmingham +1K
28.) Washington, DC +1K
29.) Cleveland +1K
30.) Salt Lake City +1K
31.) Baltimore +1K
32.) Louisville No Change
33.) Miami No Change
34.) New Orleans No Change
35.) Virginia Beach No Change
36.) Honolulu -1K
37.) Grand Rapids -1K
38.) Cincinnati -1K
39.) Memphis -2K
40.) Columbus -3K
41.) Pittsburgh -4K
42.) San Francisco -4K
43.) Milwaukee -5K
44.) Buffalo -5K
45.) Detroit -6K
46.) Hartford -7K
47.) Rochester -7K
48.) Philadelphia -8K
49.) San Jose -19K
50.) Chicago -29K
51.) Providence -35K
52.) Los Angeles -41K
53.) New York City -160K

It says wealthier metros bolded but I don't see any bolded?

10 hours ago, mrnyc said:

via the nytimes — and whuddayaknow but it looks like cle is doing best for ohio for a change lol:

 

 

 

The New York Times notes how outflows of college graduates seems to be starting or accelerating in many wealthy metros, but the trend is mostly better in less expensive metros

Coastal Cities Priced Out Low-Wage Workers. Now College Graduates Are Leaving, Too.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...n=The Upshot

 

Net Migration of College Graduates, 2010-2021 (Wealthier metros bolded)
11.) Portland +26K
13.) Jacksonville +22K
16.) Kansas City +13K
20.) Richmond +10K
21.) San Antonio +10K
22.) Indianapolis +6K
25.) Oklahoma City +2K
27.) Birmingham +1K
28.) Washington, DC +1K
29.) Cleveland +1K
32.) Louisville No Change
33.) Miami No Change
34.) New Orleans No Change
35.) Virginia Beach No Change
38.) Cincinnati -1K
40.) Columbus -3K
41.) Pittsburgh -4K
43.) Milwaukee -5K
48.) Philadelphia -8K
 

So, I question some of the conclusions drawn from this data.  Some of the cities with a large net + migration could be attributed to the fact that they do not have a major university in their town to draw graduates and cities with larger out-migration could also be attributed to the fact that they have a major university and receive a large influx of students during the college and grad school years who will eventually move elsewhere.

 

My main example are cities like  - Indy, KC and Oklahoma city. For example Indy has Purdue and IU which are large drivers of employment in those cities but would not necessarily be located IN the city, rather they are 90 minutes away. Indy being the largest market as well as the main employment driver of the state is certainly going to grab the largest share of grads from those universities.  Same with Kansas City with KU and Mizzou around a hour away in each direction (especially KU). In OKC, we OU is about an hour outside of the OKC area. To me, the + influx of college grads is mainly attributed to that fact. 

 

On the flip side, Columbus, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh and Philly have out migration of students. All these cities have large research universities that are urban (in the case of Philly, they have numerous research universities). The students who want to stay in the area certainly have a home, but there are many other opportunities for students who are just drawn there to study and leave. Pulling people from all over the state and country because you offer nationally recognized programs will lead to people looking to leave the region when they graduate.  Point being Columbus, Cincinnati (are both growing) yet losing college grads. Could it be that the main employers in the area have the ability to fill their needs with local grads already and do not need to spend the resources to import them from other schools. Whereas, Cleveland, does not have a large amount of universities in the area and needs to potentially import more from other areas of the state and country?

https://www.businessinsider.com/where-people-are-moving-to-and-moving-from-usps-data-2023-5?amp

Interesting. Thanks for sharing that, @LlamaLawyer!

18 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said:

https://www.businessinsider.com/where-people-are-moving-to-and-moving-from-usps-data-2023-5?amp

 

One of these is not like the others.

no surprize and sounds like it could even be a good marketing tool — its better to buy than rent in these 4 cities, including the cleve:

 

 

In these 4 US cities, it’s cheaper to buy a home than to rent one

 

By Hannah Frishberg

June 1, 2023

 

 

Becoming a landlord is more affordable than paying a landlord in less than five of the nation’s most populous metros across the nation, a new analysis has found. 

 

Despite homeownership being a core part of the American dream, the reality remains that, in most of the country, paying rent is much more doable than paying a mortgage — except in these select cities. 

 

 

more:

https://nypost.com/2023/06/01/in-these-us-cities-its-cheaper-to-buy-a-home-than-to-rent/

Further confirmation of the Cleveland MSA's growth.  Bank of America says about 2.5% positive migration from Q1, 2020 to Q1, 2023.

 

https://business.bofa.com/en-us/content/bank-of-america-institute/economic-insights/housing-morsel-great-migration-continues.html?utm_source=Email_Institute&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Media_HousingMorsel_June_23&utm_content=060523_n_05_bank-of-america-institute/economic-insights/housing-morsel-great-migration-continues.html

The last paragraph made a very good point. Workforce issues could easily be solved if we were more efficient with getting immigrants trained and placed into the workforce.

https://www.cleveland19.com/2023/06/07/cleveland-city-council-member-asks-help-with-new-immigrants/

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

On 6/6/2023 at 2:04 AM, Dougal said:

Further confirmation of the Cleveland MSA's growth.  Bank of America says about 2.5% positive migration from Q1, 2020 to Q1, 2023.

 

https://business.bofa.com/en-us/content/bank-of-america-institute/economic-insights/housing-morsel-great-migration-continues.html?utm_source=Email_Institute&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Media_HousingMorsel_June_23&utm_content=060523_n_05_bank-of-america-institute/economic-insights/housing-morsel-great-migration-continues.html

Wow, that is great company to be in! But is it really any more accurate than those LinkedIn or U-Haul stats, which never really seem to align with Census numbers?

2 hours ago, brtshrcegr said:

Wow, that is great company to be in! But is it really any more accurate than those LinkedIn or U-Haul stats, which never really seem to align with Census numbers?

 

There's always a risk when the source is only one company's data. But it aligns with some recent reports like this one by the New York Times and compiled from Census data:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/05/16/cleveland-is-seeing-brain-gain-for-a-change/

 

That company compiling and supplying the data may also change its corporate policies as a result of it. For example, BOA is saying that there's a probability that population growth may be occurring in greater Cleveland. But at the same time building permits for new housing are far below those of other growing cities. It could result in BOA loosening its mortgage financing requirements here to pump more money into Cleveland.

5 hours ago, brtshrcegr said:

Wow, that is great company to be in! But is it really any more accurate than those LinkedIn or U-Haul stats, which never really seem to align with Census numbers?

In the longer write-up, the author notes that BofA's estimates are normally one full year ahead of the Census Bureau's.  This indicates to me that BofA has been doing this for a while with success, but the author offers no proof of that. Still, money will be invested based on this report, so BofA has every reason to make sure it's as accurate as possible.

2 hours ago, KJP said:

 

There's always a risk when the source is only one company's data. But it aligns with some recent reports like this one by the New York Times and compiled from Census data:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/05/16/cleveland-is-seeing-brain-gain-for-a-change/

 

That company compiling and supplying the data may also change its corporate policies as a result of it. For example, BOA is saying that there's a probability that population growth may be occurring in greater Cleveland. But at the same time building permits for new housing are far below those of other growing cities. It could result in BOA loosening its mortgage financing requirements here to pump more money into Cleveland.

I'm not reading too much into the building permit numbers because unlike those other markets, metro Cleveland has a glut of existing homes that had been vacant that need to be filled before new ones are built. Once occupancy catches up there, I'm guessing that if the BOA numbers are accurate, is when you'll see an even bigger jump in new building permits. 

Do we really have a glut of vacant homes that are move in ready or do we have vacant homes that are closer to being torn down rather than salvageable?

2 hours ago, Rando Sinclair said:

I'm not reading too much into the building permit numbers because unlike those other markets, metro Cleveland has a glut of existing homes that had been vacant that need to be filled before new ones are built. Once occupancy catches up there, I'm guessing that if the BOA numbers are accurate, is when you'll see an even bigger jump in new building permits. 

 

If you talk to realtors, they'll tell you how tight the inventory is. Yes, there's crap houses available. But the marketable stuff gets multiple cash offers above asking price within hours of getting listed.

^ Exactly 

aaaand let my old friend eileen going back to college and who has one of cle’s top realtor groups tell you herself how well the local cle market is doing — her smile sez it all:

 

 

 

3 hours ago, KJP said:

 

If you talk to realtors, they'll tell you how tight the inventory is. Yes, there's crap houses available. But the marketable stuff gets multiple cash offers above asking price within hours of getting listed.

I agree that there is a shortage of true marketable homes and that has pushed the cost of up on those and I agree there are also crap houses available (and also some non-crap houses that may be in more non-desirable neighborhoods) that are also available. But until a high percentage of those crap houses are absorbed (there are crap houses in all the hot markets that are selling above market), it will limit the sheer number of new building permits.

 

I guess my overall point is that some markets, population growth more directly correlates to the number of new permits. In a city like Cleveland, growth could be occurring just as fast even if the number of new permits is twice as little since there are far more available housing units (that is what BOA's internal numbers seem to show).

 

Plus, for building permits themselves, it would be interesting to see where the majority are going in different markets. My guess is the majority of permits in Cuyahoga County are within 5 miles of downtown; where as in say Austin they may be 10-15 miles out because they are still in the sprawl (or building out) portion of their growth. Cleveland seems to finally be at the rebuilding the core portion of its growth. 

 

 

 

BofA: they’re coming to Cleveland
By Ken Prendergast / June 8, 2023

 

Another leading indicator of potential population growth in Greater Cleveland was published this week by Bank of America (BofA), one of the nation’s Big Four banking institutions, serving more than 10 percent of all bank deposits of the United States. In a BofA June report, it put Greater Cleveland among the top metro areas benefitting from pandemic-instigated domestic migration trends, with its positive inflow-over-outflow rate ranking up there with the likes of Austin, Tampa, Orlando and Dallas.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/06/08/bofa-theyre-coming-to-cleveland/

I know nothing about the source of this report (gusto.com), but these positive reports are coming with greater frequency.  One of these days, even the Census Bureau may take notice.

 

EDIT:  gusto.com is incorrect and I can't find the original site. Sorry.

 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FystdzrWcAEysrM?format=png&name=small

 

Another version:

 

I'm From Cleveland on Twitter: "Ohio ranked #1 as the Fastest-Growing City for Jobs in April 2023 👷‍♀️ https://t.co/Dwg7bgTk1h" / Twitter

I saw that the other and wondered about the source of information. Where did it come from? 

On 6/17/2023 at 7:58 AM, KJP said:

I saw that the other and wondered about the source of information. Where did it come from? 

 

I don't know; can't find my source.  So here's another one.  FreddieMac says Cleveland has positive migration as of June 2022.

 

 

In Pursuit of Affordable Housing: The Migration of Homebuyers within the U.S.—Before and After the Pandemic - Freddie Mac

6 hours ago, Dougal said:

 

So here's another one.  FreddieMac says Cleveland has positive migration as of June 2022.

 

 

I'd be stunned if that wasn't the case.   We're very affordable as cities/urban areas go and have most of the amenities of much larger cities.  We're much nicer climate wise (physical and cultural) than people give us credit for.   We're a blue city in a red state, those seem to be doing better than blue/blue cities.  As more and more people can work from anywhere, we're more attractive.

23 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

I'd be stunned if that wasn't the case.   We're very affordable as cities/urban areas go and have most of the amenities of much larger cities.  We're much nicer climate wise (physical and cultural) than people give us credit for.   We're a blue city in a red state, those seem to be doing better than blue/blue cities.  As more and more people can work from anywhere, we're more attractive.

 

I know this is anecdotal - but just the amount of double parcel lots going up in my neighborhood is staggering. There hasn't been demand for that sort of density in Ohio City or any Near West neighborhoods since before 1960.  

2 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

I'd be stunned if that wasn't the case.   We're very affordable as cities/urban areas go and have most of the amenities of much larger cities.  We're much nicer climate wise (physical and cultural) than people give us credit for.   We're a blue city in a red state, those seem to be doing better than blue/blue cities.  As more and more people can work from anywhere, we're more attractive.

 

It surprised me who some of the losers are, though.  Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Madison, Detroit, Pittsburgh, and 'booming' Columbus. Cincy, oddly, gained and then lost. 

Columbus is actually becoming more blue collar if you ask me. A lot of our white-collar jobs are the kind that are most vulnerable and a large number of our corporate jobs are (or were) in the retail sector. Some of our startups are floundering too, such as Root.

24 minutes ago, Dougal said:

 

It surprised me who some of the losers are, though.  Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Madison, Detroit, Pittsburgh, and 'booming' Columbus. Cincy, oddly, gained and then lost. 

 

Keep in mind these are metro areas (including suburbs) and home buyers.   

10 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

I'd be stunned if that wasn't the case.   We're very affordable as cities/urban areas go and have most of the amenities of much larger cities.  We're much nicer climate wise (physical and cultural) than people give us credit for.   We're a blue city in a red state, those seem to be doing better than blue/blue cities.  As more and more people can work from anywhere, we're more attractive.

We're affordable because it's not a desirable location as indicated by the actual official numbers to follow the census. For years I keep hearing that the population has flattened out, or in no time we'll start growing. Yet, the pop. has now dropped to an abysmal sub 370K people. Cinci is likely to overcome Cleveland in the next 3 decades at this rate 

@YABO713 do you mean those double lots are being turned into single family homes, multi-family buildings or are they being turned into two single family homes?

Not to read too much into this, but the Census Bureau's adjusted and not-adjusted numbers for the Cleveland MSA are much closer together than they used to be. In the May unemployment report the workforce, employed, and unemployed are less that a thousand apart.  The differences used to be wider, sometimes much wider.  I'd love to know how they have been tweaking the Cleveland data.

 

https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost

A list of seven population winners and seven losers for the first half of 2023, according to Post Office data: Cleveland is fourth on the winners' list (also posted in the I Love thread).

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/where-people-are-moving-to-and-moving-from-usps-data-2023-5#4-cleveland-13

In Cleveland Heights / University Heights / Shaker Heights / Beachwood I have noticed a very dramatic uptick in traffic over the past few months. 
 

Any ideas what this relates to? Possible population influx or WFH ending? Something else?