I certainly don't think it's a bad idea ... I'll even bake cupcakes if you organize a meeting.  :-)

 

I just think that the idea a) is going to be shied away from by our civic leadership, who doesn't want to rock the newly built "regionalism" boat and b) would require a great deal of acument and foresight from the far exurban/near rural elected leadership. It would require these individuals foregoing tax revenue, etc. in favor of protecting the natural amenities that drew many residents to these locations in the first place. I for one am on your page and think it's a worthwhile discussion to have, but I think we need some very savvy (elected) local champions, both in and outside of Cuyahoga County, before it would gain even an ounce of traction. So let's start educatin'!!!

 

Blinker, I also agree with your assessment of the article. It actually reminded me of the 2004 presidential coverage, when the established media was shocked to learn that ... gasp ... exit polls are only estimates and can have substantial margins of error. Here's hoping for a 2010 upset, and in the meantime, here's hoping for some news coverage that offers a meaningful analysis instead of a rather trite examination of months-old Census data.

As much as I agree there should be some sort of smart growth/growth boundary/whatever in the region, the recent actions of late from state supreme courts across the nation make this a very unlikely concept to gain traction in Ohio.

Somebody somewhere is going to cry that by restricting growth (that is, not allowing a developer to purchase land from a farmer for a new subdivision) the government is actually 'taking' the value of their land.

 

We need to think of some new creative way to institute a growth management policy, or a clever way to market the old ones.

^i agree. The most successful ideas are usually the most creative. Oregon has had wild success with its growth boundary (up until recently), but Ohio is very different. 

Does anyone on here know how much of an effect the Western Reserve Land Conservancy has on limiting growth in and around Northeast Ohio?  I recall a few weeks back they received a substantial ($1 million?) donation from a couple in Hunting Valley.  Seems things like conservation easements might be a better option for the short term as they can be undertaken by private citizens and they don't require a vote and/or legislative action.  At the current time Ohio seems a little heavy on property rights, likely preventing any positive movement toward growth restrictions.

^Good point.

That would absolutely count as a creative way to control growth.

So now everyone needs to purchase up the remaining farmland in Medina County and donate it to the Conservancy.

 

Meanwhile, I saw this article on CBS.com. Interesting 'analysis' of the latest census numbers.

 

 

Census: Diversity Growing In 49 States

WASHINGTON, Aug. 15, 2006(AP)

By Melissa McNamara

 

America's growing diversity has reached nearly every state.

 

From South Carolina's budding immigrant population to the fast-rising number of Hispanics in Arkansas, minority groups make up an increasing share of the population in every state but one, according figures Tuesday by the Census Bureau.

 

"This is just an extraordinary explosion of diversity all across the United States," said William Frey, a demographer at the Brookings Institution, a Washington think tank. "It's diversity and immigration going hand in hand."

 

West Virginia is the exception, with its struggling economy and little history of attracting immigrants...

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/15/national/main1895117.shtml

 

So now everyone needs to purchase up the remaining farmland in Medina County and donate it to the Conservancy.

 

Let me just whip out the checkbook... :wink:

I always find the discussion of urban growth boundaries and other development regulations to be fascinating. It's not because I disagree or agree with the regulations, but because of how existing laws can be used to serve changing societal values. That is, after all, one of the magical features of the Constitution -- an 18th-century document can be interpreted to govern a 21st-century society.

 

So, let's consider the issue of smoking. Until quite recently, it was considered a constitutionally protected freedom of choice to smoke wherever you wanted. You could smoke anywhere in offices, restaurants, on planes, etc. And tobacco companies could advertise wherever they wanted (some of you are probably too young to remember that Winston commercials were broadcast during the Flintstones cartoons!). All of those things are unthikable today, as smokers have become veritable lepers in society.

 

What changed? It wasn't constitutional law. Societal values were changed through research, education and advocacy. The law was interpreted differently to adjust to those new values, despite having to overcome a very well-funded, powerful and entrenched political lobby group -- the tobacco companies.

 

So think about how existing constitutional law can be interpreted to favor development regulation. Such as:

 

1. National security: we are rapidly losing the most productive farmland in the world to sprawling development, which not limits our ability to grow more food, but to dramatically expand agricultural activities for ethanol to wean ourselves from our oil addiction and dependence on Middle Eastern oil. Ironically, it's the automobile-dependent sprawl-burbia lifestyle which is on a collision course with a domestic alternative to oil imported from politically unstable nations. I love ironies like this!

 

2. Social justice/spatial mismatch of jobs to job seekers: consider U.S. Census data which shows 70 percent of the new jobs are being created at the urban fringe, while the greatest concentrations of labor and unemployment are near to the urban core. As the new jobs are created farther and farther away from available labor resources (and the financial abilities of those persons to reach the jobs), it creates a spatial mismatch in which public/private actions to perpetuate it may constitute a civil rights violation.

 

3. Tax burden: expanding the size of the metro area at rates that exceed (and often greatly exceed) the growth of a urbanized region's population, wealth and taxbase creates duplicative tax-supported infrastructures (roads, sewers, public facilities, etc) and thus public expenditures and the taxes needed to support them rise faster than growth of and population/wealth. Put this one under the constitutional mantle of ensuring limited government.

 

4. Tax burden Part II: For elected officials of political jurisdictions just beyond the urban fringe, they see pretty tax dollars twinkle in their eyes when they have a chance to attract new development. That's understandable. But what they don't understand is net fiscal impact. It is true that industrial taxpayers have the most beneficial net fiscal impact on local governments. But coming in second is agriculture -- because it requires little or no public services. Trailing far behind on the net fiscal impact scale are housing developments and retail. Yet, when industrial taxpayers come to town, the residential and retail aren't far behind. Rural local governmental officials need to understand that tax revenues are only half of the equation of new development. And they need to understand this before deciding whether to zone land as agricultural, or to rezone it for new development.

 

Those are just a few issues off the top of my head. Feel free to add any others you might think of. A discussion of constitutional interpretation vs. changing societal values is one that we should be having here, and might even warrant a separate thread.

This PD story drove me nuts, not because of its content but because of its tenor. It was like the writer couldn't get enough of it. It was like he was enjoying the news with the slow, delight of a guy slicking warm butter and jelly on a bagel.

 

The Beacon did this on Sunday when they ran a big story about how the job situation in Ohio is lousy. On Crains' Web site they even had the poll question "Is Northeast Ohio a dying region?"

 

What the hell?!

 

First of all, did anyone honestly think we could stop decades of population shrinkage in something like six years? That's insane and really unfair. I'm no social scientist, but I imagine the year Cuyahoga County ADDS 6 people will be a time for celebration. We should be trying to slow the bleeding, not thinking one speech is going to create Los Angeles-like growth. There's no reason for that to change yet. We haven't fixed any of our problems. Population 500,000+? Maybe when I'm old.

 

The thing I don't get about this doom and gloom reporting is an overall context of how business and marketing work. If you have a business and all of the sudden you loose a couple huge customers, it doesn't mean you're dead. It means you have reinvent your company, rethink what you do and keep plugging away until you get some traction. Cleveland needs some real leadership, and I don't mean one white knight, but a lot of people and they won't be asking "are we rotting away" questions.

 

 

 

Blinker, I think you’re on to something.  The problem, as it always is here, is the absence of leadership.  Greater Cleveland’s a microcosm of the nation, politically.  The sinister, divisive, libertarian (see, city-killing) movers & shakers with of a regressive mindset are super aggressive in promoting the “sprawl as freedom” “ regulation as socialism” mentality, while the other men and women in office (who may be of a more Democrat ilk) are merely status quo caretakers who are quick to throw up their ‘we can’t/too many obstacles’ hands  whenever a solution is offered.

 

I’m wondering whether it’s time to revisit the metropolitan government idea again.  It always seems a nonstarter here because of our legendary territorial squabbling.  I’ve never particularly been a fan of it, but I’m more open now than other.  We have to start pulling together as a region; at the very least, as a county.

 

And we must promote improved mass transit -- not as some gimmick to please a narrow interest like the (very wise) interests on this board; not as the sole tool for college-age youth and the poor but as the vehicle that can presever and enhance Greater Cleveland as a true urban area with a true city center --  the kind that existed before freeways existed.  We must get pols to seriously buy in to the idea of transit and TOD growth, , we’re doomed to more and more sprawl.  The ability of the Beachwoods and Independences, Westlakes and Mayfields to suck corporate and retail life out of downtown, what’s even worse is the insistence of our leaders (or better, the vacuum of leadership) that pushing for sprawl beyond even the existing sprawl (guess that’s the definition of sprawl to begin with). 

 

We’ve already seen the lifestyle district craze with Crocker and Legacy, and to a lesser extent Eton.  But look at Harvard & I-271 where a large Marriott just materialized in about a year -- a Marriott that would look awfully nice in the Warehouse District about at the same plot (W .6th & Lakeside) where the 330-room DoubleTree complex failed about 5 years ago.  Across Harvard, a bunch of big boxes are going. 

 

New development – sprawling, single-use office parks (and many times the concomitant cul-de-sac housing) sprouts up like mushrooms next to a freeway exit yet coughs and often dies in the city.  Why?  Because developers are afraid to stick their necks out in the city, particularly downtown, and banks are not backing them.

 

We all look with envy at Chicago.  It's huge and successful, yet it's Midwestern and very much like us on a larger scale.  It works for a lot of reasons (cooperation and smart planning, among the big assets), but excellent mass transit is a, if not THE key element that promotes that huge urban area's tight, verticle downtown as well as its numerous walking neighborhoods.  Great transit is also helping spawn inner-city gentrification on a scale no city in this country is seeing -- not even New York or D.C.  And yet, I stress again, it's Midwestern.  It's flat, its gigantic, got a lot of freeways (and toll roads) and, yes, appears to sprawl because it's so thick with suburbs.  But yet, many of the burbs -- and and practically all small suburban districts/groups are served by some form of commuter rail; burbs with distinct downtowns centered around these rail stations and not freeway exits like those of Cleveland and Detroit -- cities that continue (doomed to forever, it seems) to look on the "capital of the Midwest" with envy.

 

I’m not a fan of BRT/ECP, but I’ll get behind the thing if it, at least, gets this region off its ass in at least entertaining the idea of pedestrian-oriented, accessible growth along the Euclid Corridor.  We must push hard for the two big potential regional rail projects: the CVSR 8 mile extension linking Cleveland, Akron and Canton as well as areas in between (including single-use sprawl areas like Steelyards and Independence; Lorain commuter rail project, linking Lakewood, our most densely populated burb, with a string of growth burbs along the West shoreline.  I’m also an advocate of extending the Waterfront Line east along the lakeshore to Gordon Park; to Collinwood and possibly Euclid.  Where the hell is Frank Jackson on such an obvious Smart Growh project as this?  Why isn’t he, or some urban/technical person pulling his coattails about potential high-density development near a Rapid-commuter train station at West Blvd?  Esp with commuter rail in tandem with existing and (hopefully, someday) expanded rapid transit, we’ve got to promote the idea of Cleveland, esp downtown, as a regional hub and not the undesirable, avoidable appendage many of the region’s suburbs look upon Cleveland as.

 

As I always ask in this city: WHERE THE HELL IS THE LEADERSHIP!!

 

Another incentive-oriented approach, which has been discussed here, is taxing RE by its value – esp in targeted districts, like downtown -- rather than the even, across the board square footage tax we have now.

 

   *    *    *

 

btw, I agree about the PD article's lazy gloom & doom.  That's par for the course for that newsrag.  About the only reporter on urban issues who seems to take his/her craft seriously over there is architecture critic Steven Litt.

 

 

90.3 @ 9 is going to have a discussion on this topic tomorrow (Thursday) morning.

Add one to Cleveland's Population numbers, i convince a co-worker from out of state to move to the city limits, he was just hired permanently, and had live temporally in twinburg. finally a win!

 

Making Cleveland bigger one person at a time!

^I got my sister-in-law from Nashville to move to Ohio City! Hey, and I have fine one year-old boy that I am raising to be a fine citizen of Cleveland.

^We need start an Urban Ohio breeding program to repopulate Ohio's cities.  Sorry MayDay, Blinker, etc....you're gonna have to take one for the team.

^It might be equally effective for us non-breeders to adopt out-of-state and "nurture" the children into a love of Ohio cities.

^It might be equally effective for us non-breeders to adopt out-of-state and "nurture" the children into a love of Ohio cities.

 

Let's get some grant money from the Cleveland Foundation and get this project rolling!

If they ask what the money is for we'll tell them "booze, and lots of it".

Can we do a capture and release program instead of breedings.

Does anyone have any numbers for downtown's population trends? I know the city as a whole is losing a lot but I'm interested how the the heart of Cleveland is doing because I know that growth will probably start there and work its way out.

If they ask what the money is for we'll tell them "booze, and lots of it".

 

If we're going to make a major impact, I suspect the Cleveland Foundation will want to see a budget line item for Viagra, too.

Cuyahoga's exodus rivals that of Katrina counties

Thursday, March 22, 2007

Robert L. Smith

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

A new census report exposes more of the wrath of Hurricane Katrina, showing sharp population declines in waterfront counties of Louisiana and Mississippi. But it may also leave some observers wondering what natural disaster struck Northeast Ohio.

 

Cuyahoga County saw the sixth-largest drop in population among American counties, losing about 16,000 people between July 2005 and July 2006...

 

http://www.cleveland.com/forums/braindrain/index.ssf?artid=4775

That's a very misleading title and story in general. In pure numbers, it may look like the county lost Katrina-like population. However, Cuyahoga is one of the largest counties in the US. As a percentage of population, it does not rival Katrina counties.

 

Also, the whole region lost less than 1% of its population. That's not good, but it is not as dramatic as this story makes it seem.

welcome  guatadopt    :wave:

 

Typical PD..doom and gloom stories.

 

Start of negative and all you "translate" in the following reading is "negative" poor old tired cleveland.

 

I have to agree with the above comments. The article is over the top, but I'm sure many readers fail to look beyond the PD.

Thanks for the welcome MyTwoSense. I wonder if the county could challenge the population. Cleveland has one of the fastest growing downtowns in the country. How could the county have lost that many people while downtown, Strongsville, North Royalton, etc. have gained people?

 

Doesn't make sense. Although, I think the bigger issue is why...and that has to do with stagnant leadership.

"Part of the answer may be immigration," Frey said. "As these [immigrant] waves continue to move outward from the coasts, they'll find places like Cleveland, which holds some promise with its cheaper housing."

 

One of the reasons we gained a small percentage of population here in Broward County is immigration. One of the main reasons we lost population was high cost of housing. We lost nearly the same as Cuyahoga from 2005 to 2006, 18,459. Only immigration and births put us in the black.

Thanks for the welcome MyTwoSense. I wonder if the county could challenge the population. Cleveland has one of the fastest growing downtowns in the country. How could the county have lost that many people while downtown, Strongsville, North Royalton, etc. have gained people?

 

Doesn't make sense. Although, I think the bigger issue is why...and that has to do with stagnant leadership.

What you say is correct, but take a ride around intercity Cleveland outside of dt and look at the abandonment.  I am surprised that is all that is lost.  Yes, it is a doom and gloom article, but it does speak the truth.  A ride along miles, union, harvard, broadway, dennison, storer etc the list goes on, is very deepressing when in fact, I at one time lived in those areas when they were vibrant.  Imagine if that ever happened to Strongsville, North Royalton or Westlake.  A kid that's 10 today would drive through there 45 years from now and want to cry.  It's terrible, but what happened.  Where did it go wrong.  Just because highways were built doesn't mean people had to move.  Why did they want to move.  hopefully someday it turns around, but it takes a long time to rebuild versus dimantle. 

Thanks for the welcome MyTwoSense. I wonder if the county could challenge the population. Cleveland has one of the fastest growing downtowns in the country. How could the county have lost that many people while downtown, Strongsville, North Royalton, etc. have gained people?

 

Doesn't make sense. Although, I think the bigger issue is why...and that has to do with stagnant leadership.

 

Look at what's happening with the inner-ring suburbs. Lakewood, Brook Park, Brooklyn, Euclid, Maple Heights and others are getting poorer, and people are leaving for newer, made-to-order homes. The inner-ring suburbs don't have much vacant land for new construction. Cleveland does. Unfortunately, in Ohio, economic development tends to happens most where vacant land is most prevalent. Thus, a built-out community has to fall to such depths that buildings have to burn, fall down or be demolished before it can start to come back. We have more tools these days (historic tax credits, brownfield programs, revolving loan funds, etc) to rebuild communities before they get to that desperate condition, but they simply aren't enough to compete with the clean/green land at the urban fringe. And ODOT is all too ready assist with wider highways and new interchanges to fertilize that land with sprawl.

So Cuyahoga is #4 for population percentage loss....guess which is #3?  Cook county in Illinois.

 

No one is worried that Chicago is dying, so lets not get too worried it.  The problem of exurbia isn't new.

I didn't see where it said Cook County was number 3.  That's hard to believe.  But it is what it is. 

both myself and my brother moved to lakewood recently from outside the area and know a good handful of others that work and live downtown that have moved their in the last 1-2 years coming from the sticks of ashtabula county. most are in law or managers at restaurants and clubs go figure....since ive lived here i have gotten noting from the census bureau nor have any of my friends...so i hafta believe their numbers are at least a lil off. i also believe farmland values are going to increase soon with the price of corn starting to rise because of ethanol consumption hopefully stonewalling rural-suburban developers. i hope.

Exactly, gavster.  Keep in mind that the Census Bureau has estimates claiming that the city of Cleveland has lost 64,000 people in 5 years, and miraculously "found" 32,000 more people living in DC and 37,000 more people living in Boston when it revised those citys' 2005 population estimates.  While I do believe that Cuyahoga County is still losing people, I don't put any faith in those numbers.  Too bad the PD does.

 

EDIT:  The 64,000 number is from the Community Survey, which I know is not the same thing as the population estimates, but I think it's a good example of the wild numbers the Census Bureau puts out there.

They never substantiate the claim with the numbers of any of the other counties?  Since when can one make real judgements of statistics by rank order?

both myself and my brother moved to lakewood recently from outside the area and know a good handful of others that work and live downtown that have moved their in the last 1-2 years coming from the sticks of ashtabula county. most are in law or managers at restaurants and clubs go figure....since ive lived here i have gotten noting from the census bureau nor have any of my friends...so i hafta believe their numbers are at least a lil off. i also believe farmland values are going to increase soon with the price of corn starting to rise because of ethanol consumption hopefully stonewalling rural-suburban developers. i hope.

 

Bear in mind that these are just projections and estimates.  They are not doing any hard counts...they are averaging in birth rates, death rates and general migration patterns.  Of course these numbers are slightly off, but hopefully they will all be worked out by the next Census in 2010.  I for one feel that the Census under counts inner-cities and over counts suburbia.

 

Take for example Phoenix...it is VERY easy to count the number of new homes built in an area.  Multiply that times the avg household size and shish boom bang...there is your estimate.  The same is not true for urban areas.  Not to mention many of the homes that have been built in 'booming' areas are actually sitting empty as spec houses, investment properties and/or are just vacant.

 

This is a major problem because it perpetuates the larger social issue that occurs as a result.  People read these doom and gloom articles and figure a couple of things.  The majority of people are leaving the city, cities are decaying/suburbs are thriving.  So what do ya know...the first time trouble rears its ugly head those people are ready and willing to pack up and leave for the 'burbs.

 

They might be able to find a better quality of life by moving into downtown Cleveland or one of the other successful inner-city neighborhoods, but instead of taking the time they take the 'easy' solution and head for the 'burbs.  It, in my opinion, is a vicious cycle...one that I don't have an answer for  :|

I didn't see where it said Cook County was number 3.  That's hard to believe.  But it is what it is. 

 

it was on the news here in Chicago.  They said #1 was detroit and #2 was New Orleans

just for fun I calculated numbers for the Cleveland MSA and CSA

 

Net population change 2005-2006 based on Census Estimates... not other county in the MSA had a loss... but both counties in Akron's MSA posted small losses

 

Cleveland MSA: -10,503

Cleveland-Akron CSA: -10,995

 

 

Cook County is the second largest county in the nation with well over 5 million people.  Pratically speaking, it is like its own state.

 

I expect that when the actual Census is done, Cook won't fare as badly because I don't think the Census Bureau does that great a job of tracking foreign immigration.

 

The population decline in Cuyahoga isn't worth panicking over, but it isn't something to dismiss either.

 

I e-mailed the reporter about the inaccurate title and he responded. He said our(the PD's) numbers people agree with you that the title is misleading. He went on to say he wrote it like this to get people to go out and do something about the population loss.

I e-mailed the reporter about the inaccurate title and he responded. He said our(the PD's) numbers people agree with you that the title is misleading. He went on to say he wrote it like this to get people to go out and do something about the population loss.

 

Hmm, quite an interesting response....

I e-mailed the reporter about the inaccurate title and he responded. He said our(the PD's) numbers people agree with you that the title is misleading. He went on to say he wrote it like this to get people to go out and do something about the population loss.

 

What a load of BS!!!!!!!!!!!  He didn't write it to motivate people to do something about the population loss.  He did it to create a stir and get people to buy the paper and read his article.  Plain and simple...thats what yellow journalism is all about; todays media has mastered it!

I e-mailed the reporter about the inaccurate title and he responded. He said our(the PD's) numbers people agree with you that the title is misleading. He went on to say he wrote it like this to get people to go out and do something about the population loss.

 

What a load of BS!!!!!!!!!!!  He didn't write it to motivate people to do something about the population loss.  He did it to create a stir and get people to buy the paper and read his article.  Plain and simple...thats what yellow journalism is all about; todays media has mastered it!

 

Rando thats what I initially said to him. He's just trying to sell papers, though the article was on the front page below the fold.

There was discussion of this on WCPN Friday. The audio is here: http://www.wcpn.org/podcast/audio/2007/03/0323soi.mp3

have fuel hit 3 or 4 dollars a gallon.. you'll see a lot more people coming back to the city.. of course, we'll have new and more challenging problems to face than sprawl, but there you go.

I'm confused, as I always hear the opposite.  That people are moving to Cleveland not out of Cleveland especially with the cost of living in the Northeast.

 

The title is so misleading and so negative Cleveland. Why can't they also have counter balance and list ways to fight, halt or slow down the migration?

 

I rarely read the plain dealer because there is always bad reporting never any corrective measures articles.  This feeds into the negative self image Clevelanders have.

Thats interesting because every time I go onto the PD's website and try to view their articles...all I ever see is stories related to crime.  I want to try to keep up on Cleveland development projects and what not, but the local media isn't helping me out at all.

have fuel hit 3 or 4 dollars a gallon.. you'll see a lot more people coming back to the city.. of course, we'll have new and more challenging problems to face than sprawl, but there you go.

 

People say that, but I don't buy it. If gas ever hit $4 a gallon (which is what some studies say is the level it would need to reach to inspire any noticeable change in consumption), I think we'd finally be motivated to find alternative fuels that would allow us to continue our car-dependent lifestyle. That process is already underway as gas prices inch up, actually.

Thats interesting because every time I go onto the PD's website and try to view their articles...all I ever see is stories related to crime.  I want to try to keep up on Cleveland development projects and what not, but the local media isn't helping me out at all.

 

You must not be looking very hard. The PD actually does an OK job covering development. Click the "View today's print headlines" link on the front page -- there's often a story or two there.

 

Anyway, why are you bothering with Cleveland.com? Anything relevant is posted on Urban Ohio.

have fuel hit 3 or 4 dollars a gallon.. you'll see a lot more people coming back to the city.. of course, we'll have new and more challenging problems to face than sprawl, but there you go.

 

People say that, but I don't buy it. If gas ever hit $4 a gallon (which is what some studies say is the level it would need to reach to inspire any noticeable change in consumption), I think we'd finally be motivated to find alternative fuels that would allow us to continue our car-dependent lifestyle. That process is already underway as gas prices inch up, actually.

 

It would be interesting to see the impact on economy, between the time gas hits 4 bucks a gallon and alternative fuels actually become mainstream within the context of the direction our health care system.

 

I'm confused, as I always hear the opposite.  That people are moving to Cleveland not out of Cleveland especially with the cost of living in the Northeast.

 

The title is so misleading and so negative Cleveland. Why can't they also have counter balance and list ways to fight, halt or slow down the migration?

 

I rarely read the plain dealer because there is always bad reporting never any corrective measures articles.  This feeds into the negative self image Clevelanders have.

 

 

I wish there was a way to see how many people are moving here (Cle) from the Northeast. Lately on this site and a few others it seems as if alot of Northeasterners are trying Cleveland out, I just wonder how significant this is in hard numbers.  I will say that I recently recieved a report on Ohio and Cleveland that mentioned how the low cost of living is attracting those from the NE, but it also said that won't be enough to completely swing the population growth to positive numbers. I like to post can someone tell me how to post a file thats in PDF?

 

All that said I think 5 years from now will be a much better time for Cleveland.

have fuel hit 3 or 4 dollars a gallon.. you'll see a lot more people coming back to the city.. of course, we'll have new and more challenging problems to face than sprawl, but there you go.

 

People say that, but I don't buy it. If gas ever hit $4 a gallon (which is what some studies say is the level it would need to reach to inspire any noticeable change in consumption), I think we'd finally be motivated to find alternative fuels that would allow us to continue our car-dependent lifestyle. That process is already underway as gas prices inch up, actually.

 

I too think that we are screwed.  Once gas finally does hit $4 a gallon we will have another fuel source...so that we don't have to abandoned our auto-centric lifestyles that our nation is built upon.  While other nations our pushing the transit envelope now, we are just starting.  By the time gas hits that mark we still will not have the transit infrastructure in place to become a society that has a true option when it comes to transportation.  Maybe my outlook is grim, but its what I forsee.

 

You must not be looking very hard. The PD actually does an OK job covering development. Click the "View today's print headlines" link on the front page -- there's often a story or two there.

 

Anyway, why are you bothering with Cleveland.com? Anything relevant is posted on Urban Ohio.

 

True...true; I do typically get my news from here for other cities.  But from time to time I do my own digging, and while I do find some stories mixed in from time to time...I usually come up empty.  Although I will say I have better luck with the PD for news in Cleveland than I do with the Dispatch for news in Cbus.

Cuyahoga, Alleghany (Pittsburgh), Wayne (Detroit) and Cook (Chicago) all ranked in the top 10 terms of in total people moving out of these counties. But in terms of percentage I doubt any of the four cracked the top 50. A large swath of counties in the high plains from west Texas to North Dakota lost roughly 2-8% of their population due to deaths and out-migration due to larger farms that need fewer people. It's also easy to drop a high percentage in these counties if as few as 30 people disappear in a county of 400.