^Edgecliff between East 204 and East 219 is pretty amazing.  Spent a couple years as a kid on E214th.

 

In other words, a suburbanized urban neighborhood?

I have 3 siblings who live on the lake in Euclid, for the price of a small house in Lakewood. 

 

Mayfield to me is really surprising, but I guess the apartments over there are in good shape, and apparently in demand?

I have 3 siblings who live on the lake in Euclid, for the price of a small house in Lakewood. 

 

Mayfield to me is really surprising, but I guess the apartments over there are in good shape, and apparently in demand?

 

There certainly are some cool pockets of shangri la-type communities along that shoreline stretch of Euclid and Cleveland. My friends recently moved from Baltimore, MD to E 196th and they absolutely love it. 

Cleveland is most segregated city in America

http://cleveland.suntimes.com/cle-news/7/91/281863/cleveland-segregation

Segregation is a problem in Cleveland, but there is no way we are more segregated than Chicago or Detroit.  NO WAY!

 

I doubt the validity of the studies cited in the above article

 

Here is an article from the LA times

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-segregation-declines-20151202-story.html

 

Of the major metropolitan areas, the new census data show, Milwaukee has the highest black-white segregation, with a value of 81, followed closely by New York and Chicago. Los Angeles has an index of 68, ranked eight.

 

Downtown Cleveland Alliance outlines population, job growth in annual report

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20160323/NEWS/160329914/downtown-cleveland-alliance-outlines-population-job-growth-in-annual&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1

Downtown Cleveland Alliance outlines population, job growth in annual report

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20160323/NEWS/160329914/downtown-cleveland-alliance-outlines-population-job-growth-in-annual&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1

 

I'm surprised Crain's is posting this puff piece.

 

Downtown transformation is great but it's clearly not having an effect on the region as a whole.

 

It would be nice for Crain's or anyone to do an article on why Greater Cleveland's labor market and population continues to shrink while most other regions have recovered from the Great Recession.

Our labor market and population were shrinking prior to the recession.

The idea that local media hasn't paid attention to the region's economic malaise is a bit ridiculous.

The idea that local media hasn't paid attention to the region's economic malaise is a bit ridiculous.

 

The PD posts negative pieces with no real analysis. No argument there.

 

It's just that there never is any real analysis anywhere about market issues. It's either CSU or DCA trying to pump Cleveland up or the PD trying to tear Cleveland down. It would be nice to read something looking at why Cleveland continues to struggle why most areas aren't without the usual slant. I guess that is hard to do.

I'm not really basing this on much but the continued contraction of the labor force is probably due to a flat regional population that continues, as a whole, to age and retire.  Not much you can do about that - it's like watching gravity work.  Not really a calamity either.

The 2015 pop estimates were just released by the Census Bureau:

 

Cuyahoga County dropped 4,689 and the MSA dropped 3,269.

 

Here's a link to a data table showing the three C metro areas and core counties: http://1.usa.gov/1ZwwNdF

I'm not really basing this on much but the continued contraction of the labor force is probably due to a flat regional population that continues, as a whole, to age and retire.  Not much you can do about that - it's like watching gravity work.  Not really a calamity either.

 

Yes, and to go one step further (obviously not in response to you), "attract more jobs" isn't a policy, it's a goal. No one knows how to make it happen. Even our current gubernatorial administration, which has made this goal #1, can't pull the state from near the bottom of the pile.

^ Couldn't have said it better.

Our labor market and population were shrinking prior to the recession.

 

Not in the 1990s.  Although it was a shadow of the growth prior to 1960.

I'm not really basing this on much but the continued contraction of the labor force is probably due to a flat regional population that continues, as a whole, to age and retire.  Not much you can do about that - it's like watching gravity work.  Not really a calamity either.

 

Yeah but if businesses were creating jobs at better clip, the labor force wouldn't contract. It's not a complex issue on that front.

 

Why aren't business creating more jobs in Greater Cleveland? That's the question.

I'm not really basing this on much but the continued contraction of the labor force is probably due to a flat regional population that continues, as a whole, to age and retire.  Not much you can do about that - it's like watching gravity work.  Not really a calamity either.

 

Yes, and to go one step further (obviously not in response to you), "attract more jobs" isn't a policy, it's a goal. No one knows how to make it happen. Even our current gubernatorial administration, which has made this goal #1, can't pull the state from near the bottom of the pile.

 

Yet Columbus and Cincinnati are expanding. There are successful cities all over the country that Greater Cleveland can use as an example. So I don't buy "no one knows how it happens". It happens on a such a large scale in the US that most places are successful in attracting new jobs and expanding labor markets. Greater Cleveland is a consistent outlier in this. Why?

I'm not really basing this on much but the continued contraction of the labor force is probably due to a flat regional population that continues, as a whole, to age and retire.  Not much you can do about that - it's like watching gravity work.  Not really a calamity either.

 

Yeah but if businesses were creating jobs at better clip, the labor force wouldn't contract. It's not a complex issue on that front.

 

Why aren't business creating more jobs in Greater Cleveland? That's the question.

 

Not sure.  But I suspect the answer may be related to the question my girlfriend asks me every night - "Why don't you make more money?"  Let me know when you figure it out so I can let her know.

I'm not really basing this on much but the continued contraction of the labor force is probably due to a flat regional population that continues, as a whole, to age and retire.  Not much you can do about that - it's like watching gravity work.  Not really a calamity either.

 

Yeah but if businesses were creating jobs at better clip, the labor force wouldn't contract. It's not a complex issue on that front.

 

Why aren't business creating more jobs in Greater Cleveland? That's the question.

 

Not sure.  But I suspect the answer may be related to the question my girlfriend asks me every night - "Why don't you make more money?"  Let me know when you figure it out so I can let her know.

 

So because it is difficult to answer we let Greater Cleveland fade away? Why don't we ask local political and industry leaders, on a consistent basis, why they aren't making the area more attractive to employers? I don't get it and, as you can tell, it frustrates the hell out of me.

Maybe Cleveland is an outlier because our economy was so heavily reliant of manufacturing for the past 100 years. The same can be said with Pittsburgh, Detroit and Buffalo. (Pittsburgh's MSA dropped about 5k).  I think some of us are too young to remember how many manufacturing jobs used to be here. It is mind boggling to think how many manufacturing jobs here 40, 50, 60 years ago. My Dad worked at J&L in the 70s. When he started there were 6,000 people employed there. When he retired from Mittal in 2011 (same mill, different name) less than 1500 worked there. That’s just one factory. There were hundreds more mills and factories like that all over Northeast Ohio that used to employ thousands of people. For the most part, they’re all gone. In my opinion, our regional demographics don't help job growth/attraction as we have less college graduates than the national average because we were so heavily reliant on manufacturing for long. Some companies in the region are having a hard time finding talent because of this. However, this has been slowing changing as we're creeping slowly towards the national average. Also, some of the numbers suggests we are attracting younger, more educated people (obviously not enough). The transition to a knowledge/service based economy has been painfully slow and frustrating but not unexpected considering we were one of the most industrialized regions in the world at one point.  I do agree our leaders can and should be doing more.

I think the best industry and political leaders can do is to get out of the way.  Political leadership should focus on its core competency of managing infrastructure and basic civil services (police, fire, courts, records systems, etc.)

 

With a stagnant economy, there is always an urge for a centrally planned top-down solution from government and industry but I'm of the opinion that they almost always make things worse.  The combination of industry and politics usually includes a nasty habit of the former to use the latter to entrench its interests and burden its competitors, leading to more stagnation or contraction.  I think the two should remain separate as much as they can.

 

But really, there just isn't a policy or answer to the issue.  The figures you see are manifestations of infinite variables and cross currents working with and against each other on the local, regional, national, and international level.  There just isn't a way (that I see) to legislate a different set of outcomes that we find favorable in the abstract.

^We just need more medmarts!

 

I'm kidding, and I know that's not what AmrapinVA is asking for. But that's what "our politicians doing something" looks like. I'd tell you what it looks like at the state level, but apparently that's private and we're not allowed to know.

Tweeted by Jed Kolko (housing economist):

 

Maybe Cleveland is an outlier because our economy was so heavily reliant of manufacturing for the past 100 years. The same can be said with Pittsburgh, Detroit and Buffalo. (Pittsburgh's MSA dropped about 5k).  I think some of us are too young to remember how many manufacturing jobs used to be here. It is mind boggling to think how many manufacturing jobs here 40, 50, 60 years ago. My Dad worked at J&L in the 70s. When he started there were 6,000 people employed there. When he retired from Mittal in 2011 (same mill, different name) less than 1500 worked there. That’s just one factory. There were hundreds more mills and factories like that all over Northeast Ohio that used to employ thousands of people. For the most part, they’re all gone. In my opinion, our regional demographics don't help job growth/attraction as we have less college graduates than the national average because we were so heavily reliant on manufacturing for long. Some companies in the region are having a hard time finding talent because of this. However, this has been slowing changing as we're creeping slowly towards the national average. Also, some of the numbers suggests we are attracting younger, more educated people (obviously not enough). The transition to a knowledge/service based economy has been painfully slow and frustrating but not unexpected considering we were one of the most industrialized regions in the world at one point.  I do agree our leaders can and should be doing more.

You are exactly right.  Just drive down woodland, e 93rd, kinsman and Union.  So many huge vacant lots that once housed buildings that supported thousands of jobs.  My dad grew up at Lamontier and Woodhill, and always talks about how when you turned 18, you could walk those streets and find a career that would last your lifetime.  Look at e 79th.  There's two rapid stations on that street within a half mile of each other near Kinsman.  There were thousands of people that worked along that little stretch up through the mid 70s, hence the stations.

We need to get back to advanced manufacturing in Cleveland.  IMHO, it's the only hope we have in reviving the region. Degreed and non degreed people could raise families off those jobs.

I think the best industry and political leaders can do is to get out of the way.  Political leadership should focus on its core competency of managing infrastructure and basic civil services (police, fire, courts, records systems, etc.)

 

With a stagnant economy, there is always an urge for a centrally planned top-down solution from government and industry but I'm of the opinion that they almost always make things worse.  The combination of industry and politics usually includes a nasty habit of the former to use the latter to entrench its interests and burden its competitors, leading to more stagnation or contraction.  I think the two should remain separate as much as they can.

 

But really, there just isn't a policy or answer to the issue.  The figures you see are manifestations of infinite variables and cross currents working with and against each other on the local, regional, national, and international level.  There just isn't a way (that I see) to legislate a different set of outcomes that we find favorable in the abstract.

 

A few points:

 

You're wrong about the local economy. For about a half-century now Greater Cleveland's economy has not been stagnant, it's been contracting. It's contracting while almost every metro in the US, large and small, expands. Which means almost every metro area, large and small, in the US has been more attractive for employers and job seekers compared to Cleveland for about 50 years now.

 

Yet working on solution to getting out of the economic basement is out of everyone's control? I just don't believe that.

 

I'm not demanding legislation, just a realization by leaders that Greater Cleveland continues to be a choice of last resort for a vast majority of Americans who have choice between two places to work and live. And, maybe, just maybe, there are ways things can be done better. That there is probably an example or two that can be emulated from somewhere else.

Maybe Cleveland is an outlier because our economy was so heavily reliant of manufacturing for the past 100 years. The same can be said with Pittsburgh, Detroit and Buffalo. (Pittsburgh's MSA dropped about 5k).  I think some of us are too young to remember how many manufacturing jobs used to be here. It is mind boggling to think how many manufacturing jobs here 40, 50, 60 years ago. My Dad worked at J&L in the 70s. When he started there were 6,000 people employed there. When he retired from Mittal in 2011 (same mill, different name) less than 1500 worked there. That’s just one factory. There were hundreds more mills and factories like that all over Northeast Ohio that used to employ thousands of people. For the most part, they’re all gone. In my opinion, our regional demographics don't help job growth/attraction as we have less college graduates than the national average because we were so heavily reliant on manufacturing for long. Some companies in the region are having a hard time finding talent because of this. However, this has been slowing changing as we're creeping slowly towards the national average. Also, some of the numbers suggests we are attracting younger, more educated people (obviously not enough). The transition to a knowledge/service based economy has been painfully slow and frustrating but not unexpected considering we were one of the most industrialized regions in the world at one point.  I do agree our leaders can and should be doing more.

 

Yeah, I don't remember when Cleveland had 750,000 but I do remember when it had 575,000. I lived near W 117th and Lorain in the 1980s. Used to eat at the diner on the corner all the time. I used to have a friend who lived off of St. Clair and 55th. There's nothing left there now. There has to be a better way.

I'm not demanding legislation, just a realization by leaders that Greater Cleveland continues to be a choice of last resort for a vast majority of Americans who have choice between two places to work and live. And, maybe, just maybe, there are ways things can be done better. That there is probably an example or two that can be emulated from somewhere else.

 

Ok but what does that mean in concrete terms?  Should we have the mayors of greater Cleveland stand on Public Square and read a statement that Cleveland is a place of last resort?  Issue a series of press releases that state that Cleveland remains in the economic doldrums?  Wear dunce caps? (that may actually be somewhat satisfying)

I'm not demanding legislation, just a realization by leaders that Greater Cleveland continues to be a choice of last resort for a vast majority of Americans who have choice between two places to work and live. And, maybe, just maybe, there are ways things can be done better. That there is probably an example or two that can be emulated from somewhere else.

 

Ok but what does that mean in concrete terms?  Should we have the mayors of greater Cleveland stand on Public Square and read a statement that Cleveland is a place of last resort?  Issue a series of press releases that state that Cleveland remains in the economic doldrums?  Wear dunce caps? (that may actually be somewhat satisfying)

 

Or we can hide behind CSU studies using incorrect labor data to pretend Cleveland is doing better than Minneapolis. Being honest, some are already wearing the dunce caps.

 

I don't get why having an realistic discussion about the local economy would be so hard.

 

 

^We here?

^We here?

 

No. I'm talking about CSU releasing a study without double checking the figures with the folks at the BLS. Everyone is then misinformed and it allows politicians and leaders to hide behind these studies as a fact that everything is OK.

^Does that matter? I agree with you that it was incredibly sloppy report, but do you really think the problem is that local government and industry leaders read local hype pieces so aren't motivated to somehow improve things?

How has Richey Piiparinen and CSU somehow become the bogeyman in all of this?

^Does that matter? I agree with you that it was incredibly sloppy report, but do you really think the problem is that local government and industry leaders read local hype pieces so aren't motivated to somehow improve things?

 

Yes. It shows as Greater Cleveland continues to fade away.

How has Richey Piiparinen and CSU somehow become the bogeyman in all of this?

 

It's not just this study. Others are coming out of CSU about how the area is transforming itself. Yet with all that "transformation" Cleveland is still at the bottom of the American economic ladder and last year Cleveland accelerated downward while the rest of the nation went the other way.

 

But this is broader than CSU. It's a community thing. It's hard to accept that Cleveland may be struggling on a greater scale than people want to admit.

Is it possible that area is changing but at the same time stagnant? Thats what I was getting at in my post. Some numbers suggests we are attracting younger, more educated people but still losing people. Isn't that what should happen when you are transitioning from a manufacturing based  economy? Also, I never expected downtown's momentum to change change the region's trajectory, but it's an important piece of eventually attracting people and jobs.

But this is broader than CSU. It's hard to accept that Cleveland may be struggling on a greater scale than people want to admit.

 

I see this line of criticism a lot.  But as I posed to you above...what does that mean in concrete action?  Should the people of Cleveland all pledge an oath of struggle?  Never say anything is good because the statistics are bad in the aggregate?  Burn themselves on Public Square?

 

You dodged my question above but I actually want to know what you think would be adequate action for politicians and the people of Cleveland to show that they "accept that Cleveland may be struggling on a greater scale than (they) want to admit."

Is it possible that area is changing but at the same time stagnant? Thats what I was getting at in my post. Some numbers suggests we are attracting younger, more educated people but still losing people. Isn't that what should happen when you are transitioning from a manufacturing based  economy? Also, I never expected downtown's momentum to change change the region's trajectory, but it's an important piece of eventually attracting people and jobs.

 

So when does this happen? It's been 50 years! Other manufacturing cities have completely transformed in that time. Others are transitioning and growing. Is it wrong to look at more successful examples of growth? There are many.

 

 

Maybe Cleveland is an outlier because our economy was so heavily reliant of manufacturing for the past 100 years. The same can be said with Pittsburgh, Detroit and Buffalo. (Pittsburgh's MSA dropped about 5k).  I think some of us are too young to remember how many manufacturing jobs used to be here. It is mind boggling to think how many manufacturing jobs here 40, 50, 60 years ago. My Dad worked at J&L in the 70s. When he started there were 6,000 people employed there. When he retired from Mittal in 2011 (same mill, different name) less than 1500 worked there. That’s just one factory. There were hundreds more mills and factories like that all over Northeast Ohio that used to employ thousands of people. For the most part, they’re all gone. In my opinion, our regional demographics don't help job growth/attraction as we have less college graduates than the national average because we were so heavily reliant on manufacturing for long. Some companies in the region are having a hard time finding talent because of this. However, this has been slowing changing as we're creeping slowly towards the national average. Also, some of the numbers suggests we are attracting younger, more educated people (obviously not enough). The transition to a knowledge/service based economy has been painfully slow and frustrating but not unexpected considering we were one of the most industrialized regions in the world at one point.  I do agree our leaders can and should be doing more.

You are exactly right.  Just drive down woodland, e 93rd, kinsman and Union.  So many huge vacant lots that once housed buildings that supported thousands of jobs.  My dad grew up at Lamontier and Woodhill, and always talks about how when you turned 18, you could walk those streets and find a career that would last your lifetime.  Look at e 79th.  There's two rapid stations on that street within a half mile of each other near Kinsman.  There were thousands of people that worked along that little stretch up through the mid 70s, hence the stations.

We need to get back to advanced manufacturing in Cleveland.  IMHO, it's the only hope we have in reviving the region. Degreed and non degreed people could raise families off those jobs.

 

It's not going to happen within the city limits or inner ring.  Not on any large scale, unless and until the CERCLA laws are radically revised.  It's too risky to build on a brownfield.  Look what happened to Taylor Chair, who went out of business after almost 200 years trying to do the right thing.

 

I would suggest a change to the law saying if you build within a are with over 150% of the national average unemployment rate, hire at least 50% of your people from that area, and obtain ISO 14000 certification within three years, you are completely exempt from any potential inherited environmental liability.    Unfortunately, CERCLA has become a jobs program for consultants and the like, so I don't see this happening soon.

But this is broader than CSU. It's hard to accept that Cleveland may be struggling on a greater scale than people want to admit.

 

I see this line of criticism a lot.  But as I posed to you above...what does that mean in concrete action?  Should the people of Cleveland all pledge an oath of struggle?  Never say anything is good because the statistics are bad in the aggregate?  Burn themselves on Public Square?

 

You dodged my question above but I actually want to know what you think would be adequate action for politicians and the people of Cleveland to show that they "accept that Cleveland may be struggling on a greater scale than (they) want to admit."

 

This is silly. I'm dodging nothing, just expressing frustration at a place that fades away and the lack of vision to actually fix the problem. Certainly there are many, many things to be proud of about Cleveland but there is also a need to see what others are doing in other places to make Cleveland better. It such a great place and has so much potential but it's never going to realize it until joins the growth of the rest of the country. it is what it is.

Is it possible that area is changing but at the same time stagnant? Thats what I was getting at in my post. Some numbers suggests we are attracting younger, more educated people but still losing people. Isn't that what should happen when you are transitioning from a manufacturing based  economy? Also, I never expected downtown's momentum to change change the region's trajectory, but it's an important piece of eventually attracting people and jobs.

 

So when does this happen? It's been 50 years! Other manufacturing cities have completely transformed in that time. Others are transitioning and growing. Is it wrong to look at more successful examples of growth? There are many.

 

 

 

Which other manufacturing cities?  Pittsburgh, Detroit, Buffalo and Cleveland are all in the same boat. 

^By national standards, Cinci and even Columbus are in our boat too, even if they'd prefer to think otherwise. Once you look past the fairly minor intra-regional shifts, the entire Great Lakes region is pretty stagnant.

Is it possible that area is changing but at the same time stagnant? Thats what I was getting at in my post. Some numbers suggests we are attracting younger, more educated people but still losing people. Isn't that what should happen when you are transitioning from a manufacturing based  economy? Also, I never expected downtown's momentum to change change the region's trajectory, but it's an important piece of eventually attracting people and jobs.

 

So when does this happen? It's been 50 years! Other manufacturing cities have completely transformed in that time. Others are transitioning and growing. Is it wrong to look at more successful examples of growth? There are many.

 

 

 

Which other manufacturing cities?  Pittsburgh, Detroit, Buffalo and Cleveland are all in the same boat. 

 

Manufacturing was not just in those four cities.

 

Baltimore, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Boston, Chicago, Cincinnati, North Jersey, Philadelphia, Birmingham, Manchester. Hell, Toronto.

^By national standards, Cinci and even Columbus are in our boat too, even if they'd prefer to think otherwise. Once you look past the fairly minor intra-regional shifts, the entire Great Lakes region is pretty stagnant.

 

Columbus and Cincinnati are expanding. I'd settle for that as a start for Cleveland.

^In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king, I suppose.

 

[if not clear to all readers, this common expression is not an insult. It means a particular comparison is only possible given the particular context, not the intrinsic attributes of things being compared. Cinci's effectively zero population growth is also pathetic in the scheme of things, even if very slightly better than Cleveland's.]

^In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king, I suppose.

 

Greater Cleveland is doing awesome, I forgot. Carry on.

^In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king, I suppose.

 

Greater Cleveland is doing awesome, I forgot. Carry on.

 

Straw man alert!

It's no coincidence the Rust Belt cities are struggling. Pittsburgh (lost 5k in the MSA) may be ahead due to the fact they lost all their manufacturing jobs in relatively short time whereas we've been dying a slow death in terms of manufacturing for the last 30 years. Isn't the region transitioning? We have a higher percentage of college graduates in the region. The healthcare industry has been adding jobs and Cleveland is considered a strong healthcare town. Our largest employer are healthcare providers. What's happening downtown, University Circle and the near West Side is evidence of change. This wasn't even a possibility 10 years ago. Obviously it's not fast enough, but it's not like we haven't seen signs of a transitioning local economy. You can't expect to move from a heavy manufacturing town to a knowledge based one in a decade. I know what you are saying about the "fluff" pieces but some of those numbers suggest a transitioning economy. Again, our leaders at the local and state level can do more.

^In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king, I suppose.

 

Greater Cleveland is doing awesome, I forgot. Carry on.

 

Straw man alert!

 

You win, I lose. Meanwhile Greater Cleveland bleeds jobs and people. No straw man there.

It's no coincidence the Rust Belt cities are struggling. Pittsburgh (lost 5k in the MSA) may be ahead due to the fact they lost all their manufacturing jobs in relatively short time whereas we've been dying a slow death in terms of manufacturing for the last 30 years. Isn't the region transitioning? We have a higher percentage of college graduates in the region. The healthcare industry has been adding jobs and Cleveland is considered a strong healthcare town. Our largest employer are healthcare providers. What's happening downtown, University Circle and the near West Side is evidence of change. This wasn't even a possibility 10 years ago. Obviously it's not fast enough, but it's not like we haven't seen signs of a transitioning local economy. You can't expect to move from a heavy manufacturing town to a knowledge based one in a decade. I know what you are saying about the "fluff" pieces but some of those numbers suggest a transitioning economy. Again, our leaders at the local and state level can do more.

 

I agree with what you are saying but there were more jobs and people in Greater Cleveland 10 years ago. Not quite sure what's possible now that wasn't possible then. How many people and jobs have to leave to have a real transformation?

^In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king, I suppose.

 

Greater Cleveland is doing awesome, I forgot. Carry on.

 

Straw man alert!

 

You win, I lose. Meanwhile Greater Cleveland bleeds jobs and people. No straw man there.

 

How is the region bleeding jobs? 

 

Employment in Northeast Ohio took a slight dip in January, with a loss of 650 jobs from December to January. That represents a loss of 0.06% of the region’s jobs, according to the Ahola Crain’s Employment (ACE) Report, with the number employed dropping to 1.16 million.

 

That January number, however, is a gain of 1,244 jobs, or 0.11%, from the number of people employed in the region in January 2015.

 

 

http://www.kleinhenzassociates.com/uncategorized/ace-report-region-loses-650-jobs-in-january-but-year-over-year-employment-is-up-slightly/