December 12, 20213 yr 1 hour ago, Clefan14 said: ^ to piggyback off this… investment into the city’s east side outside of UC is so desperately needed. To keep the residents already there is so crucial and overlooked. Hope Bibb, his team, and others can pick up the chaos left from Frank. You can't force development either though. Work with your strong points. Continue to push for development around UC and continue to push outward.
December 12, 20213 yr As noted above development was highly incentivized in the 1950-1970 time which led to this issue. The same should be done to reverse the problem.
December 12, 20213 yr 10 hours ago, KFM44107 said: You can't force development either though. Work with your strong points. Continue to push for development around UC and continue to push outward. But you can encourage investment and reinvestment in certain locations. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 12, 20213 yr 2 hours ago, KJP said: But you can encourage investment and reinvestment in certain locations. For sure. I guess what I'm saying is most of my eggs would be helping expand from an already hot location.
December 12, 20213 yr 59 minutes ago, KFM44107 said: For sure. I guess what I'm saying is most of my eggs would be helping expand from an already hot location. The only issue with that is how long does it take that UC or downtown or Tremont hotness to reach Mount Pleasant, Lee-Harvard, or Collinwood? You have to make investments where they make sense, so I get focusing on the hot areas, but it is the government for the City of Cleveland and they can't completely abandon non hot areas.
December 12, 20213 yr The 15 year tax abatement could be retooled to sections of the city which are struggling; with new-builds now selling for over half-a-mil in some sections, maybe it’s time to rethink the tax abatement and where it could be concentrated rather than just blanketed across the city. Collinwood had the Railyards as a major employer, along with the Coit Rd. GE plant which closed in the early 80s. I don’t know how many people the Railyards employ now, but it’s much less now than when the neighborhood first developed. Those large employers which helped keep the neighborhood stable are no longer there or are much smaller than they were. The key to both North and South Collinwood, Mt. Pleasant, and Kinsman in stopping decline and growing again will be in utilizing neighborhood assets and enhancing connections to and in between employment centers. Euclid Beach may be the most underutilized asset Cleveland has, though North Collinwood also has Waterloo and E. 185, which is still a viable neighborhood commercial corridor (and yeah I’m biased 🙂). Mt Pleasant has Zelma George and Luke Easter- which is a great urban park with one of the best skyline views in the city. Kinsman has a huge amount of now open land and is as close to a blank slate as you can get for an urban neighborhood. Urban planning could help make these areas viable again. The problem for Cleveland is that planning in the past only did so much as the decline continued, and planning hasn't worked much in reverse in stopping decline. Growing employment centers in downtown and University Circle has helped some of the surrounding neighborhoods which directly touch them. Making connections to the assets other neighborhoods in the city have and connecting them to employment centers could help them in the future.
January 25, 20223 yr https://www.hireahelper.com/moving-statistics/migration-report/ These numbers are quite disappointing, but I also don't believe them. Austin had more people move out than in? Yeah, no. Something is wrong with this data set.
January 25, 20223 yr @LlamaLawyerIts a bit inappropriate as it suggests that their business is equally popular or used in both 2020 and 2021 in all cities and states in the country. "Moving data calculated from over 90,000 moves serviced in 2021 via HireAHelper.com and its affiliates contrasted against 2020 data." "MOVED OUT: By ratio 1. San Jose, CA -67.6% 8. Cleveland, OH -50.6%" I never even heard of "Hireahelper.com".
January 25, 20223 yr @Pugu Good point. FWIW, Zillow (which I would trust much more than some random mover) says that Cleveland is one of the three markets with the lowest listing days per home (See the bottom of this article https://www.zillow.com/research/zillow-2022-hottest-markets-tampa-30413/ ). That is a good sign and seems entirely inconsistent with move outs exceeding move ins by 50%.
January 25, 20223 yr Yea, never trust those articles from random moving companies. They are just clickbait to get their name out there.
January 25, 20223 yr Also, their top net "moved in" city is The Villages, which is probably right. No one moves out of The Villages. They die there.
January 25, 20223 yr 8 minutes ago, DEPACincy said: Also, their top net "moved in" city is The Villages, which is probably right. No one moves out of The Villages. They die there. I would imagine so. Because just looking at Google images of the extensive sprawled out subdivisions makes me question how that is desirable living whatsoever.
January 27, 20223 yr I see Cleveland ranks 35th now in terms of most populous metro areas. Why isn’t Akron counted in the Cleveland metro area? Seattle-Tacoma is an MSA (metropolitan statistical area) even though the two cities are 33 miles apart. Cleveland- Akron are 39 miles apart - does that extra 6 miles disqualify CLE-Akron? Where exactly is the cutoff in terms of mileage or is it another reason? They count Elyria in Cleveland metro - seems like Akron should be part of it. Then, we’d rank in the top 15 or 20.
January 27, 20223 yr 13 minutes ago, CleveFan said: I see Cleveland ranks 35th now in terms of most populous metro areas. Why isn’t Akron counted in the Cleveland metro area? Seattle-Tacoma is an MSA (metropolitan statistical area) even though the two cities are 33 miles apart. Cleveland- Akron are 39 miles apart - does that extra 6 miles disqualify CLE-Akron? Where exactly is the cutoff in terms of mileage or is it another reason? They count Elyria in Cleveland metro - seems like Akron should be part of it. Then, we’d rank in the top 15 or 20. Its not about distance. Anyway, Akron (and Summit and Portage counties) should very much be part of the Cleveland MSA. Akron fights it, which brings down Cleveland, and hurts Akron in the process, but they're too pride-filled to understand that.
January 27, 20223 yr If the region were growing, it wouldn't matter. Good news is the region did grow by 11,000 in population during the last census- even with the drop in jobs within the region in the last *twenty* years. The region still is not back to the amount of people employed pre-NAFTA. However, another piece of good news is that we're on the way. Manufacturing is now the FOURTH largest sector of the regional economy. Rust-belt? Nope. Medical-belt, or Water-belt? Sure thing.
January 27, 20223 yr 3 hours ago, Oldmanladyluck said: Good news is the region did grow by 11,000 in population during the last census- even with the drop in jobs within the region in the last *twenty* years. How are you defining "region"? Seems like the Cleveland-Elyria MSA continues to lose population. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CVLPOP
January 27, 20223 yr 19 minutes ago, Foraker said: How are you defining "region"? Seems like the Cleveland-Elyria MSA continues to lose population. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CVLPOP The count I mentioned is in the Census thread- specifically the Cleveland MSA, not the CSA or not including Akron and Canton. The tie to this thread is with growing jobs will come growing population. When the population for the region last grew during the 2000 census by about 2%, the employment for the regioon grew by roughly 100,000 jobs between 1990 and 2000. In fact, that may be a good metric to go by for the region; 100,000 jobs would equal roughly 2% growth in population. Edited January 27, 20223 yr by Oldmanladyluck
January 28, 20223 yr 16 hours ago, Oldmanladyluck said: The tie to this thread is with growing jobs will come growing population. When the population for the region last grew during the 2000 census by about 2%, the employment for the regioon grew by roughly 100,000 jobs between 1990 and 2000. We’re entering an interesting economic time where I think the region stands to benefit even without any radical change in available jobs. The first factor is remote work, which lets people live wherever they want. The next factor is full employment, which means that moreso than any time in recent history you can get a decent job most anywhere you go. Over the last couple years, we’ve been hearing a lot about millennial boomerangs coming to Cleveland. I expect that trend to continue. The #1 reason people choose where to live is a job; the #2 reason is family. Hopefully as the first reason becomes less constraining, a lot of the folks who left their Cleveland family for jobs come back for family. It certainly seems reasonable to think cities that have lost a lot of population will benefit most from these job trends.
January 28, 20223 yr On 1/27/2022 at 11:18 AM, CleveFan said: I see Cleveland ranks 35th now in terms of most populous metro areas. Why isn’t Akron counted in the Cleveland metro area? Seattle-Tacoma is an MSA (metropolitan statistical area) even though the two cities are 33 miles apart. Cleveland- Akron are 39 miles apart - does that extra 6 miles disqualify CLE-Akron? Where exactly is the cutoff in terms of mileage or is it another reason? They count Elyria in Cleveland metro - seems like Akron should be part of it. Then, we’d rank in the top 15 or 20. It's about commuting patterns. There's not enough commuting exchange between Cuyahoga and Summit Counties.
January 28, 20223 yr 22 hours ago, Foraker said: How are you defining "region"? Seems like the Cleveland-Elyria MSA continues to lose population. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CVLPOP The population estimates program data was way off. The actual decennial census showed growth. 2010 Cleveland MSA = 2,077,240 2020 Cleveland MSA = 2,088,251
January 28, 20223 yr 1 hour ago, freefourur said: ^ I'd probably call that stable. No way man, that's GROWTH! Whether 0.5% or 18.1%---as long as its not zero or negative, its growth! But in all seriousness, we should look at the full seven county area--not just five counties. Lots of people from Cuyahoga have moved to Summit and Portage counties as well---and are still working in Cuyahoga. Would like see the change in population 2010 vs 2020 of our full metro area (not "MSA" area).
January 28, 20223 yr 38 minutes ago, Pugu said: No way man, that's GROWTH! Whether 0.5% or 18.1%---as long as its not zero or negative, its growth! But in all seriousness, we should look at the full seven county area--not just five counties. Lots of people from Cuyahoga have moved to Summit and Portage counties as well---and are still working in Cuyahoga. Would like see the change in population 2010 vs 2020 of our full metro area (not "MSA" area). CSA grew .10%. Second slowest growth in the top 30 outside of Pittsburgh CSA which lost a little population.
January 28, 20223 yr Wait, I thought Pittsburgh was 20 years ahead of us? I hear that all the time! Does that mean that in 20 years we'll be losing population again?
January 28, 20223 yr 4 hours ago, DEPACincy said: It's about commuting patterns. There's not enough commuting exchange between Cuyahoga and Summit Counties. They are probably counting commuting wrong then. Not that many people commute into the CBDs from the other county, but a lot of people might work in Solon and live in Macedonia, or vice versa. Truth is the metro areas blended together long ago, there's a band of suburbs in northern Summit and to some degree southern Cuyahoga that doesn't fully identify with either city.
January 29, 20223 yr On 1/27/2022 at 11:33 AM, Pugu said: Its not about distance. Anyway, Akron (and Summit and Portage counties) should very much be part of the Cleveland MSA. Akron fights it, which brings down Cleveland, and hurts Akron in the process, but they're too pride-filled to understand that. As a native Akronite, I never understood this. The Akron area clearly “bleeds” over into Medina County in the form of Wadsworth and Sharon Township, which are as much part of Greater Akron as Kent or Brimfield in Portage County. Yet the former are lumped into the Cleveland MSA along with the rest of Medina County, while the latter are included in what constitutes the Akron MSA? Doesn’t make any sense to me at all. Also, I feel similarly about Twinsburg and Northfield. These are outer-ring Cleveland burbs, much more than they are Akron ones, in my experience. This may seem subjective, but the only thing directly tying them to Akron is the fact that they are within the Summit County borders. Socially and economically, they look north to Cleveland. To my point, however, clearly, there needs to be some recognition that Cleveland and Akron—and Canton as well—are now so intertwined that the county lines the MSAs are based upon don’t actually delineate the actual metropolitan boundaries in a meaningful way now, if they ever actually did. As for Akron not wanting to give up its statistical independence, Akron is clearly a “captured satellite” city at this point, based upon Pete Saunders’ framework. It’s evident when you look and see that the city and several of its key businesses and institutions are no longer entities independent of parent entities in Cleveland or another large city. Huntington swallowing FirstMerit and the Cleveland Clinic taking control of Akron General (and now more recently Mercy Hospital in Canton) come to mind. Plus, it isn’t like there are a ton of up and coming newer independents. Even local media is mostly based out of Cleveland and has been for years.
January 29, 20223 yr The growth of the Cleveland MSA right now may only be measured in positive tenths of a percent, but I absolutely celebrate this. We, as a region, had fallen completely down the rabbit hole over several decades and we have had to fight so hard and expend so much energy just to climb back out. We've had to fight the headwinds of recessions, pandemics, and corrupt "leadership" too. The retooling of our economy is now well underway and continues to gain momentum. I feel more optimistic now than I ever have! I believe we have now reached a stable platform where growth can and is occurring. The good is now outweighing the bad clearly....it's been a long long time since we've been able to say that.
January 29, 20223 yr 2 hours ago, E Rocc said: They are probably counting commuting wrong then. Not that many people commute into the CBDs from the other county, but a lot of people might work in Solon and live in Macedonia, or vice versa. Truth is the metro areas blended together long ago, there's a band of suburbs in northern Summit and to some degree southern Cuyahoga that doesn't fully identify with either city. Lol no they are not. It's county exchange, but CBD. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean the data is wrong.
January 29, 20223 yr 1 hour ago, NEOBuckeye said: As a native Akronite, I never understood this. The Akron area clearly “bleeds” over into Medina County in the form of Wadsworth and Sharon Township, which are as much part of Greater Akron as Kent or Brimfield in Portage County. Yet the former are lumped into the Cleveland MSA along with the rest of Medina County, while the latter are included in what constitutes the Akron MSA? Doesn’t make any sense to me at all. Also, I feel similarly about Twinsburg and Northfield. These are outer-ring Cleveland burbs, much more than they are Akron ones, in my experience. This may seem subjective, but the only thing directly tying them to Akron is the fact that they are within the Summit County borders. Socially and economically, they look north to Cleveland. To my point, however, clearly, there needs to be some recognition that Cleveland and Akron—and Canton as well—are now so intertwined that the county lines the MSAs are based upon don’t actually delineate the actual metropolitan boundaries in a meaningful way now, if they ever actually did. As for Akron not wanting to give up its statistical independence, Akron is clearly a “captured satellite” city at this point, based upon Pete Saunders’ framework. It’s evident when you look and see that the city and several of its key businesses and institutions are no longer entities independent of parent entities in Cleveland or another large city. Huntington swallowing FirstMerit and the Cleveland Clinic taking control of Akron General (and now more recently Mercy Hospital in Canton) come to mind. Plus, it isn’t like there are a ton of up and coming newer independents. Even local media is mostly based out of Cleveland and has been for years. This problem is not unique. Every MSA on the east coast bleeds into one another. Dayton suburbs like Springboro are actually in the Cincinnati MSA. We use county lines because it is clean and easy to compare for statistical purposes. No other reason.
January 29, 20223 yr 15 hours ago, DEPACincy said: This problem is not unique. Every MSA on the east coast bleeds into one another. Dayton suburbs like Springboro are actually in the Cincinnati MSA. We use county lines because it is clean and easy to compare for statistical purposes. No other reason. This is why I prefer census defined urban areas for measuring city size. It's the least arbitrary method. I'll be interested to see when the numbers are updated for the most recent census. (A quick search indicates they will be modifying the criteria somewhat). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_areas
January 31, 20223 yr On 1/28/2022 at 8:44 PM, DEPACincy said: This problem is not unique. Every MSA on the east coast bleeds into one another. Dayton suburbs like Springboro are actually in the Cincinnati MSA. We use county lines because it is clean and easy to compare for statistical purposes. No other reason. I can understand the why behind this approach, but it does seem arbitrary and too narrowly focused, at least as far as NE Ohio is concerned. A lot of organic relationships are being ignored here for the sake of expediency and Akron's desire to maintain an identity independent of social & economic integration into Cleveland that is just no longer reality. Maybe an Akron MSA would work if we could pick up the Akron area and overlay it 30 minutes south onto Canton, putting it far enough outside of Cleveland's influence to still stand on its own. As things stand however, Canton should really be considered part of Akron's MSA at the very least.
February 1, 20223 yr 7 hours ago, NEOBuckeye said: I can understand the why behind this approach, but it does seem arbitrary and too narrowly focused, at least as far as NE Ohio is concerned. A lot of organic relationships are being ignored here for the sake of expediency and Akron's desire to maintain an identity independent of social & economic integration into Cleveland that is just no longer reality. Maybe an Akron MSA would work if we could pick up the Akron area and overlay it 30 minutes south onto Canton, putting it far enough outside of Cleveland's influence to still stand on its own. As things stand however, Canton should really be considered part of Akron's MSA at the very least. I think the point here is that it's not arbitrary. They apply the same definition universally. It doesn't matter what people in Cleveland and Akron want. To that point, it doesn't matter what people in Cincinnati and Dayton want. Or what people in Washington and Baltimore want.
February 1, 20223 yr 9 hours ago, NEOBuckeye said: I can understand the why behind this approach, but it does seem arbitrary and too narrowly focused, at least as far as NE Ohio is concerned. A lot of organic relationships are being ignored here for the sake of expediency and Akron's desire to maintain an identity independent of social & economic integration into Cleveland that is just no longer reality. Maybe an Akron MSA would work if we could pick up the Akron area and overlay it 30 minutes south onto Canton, putting it far enough outside of Cleveland's influence to still stand on its own. As things stand however, Canton should really be considered part of Akron's MSA at the very least. There is a push by Akron to create an Akron-Canton MSA, but again there a requirements for that to happen, not only political will. It, in my opinion would make sense to do that, if Cleveland, with its amenities and economy weren't also nearby and Akron and Canton were off by themselves somewhere in another corner of the state. The Cleveland-Akron-Canton CSA, created by meeting commuting pattern thresholds, I'm some ways recognizes the connection all three MSAs have with each other. It's just not marketed at all by any of the local chambers of commerce or really anyone else. People who aren't unto this kind of stuff think Cleveland is Cleveland and Akron is Akron and so on. Some people get mad if you live in Cleveland Heights and say you live in Cleveland! Edited February 1, 20223 yr by Mov2Ohio
February 1, 20223 yr I’ve only been a part of this forum for like three years and this is probably at least the 5th time this has been debated. Always the same comments and arguments. If this is not beating a dead horse then I don’t know what is.
February 1, 20223 yr To continue to beat the dead horse, there are over 1 million jobs in the Cleveland MSA. Only about 80k of those are filled by folks living in the Akron MSA. While 60k live in Cleveland MSA and commute to Akron MSA. That's just really not that much exchange. For comparison 212k live in the Baltimore MSA and commute to the Washington, DC MSA.
February 1, 20223 yr 14 hours ago, cle_guy90 said: at least the 5th time this has been debated 5 times seems low to me
February 1, 20223 yr 1 hour ago, DEPACincy said: To continue to beat the dead horse, there are over 1 million jobs in the Cleveland MSA. Only about 80k of those are filled by folks living in the Akron MSA. While 60k live in Cleveland MSA and commute to Akron MSA. That's just really not that much exchange. For comparison 212k live in the Baltimore MSA and commute to the Washington, DC MSA. I'm not sure what conclusion you're drawing here. There are apparently 3,467,200 jobs in the DC area https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.wa.htm. If 212,000 of them are filled by Baltimore commuters then that's ~6.11%. Using the numbers you provided, 8% of Cleveland's jobs are filled by Akron. Doesn't that mean that Akron is more connected to Cleveland than Baltimore is to Washington?
April 7, 20223 yr When the Census estimates came out I saw Cleveland’s Black population dropped to 48.5%, according to this the population is 51.5%. Did the black population drop at a lower number than estimated or did the other demographics grow slower than previously counted? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
April 7, 20223 yr 2 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said: When the Census estimates came out I saw Cleveland’s Black population dropped to 48.5%, according to this the population is 51.5%. Did the black population drop at a lower number than estimated or did the other demographics grow slower than previously counted? The census undercounted minority populations, which is not unusual. There may be adjustments. More detailed reviews are ongoing. Quote The results show that the 2020 Census undercounted the Black or African American population, the American Indian or Alaska Native population living on a reservation, the Hispanic or Latino population, and people who reported being of Some Other Race. https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2022/2020-census-estimates-of-undercount-and-overcount.html This is a good roundup of some of the issues that led to the undercount -- antiquated system of counting, COVID, shortened counting period, etc. https://www.npr.org/2022/03/10/1083732104/2020-census-accuracy-undercount-overcount-data-quality
April 8, 20223 yr https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2022/2020-census-estimates-of-undercount-and-overcount.html This is a good roundup of some of the issues that led to the undercount -- antiquated system of counting, COVID, shortened counting period, etc. https://www.npr.org/2022/03/10/1083732104/2020-census-accuracy-undercount-overcount-data-qualityOkay I understand. So with the new number released the Black population only dropped 0.2% instead of 3% which means that if the Hispanic population (which already grew) has a decent number added we could be looking at a stagnant population or very slight growth? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
April 19, 20223 yr The Cleveland Business Journal has an article that is centered on University Circle's shortage of developable land but include a useful "suspicions comfirmed" chart of population and housing changes from the 2010 to 2020 census numbers. The city lost 24.191 people but only 8,613 housing units, another telltale of shrinking family size being the prime mover of population loss. That's 1.87 people per housing unit, down from 1.91 in 2010.. https://www.bizjournals.com/cleveland/news/2022/04/18/university-circle-inc-talks-development.html Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
April 19, 20223 yr 49 minutes ago, Dougal said: The Cleveland Business Journal has an article that is centered on University Circle's shortage of developable land but include a useful "suspicions comfirmed" chart of population and housing changes from the 2010 to 2020 census numbers. The city lost 24.191 people but only 8,613 housing units, another telltale of shrinking family size being the prime mover of population loss. That's 1.87 people per housing unit, down from 1.91 in 2010.. https://www.bizjournals.com/cleveland/news/2022/04/18/university-circle-inc-talks-development.html Yet planning commission, in its ultimate wisdom, slams a dense pedestrian oriented development on the fringes of University Circle without even taking the time to actually let the developer present the project, because it will be necessary to demo 6 dilapidated, architecturally insignificant and isolated row houses. (Its been three weeks...I better let it go or I am going to bust a blood vessel. Maybe the developer can come up with a solution to appease Planning Commission. That is if the members can ever find the time to meet again😏)
April 19, 20223 yr Does anyone have an age distribution chart to compare 2010 to 2020? I have to imagine we have a higher percentage of 18-35 year olds now compared to 2010, which would partly explain the smaller household sizes (although I recognize nationwide trends). If there are more 18-35 year olds, that suggests a population of young people who will have kids and just haven't yet.
April 19, 20223 yr 50 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said: Does anyone have an age distribution chart to compare 2010 to 2020? I have to imagine we have a higher percentage of 18-35 year olds now compared to 2010, which would partly explain the smaller household sizes (although I recognize nationwide trends). If there are more 18-35 year olds, that suggests a population of young people who will have kids and just haven't yet. For the city 2020 ACS 5-Year data places the median age at 36.3. For 2010 it was 36.2. 2010 20-34 Year Olds: 20.1% 2020 20-34 Year Olds: 23.8% 2010 65+: 12.5% 2020 65+: 14.3% So more youngs, but also more olds.
April 19, 20223 yr 35 minutes ago, DEPACincy said: For the city 2020 ACS 5-Year data places the median age at 36.3. For 2010 it was 36.2. 2010 20-34 Year Olds: 20.1% 2020 20-34 Year Olds: 23.8% 2010 65+: 12.5% 2020 65+: 14.3% So more youngs, but also more olds. Thank you so much. This is way better than I expected actually. I did some math, and in absolute numbers we have: 2010 age 20-34: 79,760 2020 age 20-34: 88,685 2010 age 65+: 49,602 2020 age 65+: 53,285 So we actually have 9,000 MORE 20-34 year olds in Cleveland proper now than in 2010. That's gotta be primarily a result of in-migration more so than aging into the group given how mobile 20-34 year olds are and the size of the change. For the 65+ on the other hand, I'm guessing the reason for the change may simply be people getting older and moving to Florida at a lower rate.
April 19, 20223 yr 3 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said: Thank you so much. This is way better than I expected actually. I did some math, and in absolute numbers we have: 2010 age 20-34: 79,760 2020 age 20-34: 88,685 2010 age 65+: 49,602 2020 age 65+: 53,285 So we actually have 9,000 MORE 20-34 year olds in Cleveland proper now than in 2010. That's gotta be primarily a result of in-migration more so than aging into the group given how mobile 20-34 year olds are and the size of the change. For the 65+ on the other hand, I'm guessing the reason for the change may simply be people getting older and moving to Florida at a lower rate. Probably also getting empty-nesters moving downtown, to UC and a few other hot city neighborhoods where they can downsize from their suburban homesteads. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 19, 20223 yr We recently sold our old condo in Ohio City to empty nesters. In fact, the buyer's friends own condos downtown solely for the weekends and big events, and live in Chardon during the week
Create an account or sign in to comment