August 21, 200717 yr Between the PD and WTAM 1100 they're both doing their best to scare whoever they can away from Cleveland. I have been listening on the commute home to the Mark "Munch" Bishop show on AM 850 in the run up to Browns season, Munch is a great guy for Cleveland he loves the city and takes every chance to talk up the city. \ Triv makes me vomit in my throat...
August 21, 200717 yr WTAM "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 21, 200717 yr any chance of getting remotely on subject, we already have the cleveland area media discussion thread for you guys to vent away? http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=13110.0
August 24, 200717 yr What, you mean scaring people out of the region entirely isn't helping there newspaper circulation? i never understood that technique, how does that help the "cleveland population trends"
August 27, 200717 yr Cleveland Braces For Census' Latest Poverty Rankings 9:30 pm EDT August 26, 2007 NEWSNET5 CLEVELAND -- Almost hidden within the city that last year ranked as the nation's most impoverished is a village of 1,400 people, where incomes of $100,000 or more are common and homes are occasionally placed on the market for millions. The three mile-long, half mile-wide Bratenahl is incorporated, with its own mayor and police force. So, it's demographic data aren't included in the Census Bureau's poverty rankings for big cities, which for two of the past three years, including last year, pegged Cleveland as number one nationally in poverty rankings among large cities... http://www.newsnet5.com/news/13979598/detail.html?rss=nn5&psp=news
August 27, 200717 yr "Let me put this way. We have some questions about the methodology," he said, pointing out that Cleveland ranked 12th in poverty two years ago. "They have us going from 1-to-12-to-1. It's really irrelevant to us. The fact remains there is poverty. We're working on strategies both economically and educationally to address that." I agree with Frank. Question: Since this is poverty related, can this post and supercelebs be moved to http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=978.0 so that we can stay on topic.
August 28, 200717 yr "Almost hidden within the city that last year ranked as the nation's most impoverished is a village of 1,400 people, where incomes of $100,000 or more are common and homes are occasionally placed on the market for millions. The three mile-long, half mile-wide Bratenahl is incorporated, with its own mayor and police force. So, it's demographic data aren't included in the Census Bureau's poverty rankings for big cities, which for two of the past three years, including last year, pegged Cleveland as number one nationally in poverty rankings among large cities. The next annual poverty ranking -- part of the Bureau's American Community Survey -- is due Tuesday, when Cleveland will find out if it will take another hit to an already tarnished national image. The Census has previously estimated the Cleveland population at about 415,000 in 2005, down from the estimated 478,000 on 2000, with 32.4 percent living below the poverty line. But just a short distance from some of the city's urban blight are Bratenahl's gated mansions, some built 100 years ago by Cleveland industry and shipping magnates. Mixed in near the Lake Erie shoreline are more modern high-rise condos and newly built cluster homes." this segregation, every bit as insidious as what persisted before Brown v. Board of Education, is the single greatest problem that faces every one of Ohio's major cities.
August 28, 200717 yr Whatever the outcome, expect the PD to make the most out of any negativity associated with it.
September 9, 200717 yr As far as our downtown population, I have read that Cleveland was projected at one point to have a downtown population of over 21,000 by 2010. The article is below: http://www.brookings.edu/es/urban/top21fin.pdf Is this something that we are still on track to do? I know the goal would be 25,000 or more to have a 24-hour town. University Circle, with its projects, also expects to have around 20,000 residents by 2010. http://www.uptowncleveland.com/vision/ What is our current downtown population?? Thanks.
September 9, 200717 yr Current downtown population is somewhere around 10,000. There is no way, even if all the projects on the books happen right away, that we will hit 21,000 by 2010. UCircle has to be even farther from that projection of 20,000.
March 20, 200817 yr Time to revive this thread... this news can be looked at from two angles: The first, being that the city is in perpetual decline which can't be stopped. The second, that the region is turning a corner and that we know what we have to do to change things around... Cuyahoga County's population drain now extends to the region Robert L. Smith March 20, 2008 00:09AM Cuyahoga County's long, quiet slide toward becoming something smaller continued last year, and the entire region is now caught in the wake. The U.S. Census Bureau will report today that Cleveland's home county lost another 13,000 people last year, the sharpest population loss of any American county except for one. Only Detroit's Wayne County lost more people in 2007. The exodus from Cuyahoga, now a multiyear trend, is beginning to drag down the eight-county region... http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/03/cuyahoga_countys_population_dr.html Plain Dealer researchers Dave Davis There is a pdf file associated with this article... this computer is acting funny so I can't post it.
March 20, 200817 yr The article likens Cincinnati and Toledo to Cleveland, but then goes on to say that this population exodous may very well be a quest for jobs...as the Cleveland area is losing lots of jobs. The thing here is that the Cincinnati Metro has continued to see positive job growth, and is only second to Columbus in the State of Ohio. Yes Hamilton County has seen better days population wise, but it is a subject that is widely debated and some consider those losses, for HamCo, to be leveling off or possibly even reversing. Overall I think it is a bit premature to draw comparisons between the population trends of Cleveland and Cincinnati...they are two different animals. Neither one is all that great, but they are distinctly different.
March 20, 200817 yr Other urban counties in America are also losing residents, often in surprising numbers. In Fort Lauderdale's Broward County in Florida, soaring home prices and a foreclosure crisis helped to push thousands into cheaper, neighboring counties in 2007. This is inaccurate; most of those that leave Broward leave the state of Florida all together. Miami-Dade is to the south and Palm Beach to the north. Both are more expensive counties than Broward. Also don’t forget one of the biggest reasons why people are leaving South Florida, the hurricanes.
March 20, 200817 yr Other urban counties in America are also losing residents, often in surprising numbers. In Fort Lauderdale's Broward County in Florida, soaring home prices and a foreclosure crisis helped to push thousands into cheaper, neighboring counties in 2007. This is inaccurate; most of those that leave Broward leave the state of Florida all together. Miami-Dade is to the south and Palm Beach to the north. Both are more expensive counties than Broward. Also dont forget one of the biggest reasons why people are leaving South Florida, the hurricanes. I really think it's the weather that drives people out of here, even moreso than the job market, and this supports that. Does anyone know if there is an analysis of WHEN people leave during the year? I never want to leave NE Ohio more than Feb-March every year.
March 20, 200817 yr ^That argument is made a lot...especially down here in Atlanta. While I think people value their climate of a particular area very much...that plays second fiddle to their job (or lack there of). I really don't think droves of people are packing up and moving out of Ohio for nicer weather where they don't even have a job. I think that the jobs/businesses are being attracted to the nicer weather areas because they realize that is highly desireable for their prospective employees. As a result you have the jobs leaving the crappy weather states and the people following those jobs.
March 20, 200817 yr ^That argument is made a lot...especially down here in Atlanta. While I think people value their climate of a particular area very much...that plays second fiddle to their job (or lack there of). I really don't think droves of people are packing up and moving out of Ohio for nicer weather where they don't even have a job. I think that the jobs/businesses are being attracted to the nicer weather areas because they realize that is highly desireable for their prospective employees. As a result you have the jobs leaving the crappy weather states and the people following those jobs. However, not all that glitters is gold. Look at the jobs in Atlanta, there aren't a lot of new "white collar", "tech" or "research" jobs being added. Its turn over service jobs.
March 20, 200817 yr ^True...but entry level jobs are much more readily available down here compared to Cincinnati, and I would say even more so the case with Cleveland.
March 20, 200817 yr I think that the jobs/businesses are being attracted to the nicer weather areas because they realize that is highly desireable for their prospective employees. As a result you have the jobs leaving the crappy weather states and the people following those jobs. I agree that that's probably a big part of it. But I also think that people's perception of the region as a whole has a lot to do with it, too. Also, look at places like Seattle, where it rains literally 2/3 of the year. Some people do leave there because of the weather, but why are companies like Starbucks, CostCo and Amazon.com staring up there? It has to do with more than the weather. Also, according to the article, people aren't leaving for other states as much as they're moving to neighboring counties. People's negativity, I think, in Cleveland has a huge part to do with it. I think, as I've said for quite some time now (not that I'm an economist or anything, but I think my opinions have some validity), that Cleveland needs to do what it can to promote itself as a progressive, forward-thinking place to be, live, and work. This is not the case now. I think it's having a difficult time of breaking out of this blue-collar economy, and until people on all levels (from government to citizenry) do more to take part in moving this region forward, it won't. I personally am not sure if I'm seeing enough out-of-the-box thinking to move this region beyond that. Sure, Cleveland has nice neighborhoods and places to live. But who cares about nice when that's all you have to offer? What more is being done to separate Cleveland from other cities in the global economy? I just don't think enough is happening, personally.
March 20, 200817 yr Also, according to the article, people aren't leaving for other states as much as they're moving to neighboring counties. People's negativity, I think, in Cleveland has a huge part to do with it. jpop(tart) you get TWO gold stars and a cookie today! :clap: They cynical residents, the ass backwards media and no public relations strategy are all part of the problem. Misconceptions are the area and bad reporting go hand in hand with job loss and moves. We never show charts graphs or evidence that the manufacturing job loss has slowed and that white collar, research, technology, medical jobs are rising. It just pisses me off.
March 20, 200817 yr Chocolate chip, thanks. And make it snappy. I'll Fed Ex it up to the BX and a second shipment to North Olmsted or Middleburgh Hts.
March 20, 200817 yr Good analysis of the problem, jpop, but if we aren't stepping into this leadership vaccum you've identified do we really have a right to complain? You use Seattle as an example, but the real leadership that started Starbucks or Microsoft and turned Seattle into the place to be came from there- born and bred. Before them, Seattle was considered a backward, stodgy town. It was after that leadership stepped up that Seattle got the reputation for innovation that it has today.
March 20, 200817 yr While our population trends is alarming, I would argue that that change in mindset, from corporate hierarchy (which I think might be an even more imporant legacy in Cleveland than its blue-collar tradition) to inclusive and progressive, is occurring, albeit slower than many of us would like: - Dedicated bike lanes have increased five fold in Cuyahoga County in the last five years. - Land conservation in Northeast Ohio has increased dramatically in the last two years, thanks in part to the merger of several conservation organizations. - There has been a very public dialogue about lakefront access, including creation of an urban nature preserve at Dike 14 and relocation of the Port Authority to aid lakefront development opportunities. - The Cleveland Metropolitan School District is making slow but steady improvements in educational outcomes and has launched a number of interesting new specialty schools to better serve the needs of a variety of different students with different learning needs. - The city has made its top transportation infrastructure priority conversion of a highway into a moderate-speed boulevard. Really, could we look back even 10 years and say that the city would launch a fight with ODOT to decrease highway access into the city? - Connectivity to the lake, the river and the national park are increasingly showing up in the public dialogue. - The Euclid Corridor Project will shortly be the largest bus-rapid transit corridor in the country. - The community development sector is channelling its resources to strategically bring big projects like Gordon Square and St. Lukes online. - Community organizations are working to leverage our city's exceptional fiberoptic network to increase connectivity between nonprofits, government agencies and the people they serve. - We're largely recognized as being leaders in redevelopment, particularly as relates to land banking and brownfield revitalization strategies. - There has been a dramatic increase in public and foundation investments in economic development the last several years, as indicated by the emergence of The Fund for Our Economic Future, TeamNEO, JumpStart and BioEnterprise. - Cleveland is one of the few cities in the country having really robust conversations about creative reuse of surplus and abandoned space. - The county now has the largest per capita public investment in arts and culture in the country. - Civic support of investing in alternative energy is pretty staggering at the moment. - While it's mainly just conversation right now, there are finally discussions about recruiting and retaining immigrants, students and artists. - Again, while we have a long way to go, Cleveland is leading the state in historic preservation efforts ... 20 projects recently approved for preservation tax credits are taking place within the city of Cleveland ... that's more than half of 37 projects approved statewide. - Even the traditional, old guard "silver bullets" are taking on a progressive flavor; in the early 2000s, the corporate leadership pushed a generic convention center, despite evidence that such centers were failing elsewhere. Today, they've repositioned the discussion to link the convention center to our vibrant medical sector and to attract not only conventions but also medical supply companies into the region. Perhaps most importantly, and something that doesn't generally show up in the Plain Dealer's dour coverage of population trends, we've seen an incredible demographic shift downtown and the Near West Side since the 2000 census. Downtown, Tremont and Ohio City, while they still have a ways to go, have seen a sizable in-migration of residents, and arguably this is an in-migration of some of the most highly educated and progressive residents of Northeast Ohio. At the same time, the city has been able to maintain the stability of some of its more established neighborhoods, like Edgewater, Shaker Square and Old Brooklyn, and is seeing increasing opportunities for in-migration in Asiatown, Midtown and University Circle. Don't get me wrong ... there are definitely a lot of negative trends opposite our advancements. But it seems to me strategies to address these challenges have taken on a considerably more progressive flavor even in the short six years that I've lived here. And it seems like the in-migration into the core of the city is really starting to reposition what the city looks like. To jpop's point, we're still doing FAR too little in the promotions department ... I would not anticipate that many people outside of our peers in the Midwest and the Mid-Atlantic are very aware of this transition; likely, most people still associate us with gritty industry and stuffy boardrooms. And while I hate to overgeneralize, I think a lot of this shift in strategy is occurring because of a generational shift in leadership. For whatever reason, it seems like the Generation Xers and Yers sticking around in Cleveland are far more concerned about progressive planning, inclusiveness and tolerance, and far more likely to want to live in the city proper (yes, even when they have kids), than are our counterparts among the Baby Boomers.
March 20, 200817 yr I wonder if the poor real estate market could actually result in people staying put for a while. Just watching the evening (national news) it appears migration has really slowed down nationwide b/c people feel they cannot sell their homes. So maybe we can slow the exodus this way :oops: . I know our wandering eye for other pastures has been tempered by this reality. I do believe the rebirth of Cleveland is more about the seemingly intangible, life-long,slow return, high yield investments that 8shades brings up as opposed to the much touted heavily subsidized urban lifestyle malls and office parks that so many believe will save the city. Especially concerning that so many eggs are in a few developer baskets given nationwide, these deals are falling apart left and right. I agree there are leadership issues...so many people are stuck in continual loop executing the same plays over and over . Problem is the game changed a long time ago.
March 21, 200817 yr I really think that we can all blame the companies that shut down and moved operations to the south. In some area they moved to area's where they have to pay higher wages to employee's like in some area's of Florida and California. If some of these companies stayed put they would be in better shape than they already are now.
March 21, 200817 yr Cleveland has been hit harder than most by trends affecting the entire Midwest. The foreclosure crisis is the latest blow. One thing I can say, and it is clearly in evidence in this thread, is that the people of Cleveland still have a fighting spirit about their town. That's certainly a positive. The most important change that is needed in Cleveland is a mindset change that sees the region as linked and a reciprocal view of city-suburb relations. That doesn't mean what you think it does. Today, most "regionalism" concepts seem to be about forcing outlying areas to pay tribute to Cleveland and Cuyahoga County. Until Clevelanders wake up to understanding that a great city needs great suburbs, and their prosperity can't be achieved by choking off outlying growth, I don't see a material change. The mention of Chicago is very appropriate. Neither Cleveland nor any other Midwest city has experienced anything like the Chicago condo boom, which is arguably the biggest in the United States, with literally thousands of units constructed every year. Yet despite this, the city of Chicago as a whole is flat to declining in population. The influx of the "creative class" can't make up for the exodus of everyone else. Any city vision that is founded on a monolithic appeal to upper classes is doomed to fail.
March 24, 200817 yr ^ Arenn, I see your point, but I have to disagree on regionalism. If anything, I think most discussions of regionalism today focus disproportionately on making suburbs and exurbs active partners; central cities are still the "reason to be" for a region ... If Cleveland fails, the ripples in the job market will make it difficult for any exurb to maintain its current quality of life in perpuity on its own. Regardless of whether suburbs are getting their due or not, smart growth strategies are imperative for the region as a whole. Already, we are seeing first- and second-ring suburbs facing many of the same challenges as the central city. Meanwhile, urban sprawl is robbing outlying communities of the authenticity and culture that they once enjoyed. Cities like Bay Village, Eastlake and Medina were not founded to be major population hubs; while sprawl might increase their tax revenues for the time being, it is also causing the development of infrastructure and services that these cities will have to continue to struggle with even if the residential base they're building for moves on to the next city or county out. The end result is that we continue to build more and more that we'll have to pay for ... but we have the same number of people paying for it all.
March 27, 200817 yr i live in the buckeye neighborhood and have never gotten anything from the census soon the census will estimate toledo has more people than cleveland has cleveland tried to fight the census? i know they've done a drill down but why has the city (council) not gone to the census? where can we write to and encourage this? detroit fought the census and won Revised census is boost for Detroiters Population figures could lure businesses November 9, 2007 BY ZACHARY GORCHOW FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER Detroit's population has long been less than 1 million, but it's greater than the U.S. Census Bureau's estimate issued this summer, according to the latest figures. The bureau, which in July estimated Detroit's 2006 population at 871,121, upheld a challenge from Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick's administration and agreed last week to a new estimate of 918,849. here's an article i found about a social compact drill down : http://www.csrwire.com/News/3145.html Key findings of the "The City of Cleveland Neighborhood Market DrillDown," by Social Compact: Population: # 28.8% larger residential population than indicated by Census Trend Projection 2003 (588,362 versus 456,625) # 15.8% greater household count than the Census Trend Projection figure (211,719 versus 182,898)
March 27, 200817 yr Interesting...I've never heard anything about that but it definitely sounds like something that should be looked into.
March 27, 200817 yr Here's the link to the Cleveland Drilldown on the Web - http://www.nhlink.net/socialcompact/ If I recall, the Cleveland Neighborhood Drilldown study was conducted for the purpose of showing developers that the neighborhoods were more viable marketplaces than the census indicated. The problem is that developers don't necessarily buy into it, and use their own data services. I've tried to use the data, but retailers and such just brush it off. I went to the International Council of Shopping Centers annual convention last year, and met with the Social Compact people. Those studies get so many cities and public officials excited, but in a sense, they aren't too useful (in my opinion).
March 27, 200817 yr soon the census will estimate toledo has more people than cleveland Unless Cleveland lost 100,000 and Toledo gained 130,000 this is simply not true. Toledo's population has been declining and has dipped below 300,000.
March 27, 200817 yr I agree. I live in Shaker Buckeye as well and I reported that they tried to tell us we live in "shaker heights" not Cleveland. I reported those people and we complained that some of our neighbors census forms might be incorrect.
March 27, 200817 yr I'm guessing Frank is somewhere after the unnecessary preposition. clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
March 27, 200817 yr i live in the buckeye neighborhood and have never gotten anything from the census In 2000? After 2000, everything is based on estimates that come from random samples. Unless you are talking about the 2000 census, you probably should not have received anything from the US Census Bureau.
March 27, 200817 yr I'm guessing Frank is somewhere after the unnecessary preposition. You sound just like my Mom!!!!
March 27, 200817 yr I'm guessing Frank is somewhere after the unnecessary preposition. If not there he might be hanging out with the missing "are". :-)
July 10, 200816 yr Here we go... this is not something I want our city to "lead" in... Cleveland leads big cities in population loss, census figures show By Alana Munro July 10, 2008, 5:38AM As civic leaders try to spark a Cleveland renaissance by attracting businesses and residents downtown, they face a challenge convincing the hometown folks of the city's prospects. More people left Cleveland last year than any other major city in America, the U.S. Census Bureau will report today. Since 2000, only hurricane-ravaged New Orleans weathered a sharper rate of population loss. Cleveland's descent slowed last year and the numerical loss -- about 5,000 people between July 2006 and July 2007 -- compares favorably to the 1970s, when the city at times hemorrhaged 15,000 people a year. But the rate of decline remains alarming for America's 40th-largest city, which has dipped to an estimated 438,042 people, and the neighbors are not faring so well, either... To reach this Plain Dealer reporter: [email protected], 216-999-4024 http://blog.cleveland.com/plaindealer/2008/07/cleveland_leads_big_cities_in.html
July 10, 200816 yr cleveland will always "lose" in these types of surveys mainly due to the incredibly small geographic boundaries of the city proper. The plain dealer would never bother explaining that to the masses... but it is what it is.
July 10, 200816 yr I don't know why I bothered scrolling down to the comments section on cleveland.com... Full of "I moved away from Cleveland in 2000 and boy am I a smug a-hole".
July 10, 200816 yr cleveland will always "lose" in these types of surveys mainly due to the incredibly small geographic boundaries of the city proper. The plain dealer would never bother explaining that to the masses... but it is what it is. The size of the municipal boundary doesn't really matter that much. In Cleveland's case they suffer from the issues that all older cities face with Census counting. It is more difficult to count the older/dense urban areas than it is SF homes on 1/2 acre lots.
July 10, 200816 yr This is a question so please NO CINCY vs. CLEV WAR. I thought Cincinnati's MSA surpassed Cleveland's? According to the data Cincinnati 2,009,632 and Cleveland 2,148,143, am I missing something? http://www.census.gov/population/estimates/metro_general/2007/CBSA-EST2007-alldata.csv
July 10, 200816 yr nothing new -- at least the article ended on a positive note. lack of jobs drives people away....but at the very least gas prices will bring some back. :| something else i saw quoted above in an earlier article: "We're not getting the immigrants," newcomers important to an area that is not a destination for retirees or tourists, Salling notes.
July 10, 200816 yr The 2007 Census Estimates (with 2006 numbers listed 2nd) for MSA are Cincinnati: 2,133,678 2,121,128 Cleveland: 2,096,471 2,105,319 Columbus: 1,754,337 1,734,563
July 10, 200816 yr cleveland will always "lose" in these types of surveys mainly due to the incredibly small geographic boundaries of the city proper. The plain dealer would never bother explaining that to the masses... but it is what it is. The size of the municipal boundary doesn't really matter that much. In Cleveland's case they suffer from the issues that all older cities face with Census counting. It is more difficult to count the older/dense urban areas than it is SF homes on 1/2 acre lots. I agree with you except for the SF homes on 1/2 acre lots part. With the land prices out there, I'd bet their average metro lot size is a lot smaller than ours.
July 10, 200816 yr i'm not sure many clevelanders moved too far away. i wonder how many of those msa'ers move from cle to col? the inverse numbers always seem to go relatively arm in arm. i guess one indication is that if the northern half of ohio is losing people and the southern half gaining, the state population estimate as a whole would at least have to hold steady. did it? maybe we can poke around for more on this kind of thing.
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