March 2, 200916 yr It depends. A good friend of mine was accosted by a gunman (gun-kid) in front of our apartment building, and he smashed a beer bottle over the guy's head. Situation defused. The he saw the kid on the bus a few days later... how awkward. Point is, stranger things have happened than people successfully defending themselves. I don't recommend it 100% of the time, and EVD I would probably have done exactly what you did in that situation. But every time I've physically defended myself it's been the right move. Never faced a gunman before, at least not like that. I've had them pointed at me by strangers in cars and that's about it.
March 2, 200916 yr I think one's being a little more macho when they pull the "I'm 6'6'' 270..." There is nothing heroic, cool, etc about using a gun to defend life, whether it be for your children, wife, etc. I am just advocating common sense and that most citizens use the most effective means of defending themselves.
March 2, 200916 yr 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed. James Wright and Peter Rossi, “Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms”, New York: Aldine, 1986. When using guns in self-defense: • 83% of robbery victims were not injured. • 88% of assault victims were not hurt. • 76% of all self-defense use of guns never involve firing a single shot. National Crime Victimization Survey, 1979-1985; (a little outdated, but you get the point) You are far more likely to survive a violent assault if you defend yourself with a gun. In episodes where a robbery victim was injured, the injury/defense rates were: Resisting with a gun 6% Did nothing at all 25% Resisted with a knife 40% Non-violent resistance 45% British Home Office – not a “pro-gun” organization by any means these statistics don't indicate whether or not/or how many of the perpetrators had guns; and of course there’s a difference between being threatened by a psychopath like Jeffery Dahmer and becoming the victim of a run-of-the-mill mugging. All the posturing I’m reading about fighting back when you have a gun pointed at you is just a bunch of pseudo-macho bluster—at least I hope it is! I was robbed at gunpoint once in an area considered “safe” (Noho--on Lafayette St) and not that late at night (10:30) by two kids (they looked about 17). I obediently gave them everything I had ($11.00), but they didn’t take my wallet. What amount of money or possessions is worth losing your life over !?!; although in my case I don’t wear Prada on the subway (or anywhere else, for that matter) like some people :wink: correction: sorry, I did now notice the "Felons and their Firearms" part (reading comprehension is not one of my strong suits lol). Still I think it's better to err on the side of caution--and not panic. These stats don't take into account victim reaction, which probably plays a larger part in escaping without harm than carrying a weapon for self-defense. http://www.mainstreetpainesville.org/
March 2, 200916 yr Read "More Guns, Less Crime" by John Lott. Those who sit there and take the crime are more likely to be injured. This is particularly true for females.
March 2, 200916 yr I think one's being a little more macho when they pull the "I'm 6'6'' 270..." There is nothing heroic, cool, etc about using a gun to defend life, whether it be for your children, wife, etc. I am just advocating common sense and that most citizens use the most effective means of defending themselves. LOL. Ok, I concede. In my defense, the 270 part is mostly fat, although if I suck it in I look more muscular. Perhaps you could become a superhero. You've already got the costume (I'm KIDDING...never lose the leisure suit...it's fantastic!)
March 2, 200916 yr I think one's being a little more macho when they pull the "I'm 6'6'' 270..." There is nothing heroic, cool, etc about using a gun to defend life, whether it be for your children, wife, etc. I am just advocating common sense and that most citizens use the most effective means of defending themselves. LOL. Ok, I concede. In my defense, the 270 part is mostly fat, although if I suck it in I look more muscular. Perhaps you could become a superhero. You've already got the costume (I'm KIDDING...never lose the leisure suit...it's fantastic!) I'm laughing so hard I almost spit out my coffee. Honestly palijandro, when I first saw that picture I thought you were old like me (I'm sure I wasn't the only one); and that your picture really was from the 70's/early 80's! (Not that I ever had one of those suits!!) http://www.mainstreetpainesville.org/
March 2, 200916 yr these statistics don't indicate whether or not/or how many of the perpetrators had guns; and of course there’s a difference between being threatened by a psychopath like Jeffery Dahmer and becoming the victim of a run-of-the-mill mugging. All the posturing I’m reading about fighting back when you have a gun pointed at you is just a bunch of pseudo-macho bluster—at least I hope it is! I was robbed at gunpoint once in an area considered “safe” (Noho--on Lafayette St) and not that late at night (10:30) by two kids (they looked about 17). I obediently gave them everything I had ($11.00), but they didn’t take my wallet. What amount of money or possessions is worth losing your life over !?!; although in my case I don’t wear Prada on the subway (or anywhere else, for that matter) like some people ;) Hey...hey...hey! You can be mugged anywhere a friend got knocked in the head on 57 St. & Lexington at 3 PM and he's 6'3". A methhead wanted his iPhone or blackberry. I think the Gays and the Lady's will agree with me, a Prada backpack is worth fighting for! :P Besides, that punk@ssb!tch, didn't even have a real gun, but it looked like one to me. Honestly, I felt violated and that pissed me off (I was in full blown PR mode). I was prepared to box. Granted, when the police showed up they were like, what were you thinking you could have been killed. Come to find out the jerk had been robbing people on the subway for a few months. I gave a police statement. I refused to let the police drop it because I didn't want that punk to get off easy.
March 2, 200916 yr Please quit (I'm that weirdo laughing by himself in Starbuck's right now). Are you Downtown?
March 2, 200916 yr ^I was at the Starbuck's @ E.14th; relocated to law library. That picture was arguably the greatest rebuttal ever.
March 3, 200916 yr I think there are tons of situations where one would never imagine something happening. what does this mean? there are also tons of situations that will never happen. what kind of logic are you trying to invoke? something might happen or might not happen at all. someday my car may burst into flames, I should wear a flame retardant suit while driving. really?! Read "More Guns, Less Crime" by John Lott. yea, because a book by a conservative who believes in gun rights is certainly going to present an unbiased view on the topic. an author who peer reviewed his own work! how fascinating a concept. quack nutbag writes inflamatory book to profit on gun toting nutbags. next!
March 3, 200916 yr Math, rather smug your response is. Regardless, where are your facts? You ridicule what I wrote, but you have absolutely nothing to back up your argument. Lott used tons of statistical data, research, etc to offer his point of view. Furthermore, in case you didn't notice, the stats I used on the previous page were not from Lott. Anyways, it is very easy to denounce a concept without providing any rationale or evidence to the contrary. Unfortunately, you did this perfectly. NEXT!!
March 3, 200916 yr Read "More Guns, Less Crime" by John Lott. yea, because a book by a conservative who believes in gun rights is certainly going to present an unbiased view on the topic. an author who peer reviewed his own work! how fascinating a concept. quack nutbag writes inflamatory book to profit on gun toting nutbags. next! Not sure if you're aware of this, Math, but most people have a view, one way or another, on gun rights. Thus, according to your logic, no one can ever accurately research the topic, because, depending on their beliefs, they will corrupt the process. Soooooo..... I suppose KJP can't do research on trains because he enjoys riding them Mayday can't provide analysis on [said] style of architecture because he prefers [said] architecture A medical doctor cannot write a book on the virtue of science based medicine over voodoo because he uses science based medicine. Anyways, keep up the good work.
March 3, 200916 yr and clearly you have one mind on this issue. my point is, I played my hand and you responded to that with faulty logic. if I am a little chippy about some nutbag author, what's it to you? I didn't call your stats into question, or even your pro-gun bravado. I questioned your logic on one point and questioned your reading recommendation. also there is a difference between an advocate on a topic and someone like lott, who has an agenda across the board.
March 3, 200916 yr five seconds on google: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2003/10/double-barreled-double-standards also, he impersonated a woman online and spoke glowingly of himself. http://www.whoismaryrosh.com/ but hey, I bet it's a good read.
March 3, 200916 yr Well, to ignore the arguement above, I generally don't carry anything with me downtown. Mostly when I'm downtown, its either because of work, or I'm doing something after work, and the office has pretty tight security, so its more trouble than its worth. (I work in the Federal building.) On occasion I've carried a canister of mace if I'm in a part of town I don't know, but realistically I doubt I'd have the presence of mind to remember it was in my pocket if I'd needed it. I view a gun as the fastest way to piss off someone that's threatening me, and will not carry one.
March 3, 200916 yr i was wondering, if the city of cleveland tried to enact a no-carry gun law within the city limits, would that overrule ohio's new concealed weapon allowance? also, in regard to the criminal minded, is there any automatic prisontime penalty in ohio if you are caught with an unregistered weapon? thx if you know
March 3, 200916 yr Yes if you get caught with an unregistered weapon your going to jail. I'm not sure of the exact term but there is a mandatory sentence. I think in Pa it's 3 years.
March 3, 200916 yr i was wondering, if the city of cleveland tried to enact a no-carry gun law within the city limits, would that overrule ohio's new concealed weapon allowance? also, in regard to the criminal minded, is there any automatic prisontime penalty in ohio if you are caught with an unregistered weapon? thx if you know No, it would be struck down. While Ohio cities have home rule, they can't violate the state constitution. DC had a rule almost as restrictive as the one you propose, but it got struck down in Heller. The city can make reasonable laws curtailing gun rights, but it can't prohibit them. It would be like if Cleveland tried to outlaw the practice of Judaism. It runs counter to the Ohio Constitution and would be banned. Now, back to the "pro-gun bravado." and clearly you have one mind on this issue. my point is, I played my hand and you responded to that with faulty logic. if I am a little chippy about some nutbag author, what's it to you? I didn't call your stats into question, or even your pro-gun bravado. I questioned your logic on one point and questioned your reading recommendation. also there is a difference between an advocate on a topic and someone like lott, who has an agenda across the board. Hmm, not sure where the faulty logic was. Maybe if you "quoted" me, it would be more clear. And PM me about the differences between an "advocate" and someone who has an "agenda."
March 3, 200916 yr this was what i found googling on my second question: "It is unlawful for a person without a concealed handgun license to carry a handgun concealed on his or her person." but i didn't find what the penalty was. anyone know? still no idea on the first question.
March 3, 200916 yr ^I don't understand. Are you asking if Cleveland could prohibit even those with c&c permits to legally carry a gun on them? If so, my answer above stands.
March 3, 200916 yr I don't know the answer to that, but it would be interesting if cities could restrict gun rights beyond state levels, but can't offer any greater protection against predatory lending. That's one area where state law reigns supreme. It wouldn't surprise me if the city had to honor state permits. Even then, it doesn't change the fact that you can't have a firearm in most businesses, so CC is highly impractical.
March 4, 200916 yr Even then, it doesn't change the fact that you can't have a firearm in most businesses, so CC is highly impractical. According to state law the only places a CCW permit holder is not allowed to carry is , schools, government buildings, daycares (or places with a daycare inside) and class D liquor license carriers. Anywhere else you are good to go. Now obviously business owners may put up a sign themselves that prohibit guns on their property. http://www.ohioccw.org/'>http://www.ohioccw.org/] http://www.ohioccw.org/ [url=http://ohioccwforums.org/]http://ohioccwforums.org/ Lots of info there for Ohio Concealed carry. Not sure if it has been answered yet, but opencarry of a handgun is perfectly legal in the state of Ohio. No permit required.
March 5, 200916 yr I don't know why, but I feel a sudden sense of shock that maybe I'm missing something. I've walked/biked through some pretty nasty neighborhoods around Detroit and Philadelphia at all hours but don't feel threatend. I mean it's cool if you feel a weapon makes you more secure but I've never needed one. Is there something very different between downtown Cleveland and your home environment? I mean Cleveland's downtown would be towards the end of my list of places to be concerned about. I don't know, maybe it's just me. Even homeless don't approach me like they do other people. I don't want to say there are people who put themselves out as easy targets, but the level of exposure me or my friends have to what are considered unsafe places should have resulted in at least one incident by now. I guess the people I know who have carried weapons are defending themselves because of a particular reason. Maybe it's because they are carrying a lot of money, or driving a nice car, or they are dressed in a way that may cast themselves as carrying valuables. Even a few blocks from my apartment, 1 person is robbed at gunpoint maybe every other month. It's always the same story. Had the ipod up loud, wearing expensive clothing, or parking their pricey SUV at 2:15 a.m. But I feel if you are doing your thing, and walk with a purpose, you will avoid the people you wish to not encounter. Even if that fails, I just don't think a weapon will help you much, if not make the situation worse. It seems like a big risk to defend $60 in cash and some credit cards. At the very worst (and previously mentioned) you could be jumped and pummeled by a gang. But typically waving a gun or knife won't help you if they have the same. That's asking for even more trouble.
March 5, 200916 yr But I feel if you are doing your thing, and walk with a purpose, you will avoid the people you wish to not encounter. You're not a female, clearly. I obviously can't speak for other people's reasons, but you are definitely not ignored by anyone when you're even a relatively attractive female, be it gangs, homeless, drunks, or other unsavory characters. Believe me, I WISH it were as easy as just walking with a purpose and ignoring people, but it's not.
March 5, 200916 yr "Even if that fails, I just don't think a weapon will help you much, if not make the situation worse. It seems like a big risk to defend $60 in cash and some credit cards. At the very worst (and previously mentioned) you could be jumped and pummeled by a gang. But typically waving a gun or knife won't help you if they have the same. That's asking for even more trouble." HAY ----- Statistics point to it leading to less trouble. To me, it's more than defending $60 (usually less in my case). It's about being able to walk where I want, without feeling defenseless. And it's not all the time I feel that way. It's mainly the times I am leaving class around 10,00 and waiting at a bus stop by myself or walking the 18 blocks to public square. Also, does your statement about a weapon escalating the mugging run counter to common sense? The way I see it, it increases the likelihood your mugger will run off and decreases the chances of you being harmed (I'd be more wary of using a knife).
March 5, 200916 yr Being unarmed in a gunfight, or a knife fight, is not my idea of a good time. The essence of a mugging is to have one of these foisted upon you, unless you buy your way out of it. I think there is a difference between a man walking alone through a scary place and a woman doing it. Firearms close the self-defense gap considerably, but the woman is still more likely to be messed with. This sucks... and it may a key reason why new urbnanism appeals so much more to males at this point. I mean, the ratio on this forum does not reflect society at large.
March 5, 200916 yr It's an entirely different ball game for women. One that, unfortunately, poses much greater risks.
March 5, 200916 yr In general, I've felt (and I'm convinced, have BEEN) much safer in most of the parts of Cleveland that I've been in over the years than even on my daily commute to and from work when I lived in LA, hence the gun there and no gun here (plus I had no way to get my gun back home since I flew back when I moved back). I remember driving to work and experiencing truly terrifying moments of people who have really advanced illnesses coming up and trying your door handles while you're waiting for the light to change, pounding on the window and yelling at you, or driving in front of someone and seeing the person in your rearview driving erratically and realizing they are doing coke and it's only 6:30 a.m. Not to mention which going to a place like Pink's for a hot dog can be an education in gang hierarchy as there is usually a whole gang there eating outside, it just feels a little better having a gun as you walk to and from your car.
March 5, 200916 yr In general, I've felt (and I'm convinced, have BEEN) much safer in most of the parts of Cleveland that I've been in over the years than even on my daily commute to and from work when I lived in LA, hence the gun there and no gun here (plus I had no way to get my gun back home since I flew back when I moved back). I remember driving to work and experiencing truly terrifying moments of people who have really advanced illnesses coming up and trying your door handles while you're waiting for the light to change, pounding on the window and yelling at you, or driving in front of someone and seeing the person in your rearview driving erratically and realizing they are doing coke and it's only 6:30 a.m. Not to mention which going to a place like Pink's for a hot dog can be an education in gang hierarchy as there is usually a whole gang there eating outside, it just feels a little better having a gun as you walk to and from your car. You went to pinks alone? Oh my Gawd. I took the kids because they want to go, and all I could see are Mexican gang signs going towards those alley's. You know LA is good for a back alley. We're in line and I hear two quick "pop" - someone was shot right in front of the chevron. The people in line acted like it was no big deal. I was like "I'm out!!!"
March 5, 200916 yr NOO, not alone, with my then-fiancee, who was a complete nut case. High-powered corporate CFO by day, LAPD as a nights/weekends job. He's the one that first got me into shooting.
March 5, 200916 yr In general, I've felt (and I'm convinced, have BEEN) much safer in most of the parts of Cleveland that I've been in over the years than even on my daily commute to and from work when I lived in LA, hence the gun there and no gun here (plus I had no way to get my gun back home since I flew back when I moved back). I remember driving to work and experiencing truly terrifying moments of people who have really advanced illnesses coming up and trying your door handles while you're waiting for the light to change, pounding on the window and yelling at you, or driving in front of someone and seeing the person in your rearview driving erratically and realizing they are doing coke and it's only 6:30 a.m. Not to mention which going to a place like Pink's for a hot dog can be an education in gang hierarchy as there is usually a whole gang there eating outside, it just feels a little better having a gun as you walk to and from your car. I'm convinced that 1) you're way more bad a$$ than I'll ever hope to be, and 2) you've led a so much more interesting life than I have. Maybe if I strap on a gun I'll have better stories to tell. To that end, I'm guessing that the outwardly holstered weapon is going to serve much better as a deterrent than the C&C is. If that's the reason you want it, then the C&C isn't even necessary. As someone upthread mentioned, there's nothing stopping anyone with a gun permit from holstering it externally.
March 5, 200916 yr i was wondering, if the city of cleveland tried to enact a no-carry gun law within the city limits, would that overrule ohio's new concealed weapon allowance? also, in regard to the criminal minded, is there any automatic prisontime penalty in ohio if you are caught with an unregistered weapon? thx if you know No, it would be struck down. While Ohio cities have home rule, they can't violate the state constitution. DC had a rule almost as restrictive as the one you propose, but it got struck down in Heller. The city can make reasonable laws curtailing gun rights, but it can't prohibit them. It would be like if Cleveland tried to outlaw the practice of Judaism. It runs counter to the Ohio Constitution and would be banned. Now, back to the "pro-gun bravado." no, no. you misunderstood or i wasnt clear. i did not mean could the city say you cant own a gun. of course not. we're not talking constitution here. i meant that given the 'new' state law, could the city say you cannot carry a concealed weapon on you w/in city limits despite your state permit. much different. any thoughts? According to state law the only places a CCW permit holder is not allowed to carry is , schools, government buildings, daycares (or places with a daycare inside) and class D liquor license carriers. Anywhere else you are good to go. Now obviously business owners may put up a sign themselves that prohibit guns on their property. http://www.ohioccw.org/] http://www.ohioccw.org/]http://www.ohioccw.org/]http://www.ohioccw.org/] http://www.ohioccw.org/ [url=http://ohioccwforums.org/]http://ohioccwforums.org/ Lots of info there for Ohio Concealed carry. Not sure if it has been answered yet, but opencarry of a handgun is perfectly legal in the state of Ohio. No permit required. this is confusing too, basically that the law says you can carry a concealed weapon into any business (outside of daycare, etc), except if the owner puts out a sign that says you can't? is that right? if so it seems like cleveland could just hang up a sign too that says you cant carry one in the whole city. or at least with home rule it may be possible? just wondering. i checked the link, which is great, but i'm still not sure. just to be clear my point is, what if cleveland or any ohio city said, "permit or no permit, we have enough trouble or whatever, we just don't want people carrying concealed weapons around in our city limits." could they move to block it? thx again.
March 5, 200916 yr NOO, not alone, with my then-fiancee, who was a complete nut case. High-powered corporate CFO by day, LAPD as a nights/weekends job. He's the one that first got me into shooting. \ I was about to say, damn girl. That area is straight stank!
March 6, 200916 yr In general, I've felt (and I'm convinced, have BEEN) much safer in most of the parts of Cleveland that I've been in over the years than even on my daily commute to and from work when I lived in LA, hence the gun there and no gun here (plus I had no way to get my gun back home since I flew back when I moved back). I remember driving to work and experiencing truly terrifying moments of people who have really advanced illnesses coming up and trying your door handles while you're waiting for the light to change, pounding on the window and yelling at you, or driving in front of someone and seeing the person in your rearview driving erratically and realizing they are doing coke and it's only 6:30 a.m. Not to mention which going to a place like Pink's for a hot dog can be an education in gang hierarchy as there is usually a whole gang there eating outside, it just feels a little better having a gun as you walk to and from your car. I'm convinced that 1) you're way more bad a$$ than I'll ever hope to be, and 2) you've led a so much more interesting life than I have. LOL. It has been interesting, for sure. And I'm not so much a badass anymore, but I used to be quite the badass back when I was in my 20s and working security as my 2nd job.
March 6, 200916 yr Ok the area by Pinks is not THAT bad. Also, RockandRoller, you said you never took the freeways and instead opted for surface streets where apparently you were almost carjacked a number of times? Personally, I would take some traffic on the 10 rather than risk my life daily, especially if I was a woman. Maybe that's just me...
March 6, 200916 yr But I feel if you are doing your thing, and walk with a purpose, you will avoid the people you wish to not encounter. You're not a female, clearly. I obviously can't speak for other people's reasons, but you are definitely not ignored by anyone when you're even a relatively attractive female, be it gangs, homeless, drunks, or other unsavory characters. Believe me, I WISH it were as easy as just walking with a purpose and ignoring people, but it's not. I was waiting for this post. I was going to say that my statement was more directed toward males, since attacks involving females involve different motives by the attacker or much different situations. All females should carry mace on them, yes. I ended up omitting this. It was getting late and I felt my post was getting more complicated than it should. Also, does your statement about a weapon escalating the mugging run counter to common sense? The way I see it, it increases the likelihood your mugger will run off and decreases the chances of you being harmed (I'd be more wary of using a knife). It is likelier your attacker will run off, I agree statistics prove this. But the chance that it fails could mean much dire consequences. I rarely see articles where someone is randomly killed over mugging. Instead it was instigated by something (like a weapon you are carrying). I think of it like this. You are more likely to get in an accident at 40 mph than you are at 70. But you'll probably make it out okay of the 40 mph accident where the 70 mph accident could result in your death. The desire for speeding, like the desire to beef up your defenses could be fatal in the chance another weapon is pointed at you. It's hard to tell how many times the attacker has used that weapon, but are most people that prepared? If you are, then that is excellent. I'm not really debating eithics of carrying guns or kninves. If people want to carry one on them to feel safe, then that's great as long as they are responsible. I'm just saying that the chance the attacker does not stand down to your gun, but pulls out his own would be the worst. But this alone was not enough to justify me responding. I guess I'm just surprised that there are people who have so much trouble. It makes me wonder if that I am being careless about my own safety. I've just never seen the need, or else avoid these types of situations altogether by avoiding a particular street at a certain time of day or using some mode of transit to guarantee safe travel around certain areas.
March 6, 200916 yr Ok the area by Pinks is not THAT bad. Also, RockandRoller, you said you never took the freeways and instead opted for surface streets where apparently you were almost carjacked a number of times? Personally, I would take some traffic on the 10 rather than risk my life daily, especially if I was a woman. Maybe that's just me... Please. I think it's that bad and I rarely fee out of place. I don't speak west coast spanglish. I'm PR and the Vatos made me uncomfortable.
March 6, 200916 yr I don't believe I was ever at risk of carjacking, except maybe one night when I went to visit a friend of mine, she lived in Rampart district and it was really scary driving to see her. The people knocking on the windows were homeless people with AIDS (or at least that's what they said or what their signs said) or people selling things. They are just more aggressive in LA than they are elsewhere. I really don't see a homeless person carjacking me. It took me about 30 minutes to get to work taking surface streets, which thousands of other people did as well, it's not like I was driving around the Forum by myself as the only car taking shortcuts on the side streets at midnight. If I had taken the freeway, due to the interchange where I would have had to get off, it took 2-3 hours each day. I occasionally had to take the freeway out of work when I was going somewhere other than home and the first hour was usually spent going about 1 mile because there were 4 freeways that met all at the same place, it was very bad. The streets were dicey in some spots (I mean, it feels more unsafe driving through Koreatown but I never had any problems there) but the bulk of the commute was just fine - Hancock Park, etc. And if there was an accident on one street you could cut down and get on another and continue your commute without a problem, which you couldn't do on the freeway. I took the freeways when I first started working downtown but it was unreal. A two-hour drive with "normal" traffic and 3 hours if there was even a minor traffic incident.
March 6, 200916 yr Shall we change the name of this thread to reflect the conversation?? BACK ON TOPIC!
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