If we're too poor to do anything right, we should just admit that and quit trying.  Otherwise we need to have standards and we need to enforce them with pride.  Pride!  It's no wonder people make fun of us. 

 

No more 1/2 @ssing anything.  If businesses in Pitt, Cincy, Cbus, Detroit, Indy, etc are putting up real signs we need to do so as well.  I do travel some and I do not see this preponderance of vinyl in other cities' showpiece districts.

 

What do you mean "we're to poor"??  You are really reading way to much into this.

 

If the city/CDB don't have a problem with a business using an awning in this manner, why do you?  If it's that much of an issue, become an investor in that business and layout a plan for improvement.  I'm not saying that to be mean, but your argument is way off base. 

 

What other cities do is irrelevant in this nature.  And why would someone make fun of us over a sign?  Hell I'm sure that tacky "welcome to Las Vegas" sign was deemed tacky at once and now its a tourist draw.

 

What other cities do is entirely relevant when we're in competition with them, which we are.  By "we're too poor" I mean that when I ask why we can't utilize the strategy Cincy uses to get retail downtown, we can't afford it.  When I ask why we don't have stricter design standards in showpiece districts, we can't afford it. 

 

In both cases, I think we can't afford not to.  If we can't afford to compete we're better off following the Youngstown 2010 plan and bulldozing half the city.  Do it right or don't do it at all.  Drive around successful urban neighborhoods and take notes.  If they have brick we need brick, not vinyl.  If they have backlit signs or painted wood signs, we need those too, not vinyl. 

 

I have met the enemy and he is vinyl.  Don't ask me to evaluate the city's position on this if you want to hear anything nice.  It is and has been their job to make sure we keep the pace and don't become a non-competitive national joke.  Fail.  Next!

I think this is getting a bit blown out of proportion .. HOWEVER, I do think that signage is an important element to how a business is perceived, and it shouldn't be overlooked.

 

I, personally, get very frustrated when people say design aesthetics don't matter. They DO. BIG time. At least, they do to me. Because if I see a store/restaurant/bar, etc that's not designed very well, I'm less likely to visit it .. and I'm sure others feel the same way, whether it's consciously or subconsciously. That's not always the case for me, but I generally like to visit places that are "cooler", inside and out.

 

Now .. in terms of the whole vinyl banner thing. I personally don't have a problem with it, and I actually like the way they look at times.

327 I say this as nicely as I possibly can. When it comes to architecture, design, construction, and development.  You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.  Sorry.

327 I say this as nicely as I possibly can. When it comes to architecture, design, construction, and development.  You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.  Sorry.

 

327 I say this as nicely as I possibly can. When it comes to architecture, design, construction, and development.  You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.  Sorry.

 

Says the same person that just recently said "Hey, Look, someone with some common sense..." to 327 on the same topic... :evil:

327 I say this as nicely as I possibly can. When it comes to architecture, design, construction, and development. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Sorry.

 

Says the same person that just recently said "Hey, Look, someone with some common sense..." to the same person... :evil:

 

I made the common sense comment to MTS who remarked that maybe the decision had more to do with finance than aesthetics.

I think this is getting a bit blown out of proportion .. HOWEVER, I do think that signage is an important element to how a business is perceived, and it shouldn't be overlooked.

 

I, personally, get very frustrated when people say design aesthetics don't matter. They DO. BIG time. At least, they do to me. Because if I see a store/restaurant/bar, etc that's not designed very well, I'm less likely to visit it .. and I'm sure others feel the same way, whether it's consciously or subconsciously. That's not always the case for me, but I generally like to visit places that are "cooler", inside and out.

 

Now .. in terms of the whole vinyl banner thing. I personally don't have a problem with it, and I actually like the way they look at times.

 

Signage is incredibly important.  And there is an enormous difference between say what is essentially a tarp and looks very temporary (i.e. what is currently in front of erie island coffee co.) and vinyl / mesh banners which are used in every modern city in the world, say the way fat fish blue, luxe, and even bang and clatter are.

I am honored to have been criticzed by the likes of you.  But seriously, I think design standards matter and Cleveland too often falls short.  I think good urban design standards are readily observable in several well-branded regional neighborhoods.  Only a couple of these are in the Cleveland area and sadly none are in Cleveland proper.  I would count E4th as well-branded but it's one block of one street, and it's very very new. 

 

Point is, these ideas are not my own.  It's like the Far Side comic where the cavemen are all holding their food in the fire barehanded, but the one guy uses a stick, and another guy points and says "Look what Zog do."  In our case, Zog doesn't let major developments go up with materials and designs that would not pass muster in other nearby cities.  We should observe design standards in cities generally considered more competitive and adopt similar ones here.

 

If you think we should we should build everything going forward with poured concrete and polyvinyl carbonated pastel flubber, with flippity-floppity invisible-at-night signs to match, may all your dreams come true.  In Orlando. 

yes you are right. no one else uses vinyl/mesh banners.  Not even in the picture willyboy showed you for dc.

 

I'm sorry.  you just don't even know what you don't know. but you act like if you yell loud enough about it you'll be right. I'll stay out of this thread now.

This entire thread deserves a:

 

One could say that about a lot of people.  You're attacking the straw man that "no one else uses vinyl/mesh banners."  You'll always win that argument but who's taking the other side I don't know.  I'm talking frequencies and percentages, and have been all along.  I think the example Willyboy posted was an intentional joke, considering that I was talking about commercial districts and that appears to be a giant institutional building.  None of the same standards or expectations apply.  In fact, that's the sort of use I'd say banners are appropriate for.

 

In this thread, as with all threads, I will continue attempting to discuss ideas, rather than evaluating individuals.  I may get blustery but I do my best not to get personal.

Since this was split from something or the other, where is a said photo of this sign?

In the Cleveland Sports Hall of Fame thread.

This entire thread deserves a:

 

 

Meaning to use MTS's photo.  You have really become humorous 327.:laugh:

 

Maybe go back and re-read this stuff from the biginning in the other thread and you'll see that your basically just having an argument with yourself..  Nobody has really disagreed with what you are saying...

 

As far as Luxe goes, that can be.... just a difference in opinion and taste...  Its ok if it doesnt appeal to you.     

For the most part, but the problem exists for me to complain about, so somebody must disagree.  I drove by Luxe this morning, hoping to have a newfound appreciation for their sign.  Nay.  Although I can now see how it's different and why people like it.  My main issue is that it lacks nighttime impact, and this is supposed to be a nascent entertainment district. 

327 you mention that you want a sign with a nighttime impact.  Can't this be acheived by placing spotlights on the sign if it isn't back lit.  I think Fat fish and Bang and Clatter do this and it is effective.  Additionally, if everyone were to place backlit/neon signs I think that it would become overbearing.  You need variety ever once in a while.

327 you mention that you want a sign with a nighttime impact.  Can't this be acheived by placing spotlights on the sign if it isn't back lit.  I think Fat fish and Bang and Clatter do this and it is effective.  Additionally, if everyone were to place backlit/neon signs I think that it would become overbearing.  You need variety ever once in a while.

 

I guess all those stores in SoHo are tacky since many have banner exactly like LUXE.

 

Again, this is a no merit, personal opinion, point of view.

327, How DARE you challenge the brilliance of these people!!!  They know everything.  If your ideas differ, you truly are an IDIOT, PAID SCHILL,  ETC.  Surprised you were not suspended.

 

I think this is a topic for another thread.  Thought police knows no sides, colors, etc.  It comes from the right, the left, straight, black, white, and gay.  People go personal and it's pathetic.  I thought that stuff was more for Cleveland.bomb, but obviously it isn't. 

 

From this point on though 327, let's remember 

 

When it comes to architecture, design, construction, and development.  You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.  Sorry.

 

I can just smell the condescension.

 

So you get the idea 327?  Offer different ideas and interesting viewpoints, and you get the big  STFU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Thanks for the support, Mr. 7. 

 

Orthodoxy is a powerful force.  It's true that everything on that laundry list of my shortcomings is an area in which I lack professional expertise.  Then again, the reason I didn't pursue an urban planning degree was the amount of redundancy, at the class-by-class level, with what I have already studied.  I imagine that's true for lots of other UO members who don't introduce themselves as urban planners or developers or city officials. 

 

That's not the point anyway.  The point is that I just spent 4 years studying the law, yet a person who hasn't read book one about the law can still make valid arguments to me.  They may develop a better way to solve a legal dilemma, because they aren't held back by the inertia of existing canon.  They may even show me up with something they saw on TruTV.  None of this devalues my training, nor does my training devalue that other person.

 

And no, I do not think a banner with a spotlight on has anywhere near the impact of a solid 3-D backlit sign.  Between that and their front door, "Sometimes in the Silence" has really crappified what might be the nicest facade in Ohio.  Though yes I still prefer it to the alternative of having the building empty. 

327, How DARE you challenge the brilliance of these people!!!  They know everything.  If your ideas differ, you truly are an IDIOT, PAID SCHILL,  ETC.  Surprised you were not suspended.

 

I think this is a topic for another thread.  Thought police knows no sides, colors, etc.  It comes from the right, the left, straight, black, white, and gay.  People go personal and it's pathetic.  I thought that stuff was more for Cleveland.bomb, but obviously it isn't. 

 

From this point on though 327, let's remember 

 

When it comes to architecture, design, construction, and development.  You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.  Sorry.

 

I can just smell the condescension.

 

So you get the idea 327?  Offer different ideas and interesting viewpoints, and you get the big  STFU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

 

Aren't you just the polyester wearing pot stirrer??!!

Aren't you just the polyester wearing pot stirrer??!!

 

At least he doesn't wear vinyl with a spotlight on it.

Aren't you just the polyester wearing pot stirrer??!!

 

At least he doesn't wear vinyl with a spotlight on it.

That would be an improvement over his current fashion choices.

I really don't see how this topic deserves its own thread. I want the minute of my life back that was required to post this reply and scroll through the thread.

I agree, and I'm the one who started it.  My recent approach has been to create new threads when broader issues become contentious in threads about specific projects.  What you just described is the drawback of doing that.  This thread started with me defending the appearance of the sports hall of fame sign.  I explained my criteria for judging signs and provided counterexamples to illustrate.  That itself become an issue, and here we are. 

 

Now I owe jpop two minutes.

Ok, I agree that the Door and pharse above it are beyond tacky.  And obiously when you spend so much on a door and wording above it you may not be able to put up a more expensive sign.  However I still think that a banner that is on fixed poles that are afixed to the buildings exterior represent quality signage.  As long as it isn't just tied on, which really screams temporary, I think it has its place. 

 

Now should the Bang and Clatter taken the savings and better invested it, absoulutly.

Aren't you just the polyester wearing pot stirrer??!!

 

More like this dude...

 

I feel like 327 raises valid points about retail in Downtown Cleveland, and now signage in Cleveland, and he just gets shot down by people saying he doesn't know what he's talking about.  The majority of the people don't truly know what they're talking about with most things, politics, religion, cities, etc.  What he, and the majority of people see is that a)there is a serious dearth in retail in downtown Cleveland, and B) the signage used in the city is cheap looking.  Instead of saying "shut up you don't know what you're talking about", why don't you guys foster a healthy conversation that is meaningful.  Would that really hurt?

We have a Board of Building Standards?

 

Quote stolen from another thread

 

I think 327 may be making some phone calls . . :D

"Good morning, may I speak with the Department of Wreckage, East Side Division?"

"What he, and the majority of people see is that a)there is a serious dearth in retail in downtown Cleveland, and B) the signage used in the city is cheap looking.  Instead of saying "shut up you don't know what you're talking about", why don't you guys foster a healthy conversation that is meaningful.  Would that really hurt?"

 

The dearth of retail? Explained in painful detail ad nauseum - but we should entertain the idea of suing retailers into locating downtown? Cheap looking signage? Again... where's a productive conversation going to come from when someone 1. completely disregards reality and those who actually know and share the details of why things are the way they are and 2. won't put a sock in it and say "I guess that answers that". What part of the Admins and Mods 1. have lives to live and 2. don't get paid a cent to babysit threads DON'T you understand?!?

What I don't understand is why people are so quick to shoot down anyone who is trying to have a harmless discussion about what he would like to see in his city on an internet forum.  Sure it might be unrealistic, but this is just a board for urban (Ohio) enthusiasts, and I don't see a need to be condescending to someone who challenges the current state of things in Cleveland. 

 

And I don't think the Admins and Mods really have to police this issue much.  There is no harm in having a conversation, even if it is unrealistic.  What I think the Mods SHOULD do, is call people out for insulting other posters and being unnecessarily rude and harsh.

edale, fyi the signage discussion started on the Cleveland Hall of Fame Cafe thread and went on for at least 2 pages before this thread was started.  So it built up a bit there.       

Curious as to why they used a picture of the Boston skyline for this graphic....

https://t.co/kYOpYMLr0f