Are you missing what I'm saying???  This project along with other coming online will have street level retail?  Yes or no?

 

People who chose to live in locations like this most likely will be walkers;  Couples who decide to reduce the number of cars they currently have or chose another mode (bike, moped, skateboard, etc.).  To me that amount of parking is not necessary for a project of this scale.  There are still plenty of parking spaces in the immediate area.  It's overkill.

 

About 750 surface parking spaces will be detroyed with this project.  Take that and add 500 more spots for the new residential units and you're at 1,250 (assuming every one of those 500 residential units have just one person living in them, which they won't).  So that's only 1,150 more spots to cover 700,000 sq. ft. of office space plus restaurants and a hotel.  I don't think that's "overkill".

 

"People who chose to live in locations like this most likely will be walkers" is a great dream but just not true at this point in time.  I've lived downtown for 3 years and have a car.  My girlfriend has lived downtown for five years and has a car.  Her sister has lived downtown longer than that and has a car.  My girlfriend's friend in the Warehouse District has a car.  My sister was downtown for two years and had a car.  And she even worked downtown!  The person renting my condo downtown has a car and he walks less than a mile to work.  The vast majority of people I know that live downtown have cars.  It's just a fact.

 

And getting rid of parking spaces will NOT make people say, "Gee, there's no parking downtown so I guess I'll ride a bus."  It will make them say, "There's no parking downtown so I'm not going downtown."  Parking is the number one complaint I hear from suburbanities about visiting or living downtown. 

 

Americans (including Clevelanders) love their cars.  And people that talk about the values of public transportation (myself included) will not be able to change anyone's mind just by making downtown less car-friendly.

Are you missing what I'm saying???  This project along with other coming online will have street level retail?  Yes or no?

 

People who chose to live in locations like this most likely will be walkers;  Couples who decide to reduce the number of cars they currently have or chose another mode (bike, moped, skateboard, etc.).  To me that amount of parking is not necessary for a project of this scale.  There are still plenty of parking spaces in the immediate area.  It's overkill.

 

About 750 surface parking spaces will be detroyed with this project.  Take that and add 500 more spots for the new residential units and you're at 1,250 (assuming every one of those 500 residential units have just one person living in them, which they won't).  So that's only 1,150 more spots to cover 700,000 sq. ft. of office space plus restaurants and a hotel.  I don't think that's "overkill".

 

"People who chose to live in locations like this most likely will be walkers" is a great dream but just not true at this point in time.  I've lived downtown for 3 years and have a car.  My girlfriend has lived downtown for five years and has a car.  Her sister has lived downtown longer than that and has a car.  My girlfriend's friend in the Warehouse District has a car.  My sister was downtown for two years and had a car.  And she even worked downtown!  The person renting my condo downtown has a car and he walks less than a mile to work.  The vast majority of people I know that live downtown have cars.  It's just a fact.

 

And getting rid of parking spaces will NOT make people say, "Gee, there's no parking downtown so I guess I'll ride a bus."  It will make them say, "There's no parking downtown so I'm not going downtown."  Parking is the number one complaint I hear from suburbanities about visiting or living downtown. 

 

Americans (including Clevelanders) love their cars.  And people that talk about the values of public transportation (myself included) will not be able to change anyone's mind just by making downtown less car-friendly.

jborger, welcome and thank you for giving me a residents point of view.  However, I'm of the camp that feels until we embrace and improve transportation - that is make it the norm, not the option - people will continue to use their cars.

 

However, those in cities with a good rail and bus transit system (Boston, NYC Metro, Philly metro) do not value their cars in the same manner as most Americana's, Clevelanders included.

This is pure rumor but I thought it would be fun to post...was talking to a staff member of a business currently renting space above Johnny's....their office has heard that this project will be breaking ground next spring and that the developer is trying to persuade the owners of Johnny's to move their restaurant across the street into a hotel planned for the site...again pure rumor and even if true they are probably still in the "wish" stage but at least it looks as though people are talking.

^I've heard that this project ran into some financing issues very recently.

I have been told by a very trustworthy source that the two office buildings on the corners of St. Clair/W 6th and Superior/W 6th have anchor tenants lined up.  Those components are very close to the green light and will be in the ballpark of a combined 300,000 sq ft.  The residential, hotel and retail components are more long term goals.  The developers are waiting on more concrete plans for the MM/CC to further evaluate the viability/scale of the hospitality offered, which in turn will aid in the evaluation of what retail might work.  As far as retail goes, look for national brands (for dining, shopping and entertainment) because of creditworthiness concerns.  More dining and entertainment than shopping though.  The residential part of the project will have to wait for the lending institutions to ease up on that front.

That just made my day!

Baby steps!

^^Great news! 

Cool!!  This thread is all very interesting to me especially since I am interning over at the Rockefeller Building this summer.

I had heard awhile back that the 6th and St. Clair building was full of commitments (headlined by a law firm and ad agency), and they were working on trying to line up tennants for the 6th and Superior Building (no idea where they are at).  The hotel and residential portions on 3rd would be influenced by the med mart... at the time they were hoping to break ground this summer... as 3231 pointed out, I too have heard they recently had some issues with financing for the project.  It was almost a done deal 6-8 weeks ago. Chalk one up to the globabl credit crisis.

 

Good News:  This is a very viable project with a lot of comitments.

Bad News:  Still needs funding in an economy where getting funding is very difficult.

 

Hopefully we'll here some good news soon, but we should probably temper our enthusiasm a bit for now.

Correct on the 6th and St. Clair building McCleveland.  That building, as envisioned, will be 125,000 sq ft.  The 6th and Superior building (185,000 sq ft) also has a law firm lined up.  As I posted earlier, financing is not an issue for these two buildings, only the other components of the project.... at least for the time being.  My info is fresh as of today.

^Well that dominates  :)

This project is extremely exciting, even if we just get the 2 office buildings in the beginning! There are too many empty holes that need filling in and this is exactly what needs to be done! Hopefully everything goes smooth and we see ground breaking next spring like reported upthread

So we're talking some smaller buildings here (which I would expect given that this is the transition point scale-wise between the central business district and the Warehouse District). For comparison's sake, the U.S. Bank Building on Euclid at East 14th is about 200,000 square feet and 15 stories tall (p.s. thanks to Clevelandskyscrapers.com and MayDay for the great photo)...

 

The first building on St. Clair and 6th as I heard will be 7 stories.  The second building was slated at 12.

That makes sense.

The first building on St. Clair and 6th as I heard will be 7 stories. The second building was slated at 12.

 

Sounds about perfect.  I'm excited about putting something major on West Superior, which got shorted under Stark's plan.

Suprised that getting financing for residential would be more difficult than office.  The vacancy rate for rentals in this city is under 5%.  Guess they're looking to do condos not apartments.  Whoever cashes in on this rental market will make a ton of cash, wish it could be me.

I wonder if they are aware that the buiding stark's offices are in on the corner of 3rd and st. clair is historic (and of course covered in aluminum).  I've seen some pictures (the cambridge building) it's stunning.  It'd be pretty cool if they could find a way to just reuse the facade and incorporate it into the new structure. 

 

^W.28th:  They are looking to add both condos and apartments in the overall plan.

This is great news, any word on what law firms they have lined up? I rememeber hearing Baker Hostetler, currently in the National City Building, was looking for space. Does anyone think its possible they lured Tuker Ellis away from the flats project?

Calfee Halter was the other one that publicly said they were looking for space and has not since said that they've made arrangements to either stay or move somewhere else.

Do we know if there are any tenants coming from outside the Cleveland area or expaning on existing offices in Cleveland rather than just receiving tenants who are relocating from other offices.  I really worry they building new office space, especially in a no-growth area like Cleveland is just shifting around office tenants.

^Nope.

Do we know if there are any tenants coming from outside the Cleveland area or expaning on existing offices in Cleveland rather than just receiving tenants who are relocating from other offices.  I really worry they building new office space, especially in a no-growth area like Cleveland is just shifting around office tenants.

 

The law firms that are moving are doing so because they have outgrown their current space... so you can take your "no-growth" argument and shove it pal  :behind:

I mentioned this to some friends yesterday, and they immediately freaked out about losing parking.  They also believe no one uses transit and no one lives downtown.  They believe parking lots are the highest and best use of that area, and would consider looking for work in the suburbs if they lost any parking convenience whatsoever.  Also, they made the "no-growth" argument. 

 

We still have some convincing to do... 

Time for new friends. :)

I mentioned this to some friends yesterday, and they immediately freaked out about losing parking.  They also believe no one uses transit and no one lives downtown.  They believe parking lots are the highest and best use of that area, and would consider looking for work in the suburbs if they lost any parking convenience whatsoever.  Also, they made the "no-growth" argument.

 

:weird:

 

If there was a face for throwing up in my own mouth I would do that too.

It happens.  I spend a lot of time trying to convince people, people who should know better, that Cleveland is OK.  It doesn't make them bad people.  It just demonstrates how much difference of opinion there is on these issues.  They even said, at the end of the conversation, that if I can convince them I can convince anybody on earth.  Still working on it.

 

Just remember when you encounter these folks that they don't speak for everyone.  Not by a long shot.  If that were the case, these things wouldn't be getting built at all, yet we've had tremendous progress over this past decade.

I mentioned this to some friends yesterday, and they immediately freaked out about losing parking. They also believe no one uses transit and no one lives downtown. They believe parking lots are the highest and best use of that area, and would consider looking for work in the suburbs if they lost any parking convenience whatsoever. Also, they made the "no-growth" argument.

 

We still have some convincing to do...

 

Those arguments are pretty easy to defeat.

I mentioned this to some friends yesterday, and they immediately freaked out about losing parking.  They also believe no one uses transit and no one lives downtown.  They believe parking lots are the highest and best use of that area, and would consider looking for work in the suburbs if they lost any parking convenience whatsoever.  Also, they made the "no-growth" argument. 

 

We still have some convincing to do... 

 

Those arguments are pretty easy to defeat.

 

The fact the you think that illustrates the point (I think) 327 is trying to make.  While you might think those points are easy to refute, you are not the one in need of convincing.  You're talking about a lot more than simply winning a logical argument; you're trying to change a culture and behavior...it ain't that easy.

BOT! = back on topic.  :-D

Do we know if there are any tenants coming from outside the Cleveland area or expaning on existing offices in Cleveland rather than just receiving tenants who are relocating from other offices.  I really worry they building new office space, especially in a no-growth area like Cleveland is just shifting around office tenants.

 

 

The law firms that are moving are doing so because they have outgrown their current space... so you can take your "no-growth" argument and shove it pal  :behind:

 

No need to get personal here.  This is great news and I'm glad to hear the tenants that are moving in are not simply shifty office spaces like some many other companies in downtown

^I guess I am a little confused by your post.  Nothing above suggests this is anything more than shifting of space from one downtown location to another, although sometimes due to firms out growing current space.  I have heard nothing about firms coming from the suburbs or out of town for this project.  Does somebody know something concrete?

Do we know if there are any tenants coming from outside the Cleveland area or expaning on existing offices in Cleveland rather than just receiving tenants who are relocating from other offices. I really worry they building new office space, especially in a no-growth area like Cleveland is just shifting around office tenants.

 

 

The law firms that are moving are doing so because they have outgrown their current space... so you can take your "no-growth" argument and shove it pal :behind:

 

No need to get personal here. This is great news and I'm glad to hear the tenants that are moving in are not simply shifty office spaces like some many other companies in downtown

 

Don't be so sensitive champ.... it was all tongue-in-cheek.

 

To be clear, at least some of the firms that are moving are doing so because they have outgrown their current office and the buiding they are in now does not have enough contiguous space to accomodate their needs.  Baker Hostetler comes to mind - http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=10658.0

Good stuff on Baker Hostetler.  No offense taken.  Its hard to tell exactly what people are trying to say online.

Well, these were from the architect's site of the FORMER proposal but apparently these aren't renderings for the Weston/Gilbane proposal. I thought I'd post them before the architect deletes them.

 

 

 

 

 

some initial thoughts--

 

pic 4--looks horrible---too much glass to fit in with the rest of the district.

 

pic 5--the lower part of the building looks cool--great way to add an historical feel to a modern glass bldg.

 

pic 3--its important to have a constant street wall--which i think is what is happening in this image, but its hard to tell--see W6 between Rockwell and st. Clair on the west side of the street where there is green showing---is that 'behind' the buildings currently existing on this block on W6? (based on pic 1 it seems so--like an elevated park).

 

bigger question--is this project back on? new funding?

Looks pretty similar, though I haven't seen that last one before, or the back righthand building in the second to last picture.  Neither of which I particularly care for.

OK, how much of this from Bialosky + Partners is new, how much has been modified and how much is the same from Stark's proposal?

 

It looks nearly identical assuming the same color coding of blue for office/hotel, yellow for retail and red for residential.  Some slight changes, like the idea of lining Frankfurt exclusively with residential/retail.  I believe Stark's proposal had some office space on Frankfurt and W. 3rd.  Based on what I have heard, I assume the tall structure on the corner of W 3rd and Superior is supposed to be a hotel.

 

I, for one, would welcome the diversity that more glass structures would bring to the neighborhood.  I love the contrast between buildings like Pinnacle and Bradley, which are both beautiful in their own way IMHO.

I don't understand, are these new renderings? 

I've seen the plans for this project on skyscraper forums. Has the status changed? I thought it was on hold?

Are you missing what I'm saying???  This project along with other coming online will have street level retail?  Yes or no?

 

People who chose to live in locations like this most likely will be walkers;  Couples who decide to reduce the number of cars they currently have or chose another mode (bike, moped, skateboard, etc.).  To me that amount of parking is not necessary for a project of this scale.  There are still plenty of parking spaces in the immediate area.  It's overkill.

 

About 750 surface parking spaces will be detroyed with this project.  Take that and add 500 more spots for the new residential units and you're at 1,250 (assuming every one of those 500 residential units have just one person living in them, which they won't).  So that's only 1,150 more spots to cover 700,000 sq. ft. of office space plus restaurants and a hotel.  I don't think that's "overkill".

 

"People who chose to live in locations like this most likely will be walkers" is a great dream but just not true at this point in time.  I've lived downtown for 3 years and have a car.  My girlfriend has lived downtown for five years and has a car.  Her sister has lived downtown longer than that and has a car.  My girlfriend's friend in the Warehouse District has a car.  My sister was downtown for two years and had a car.  And she even worked downtown!  The person renting my condo downtown has a car and he walks less than a mile to work.  The vast majority of people I know that live downtown have cars.  It's just a fact.

 

And getting rid of parking spaces will NOT make people say, "Gee, there's no parking downtown so I guess I'll ride a bus."  It will make them say, "There's no parking downtown so I'm not going downtown."  Parking is the number one complaint I hear from suburbanities about visiting or living downtown. 

 

Americans (including Clevelanders) love their cars.  And people that talk about the values of public transportation (myself included) will not be able to change anyone's mind just by making downtown less car-friendly.

 

Just to chime in, this part of the city will still need parking. I have lived in the WHD for 3 years and I have never known a single person who lives around me without a car. My GF and I share one, which is a good intermediate step. I use mine a LOT less, but while I am not using it, it has to be near my condo waiting for a trip to my favorite store: WAL*MART.

^Don't go throwing that W word around here!

 

These plans look almost identical to Stark's vision.  I wonder if this is an indicator that the project is being pushed again?  With the Medical Mart and Convention Center a few years away, I was just wondering about this project just the other day.  It seems like it would have more potential now than it had in 2007 before lending ceased. 

I kind of like the look of brick for the first 3 or 4 stories and then glass towers. It has a nice feel to it, old and historic at street level but modern and sleek going up towards the sky. I noticed that they aren't including a buildin in the parking lot between the National terminal Building and Bingham any more.

 

As far as parking goes, even though there are a lot of surface lots (plus one two level parking lot), and I would need to do the math but I would think that two parking garages would have the same amount of parking spaces. Residents should be fine, commuters are going to b!tch and moan.  I seem to remember that one of these sets of plans had the parking structure internal to the block with the buildings on the perimeter.

OK, how much of this from Bialosky + Partners is new, how much has been modified and how much is the same from Stark's proposal?

 

 

 

 

 

 

The only image I haven't seen before is the last one (aka the others were presented as part of Stark's plan), with the glassy top. Looks like that would go at the southeast corner of West 6th and St. Clair.

So weston kept the same architects stark was using?  KJP were you given these as a press release?

These are just renderings pulled from Bialosky's website, no? I saw them a few weeks ago there.

 

They probably just have it up for their own marketing purposes, I would assume. Even though nothing got built, it was still a very large conceptual project for them.

 

The only image I haven't seen before is the last one (aka the others were presented as part of Stark's plan), with the glassy top. Looks like that would go at the southeast corner of West 6th and St. Clair.

 

The third and fourth images appear to be modified from Stark's plan but the fifth one is completely new to me.

 

These are just renderings pulled from Bialosky's website, no? I saw them a few weeks ago there.

 

They probably just have it up for their own marketing purposes, I would assume. Even though nothing got built, it was still a very large conceptual project for them.

 

Yes, they're from Bialosky's website. But it would seem likely that Weston would keep Bialosky on the job since Weston was a partner with Stark when he was proposing to build in the WHD. Now that Weston and Gilbane are pursuing this project without Stark, Bialosky would understandably want to stay working on this project -- which apparently is still in the early stages of developing financing.

 

Don't say I didn't warn ya! Discussion of whether someone can live in the Warehouse District without a car is interesting, but it's not relevant to this project/construction topic. There are several threads where such discussions are appropriate. Find them.

I'll believe this project when the crane is raised.