this is a fascinating idea. basically it is to use the trolleyville collection, which has to move out soon, on a waterfront rapid line extension or i guess maybe elsewhere. everybody seems to be on board with the idea, even calabrese. lucky as it would be a real shame if rta did not move fast to make this happen and we also lose the trolleyville collection. while the good news is the old trolleycars are being moved to the city and a new temp storage shed, the downside is that actual use of the cars still seems years off.

 

hmm, i cannot wait to hear you guys chime in and fill in the blanks on this one. i've heard of this before, but it seems like it really was way under the radar:

 

from the sun newspapers:

 

Trolleyville finds new home

Thursday, October 06, 2005

By RYAN McGILVRAY

OLMSTED TOWNSHIP _ San Francisco has the most famous one. Dallas, Los Angeles and Memphis have one, too. So do Seattle, Tampa and Portland, Ore. Soon enough, Cleveland hopes to follow suit.

 

As part of city plans to improve the waterfront, a trolley line is being proposed to encourage economic development along Lake Erie.

 

 

............

 

http://www.cleveland.com/sun/newssun/index.ssf?/base/features-0/1128617077222100.xml&coll=3

 

 

 

 

I'd love to see this happen. The Trolleyville collection is superb, with some of the earliest wood interurban cars, the big center-door cars from the Cleveland system, later interurbans from Illinois' Chicago, Aurora and Elgin, and at least one single-truck open car. The restorations are near-perfect.

 

The most wonderful thing I could envision would be extending the waterfront line across the lower deck of the Detroit-Superior Bridge and then down W 25th Street to the West Side Market. The antique trolleys would be perfect for weekend service on that route.

It is strange that this idea has not received more press.

I also like the idea of running the historic streetcars/interurbans on the lower level of the Detroit-Superior bridge and into Ohio City. But I think it would work to have these run daily (as with the McKinney Avenue streetcar line in Dallas), or complement a daily extension of modern LRT equipment (ala Portland).

 

KJP

I spoke to the guy from Trolleyville USA that was working their booth in the lower deck of the bridge on the day of our forum meet.  He said that they want to run the trolleys down East 9th from the waterfront to the Jake.  I don't know if transit officials are on board with that part of the idea, however.

I think the most common dream for us trolley-folk is that of reopening the lower deck of the Detroit-Superior Bridge.  And for good reason!  There has been a good deal of discussion about this on UrbanOhio and ideas diverge at West 25th over where the trolley should proceed from there. 

 

I would love to see a weekend "tourist" line head down West 25th on the weekends, but I don't think that daily service is needed on that route due to the large number of bus lines that already travel that route.  What I'd love to see is a line or two (or more!) continue either down W. 25th into Clark-Metro and Brooklyn Centre and Old Brooklyn, or another head up Lorain, and perhaps another continuing from the bridge up Detroit, towards all the tremendous investment going on at W. 65th and beyond towards Battery Park. 

 

Another idea, which I will try to present graphically in days to come, would use existing track along the rail line that follows (roughly) the West Shoreway from Whiskey Island towards Battery Park. 

 

Or, how about entirely new extensions east and west as we expand our Waterfront Line and convert the Shoreway into a boulevard?

 

And, one final brainstorm...how about a west bank trolley that runs from the end of the Detroit-Superior Bridge, down past all the new housing on the Superior Viaduct and into the heart of West Bank Parking Lot Town (spurring development there...duh!) and eventually connecting over a bridge to a spruced up Wendy Park???

 

Can you tell this has all crossed my mind a few times?

seems like the easiest starter route would be to use the old cars as demos on the waterfront line or elsewhere. also, east-west along the lakefront as the track is already in place.

 

what i like best right now is that they have agreed to take the old trolley cars into in the city and to store them right there on the lakefront. very clever -- that will keep them in rta's face so to speak! if the public can look at them at that site, like in a temporary shed or permanent museum setting as mentioned in the article, it's not much of a leap for patrons to say well hey there is the railroad track so why not put them back into use?!! i'd love to see that kind of broad and general public pressure on the city and rta!

 

 

yes, simply with more visibility, the public and political pressure to activate these trolleys will grow. 

 

question: these are going to be in a shed, right?  Are they going to be available for public viewing?  When I was in Brooklyn and was interested in the Brooklyn Historic Railway (now defunct), I was able to gain access to their shed where they were restoring old cars (including Cleveland cars), which made me that much more excited about the project! 

^those are the guys who wanted to run old trolleys from downtown brooklyn south on columbia street into red hook, right? too bad mta nixed that idea --- but it may come back given all the red hook gentrification going on now.

I think the most common dream for us trolley-folk is that of reopening the lower deck of the Detroit-Superior Bridge.  And for good reason!  There has been a good deal of discussion about this on UrbanOhio and ideas diverge at West 25th over where the trolley should proceed from there. 

 

I would love to see a weekend "tourist" line head down West 25th on the weekends, but I don't think that daily service is needed on that route due to the large number of bus lines that already travel that route.  What I'd love to see is a line or two (or more!) continue either down W. 25th into Clark-Metro and Brooklyn Centre and Old Brooklyn, or another head up Lorain, and perhaps another continuing from the bridge up Detroit, towards all the tremendous investment going on at W. 65th and beyond towards Battery Park. 

 

Another idea, which I will try to present graphically in days to come, would use existing track along the rail line that follows (roughly) the West Shoreway from Whiskey Island towards Battery Park. 

 

Or, how about entirely new extensions east and west as we expand our Waterfront Line and convert the Shoreway into a boulevard?

 

And, one final brainstorm...how about a west bank trolley that runs from the end of the Detroit-Superior Bridge, down past all the new housing on the Superior Viaduct and into the heart of West Bank Parking Lot Town (spurring development there...duh!) and eventually connecting over a bridge to a spruced up Wendy Park???

 

Can you tell this has all crossed my mind a few times?

 

MGD.......You're in my head again!

 

I was thinking of this.  (Ill up date this later)

 

1 - a HeavyRail line starting in the west bank of the flats that runs under west 25 street.  It would connections to other lines at Detroit/Superior Bridge; red line in ohio city and make our world class zoo easy to reach via public transportation.  get rid of surface bus line.  leave only one bus line for those who cant take rail and make it local

 

2a - a lightrail or trolley line starting at the old shaker rapid station in TowerCity, go up onto the lower level of Detroit Superior bridge travel under detroit to either lake or west blvd then return to grade and go up clifton as. continuing with local stops ut to Rocky River.  At the same time have a heavy rail or an "express" line runinng in the center of the light rail/trolley line that makes stops at major streets (w.25/detroit superior bridge, w 65, the lake/clifton turnoff) then continue under detroit to rocky river.

 

2b - Extend blue line onto DS bridge then at w 30 or so switch it over to the new lake front blvd to joint the above street line

 

3a. - A heavy rail line that starts at great northern mall, travelling under lorain.  Making stops at major intersections, and connect w/the redline at w.25, cross the lorain carneige bridge with stops at gateway (entrances can be on ontario and east ninth) , next stop 14 street, then somehow continue underground to Tri-c, then up broadway.

 

3b. - Second line that runs on the same route, that branches off and runs under harvardout to Tri-C & the business center.

 

4 - Run heavy rail line under St. Clair to Euclid Square mall area

 

- Use a street level trolleyline from the w25 station to Tremont , via kenilworth (sp) which connect the tremont neighborhood, park to Ohio city

- Use street car on Payne up to 55 or then up wade park.

- Run current blue line up to atleast 79 street

- use street car line on Lakeside from new wolstein development to the innerbelt

- use street car up east 9

- Extend Green line to 271, and build garage

- Extend Red line to Euclid Square

- reserve "right of way" to scranton pennisula for future use

 

with this you connect all points in downtown, and eliminate bus traffic; connect neighborhoods that are adjacent, provide multiple TOD opportunities, make the city more accessible to residents; make employers look as the city is well connected to have works easily travel thru it.  elimates the "i can't take public transit in cleveland cause it doesn't go anywhere excuse"

Yeah, all of this is great. But then you have to convince the GCRTA that rail is a good thing to expand.  I just don't see that from them either as a vision or in their actions.  Don't know whether that attidtude comes from the top down, but given that Cleveland already has a good rail-based transit system and is look upon with envy by most of Ohio's other transit systems because of that fact, they ought to be planning for more of a good thing.  It is well established that people who would never set foot on a bus will leap over the next guy in line to board a train.

 

I think using the Trolleyville fleet is an extraordinary idea and well worth pursuing.  Historic trolleys are a proven draw in cities like Dallas, New Orleans (before Katrina) and Little Rock.  They are especially well-suited for use in short haul corridors or for street-running on strategic urban corrdiors. I sincerely hope this idea isn't just studied to death and is pursued with every effort to make it happen.

Some of the ideas mentioned are good ones. But I'd be surprised if we see anything more than a short tourist line that can be funded with some private-sector donations and a small contribution from RTA.

 

And, when suggesting use of the lakefront freight tracks, the only way a streetcar can use the right of way is if it takes it over. Railroads no longer allow transit tracks to be built next to active freight tracks -- unless there is a 25 foot separation from the centerline of the nearest transit track to the centerline of the nearest freight track. Or, a concrete barrier between them is construction to allow for closer spacing of tracks. The latter would probably have to be done (or add more fill dirt and more bridge structures to widen the right of way), since the existing right of way has only one vacant track space.

 

Otherwise, the assumption is that the owner (Norfolk Southern) is willing to sell. Don't expect them to, because they operate 70 freight trains a day (and rising fast) over that route. To detour them to a different route, such as the Lakefront Bypass route for which I did a study for EcoCity Cleveland and the Cleveland Waterfront Coalition, would cost about $144 million or more.

 

Still, vacating the lakefront tracks for trolleys would require a new route for Amtrak trains and proposed Ohio Hub trains through the city, since operating the two types of rail equipment on the same tracks would violate federal regulations. The trolleys fail to meet federal railroad crash-impact standards. If a much heavier Amtrak train hit a trolley, it would destroy it. To meet the regulations, you would have guarantee a time-of-day separation. Since Amtrak's on-time performance is so abysmal, I don't think such a guarantee can be made.

 

Best to stick with dedicated transit rights of way, or a streetcar-type operation.

 

KJP

not much worry about an amtrak train hitting a lakefront trolley considering those trains come in at like 300am, long after rta goes to bed for the night at midnight or 1:00am.

 

regardless, w/o new rail investment it looks like it prob would only work as is on the rapid tracks, which lowers use to demo or novelty status. thats a shame, but it could still be ok since it will increase interest and awareness.

The four daily (er, nightly) Amtrak trains are scheduled to show up in Cleveland between 12:30 a.m. and 4 a.m. But in reality, they show up anywhere from 12:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m.....

 

KJP

I used to take the 3am train to Boston about 2-3 times a year when I was in high school.  It SUCKED!!!  But it was nice to get into beantown around dinner-time...

 

I'm very curious to see what happens here.  I know that a WFL extension is probably a ways off, but a tourist running of these historic trolleys on the weekends would do a good job of getting the word out.  And people do LOVE Lolly the Trolly, which is just a bus with a trolly's clothes on! 

 

What about the tracks on the viaduct?  were they kept for a reason? 

yeah my family came out here on amtrak a few times. they hated the local cle red-eye boarding/arrival times, but otherwise enjoyed it.

 

kjp we need a mussolini to run amtrak to get the trains in on time --hehe!

^Nah, what Amtrak needs is a stable capital funding source to keep the trains maintained, to expand mainline capacity nationwide to relieve freight traffic congestion, as well as the ability to contract out train servicing, maintenance and inspections, a more modern accounting system, and a few dozen other things.

 

Back to the subject of this thread, I think whatever route is selected for an historic trolley, ought to be placed where it could start literally laying the tracks for a better rail circulation system in the urban core. Below are two maps I composed a couple of years ago showing two variations of a built-out downtown rail system. My preference is to see the historic trolley be started using one of these lines. Proceed with a larger vision in mind....

 

 

Or maybe....

 

 

Or, one of the existing Shaker Lines could be extended from Tower City, directly over the Detroit-Superior bridge to Lakewood (and beyond?). In that case, all that might be needed is to break through some concrete and dirt which separates the Tower City trackage from the east portal of the Detroit-Superior bridge's lower level. Some utilities would probably have to be relocated, however.

 

Those are my thoughts.

 

KJP

 

Of course you're right on KJP...  Extending east and west along the lakefront is such an obvious component of the lakefront plan and should be some of the most feasible with regard to the amount of infrastructure development that will need to take place anyways. 

 

The Downtown loop stuff also seems so obvious, but it somehow still feels like a pipe dream...

 

How come no one ever talks about a southern extension?  Along Broadway or W. 25th/Pearl or somehow through the valley?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 77 our most congested highway?  This could help alleviate some of that...

I know this is going to sound like a complete shock, but I developed a concept for a southern routing! It would basically follow Route 21 from the suburbs north to Granger Road, then railroad alignments from there north.

 

Another routing is south on West 25th, which is a very heavily use transit route.

 

KJP

Is any of the subway tunnel left under W. 25th?  It sounds like it went quite some distance back in the day.

a county engineer told me that it ends before the high rise public housing complex, where it used to go to street level.

I was under the impression that it went down to Brooklyn Center before coming up.  Never mind then.

That's correct. On both West 25th and Detroit Avenue, you can tell by the widths of the streets where both subway ramps were located. The one on Detroit is more apparent, as the street suddenly widens and then narrows again in front of the long, brick building converted into apartments a few years ago (I forget the name of it). But the on-street parking for it occupies what was the westbound lanes of Detroit Avenue, between West 28th and West 29th. The West 25th ramp was located between Church and Franklin, but West 25th doesn't have the same abrupted changes in its width anymore to clearly indicated where the ramp was.

 

Both ramps still exist below the streets, just filled in. In 1994, I saw where the subway tunnels end at the spot at which each fill begins. And the fills are limited only to the streetcar ramps. It wouldn't take much at all to excavated them, but the walls would likely have to be reinforced and some utility lines relocated, which will probably constitute the bulk of the cost.

 

KJP

I was bored, so......(see previous message for description and available funding "source")

 

Oh, and by the way, make the downtown-Ohio City streetcar loop fare-free, with the support of downtown businesses. RTA is already trying to secure support from the Downtown Cleveland Partnership for its replica "trolleys" (er, buses).

Seems my idea has drawn a big yawn!

I think it a really good idea, especially if phase II could be done simultaneously, or very closely on the heels of phase one.  Otherwise, the trolley wouldn't be connecting a lot of useful destinations that aren't already connected by rail, or fairly a fairly close walk to another station.  It would be giving a much better density of stops, however, which could make it more usuable to a wider range of people than the Red Line alone.

 

I really like the idea of a fare-free zone.  I know that it was a popular idea in Seattle.  I don't know who else has done it.

 

Is there any way to bring the trolley further into Ohio City?  Perhaps even to W. 65th.  Could a trolley run down those streets with modern traffic and safety design standards?

Only problem I see with your plans KJP is how you allways want to run rail down E 17. It is where the coveted E 17/18 parking garge near cleveland state is. It has 3 entrances to it, but ONLY the E 17 one is ever used. As its one of the few garages on campus students will sit with their car in idle waiting to get into the garage most of the afternoon. they go all the way up E 17 to euclid ave and go about 1/2 way to E18 all lined up to get in, a few even lurk down to chester. Also from time to time trucks for playhouse square shows, line up all along the road too. Untll cleveland state does something to remedy that type of activity

X, Denver also has a fare-free zone.

 

Good points, Smackem. Maybe some things could be moved around, like this?....

 

i'm not yawning!  Just too busy to check this out!  I'll have more later, but I can tell you that the new parking deck access doesn't need to be created.  There's already a second entrance/exit on Chester that is never open.  Shift the booth over there and you've got your problem solved without having to put a driveway through CSU's open space!

But I think Smackem has a point about cars lining up to get into the parking deck. There needs to be some place to cue them up to get in, and it would be better do it on a driveway than on a through street, let alone a busy one like Chester. Moving the truck docks for Playhouse Square would also allow a cover to be added to protect stage props and such from the elements. And, I'd move the restaurant that's behind the theaters to the corner of East 17th and Chester, giving it better visibility.

 

Here's another thing... If East 17th from Euclid to Rockwell, and Rockwell/Frankfort from East 17th to West 3rd were donated as trolley/LRT-only rights of way, that represents about 267,000 square feet of downtown real estate. At current downtown real estate prices of $20-$50 per square foot, that's an additional local contribution of $5.34 million to $13.35 million. Add that to the $10 million to $40 million for the contribution of the subway decks of the two bridges, that could mean a local contribution of $15 million to $53 million. If that can be used to leverage a 75 percent federal share, the federal share could range from $60 million to $212 million.

 

If it's $60 million, it might be possible to build the full loop (West 25th, Lorain/Carnegie, East 17th, Rockwell/Frankfort, Superior/Detroit), but it might have to be built as a single-track line with second-hand rail, not have subway stations at the ends of the bridges, and use only the historic streetcars that NORM has. If it's $212 million, it could be double-tracked, with subway stations at the ends of the bridges, totally rebuild East 17th plus Rockwell/Frankfort with historic treatments (cobblestones, decorative lighting, etc) and include modern tram cars, in addition to the historic stuff.

 

Just pondering....

I think the methodology your talking about, KJP, is very similar to the one that the Portland Streetcar used.  Although they were counting on a larger amount of new construction as well in the Hoyt Street Yards project.  I began doing some research on this while living there, but never got very far.  It's interesting to note, though, that the Portland Streetcar is  a separate entity from Tri-Met, the Portland version of RTA.  They have their own funding, etc...and it's been a huge success!

I LOVE the idea of a downtown-OC-West Side trolley line!  KJP, I couldn't quite tell from your picture whether or not your proposed loop goes through Tremont?  One of my biggest pet peeves living in OC is how difficult it is to get from OC to Tremont on public transportation.  A loop going through both neighborhoods would be fabulous (especially if it were free!).

If Dayton ever gets around to building that heritage streetcar system they could move it here....which probably would be appropriate since this was an interurban hub and they used to build interurban cars here...

 

If Dayton ever gets around to building that heritage streetcar system they could move it here....which probably would be appropriate since this was an interurban hub and they used to build interurban cars here...

 

Get your dirty hands and mind off of our trolleys!

well said wimwar!

I guess my calculation was a little low as to a street's value! Tomorrow (11-15), RTA's board is expected to approve acquiring parcels for $1.4 million to extend East 17th Street about 400 feet south from Euclid Avenue to Prospect Avenue. That's only about 20,000 square feet of property (or $71 per square foot). My earlier estimate for donating the existing portions of East 17th and Rockwell/Frankfort assumed $20-$50 per square foot. Maybe we could get an even larger local share (and thus a larger federal match) by contributing those streets as streetcar/LRT rights of way...

 

Anyway, here's what RTA's street extension is proposed to look like:

 

 

That would be nice if 17th ran straight through.  Right now, it's just two parking lots.

Streetcars could travel Waterfront Line

Tuesday, November 29, 2005

Tom Breckenridge

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Dozens of old-fashioned streetcars will likely find a home in downtown Cleveland, and one of them could be plying RTA's Waterfront Line within a year.

 

Cleveland has signed a lease with Lake Shore Electric Railway Inc., allowing the nonprofit to build a 500-foot-long trolley barn just east of the Waterfront Line's eastern terminal.

 

The site is east of East Ninth Street and south of a city-owned parking lot. The railway group includes the Brookins family, which operated Trolleyville U.S.A. in Olmsted Township.

 

.......

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1133256797178001.xml&coll=2

wonderful!  still no talk of an extension, but this is a start at least...

 

what about building the permanent shed on the West Bank of the Flats and running a historic line through there, up the hill, past Stonebridge and down West 25th to Market Square?  I know they're planning on doing some work with the park there and this could be added in as a terminus for the historic streetcar?  It would also add to the allure of West 25th and increase development potential on the West Bank's surface lots... eventually, this can jump over the old river channel to Whiskey Island and could potentially connect to Downtown via the Detroit-Superior Bridge... just an idea...

Or, it would be nice to go south through the new Avenue District development into Playhouse Square/CSU.    Just dreamin..

You won't see any rail extensions anytime soon. RTA is beset with high (and rising) operating costs, to the point that it has their staff scared. Plus, there is a pre-disposition at RTA that rail always costs more than bus, which obviously isn't the case in high-density traffic situations. They will argue we don't have high-density transit traffic -- which bolsters the case for TOD to create the traffic. Unfortunately, while RTA says TOD is a priority, their actions show it clearly is not. There are zero staff persons dedicated to TOD activities. RTA has only two staff persons who do undertake TOD, but have other planning duties as well.

 

So, the short answer is that you won't see rail expansions for many years. Even the concept of consolidating two rail routes into the median of the Opportunity Corridor is getting a cold shoulder at RTA, due to a kneejerk reaction against rail, prompted by their fear of rising operating costs (even though the rail consolidation would certainly reduce operating costs!). It's not a good time to be a rail advocate in Cleveland.

well, there went my good mood!

Sorry!

From KJP and the News Sun, 1/12/06:

 

 

Historic trolleys a goal to revitalize downtown

Thursday, January 12, 2006

By KEN PRENDERGAST

The News Sun

 

Downtown Cleveland's lakefront soon could feature more than just new housing, offices and shops. It might gain an historic and fun way to get around.

 

Later this year, a collection of antique electric trolleys of the former Trolleyville USA, now called Lakeshore Electric Railway, will be moving downtown. RTA has given Lake Shore Electric a green signal to build a car barn at the end of the Waterfront Line near East 26th Street. The 50-car collection has called Olmsted Township home for more than four decades.

 

........

 

http://www.cleveland.com/sun/newssun/index.ssf?/base/features-0/113708792627090.xml&coll=3

 

I didn't realize that article ran somewhere in our 25-paper chain, and actually, it shouldn't have run because some changes and even corrections needed to be made. The revised article was submitted today for next week's papers.

Sounds good.  How much of a done deal is this (besides RTA's "green light?").  I checked my map, and there doesn't seem to be much in the area near E. 26th which is hemmed in by the Shoreway/Burke on one side and the major railroad junction, on the South.  Also, will this new trolley museum block possible expansion of the Waterfront Line along the lakeshore east?  It shouldn't.  This is something that must be looked at.

It's not a done deal. Lake Shore Electric still has to raise enough funds for the $2 million car barn. They aren't going to have the funding in hand in time, so they need their lease extended at their current location in Olmsted Falls. While they're getting a $1 lease for the East 26th Street location, their current lease in Olmsted Falls is $5,000 per month and they don't have the funding for that. They still have a lot to do and the original article didn't convey that. The new article will.

KJP, I look forward to hearing the updates.  The posted article does sound more positive than what you're saying the reality is right now.  Of all the existing and proposed museums in Cleveland, this would be the one I'd be happiest to join!

 

Of course, the third initiative would be the most exciting.  I plan on working for that personally...

I like Peabody's idea in the Chinatown pictures thread of having trolleys connect Chinatown and St. Clair-Superior to downtown.  I think that would make a lot of sense if the warehouses in the neighborhood were converted into housing.