Maybe it's just me, but I see such types of mobs of people as a problem and something that should be prevented if at all possible.

 

It's not just you that sees it as a problem. 

 

BTW, maybe the mods want to move all of this discussion over the "Suburban Crime and Safety" thread to keep this one clean.

BTW, maybe the mods want to move all of this discussion over the "Suburban Crime and Safety" thread to keep this one clean.

 

I agree.  After experiencing it yesterday, I checked the forum today expecting to find some discussion in that thread, not this one.

I agree... this post should probably move with the rest, but the discussion is here at the moment... I just came across this article, which talks about violent "flash mobs" of teens as a national phenomenon.  It also argues we shouldn't call them flash mobs, so as to not besmirch the peaceful ones, but that's beside the point.

 

http://www.avclub.com/philadelphia/articles/av-club-editor-injured-in-flash-mob-attack-in-phil,58134/

 

Kudos to the mayor.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/sunpress/2011/06/fights_force_heights_to_take_b.html

Wow! Cleveland Heights makes an emergency law that all juveniles are arrested between the hours of 6:00 PM and 6:00 AM if at Coventry or Cedar-Lee without a parent of guardian.  Way to take action...wonder where they will go?

Wow! Cleveland Heights makes an emergency law that all juveniles are arrested between the hours of 6:00 PM and 6:00 AM if at Coventry or Cedar-Lee without a parent of guardian.  Way to take action...wonder where they will go?

 

Hmm, this should make Clevelander17 happy....?   

Kudos to the mayor.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/sunpress/2011/06/fights_force_heights_to_take_b.html

 

Let's take this conversation over here.  Looks like you drove by one of those arrests.  Hopefully, the other two (charged with aggravated riot) were the a-holes responsible for instigating the fight at Coventry and Hampshire about 10 minutes before the fair ended.  Also glad to hear that they are just a bit too old for juvy.  Welcome to the big house fellas :)

 

^^^Hmmmm.  Probably a necessary move, but it won't prevent the 18-21 year old crowd from loitering.  In all honesty, that is the group that causes more problems than the juveniles.  I suppose if you take away the packs of 15-16 year old girls with their sh!t hanging out, you might manage to indirectly eliminate that other group.  I also wonder how they are going to enforce it.  Is it a flat out prohibition preventing even casual passerbys?  Or will it only be enforced against loiterers? 

 

Throwing Cedar-Lee in there has Kelly written all over it.  BTW, "Mayor" is actually a bit of a misnomer for Kelly.  He is the president of council, which CH calls 'Mayor'.  The City Manager, Bob Downey, really runs CH as a more traditional mayor would.

Much better article in the Heights Observer than what the PD had..

 

 

In aftermath of Coventry disturbance council passes emergency curfew law

by Lewis Pollis

 

Council Member and chair of the Public Safety and Health Committee Kenneth Montlack reads the resolution to establish the new curfew. Photo by Lewis Pollis.

View Image Gallery

A new ordinance passed June 29 at a special meeting of Cleveland Heights City Council prohibits minors from being on public grounds in the Coventry Village and Cedar-Lee business districts after 6 p.m. and institutes fines for parents of children who are found to be out after curfew, effective immediately.

 

The legislation, drafted in response to “an accelerating problem of unsupervised youth” over the last few months—and highlighted by an incident of overcrowding and confusion at the Coventry Street Fair on June 26—establishes “on an emergency basis a curfew for unsupervised persons under 18 years of age within the Coventry Village and Cedar-Lee commercial areas between the hours of 6 p.m. and 6 a.m.”

 

http://www.heightsobserver.org/read/2011/06/29/in-aftermath-of-coventry-disturbancecouncil-passes-emergency-curfew-law

It's a good question. Where can these kids go? They need to go somewhere. Expecting them to obediently stay at home and do nothing is unrealistic on every level. I was a 'good' kid and still spent a lot of time wandering around with my friends. If cops had showed up and told me to go home, I would have, but if they'd done it everywhere we went, well...

 

Pretty strong reaction from CH. Curious to see enforcement - how will they check?

Severance? 

Well, it's a bit draconian but what else can Cleveland Hts do? It's not like this problem will go away on it's own.

If they're serious about enforcing this, I think the crowds of kids will move elsewhere and the problem will have to be addressed by the neighboring city. The chronic problem of lack of something for these kids to do remains, and idle hands and all that.

Wow! Cleveland Heights makes an emergency law that all juveniles are arrested between the hours of 6:00 PM and 6:00 AM if at Coventry or Cedar-Lee without a parent of guardian.  Way to take action...wonder where they will go?

 

Hmm, this should make Clevelander17 happy....? 

 

Not really, no.  It's a sad commentary on society that so many parents have let their kids run wild that society has to take such drastic steps.  It should help a bit in the short term, but the damage has been done in the past 15-20 years and Cleveland Heights will likely never be what it used to be.

I do feel bad for the Grog Shop.  I hope they are able to work out a comprimise somehow.  It is going to be weird seeing Coventry at night without teenagers hangin on the corner.

 

On a larger scale, I think the article posted by 327 is very interesting and disturbing.  This is only going to get worse.... everywhere.  Flash mobs (or whatever you want to call them in this situation) are becoming dangerously popular.  They create an anarchist psyche even among kids who are otherwise decently behaved.  Mix them with the kids who are not, and it is going to be trouble.  Mob mentality at its worst.

 

^What did CH used to be that it is not now?  If anything, I would say that Coventry, C-F, and C-L are all better than they have ever been (at least in my lifetime).  A big part of the reason that these kids showed up there was because it was such a vibrant atmosphere (see photo thread I posted).

Yeah I thought of the Grog Shop's situation, too. 

 

I'm not talking about the recent success of the business districts.  I'm sure they're doing as well as they have in decades.  I'm talking about the type of culture in which these types problems arise that has pervaded Cleveland Heights well beyond the prime retail areas.  Social media is a bit of a red herring, though it certainly has made things much worse.  I suspect you'll probably disagree (also part of the problem in my opinion), and that's fine, but I won't push this line of argumentation much further because I know where it ends up.

^I like that. Very diplomatic and politically correct, but the point comes across pretty clearly.

I think your problem is just with kids in general..... a sign that you are getting older.  There is nothing unique going on in CH.  And, with the social media tools available today, I could definitely see these kinds of instances happening back in our day.  As a matter of fact, they did happen.  I remember the bicenteniel problems in the Flats, the Brush HS riot, the CH-SH rumble at Shaker HS, a nasty one between some Iggy kids and CH kids involving baseball bats, the Mentor HS football game riot.... all around the the mid-90's 

 

May I suggest taking some advice from that wise fellow of the 'custodial arts', Carl -  "The kids haven't changed... you have."  It seems for just about every American, the older you get, the more you frown upon the younger generations.  Pretty soon you will be one of those old guys in a moose hat shaking your fist and telling everyone who will listen that this country is 'going to hell in a handbasket' and that you used to be able to buy [fill in the blank] for a nickel.

 

All that said, I do encourage efforts to control unruly behavoir and this specific incident (given last year and the escalating problem social media is fueling) definitely deserved a very firm reaction.

Wow! Cleveland Heights makes an emergency law that all juveniles are arrested between the hours of 6:00 PM and 6:00 AM if at Coventry or Cedar-Lee without a parent of guardian.  Way to take action...wonder where they will go?

 

Hmm, this should make Clevelander17 happy....? 

 

Not really, no.  It's a sad commentary on society that so many parents have let their kids run wild that society has to take such drastic steps.  It should help a bit in the short term, but the damage has been done in the past 15-20 years and Cleveland Heights will likely never be what it used to be.

 

Oh Please.  Like you were an angel!  I'm not being an apologist and saying what these kids did was right, but you and a few others, think we should live in a utopia and everything should work a certain way.

 

How do you know these kids are from bad families? How do you know the kids involved were not protecting themselves from the aggressors?  Where you there and know both sides of the story?

I kind of agree with Hts121 on this. I don't see things being that much different from where I grew up either. If you want to go back to a time when it was radically different, you need to go back to when most families farmed, because after you got out of school, you had to come home and work the farm, you didn't wander around with your phone and nothing to do looking for people to hang out with and having a bunch of hormones and energy and nothing to direct it into. Certainly in the 50s you had drag races and rumbles and youth congregating in masses, though perhaps it took longer for word to spread as to where people were gathering, and on through subsequent decades.

 

That being said, as an officially "older" person now (over 40), I do feel the irritation about this type of thing. The mobs at the St. Patrick's Day parade were just minutes away from affecting my family in a negative way and what was a crowded and challenging day for the 3 of us could have quickly turned to one where I was fearful from my child and regretful I attended. Parents want a safe place for their families to be able to gather, and older people want a safe place where they can shop or browse books or whatever without these kinds of troubles for youth. Outside of putting them to work, the best thing to do is have youth-oriented places where they can hang out in a safe and monitored fashion. Arnold's, if you will, but perhaps with some security guards to account for the unfortunate increase of everyone carrying some kind of a weapon these days. You never saw any families hanging out in Arnold's becaues they knew not to go there as it was a kid's hangout, or anyone complaining about all the kids hanging around and getting into trouble. I mean, I know it was TV, but you get my drift.

I think your problem is just with kids in general..... a sign that you are getting older.  There is nothing unique going on in CH.  And, with the social media tools available today, I could definitely see these kinds of instances happening back in our day.  As a matter of fact, they did happen.  I remember the bicenteniel problems in the Flats, the Brush HS riot, the CH-SH rumble at Shaker HS, a nasty one between some Iggy kids and CH kids involving baseball bats, the Mentor HS football game riot.... all around the the mid-90's 

 

May I suggest taking some advice from that wise fellow of the 'custodial arts', Carl -  "The kids haven't changed... you have."  It seems for just about every American, the older you get, the more you frown upon the younger generations.  Pretty soon you will be one of those old guys in a moose hat shaking your fist and telling everyone who will listen that this country is 'going to hell in a handbasket' and that you used to be able to buy [fill in the blank] for a nickel.

 

All that said, I do encourage efforts to control unruly behavoir and this specific incident (given last year and the escalating problem social media is fueling) definitely deserved a very firm reaction.

 

Sure, I have my issues with today's youth in general, and I understand how each generation thinks the one that follows theirs is out of control.  But let me be clear, there is something else going on, something else that has happened to the Heights area in the past few decades, that transcends age.  I think it's more than just an incorrect perception, but even if it were that simple, it's something that scares some potential visitors from our business districts and something that deters many potential home buyers from even considering the area.

I had to google "Arnold's" and then "Arnold's kids hangout" to figure that one out.  :laugh:

^^That's kind of vague.  I would say that, as with any diverse neighborhood, you always have had and always will have "something that scares some potential visitors from our business districts and something that deters many potential home buyers from even considering the area."  For those who won't consider buying, it is usually because they want a more suburban, more homogeneous setting.  For those who won't visit, it's their loss.  But I don't blame them.  The prices at Beachwood Place scare me away from visiting and there is something about Westlake that deters me (and many others) from even considering the area.  To each his own.

Wow! Cleveland Heights makes an emergency law that all juveniles are arrested between the hours of 6:00 PM and 6:00 AM if at Coventry or Cedar-Lee without a parent of guardian.  Way to take action...wonder where they will go?

 

Hmm, this should make Clevelander17 happy....? 

 

Not really, no.  It's a sad commentary on society that so many parents have let their kids run wild that society has to take such drastic steps.  It should help a bit in the short term, but the damage has been done in the past 15-20 years and Cleveland Heights will likely never be what it used to be.

 

Oh Please.  Like you were an angel!  I'm not being an apologist and saying what these kids did was right, but you and a few others, think we should live in a utopia and everything should work a certain way.

 

How do you know these kids are from bad families? How do you know the kids involved were not protecting themselves from the aggressors?  Where you there and know both sides of the story?

 

I was there.  I saw some of the fights.  I saw mobs of kids rushing across Mayfield Road from altercation to altercation trying to see what was going on, not caring about blocking traffic or anything else.  It was anarchy.

 

You're right, it's wrong of me to assume that these kids came from bad families.  I mean, this type of behavior on a Sunday evening by hundreds of kids is perfectly normal.  :clap:

 

Good communities are being ruined while otherwise level-headed people stand by and make excuses for this nonsense. 

I think your problem is just with kids in general..... a sign that you are getting older.  There is nothing unique going on in CH.  And, with the social media tools available today, I could definitely see these kinds of instances happening back in our day.  As a matter of fact, they did happen.  I remember the bicenteniel problems in the Flats, the Brush HS riot, the CH-SH rumble at Shaker HS, a nasty one between some Iggy kids and CH kids involving baseball bats, the Mentor HS football game riot.... all around the the mid-90's 

 

May I suggest taking some advice from that wise fellow of the 'custodial arts', Carl -  "The kids haven't changed... you have."  It seems for just about every American, the older you get, the more you frown upon the younger generations.  Pretty soon you will be one of those old guys in a moose hat shaking your fist and telling everyone who will listen that this country is 'going to hell in a handbasket' and that you used to be able to buy [fill in the blank] for a nickel.

 

All that said, I do encourage efforts to control unruly behavoir and this specific incident (given last year and the escalating problem social media is fueling) definitely deserved a very firm reaction.

 

Sure, I have my issues with today's youth in general, and I understand how each generation thinks the one that follows theirs is out of control.  But let me be clear, there is something else going on, something else that has happened to the Heights area in the past few decades, that transcends age.  I think it's more than just an incorrect perception, but even if it were that simple, it's something that scares some potential visitors from our business districts and something that deters many potential home buyers from even considering the area.

 

Then what is it?  I really want to know!

It's more or less institutionalized anarchism in which lawlessness, antisocial, even downright sociopathic behavior is accepted, even encouraged, among certain households and individuals. How you rectify this in the real world is beyond me since our communities and country as a whole are terrified to take the necessary measures, or even approach the subject without carefully used rhetoric and empty, overarching, and ultimately silly measures, else be branded insensitive, xenophobes, or downright racist.

 

Taking a punish-everybody approach will be about as effective as harassing 95-year-old white grandmothers in airports for security purposes. Yeah right. Political correctness has DECIMATED pragmatism and reality in our country, and we keep making up solutions that have nothing to do with the problems.

Nobody's 'making excuses', Clevelander17.  Let that one go and the conversation can progress.  Simply by saying this is nothing new or that it goes on elsewhere (see much, much, much worse russian video I posted a couple pages back) is not to excuse the behavoir, but simply to point out that it is not somehow unique to CH, as you continue to imply.

I was there.  I saw some of the fights.  I saw mobs of kids rushing across Mayfield Road from altercation to altercation trying to see what was going on, not caring about blocking traffic or anything else.  It was anarchy.

 

You're right, it's wrong of me to assume that these kids came from bad families.  I mean, this type of behavior on a Sunday evening by hundreds of kids is perfectly normal.  :clap:

 

Good communities are being ruined while otherwise level-headed people stand by and make excuses for this nonsense. 

 

 

You saw "some" fights?  Anarchy?  REALLY?!  Anarchy?  Again, you saw a fight, but doesn't not tell you what type of family each individual comes from?  That's like assuming someones financial status based on how they are dressed one day.

 

 

Don't insult my intelligence with that passive-aggressive accusatory BS!

 

 

Who, perchance are you referring to as those that "stand by"?

It's more or less institutionalized anarchism in which lawlessness, antisocial, even downright sociopathic behavior is accepted, even encouraged, among certain households and individuals. How you rectify this in the real world is beyond me since our communities and country as a whole are terrified to take the necessary measures, or even approach the subject without carefully used rhetoric and empty, overarching, and ultimately silly measures, else be branded insensitive, xenophobes, or downright racist.

 

Taking a punish-everybody approach will be about as effective as harassing 95-year-old white grandmothers in airports for security purposes. Yeah right. Political correctness has DECIMATED pragmatism and reality in our country, and we keep making up solutions that have nothing to do with the problems.

Says the man afraid of his own shadow. ::)

It's more or less institutionalized anarchism in which lawlessness, antisocial, even downright sociopathic behavior is accepted, even encouraged, among certain households and individuals. How you rectify this in the real world is beyond me since our communities and country as a whole are terrified to take the necessary measures, or even approach the subject without carefully used rhetoric and empty, overarching, and ultimately silly measures, else be branded insensitive, xenophobes, or downright racist.

 

Taking a punish-everybody approach will be about as effective as harassing 95-year-old white grandmothers in airports for security purposes. Yeah right. Political correctness has DECIMATED pragmatism and reality in our country, and we keep making up solutions that have nothing to do with the problems.

 

If I can sum this up, are you simply saying that racial profiling should be allowed and utilized whenever practical?  Is that your solution?  Should every member of one race suffer because of the actions of a few?  Should you pay reparations for slavery?  Don't confuse political correctness with staying within the bounds of our constitution.

It's more or less institutionalized anarchism in which lawlessness, antisocial, even downright sociopathic behavior is accepted, even encouraged, among certain households and individuals. How you rectify this in the real world is beyond me since our communities and country as a whole are terrified to take the necessary measures, or even approach the subject without carefully used rhetoric and empty, overarching, and ultimately silly measures, else be branded insensitive, xenophobes, or downright racist.

 

Taking a punish-everybody approach will be about as effective as harassing 95-year-old white grandmothers in airports for security purposes. Yeah right. Political correctness has DECIMATED pragmatism and reality in our country, and we keep making up solutions that have nothing to do with the problems.

 

If I can sum this up, are you simply saying that racial profiling should be allowed and utilized whenever practical?  Is that your solution?  Should every member of one race suffer because of the actions of a few?  Should you pay reparations for slavery?  Don't confuse political correctness with staying within the bounds of our constitution.

Not just race but culture as well.

^^And then there's that counter-argument. I'm saying every situation is unique and you have to look at the facts to assess a reasonable response. Pragmatism should be the goal, not political correctness. 

 

With airports, it makes no sense to screen white grandmothers who are 95. It does nothing to stem terrorism; hell, it doesn't even provide the illusion that we're any safer, so what benefit does it serve? When let's say virtually 100% of the terrorists match a certain profile, then there's no purpose in searching grandma. How does that particular search or feeling up some 6-year-old kid make you or me any safer? It serves no purpose other than to pretend we're all suffering together, or that we should all be blind to reality, or whatever the hell TSA is wasting our time with at airports.

 

With the Coventry Street Fair, hell, there is no easy answer. But when you look at the major fairs that have been shut down in the Greater Cleveland area, and you see the same characters/instigators basically matching the same profile - let me guess, teenage/young adult, black, screaming, running in large groups, intimating, disrespectful to patrons, possibly violent, standing in front of traffic, lippy with cops, and so on - you can either pretend that it's racist to point out this fact (jeez, I wonder if I'll be called that in a post or two), or you can actually figure a way to prevent yet another major attraction from closing due to the actions of a few. This punish-everybody approach I just cannot comprehend.

 

 

^^And then there's that counter-argument. I'm saying every situation is unique and you have to look at the facts to assess a reasonable response. Pragmatism should be the goal, not political correctness. 

 

With airports, it makes no sense to screen white grandmothers who are 95. It does nothing to stem terrorism; hell, it doesn't even provide the illusion that we're any safer, so what benefit does it serve? When let's say virtually 100% of the terrorists match a certain profile, then there's no purpose in searching grandma. How does that particular search or feeling up some 6-year-old kid make you or me any safer? It serves no purpose other than to pretend we're all suffering together, or that we should all be blind to reality, or whatever the hell TSA is wasting our time with at airports.

 

With the Coventry Street Fair, hell, there is no easy answer. But when you look at the major fairs that have been shut down in the Greater Cleveland area, and you see the same characters/instigators basically matching the same profile - let me guess, teenage/young adult, black, screaming, running in large groups, intimating, disrespectful to patrons, possibly violent, standing in front of traffic, lippy with cops, and so on - you can either pretend that it's racist to point out this fact (jeez, I wonder if I'll be called that in a post or two), or you can actually figure a way to prevent yet another major attraction from closing due to the actions of a few. This punish-everybody approach I just cannot comprehend.

 

 

But I guess it's ok to screen a 95 year old Asian, Black, Indian or Latin Grand mother??  :wtf:  Just because they are white and 95 does not ensure they are a good person or innocent.  They could possible be made to do something bad, by someone younger in their family who is rotten to the core.

 

What fairs have been shut down by blacks?

Again, I'm confused as to what you are saying?  No, you are not a racist for pointing out that the instigators of the fight at the Coventry Street Fair were at least mostly young blacks.  I think that is pretty undeniable.  But were all black kids causing trouble at the fair?  Cerrtainly not.  Is your preferred solution to ban young black kids from attending the street fair?  Please expand.  Did you do any analysis on their eye colors?  I bet they were all brown and those poor blue eyed folks are forced to suffer.  How about we just let blonde's in because the people causing the trouble all seem to have dark hair?  Should Vancouver ban white people from its sports venues?

 

As to the airport screenings, you can either do them on everybody or do them on nobody.  That's not political correctness.  That is Uncle Sam following the dictates of our constitution.  And by now you should realize that not all terrorists are Arab.  We have the Jacob Laufer's and Underwear Bobmers and Tim McVail's to worry about too.

 

Let me just say that if you separate and segregate, this will only get worse.

Nobody's 'making excuses', Clevelander17.  Let that one go and the conversation can progress.  Simply by saying this is nothing new or that it goes on elsewhere (see much, much, much worse russian video I posted a couple pages back) is not to excuse the behavoir, but simply to point out that it is not somehow unique to CH, as you continue to imply.

 

You're right, it's not unique to Cleveland Heights.  We see it all the time in East Cleveland, Euclid, Maple Heights, over large chunks of Cleveland proper, etc.  That's besides the point and although it's not a direct excuse, it's a deflection.  We're talking about Cleveland Heights and how to solve this city's problems.  What's become acceptable in other nearby cities should not be acceptable in CH.

^(to HTS) It's complicated and I don't have all the answers. The airport thing is a different situation because the constitution doesn't fully apply in an airport as it does outside, if I'm not mistaken, so there is some gray area there. I mean, the 4th amendment issues alone are pretty complex.

 

"But the Fourth Amendment, along with most of the Constitution, does not apply in the airport the same way it does in most public spaces. U.S. airports are a Constitutional "twilight zone" - the rights you have in the outside morph once you step inside the terminal, and it has been this way long before September 11."

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/11/23/national/main7082555.shtml

 

Now as to the Coventry Fair all-black-teens-didn't-cause-the-problems but all-problems-were-caused-by-black-teens (you get what I'm saying), at least there should be solutions discussed or thrown around that acknowledge this reality. I don't exactly have a solution in mind - and in a sense it's irrelevant because, as I said earlier, political correctness is the end-all these days, and maybe there really isn't an answer, maybe these kinds of fairs don't work in areas like Cleveland Hts anymore, but it certainly doesn't hurt to go over different ideas and suggestions.

 

Also, the Vancouver riot, and I could be wrong, was a one time thing. We, in the States, seem to have epidemics (look at the recent problems in Philly and Chicago). If there were multiple riots in Canada or it was an ongoing problem in some way, then yeah, perhaps they would need more stringent rules on sporting events. I think the Manchester team in England had to play for an empty stadium years due to unending violence/riots with fans.

 

I've said my peace. At least at this particular forum regarding suburban crime.

I was there.  I saw some of the fights.  I saw mobs of kids rushing across Mayfield Road from altercation to altercation trying to see what was going on, not caring about blocking traffic or anything else.  It was anarchy.

 

You're right, it's wrong of me to assume that these kids came from bad families.  I mean, this type of behavior on a Sunday evening by hundreds of kids is perfectly normal.  :clap:

 

Good communities are being ruined while otherwise level-headed people stand by and make excuses for this nonsense. 

 

 

You saw "some" fights?  Anarchy?  REALLY?!  Anarchy?  Again, you saw a fight, but doesn't not tell you what type of family each individual comes from?  That's like assuming someones financial status based on how they are dressed one day.

 

 

Don't insult my intelligence with that passive-aggressive accusatory BS!

 

 

Who, perchance are you referring to as those that "stand by"?

 

The fact that these kids were out there, unsupervised, behaving in such a manner is a good indication of their family background.  What more are you asking for.  Were you even there?  Or are you once again trying to defend the indefensible without really having a true understanding of the situation?

Clevelander17 - It's not 'acceptable' in Cleveland Heights.  It's not 'acceptable' in nearby communities.  I don't know of any community that 'accepts' unruly behavoir.  You have different levels of it, mostly dependent on socio-economic factors, but nobody accepts it.  I suggest we discuss the problem, not your perceptions of how others view it.  When someone posts something along the lines of "you all are crazy... there is no problem here that needs to be addressed" then you can go on your rant and I will join you.

 

TBideon - I think they did go over different ideas and suggestions.  In the end, they came up with the solution they thought would best work AND, more importantly, stays within legal limits.  CH doe not desire to bring Arizona type shame and ridicule on a City that embraces and is renowned for its diversity.  As to your disappointment in an alleged failure to acknowledge that black kids cause all of these problems, I think some of us at least want to make a good faith effort to follow the lead of Dr. King and judge people not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

Nobody's 'making excuses', Clevelander17.  Let that one go and the conversation can progress.  Simply by saying this is nothing new or that it goes on elsewhere (see much, much, much worse russian video I posted a couple pages back) is not to excuse the behavoir, but simply to point out that it is not somehow unique to CH, as you continue to imply.

 

You're right, it's not unique to Cleveland Heights.  We see it all the time in East Cleveland, Euclid, Maple Heights, over large chunks of Cleveland proper, etc.  That's besides the point and although it's not a direct excuse, it's a deflection.  We're talking about Cleveland Heights and how to solve this city's problems.  What's become acceptable in other nearby cities should not be acceptable in CH.

 

I'm going to ask this right out.  Are you in any way, directly or indirectly, saying that minorities are the problem in Cleveland Heights?  Do you feel that they are the reason, you believe, CH is in decline?

I was there.  I saw some of the fights.  I saw mobs of kids rushing across Mayfield Road from altercation to altercation trying to see what was going on, not caring about blocking traffic or anything else.  It was anarchy.

 

You're right, it's wrong of me to assume that these kids came from bad families.  I mean, this type of behavior on a Sunday evening by hundreds of kids is perfectly normal.  :clap:

 

Good communities are being ruined while otherwise level-headed people stand by and make excuses for this nonsense. 

 

 

You saw "some" fights?  Anarchy?  REALLY?!  Anarchy?  Again, you saw a fight, but doesn't not tell you what type of family each individual comes from?  That's like assuming someones financial status based on how they are dressed one day.

 

 

Don't insult my intelligence with that passive-aggressive accusatory BS!

 

 

Who, perchance are you referring to as those that "stand by"?

 

The fact that these kids were out there, unsupervised, behaving in such a manner is a good indication of their family background.  What more are you asking for.  Were you even there?  Or are you once again trying to defend the indefensible without really having a true understanding of the situation?

 

 

Oh so kids should not go out unsupervised?  Were you there?  Do you know all parties involved and what their role was?

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/06/conventry_street_fair_disburba.html

 

 

I'm a man of color, I know how shit gets twisted.  I'm in now way defending bad behavior and at the same time saying you cannot lump all people of one segment or situation into one demographic.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh come on TBideon, you took the bait.

 

As Hts121 pointed out, there is little that can be done by the community, by law, in the face of the overwhelming reality of the situation.  So the only real solution is to punish everybody or punish nobody.  For a long time, CH went the punish nobody route.  Now they're trying the punish everybody route.  But at the end of the day, if things are going to improve and get to a place where we all (allegedly) want things to be, there are going to have to be cultural changes in the home life of these kids.

But at the end of the day, if things are going to improve and get to a place where we all (allegedly) want things to be, there are going to have to be cultural changes in the home life of these kids.

 

Now that is something that we can all agree with.  Which is why I was glad to see that CH added a fine for the parents as well as punishment for the juveniles.

But at the end of the day, if things are going to improve and get to a place where we all (allegedly) want things to be, there are going to have to be cultural changes in the home life of these kids.

 

Now that is something that we can all agree with.  Which is why I was glad to see that CH added a fine for the parents as well as punishment for the juveniles.

 

Couldn't agree more with that.  If your responsible for a minor, you should suffer the consequence.

Nobody's 'making excuses', Clevelander17.  Let that one go and the conversation can progress.  Simply by saying this is nothing new or that it goes on elsewhere (see much, much, much worse russian video I posted a couple pages back) is not to excuse the behavoir, but simply to point out that it is not somehow unique to CH, as you continue to imply.

 

You're right, it's not unique to Cleveland Heights.  We see it all the time in East Cleveland, Euclid, Maple Heights, over large chunks of Cleveland proper, etc.  That's besides the point and although it's not a direct excuse, it's a deflection.  We're talking about Cleveland Heights and how to solve this city's problems.  What's become acceptable in other nearby cities should not be acceptable in CH.

 

I'm going to ask this right out.  Are you in any way, directly or indirectly, saying that minorities are the problem in Cleveland Heights?  Do you feel that they are the reason, you believe, CH is in decline?

 

Absolutely not.  However there is a preponderance of a very negative and destructive culture that has become acceptable in many minority communities that has been for the past few decades becoming more and more established in Cleveland Heights.  This indeed is ruining the schools and the city.  The fact that they are minorities is coincidental.  If this behavior was closely-associated with any race, it would still be unacceptable.

Oh so kids should not go out unsupervised?  Were you there?  Do you know all parties involved and what their role was?

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/06/conventry_street_fair_disburba.html

 

How many times do I have to tell you that I was there?

 

Anyways, if this is how these kids behave when they're not being supervised, then yes, these kids should not be allowed to go out unsupervised.  And if their parents were nearby and "supervising" this type of behavior, then that may even make it worse.

Oh so kids should not go out unsupervised?  Were you there?  Do you know all parties involved and what their role was?

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/06/conventry_street_fair_disburba.html

 

How many times do I have to tell you that I was there?

 

Anyways, if this is how these kids behave when they're not being supervised, then yes, these kids should not be allowed to go out unsupervised.  And if their parents were nearby and "supervising" this type of behavior, then that may even make it worse.

 

You dont you stated it was anarchy!

 

 

Why haven't you answered my previous question?

Ok, I'm going out on a limb here and say I can kind of see what Clevelander17 MIGHT be trying to say. I shall describe a parallel. It's long, so skip it if you don't want to read my ramblings.

 

I spent the day with my Mom and little RNR a couple of weekends ago. When little RNR fell asleep in the car on the way to where we were originally going, we decided to proceed down 71 to my hometown. A loose plan formulated on the way, including picking up a pizza from a great local pizza joint and taking it to a park to eat. little RNR would be well-rested, get a chance to play and get some energy out, and then we'd get back on the road and head back to our original destination. Mom suggested a park we used to have some of my birthday parties at when I was very small, so we headed there.

 

Park was mostly deserted. We drove to the playground/play structure area and here's who was there - a group of about 12 kids, late elementary school aged, like 4th or 5th graders. All were black except one white boy and all were male except one black girl. They were decamped in the overhang/picnic tables just next to the play area. Little R didn't want to eat, he wanted to play, so we went over and climbed on the structure. He was curious about the other kids, being a friendly sort, and kept looking over to them to see what they were up to. I smiled at a couple of them and said hello to one when we passed by going to the bathroom, but just got glares back. I wasn't hoping to be friendly, but to sort of indicate hey, there is a very, very little kid here, maybe you guys can tone it down a little, because they seemed pretty loud/rowdy. But they ignored us, and continued on with whole strings of swear words and general horseplay. It escalated and escalated and I was less and less able to distract LO with playing and not listening/watching what they were doing. It finally got very bad, with one boy WHIPPING the girl with a belt, "play" chasing her all around the play area and screaming stuff like "b*tch I told you to get your f*ckin ass HOME, mother f*cker!" and swinging the belt, OVERHAND, and hitting her with it. She'd run away laughing and then come back and sit down to get away from him and be by the other kids and then he'd start it up again. It was absolutely horrifying to me to watch my 2 year old little boy watching this go down. He even went near them and tried to say hi at one point and it broke my heart. When the beating thing started escalating, I finally snatched him up and came back and told Mom we needed to pack everything up that she was unpacking, those kids were out of control. We hurriedly shoved everything into the car and I got little R buckled in and then I marched over to the kids and I said, "You should be ASHAMED of yourselves, acting and talking that way in front of such a little boy," and I spun around and left.

 

We drove 2 park systems over and there were a bunch of white kids playing quietly and having fun, a boy throwing ball with Dad. We got out and LO played with Grandma for like an hour and there were no incidents.

 

Now obviously, this is but one small example. But I can tell you growing up in that town, this is 100% representative of the vast majority of my interactions with black kids when I was young and then black teens in high school. Never did white kids line the halls of my high school with his friends and wait for the girls to come in and swarm on them and demand their phone number and say they want to get with you and do all kinds of nasty things to you, and then when you politely declined, be accused of being prejudiced and not liking black people.

 

I knew these encounters were not representative of all black people. But the representative experiences that are bad can really color people's perceptions about the people of that race as a whole, because they don't get to SEE the other side. when you live in a place where these are all your encounters, that's what you think all black people are like and it generates a lot of racism that is wrong and unfounded.

 

All I know is I wanted those kids to get out of the stupid park and leave my kid alone, and that the white kids at the park didn't act like that, and that I was glad I didn't live there anymore.  Similarly, all the fair participants or cleveland.bomb posters or people on twitter are seeing is the one side. They might not have opportunities (or be blind to) the things on the other side of that coin that counter those experiences. So they just think, the "problem" needs to go. Education here is key. I would hope that instead of just making some sweeping curfew rule, some bridge-building could happen if there is a feeling of opposition or division, instead of walls being thrown up.

Oh so kids should not go out unsupervised?  Were you there?  Do you know all parties involved and what their role was?

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/06/conventry_street_fair_disburba.html

 

How many times do I have to tell you that I was there?

 

Anyways, if this is how these kids behave when they're not being supervised, then yes, these kids should not be allowed to go out unsupervised.  And if their parents were nearby and "supervising" this type of behavior, then that may even make it worse.

 

You dont you stated it was anarchy!

 

 

Why haven't you answered my previous question?

 

It was anarchy compared to what one would normally expect to see at a street fair in a nice suburb.

 

I did answer your question.

Oh so kids should not go out unsupervised?  Were you there?  Do you know all parties involved and what their role was?

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/06/conventry_street_fair_disburba.html

 

How many times do I have to tell you that I was there?

 

Anyways, if this is how these kids behave when they're not being supervised, then yes, these kids should not be allowed to go out unsupervised.  And if their parents were nearby and "supervising" this type of behavior, then that may even make it worse.

 

You dont you stated it was anarchy!

 

 

Why haven't you answered my previous question?

 

It was anarchy compared to what one would normally expect to see at a street fair in a nice suburb.

 

I did answer your question.

 

On.  Now you have a selective reading.  See post 288

I can't believe someone had to google Arnold's to figure out what I meant. Proof that I am getting old!

I was there Sunday and can confirm what the news reports said. I can also affirm that this happened at last year's Coventry Festival. Hell, I have pictures of the rioting last year. I also was there 3 weeks ago with my girlfriend when the same EXACT thing happened. It also happened AT LEAST twice at Severance Circle. Let's recap EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING:

 

Masses of black teenagers, male and female show up around the same time to either start a flash mob, gain attention, or what I witnessed last year, TO WATCH A FIGHT. The police either already there or who start showing up with billy clubs and speakers saying KEEP MOVING. The kids, if not already, start running back and forth, either running from cops or looking for the fight. I stopped one kid last year and said, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?" and he said, "there is a fight, I am trying to find it." Anyone who believes that this adds to the culture or enjoyment of an art festival is only kidding themself. Last year, an old woman was decked by a punk and started screaming. Kids ignoring the cops to keep moving. The cops weren't telling them to clear the way for no reason - the festival ended and the streets were re-opening. It is also hard to describe this group of what I'd estimate to be 1000-2000 kids ALL THREE TIMES as anything other than black teenagers. I have yet to see a single non-black kid participate in the flashmobs. I spend A LOT OF TIME on Coventry, I live nearby and I am there 3-4 times a week. I am not going to deny anything that has happened and I am not going to downplay what a bad situation these kids have caused. The new law is a blessing and much-needed. When you go somewhere specifically to cause riots, fear, fights, and problems and then ignore cops, push people, block streets, run in traffic, and break the law, you are not a teenager having fun, you are a juvenile delinquent, or adult, as was the case last year when several arrests were of people over 18, some in their 30's. Believe me, no one is enjoying this, so I can assure you, I have no fun in talking about what is happening. It has become a mix of fear from youth rioting mixed with police states by men with billy clubs. Talk about a nice place for it to happen: THE HIPPY STREET.

 

To sum it up, I also asked a girl last year why is she running with the crowd. She ignored me and just kept running. Running with the crowd...