I mainly agree with you Cleve17.  A number of years ago I never would have condoned such policies, but the realities have sunk in.  It would certainly be a huge mistake to continually act as though everything is always random when there are real issues and real threats which will only lead to further destabilization.  I'm hoping if nothing else that the events today will shake things up a bit and lead to a lower tolerance of such nonsense. 

 

And of course crime has gotten worse in the eastern suburbs.  Heck there are robberies in Shaker Heights now. 

It just goes with the territory.  Of all the years of statistical analysis I have had to do for my DC job I have never seen a situation where the type of demographic shifts that the east side suburbs have experienced hasn't also lead to higher instances of crime.  Equally there is that danger when so much of your housing becomes rental and certainly with large amounts of section 8.  Without a doubt it it de-stabilizes things. 

 

Where I disagree with you Cleve17 is on the tax abatement front.  I think Cleveland Heights has to do everything in its power to bring new housing products to the market in areas such as Cedar Lee and Taylor etc.(its about maintaining a balance).    They have to do everything they can to compete with what is happening in places like Lakewood as opposed to being left behind.  Impressions are very important here as well, but it really is vital to hold onto mixed incomes, otherwise things will only continue to deteriorate and property values will only continue to go down.             

 

As someone who grew up in Shaker and has quite a few family members in Shaker Proper, what do you mean by "now"?  There are parts of Shaker that are perceived worse than the perceived bad section of Coventry.

^They do a helluva lot more for the community than empty lots.  Keep in mind that new condos with tax abatements are built on non-revenue generating lots.  In 10 years, DUE TO THE ABATEMENTS, those lots will be very lucrative in terms of revenue.  And also consider that tax abatements don't apply to RITA, so there is still that income.  One of my closest friends is a developer in the City and I can GUARANTEE you beyond a shadow of a doubt that the abatements were absolutely necessary for the condos to be built in the first place.  It wouldn't have happened without the abatements..... which would have risked the lots going into a land bank and being open to purchase by developers who sought to build 'less desirable' housing options.

 

Let's see where the city has been building condos and if it was likely for any less desirable housing to be developed on each parcel:

 

1) Outskirts of Severance Town Center: Maybe, but I have my doubts.  Other apartment developments around Severance have not gone that route.

 

2) The old JCC property: Unlikely, because it would have required a zoning change.

 

3) Fairmount-Cedar: Incredibily unlikely because CH would never agree to high-density apartment complexes in that area, but if they did, I suspect it would be filled quickly by CWRU students.

 

Bottom line is this, if the demand was there, these lots would be developed regardless.  But even if they were empty (and it meant that resources could be used to control supply in other parts of the city), the community would still be much better off because of what it could mean for crime and the schools.  For every one of those houses that is torn down, that's one house that potentially means 3-5 very needy kids no longer enrolled in the CH-UH school system and 1-2 CHPD annual house calls.  Of course that's just an example of the types of families that might be living in these homes, but the point is that getting rid as much of that as possible is a net gain for the city and its residents, much more IMO than a few tax abated condo units.

As someone who grew up in Shaker and has quite a few family members in Shaker Proper, what do you mean by "now"?  There are parts of Shaker that are perceived worse than the perceived bad section of Coventry.

 

SH is in a similar position as CH, however perhaps his point might be that in recent years there has also been some very high profile violent crimes there as well.  Not sure if statistically things have gotten worse in SH, but my suspicion is yes.  Either way its perception has plummeted, too.

Bottom line is this, if the demand was there, these lots would be developed regardless.

 

Developers love tax abatements. They can bake much of the tax savings into the sale price, and into their pocket. It ends up artificially inflating new house prices. Then it becomes hot-potato when the first or second owners try to dump the house a year or two before the abatement ends.

 

^^^You are mixing two issues.  I agree on the demolition front, especially for the housing stock with very little appeal to the current market, even if rehabbed.  But leaving a lot empty versus allowing a productive development to be built through tax abatements does not use up any City resources the City would have had otherwise.  The grants for these projects, if any, come from higher levels of government, not the City, and would not be spent elsewhere in the City absent the development.  If anything, that is bringing money in to the City.

 

The City is very open to development and exhausts all other options prior to giving a tax abatement.

 

The Cedar-Meadowbrook property was one instance in which the developer asked for some money for remediation and the City said no.  The lot remains vacant, generating zero income and providing nothing of value to the community, except for that segment that likes to look at an empty, lightly maintenances grass lot in the middle of a bustling business district.

^They do a helluva lot more for the community than empty lots.  Keep in mind that new condos with tax abatements are built on non-revenue generating lots.  In 10 years, DUE TO THE ABATEMENTS, those lots will be very lucrative in terms of revenue.  And also consider that tax abatements don't apply to RITA, so there is still that income.  One of my closest friends is a developer in the City and I can GUARANTEE you beyond a shadow of a doubt that the abatements were absolutely necessary for the condos to be built in the first place.  It wouldn't have happened without the abatements..... which would have risked the lots going into a land bank and being open to purchase by developers who sought to build 'less desirable' housing options.

 

To be clear, the Cleveland Heights Municipal Court handles all adult misdemeanors and traffic offenses.  ALL felonies go to the county court system and ALL juvenile offenses go to the county's juvenile court system.

 

As for the county judges, the next time a judge runs for election on something other than being "tough on crime" will probably be the first.  Sentencing guidelines and state budgetary constraints are the bigger concerns, especially when the latter is being used up needlessly on non-violent offenders.  THAT needs to change.

 

True, but with juvenile judges there's currently no way to verify they are truly being tough.

 

Or that they are not being tough.  Juvenile judges, even moreso than common pleas judges, are handcuffed by the law.  The problem I see is not so much with the juvenile courts as it is with the juvenile detention facilities.  Kids are coming out worse than they are going in, and the more time they spend in there, the worse off they seem to be.  Indeed, Cleveland was never a really big gang city, but we now have one (Heartless Felons) that started in the juvenile facility which would rank up there in terms of violence with any west-coast gang

 

That's because they have nothing to do, because asking them to work would be "cruel".

 

I still think my "downstate cornfield" proposal might make some difference.

As someone who grew up in Shaker and has quite a few family members in Shaker Proper, what do you mean by "now"?  There are parts of Shaker that are perceived worse than the perceived bad section of Coventry.

 

SH is in a similar position as CH, however perhaps his point might be that in recent years there has also been some very high profile violent crimes there as well.  Not sure if statistically things have gotten worse in SH, but my suspicion is yes.  Either way its perception has plummeted, too.

 

SH perception has plummeted?  LOL  I find that funny.

I'll have to agree to disagree with the above posters.  However to get this thread back on track, is there any word on whether or not the police have arrested anyone yet? 

Here's a nice piece on some of the hard decisions facing the CH community as it moves forward:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/morris/index.ssf/2014/07/brennans_colony_offers_painful.html#incart_river

 

Much of the same could be said about Shaker Heights, too, another community going through changes and dealing with issues at major community gatherings (i.e. the issues at the fireworks show in 2012 that led to the city deciding to cancel the long-running event).

That issue is much larger than CH and SH.  The problems at the street fair and the fireworks were largely the due to the effect of social media and a lack of alternatives, causing significant influxes to those events of kids not from those communities

That issue is much larger than CH and SH.  The problems at the street fair and the fireworks were largely the due to the effect of social media and a lack of alternatives, causing significant influxes to those events of kids not from those communities

 

So what's the solution?  When places like Mayfield Village or Brunswick or whatever outer-ring town you want to name has fireworks, there's rarely this type of a problem.  I'm annoyed and sick of the fact that many of the region's most unique communities apparently can't have nice things.

Well..... we are going to see how those fireworks events go now that Shaker and Euclid are both shut down.  The issue, in my mind, is the convergence of youths from different neighborhoods at these events.  As juvenile as it is to use the term "turf", it seems like that was something which was much more respected not too long ago.  It shouldn't be like that, but it is.

 

Crime follows poverty...... everywhere.  It is true in Cleveland and it is true in the Ozarks, albeit the crime in the former garners much greater police and media attention.  A place like Brunswick is geographically fairly insulated from poverty pockets, for now.  When its housing stock starts to age and the shiny new neighborhoods pop up 20-30 years from now, that could very well change.  You are starting to see some of this in places not too far from Brunswick, such as North Ridgeville.

 

A solution?  That's the million dollar question, isn't it?  Let's not pretend like a solution is readily available and only needs to be implemented.  Eliminating poverty is the most obvious solution, but impossible to implement.  I have my thoughts which I have shared repeatedly.... something akin to order-maintenance policing which shrinks patrols and creates more neighborhood specific cops out on the street and highly visible.  More specifically for the inner-ring communities, my best guess is that they are most burdened by years, hell.... decades of utter failure in the CMSD (which falls first and foremost on the parents but not insignificantly on the school district itself, of which many of those "parents" are products).

5 suspects now in custody. Not one from Cleveland Heights. Sounds like CMHA played a part in their apprehension, so one can guess where they were found.  No guarantee yet that they have the shooter(s)

^ kudos to all law enforcement agencies involved.  It seems as most of the serious crime incidents that have occurred in CH over the last few years were committed by non CH residents.

Well..... we are going to see how those fireworks events go now that Shaker and Euclid are both shut down.  The issue, in my mind, is the convergence of youths from different neighborhoods at these events.  As juvenile as it is to use the term "turf", it seems like that was something which was much more respected not too long ago.  It shouldn't be like that, but it is.

 

Crime follows poverty...... everywhere.  It is true in Cleveland and it is true in the Ozarks, albeit the crime in the former garners much greater police and media attention.  A place like Brunswick is geographically fairly insulated from poverty pockets, for now.  When its housing stock starts to age and the shiny new neighborhoods pop up 20-30 years from now, that could very well change.  You are starting to see some of this in places not too far from Brunswick, such as North Ridgeville.

 

Walton Hills is not that isolated, yet Walton Hills does not have these sorts of problems.  To be fair, it lacks central gathering points.  Northfield Village has them, and even a casino now, and if it's happening it's being kept pretty secret.  We're starting to see some in Macedonia, particularly in the commons.  That's right off the freeway. 

 

Walton Hills and Northfield Village have followed the Cleveland Heights model, highly visible police ostensibly running radar, how much they are actually doing so varying. 

^ kudos to all law enforcement agencies involved.  It seems as most of the serious crime incidents that have occurred in CH over the last few years were committed by non CH residents.

 

I think that's the pattern pretty much everywhere.  Outside people bring crime, people move because of it, and the criminals begin to become "home grown".

 

Rumor has it at least one of the five arrested used to work at the restaurant.

Walton Hills is fairly isolated from the demographics I was referring to, not the MUCH more arbitrarily generalized demographics you probably assumed I was referencing.

Walton Hills is fairly isolated from the demographics I was referring to, not the MUCH more arbitrarily generalized demographics you probably assumed I was referencing.

 

It borders Maple Heights and both borders and shares a school district with Bedford and Oakwood. 

 

5 suspects now in custody. Not one from Cleveland Heights. Sounds like CMHA played a part in their apprehension, so one can guess where they were found.  No guarantee yet that they have the shooter(s)

 

Unconfirmed report from channel 5 that these 5 arrested are members of the Heartless Felons gang

Walton Hills is fairly isolated from the demographics I was referring to, not the MUCH more arbitrarily generalized demographics you probably assumed I was referencing.

 

It borders Maple Heights and both borders and shares a school district with Bedford and Oakwood. 

 

Exactly.  Same response.

One of the four suspects charged was a kitchen worker at Colony

One of the four suspects charged was a kitchen worker at Colony

 

Pretty much our suspicions

I really wish there was a way to get accurate crime statistics for all cities. My understanding is that suburbs tend to go out of their way to mask/obscure the numbers? Isn't this sort of information covered by the sunshine laws? I don't know how we have constructive conversations about the various policies and whatnot without accurate, objective metrics to compare/contrast.

I really wish there was a way to get accurate crime statistics for all cities. My understanding is that suburbs tend to go out of their way to mask/obscure the numbers? Isn't this sort of information covered by the sunshine laws? I don't know how we have constructive conversations about the various policies and whatnot without accurate, objective metrics to compare/contrast.

It seems as if a lot if suburbs don't even report crime many years, at least according to City Data.  Westlake has nothing reported past 2004 or so, and the last two years they have up were absurdly low (like 1/10th of even the previous years' stats for Westlake).

I really wish there was a way to get accurate crime statistics for all cities. My understanding is that suburbs tend to go out of their way to mask/obscure the numbers? Isn't this sort of information covered by the sunshine laws? I don't know how we have constructive conversations about the various policies and whatnot without accurate, objective metrics to compare/contrast.

It seems as if a lot if suburbs don't even report crime many years, at least according to City Data.  Westlake has nothing reported past 2004 or so, and the last two years they have up were absurdly low (like 1/10th of even the previous years' stats for Westlake).

 

And it's quite likely that once Crocker Park was completed, crime ballooned over there.  And when did Crocker Park fully open? ;)

http://www.cleveland.com/cleveland-heights/index.ssf/2014/07/byou_bar_closes_after_settling.html#incart_river

http://www.cleveland.com/cleveland-heights/index.ssf/2014/07/byou_bar_closes_after_settling.html#incart_river

 

Good riddance.  Now the city needs to do something to ensure that the next tenant doesn't repeat the cycle.

http://www.cleveland.com/cleveland-heights/index.ssf/2014/07/byou_bar_closes_after_settling.html#incart_river

 

Good riddance.  Now the city needs to do something to ensure that the next tenant doesn't repeat the cycle.

If you lose your liquor license for cause, another license holder can't move in for a period of time, at least a year IIRC.  Though one adjeacent can expand in, as we did....

I was hearing a LOT of sirens at about 6 p.m. this evening. Now I know why.....

 

^ wow

Well, speaking of eastern suburban neighborhoods being infiltrated and having their events ruined by a certain element, there were shots fired tonight at the St. Greg's Festival in South Euclid.

 

http://www.19actionnews.com/story/26004543/several-arrest-at-south-euclid-church-festival

Well, speaking of eastern suburban neighborhoods being infiltrated and having their events ruined by a certain element, there were shots fired tonight at the St. Greg's Festival in South Euclid.

 

http://www.19actionnews.com/story/26004543/several-arrest-at-south-euclid-church-festival

 

Interesting post on one of the news outlet Facebook pages, a black woman called out the precise neighborhood she thought the problem people were from (E. 117th-St. Clair) and said they kept harassing her son asking where he was from.

 

Sometimes seems like only the Feast on Murray Hill is exempt in the city and inner ring.  Bedford hasn't had problems yet, either, but the square is relatively small and there is always a heavy police presence.  They had to cancel their fireworks.

^^ Been there, done that.

 

Sometimes seems like only the Feast on Murray Hill is exempt in the city and inner ring.

 

I wouldn't say that.  There's plenty of events in Cleveland (Taste of Tremont, Greek Festival, Cleveland Fireworks, Edgewater Live, etc.) that don't have these problems.  Also, this weekend was the Cain Park Arts Festival and there were no such problems that I'm aware of.  I don't know what it is about certain events that attracts these problems, but it definitely seems like some are lightning rods more than others.

Wade Oval Wednesday happens every week without any problems

Wade Oval Wednesday happens every week without any problems

 

Thanks, I knew I was forgetting a big one.  Which is pretty dumb of me considering I was just there last week.

Wade Oval Wednesday happens every week without any problems

 

Thanks, I knew I was forgetting a big one.  Which is pretty dumb of me considering I was just there last week.

 

Not to mention there are several neighborhood events, throughout the city,  that that go off without incident.

St. Greg's carnival was always a punch-fest, and that was when it was frequented mostly by kids from the same general neighborhood.  Now, in the social media age, we have teens flooding in from all over the metro to these types of events.  I am mostly clueless as to what can be done to prevent it.  But I think a good start would be a general admission price, not simply having to pay for the tickets to get on the rides. 

 

With as many bad experiences (i.e. fights, fights, and more fights) as I had as a kid, I haven't been to a catholic school carnival in a long, long time, so I don't know if they do now charge for general admission.  And I suppose there is a logistical problem since there is no way to close the perimeter.  Maybe wristbands could be used?

St. Greg's carnival was always a punch-fest, and that was when it was frequented mostly by kids from the same general neighborhood.  Now, in the social media age, we have teens flooding in from all over the metro to these types of events.  I am mostly clueless as to what can be done to prevent it.  But I think a good start would be a general admission price, not simply having to pay for the tickets to get on the rides. 

 

With as many bad experiences (i.e. fights, fights, and more fights) as I had as a kid, I haven't been to a catholic school carnival in a long, long time, so I don't know if they do now charge for general admission.  And I suppose there is a logistical problem since there is no way to close the perimeter.  Maybe wristbands could be used?

 

I took Ardyn to the St. Barnabas one and there was no general admission or even access control.  The prices were quite high, but if attendees aren't buying anything that has no impact.  Admission is a good idea, especially if offset by lower fees for vendors.

I believe that St. Greg's has a courtyard area and much of the carnival is also inside.  At least for them, I think that limiting access might be doable.

Didn't the incident happen outside of the festival on a nearby street?

One of my neighbors is a class parent. Admission price, wristbands, and a perimeter are being actively discussed. But, to be clear, the actual issues which led to arrests occurred outside the carnival. The carnival itself was just fine from what she told me

Yeah I've heard that whatever happened occurred in the street (Mayfield, I believe) with dozens of teens creating near riotous conditions.  A quick perusal of Twitter indicates that many of these kids were not from South Euclid...big shock there.  I suspect that even with tightened security measures at these types of events, the kids will still use the event as an opportunity to meet up and cause trouble along the perimeter.

 

I think the best solution is for communities and police forces to start becoming much more heavy-handed in how they address the issue.  Put large amounts of the troublemakers in jail for extended periods of time (i.e. an entire weekend), fine parents several hundreds of dollars, etc.  They need to go to greater lengths to send the message to those from outside the community (and some within, of course) that this type of behavior will not be tolerated.  Make it so that engaging in this type of behavior becomes "painful" enough in terms of inconveniencing the troublemakers and hitting their pocketbooks that they will stop coming.

I am sure the City is going to press for the highest possible charges against anyone they were actually able to wrangle up.  The problem is that many of these kids are not adults, and the ones that are will be facing felony aggravated rioting charges which will be sent to the County.  In mass chaos situations, it is very difficult to get solid charges on anyone since the cops #1 priority is to diffuse the situation and a very distant second is to try to actually determine and apprehend the violent offenders.  The vast majority of the kids are simply standing around wanting to see a fight.  Most you can get on them is obstructing official business or refusal to follow a lawful order or possibly disorderly conduct.  Those charges won't get you much.  You want the ones actually engaged in the fighting, but that is a difficult job when dispersing a crowd of hundreds is the number one priority.  What really is needed is statewide legislation somehow dealing with the issue of flash-mobs..... but I don't know if that is practical due to the extremely slippery slope it would cause.  It is a very tough issue, but one we are going to have to deal with in this day and age when creating a flash-mob at events like this is done so easily

I am sure the City is going to press for the highest possible charges against anyone they were actually able to wrangle up.  The problem is that many of these kids are not adults, and the ones that are will be facing felony aggravated rioting charges which will be sent to the County.  In mass chaos situations, it is very difficult to get solid charges on anyone since the cops #1 priority is to diffuse the situation and a very distant second is to try to actually determine and apprehend the violent offenders.  The vast majority of the kids are simply standing around wanting to see a fight.  Most you can get on them is obstructing official business or refusal to follow a lawful order or possibly disorderly conduct.  Those charges won't get you much.  You want the ones actually engaged in the fighting, but that is a difficult job when dispersing a crowd of hundreds is the number one priority.  What really is needed is statewide legislation somehow dealing with the issue of flash-mobs..... but I don't know if that is practical due to the extremely slippery slope it would cause.  It is a very tough issue, but one we are going to have to deal with in this day and age when creating a flash-mob at events like this is done so easily

 

Pretty much exactly what cop friends of mine say, and I've experienced on a much lower level myself.  Priority One is getting control of the situation.  It also ties into the need for accountability in the juvenile justice system.

 

I'm not sure if much of anything can be done unless and until there's some attitude reform in what we call "a certain subculture".  I'm afraid that can't be imposed externally.  Community leadership needs to step up, if for no other reason than because it's hard to get rid of stereotypes that keep getting reinforced.

 

 

 

I don't know who you mean by 'we', but as long as outsiders see it as a problem of a certain 'community' and take the Malcolm X approach of help can only come from within, we will never solve anything.  It's neither a problem for the black community to deal with or you might call a white man's burden.  We don't separate communities by hair color, eye color, height, or any other physical trait.  We shouldn't do so by race or under the guise of a 'certain subculture'

I am sure the City is going to press for the highest possible charges against anyone they were actually able to wrangle up.  The problem is that many of these kids are not adults, and the ones that are will be facing felony aggravated rioting charges which will be sent to the County.  In mass chaos situations, it is very difficult to get solid charges on anyone since the cops #1 priority is to diffuse the situation and a very distant second is to try to actually determine and apprehend the violent offenders.  The vast majority of the kids are simply standing around wanting to see a fight.  Most you can get on them is obstructing official business or refusal to follow a lawful order or possibly disorderly conduct.  Those charges won't get you much.  You want the ones actually engaged in the fighting, but that is a difficult job when dispersing a crowd of hundreds is the number one priority.  What really is needed is statewide legislation somehow dealing with the issue of flash-mobs..... but I don't know if that is practical due to the extremely slippery slope it would cause.  It is a very tough issue, but one we are going to have to deal with in this day and age when creating a flash-mob at events like this is done so easily

 

Pretty much exactly what cop friends of mine say, and I've experienced on a much lower level myself.  Priority One is getting control of the situation.  It also ties into the need for accountability in the juvenile justice system.

 

I'm not sure if much of anything can be done unless and until there's some attitude reform in what we call "a certain subculture".  I'm afraid that can't be imposed externally.  Community leadership needs to step up, if for no other reason than because it's hard to get rid of stereotypes that keep getting reinforced.

 

 

 

What is this "sub culture" you're speaking of?

What is this "sub culture" you're speaking of?

 

.

E Rocc has posited that rationale plenty of times.  But there are lots of coded ways nowadays of saying something.  The term 'thug' is a good example.  You certainly won't hear that term assigned to all violent offenders.  It wasn't used to describe the head-bangers who got into that massive brawl on the Lakewood-Cleveland border.  You won't hear it assigned to the bully at Bay Village HS.  You certainly will hear it used to describe individuals who are not black, but only when those individuals meet certain stereotypes assigned to black youth, regardless of what actions they might have taken.

 

To be clear, I was questioning the notion that the solution needs to come from within a certain 'community.'  The 'subculture' meme is a pointless debate.  It's the equivalent of the "I'm not touching you" game siblings taunt each other with...