Of course the problem is not "solved."  Don't be ridiculous.  But if we did stop him from getting the gun, chances are three Chardon teenagers would not be dead today.

 

And..... just a hunch..... but if a kid walked into the school cafeteria and started stabbing people at random, it would make the news.  Again, just a hunch.  :|

 

Everything is not some grand conspiracy by the media.

^I disagree.  Most of the talk I hear centers around the failure to identify this kid's mental disorders, which were obviously quite severe.  Most of the clamoring about gun laws is coming from the gun lobby which feels the need to unnecessarily do damage control whenever something like this happens.  In their eyes.... it couldn't...... ever....... be even partially the fault of an irresponsible gun owner who failed to secure his/her dangerous ordinance.

 

The topic was first brought up on post 347.  My last post was 396.  That's 50 posts on the topic.  33 of them touched on violent crime rates and/or guns.  The rest were general comments about how awfule the situation was.

 

The only real suggestion I've seen to prevent something like this from happening again has been to modify or enforce existing gun laws. 

 

To me, that qualifies as "most of the talk".  I was generally keeping my commentary to the confines of this board since that I would not have any visibility to what others are discussing outside of this forum.

SHS, the reason that guns are being talked about too is that the formula for this tragedy was a unstable teen who didn't get the help he needed plus (assumed) easy access to a gun equaled 3 dead teens and countless other lives changed forever. Take one of those out of the equation and this never happens. Sure if the kid had been helped by somebody or had a better family or even if he had a good friend who talked him out of it, it would have never happened. And if he had only been able to get knife, maybe only the new boyfriend would have gotten stabbed all things being equal.

 

Yes, we should encourage, wherever we can, a stable home life where parents are involved in their kids' lives. Yes, in absence of that, school teachers / administrators should be as aware as possible for possible irregularities or red flags in their students' behaviors. Yes, even students would be well served to notify parents / teachers, etc. when they notice something that might seem alarming by one of their fellow students. And yes, we should do what we can to promote safe gun ownership (including usage, maintenance and storage).

 

Gun ownership is a focus because a gun was used in the act. I completely agree that addressing mental health issues with students is as high a priority, if not even higher. I also feel that if this kid got this gun from a lax owner that the owner should be held to a level of responsibility.

 

There were many factors that led to this tragedy. We should address all of them (when we know what they were).

As quoted on the previous page, the LAW requires gun owners to secure their guns "against theft, or against its acquisition or use by any unauthorized or incompetent person"

 

There is no equivalent law for cars, which makes the analogy totally off-point.  I don't feel the need to own a gun, but I don't begrudge people who do.  However, if you own a gun, then you have to follow the LAW.  You have certain duties that us car owners don't have.  Simple as that.  So, point being, IF (and that's all it is at this point) the gun used in these shootings was not properly secured, it doesn't matter that the kid was psycho.... it doesn't matter if he stole it.... all that matters is if the gun was secured.  If it was not, then the owner broke the law and will face an MD2 charge.  If you have a problem with that, take it up with the General Assembly.

 

 

 

 

 

I used to work in Chardon.  It's a really nice place.  I'd go shopping at Wal-mart...

 

However, I'd still own my gun if I lived there and perhaps people that do are part of the reason it's such a safe place.  In the highly unlikely event that some punk tried to rob someone outside their house, there'd be no memorials or rallies in memory of the useless little freelance socialist.   ...

You had some reasonable rhetoric going until you dropped that perverted passage.

From what I've heard, the shooter was the gun owner, and obtained it legally. So there go your theories about irresponsble owners. It's irresponsible laws that are to blame. And the fact remains that in countries where they have different laws, and where people are not so gun happy, there are many thousands of numbers fewer gun violence crimes than here in America. That is a fact.

 

"The fact that gun owners always are now pre-emptively rushing to defend their interests against some spectral threat to their freedom when school shootings happen is an indication of how deep the problem has become."

 

THIS.

 

From what I've heard, the shooter was the gun owner, and obtained it legally. So there go your theories about irresponsble owners. It's irresponsible laws that are to blame. And the fact remains that in countries where they have different laws, and where people are not so gun happy, there are many thousands of numbers fewer gun violence crimes than here in America. That is a fact.

 

"The fact that gun owners always are now pre-emptively rushing to defend their interests against some spectral threat to their freedom when school shootings happen is an indication of how deep the problem has become."

 

THIS.

 

 

I am not sure what you heard, but in the State of Ohio, a person must be 21 years of age, pass a national background check and fill out a firearms transaction record to purchase a handgun.

 

The shooter was 17 years old.

 

So the assertion that he was the gun owner and obtained the gun legally is patently false.

Now THAT we can agree upon ;)

 

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.21

 

But, again, that just brings us back to the question of how exactly did he obtain the gun....

^^That's not true...There are exceptions to the law that can allow a gun to be sold to a person under 21.

^^That's not true...There are exceptions to the law that can allow a gun to be sold to a person under 21.

 

Conviently for you, Hts121 posted the text of the law.  Can you point to the exception of the law that allows a gun to be sold to a 17 year old?

My mistake. The gun was apparently his uncle's and he stole it.

You can sell a 'long' gun (i.e. rifle) to a person who is 18.  Handguns are 21, with the exception being sale to a law enforcement officer who has not turned 21 yet. 

 

Of course, a minor can shoot or otherwise handle a gun, but only under the strict supervision of an adult.

 

^Thanks for the clarification.  The Uncle has some answering to do.  Given the magnitude of this crime, he is going to have a long battle ahead of him, both in the criminal and civil justice system.

Purchase

^^That's not true...There are exceptions to the law that can allow a gun to be sold to a person under 21.

 

Conviently for you, Hts121 posted the text of the law.  Can you point to the exception of the law that allows a gun to be sold to a 17 year old?

 

Not for selling but I can for possessing. 

Thinking about this chokes me up a bit:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/chardon-shooting/index.ssf/2012/02/chardon_victim_donated_organs.html

You don't hear about beatings and stabbings because it's not news worthy.  There's not the associated story line of guns and gun control to couple with it.  Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 

That's complete and utter b/s.  If the same number of people were killed in the same situation with a different weapon, I guarantee you this would be just as big of a national news story.  Don't let your politics cloud your vision.

 

By the way, nearly every week at least one person is killed in Cleveland with a gun and you don't hear too much about it, so obviously the "anti-gun conspiracy" isn't too strong of a theory.  And why do you hear more about gun murders?  Because an alarmingly high percentage of murders are committed with a gun.

 

As to your previous assertion that there would still be a problem without guns, of course!  But it likely wouldn't be as large of a problem if people didn't have access to such a deadly weapon.  Why are guns the magical weapon that everyone has a right to, but not other weapons like grenades, rocket launchers, dangerous chemicals, and B12's?  I don't know if I've ever seen a gun rights supporter answer that one.

 

 

I used to work in Chardon.  It's a really nice place.  I'd go shopping at Wal-mart...

 

However, I'd still own my gun if I lived there and perhaps people that do are part of the reason it's such a safe place.  In the highly unlikely event that some punk tried to rob someone outside their house, there'd be no memorials or rallies in memory of the useless little freelance socialist.   ...

You had some reasonable rhetoric going until you dropped that perverted passage.

 

My reference here was not to T.J. Lane, but to Arthur Buford, as an illustration of the fundamental difference between Chardon and places where violence is a more commonplace occurrence and mutual respect is non-existent.

If the 15 yr old Buford even knew what 'socialism' was, I'd be shocked.  He was a criminal and I don't see how inserting that inflammatory rhetoric into this thread does any good.

You don't hear about beatings and stabbings because it's not news worthy.  There's not the associated story line of guns and gun control to couple with it.  Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 

That's complete and utter b/s.  If the same number of people were killed in the same situation with a different weapon, I guarantee you this would be just as big of a national news story.  Don't let your politics cloud your vision.

 

By the way, nearly every week at least one person is killed in Cleveland with a gun and you don't hear too much about it, so obviously the "anti-gun conspiracy" isn't too strong of a theory.  And why do you hear more about gun murders?  Because an alarmingly high percentage of murders are committed with a gun.

 

As to your previous assertion that there would still be a problem without guns, of course!  But it likely wouldn't be as large of a problem if people didn't have access to such a deadly weapon.  Why are guns the magical weapon that everyone has a right to, but not other weapons like grenades, rocket launchers, dangerous chemicals, and B12's?  I don't know if I've ever seen a gun rights supporter answer that one.

 

I don't give a shit about gun rights and my position has nothing to do with politics.  You've completely failed to understand my point based on your own preconceived notions and political beliefs.  So spare me the lecture.

 

You admit the problem would still exist if no gun was involved, which is my point.  Granted the severity of a singular incident may not be as bad, but that doesn't mean the problem wouldn't manifest itself into something just as severe down the road or under different circumstances without a gun. 

 

The issue I am trying to argue against is there is a larger problem that have nothing to do with guns.  And I get the impression that everyone seems to think that if you just removed the gun, that this is a problem, but it's not really that big of a problem.  It's only a really big problem because the kid got a gun.  "Fix the gun problem and we can just kind work on the other stuff."

 

People are basically turning a blind eye to the actual problem, or getting complacent about it...i.e., if he's not shooting someone, he's identified in the school system as a troubled youth, so eventually we'll figure it out.  And I just don't feel that to be true.

 

So instead you can just go back and forth about gun laws all you want.  You can melt down every gun on the face of the planet for all I care.  So now what are you going to do to actually fix the problem?  What is being done to prevent kids from reaching this point?

Guns are not the issue alone; otherwise, Canadians would have twice the number of shootings as Americans. Bullying isn't the issue when you look at other countries, Russia in particular, and see there are just as many bullies but minus these responses.

 

The real issue is that we are a very violent country with a lot of mentally ill people and no one knows what to do about it.

People are basically turning a blind eye to the actual problem, or getting complacent about it...i.e., if he's not shooting someone, he's identified in the school system as a troubled youth, so eventually we'll figure it out.  And I just don't feel that to be true.

 

With all due respect (seriously), you and TBidean seem to be fighting straw men here.  I don't see anyone disagreeing with you that school shooters are troubled and suffer bad parenting or could benefit from mental health intervention or that gun access is the sole problem.  I think people just see gun control as a possible point of intervention to reduce lethality, not some cure-all for violent crime.  And it's a strategy that lots of people think hasn't been really tried in earnest in the U.S. for political reasons.  If you follow your line of reasoning, grenade launchers should be available for retail purchase, because banning them is just turning a blind eye to the actual sociological problems that would lead people to using them domestically.

^Are you trying to say that the 2nd Amendment doesn't allow me to purchase a grenade launcher?  How can a "well-regulated militia" possibly operate without grenade launchers  :wtf:  (totally tongue in cheek notice for the sarcastically challenged)

 

shs96 - eeeeaaaaaaassssssy trigger.  I think the simplest response is that your 'impression' of how others view the issue is wrong.  Sure, there will be some out there who will see this as an opportunity to raise the gun control issue.  And, personally, I couldn't think of a better time.  Others will react with the outright dismissive attitude you are displaying, which only throws fuel on the fire.  But, no matter what is said, nobody suggests that if you take the gun away, this kid doesn't have problems and wouldn't cause trouble.  He was, after all, at Lakeside Academy already.  That said, I saw his picture and count me as one who would be shocked if this little scrawny kid did anything remotely close to this without a gun. 

I think people just see gun control as a possible point of intervention to reduce lethality, not some cure-all for violent crime.  And it's a strategy that lots of people think hasn't been really tried in earnest in the U.S. for political reasons.  If you follow your line of reasoning, grenade launchers should be available for retail purchase, because banning them is just turning a blind eye to the actual sociological problems that would lead people to using them domestically.

 

THIS.

Hts, that's really it as well. It just gives lethal license to someone who otherwise might just get into a couple of fist fights or something. There have been malcontents, kids from broken homes and bullies forever, and there are plenty in other countries, as others have pointed out, where this rarely to never happens.

All the talk about gun control that comes up every time a horrific crime like this occurs is more than a little naive and pie-in-the-sky. Of course we have too many guns floating around, and many of them are in the hands of people who probably shouldn't have them; but that doesn't mean the overwhelming majority of law-abiding citizens who handle firearms responsibly. If someone is determined to commit a violent gun crime, he/she will find a way to do it. TJ Lane (allegedly) stole the gun from his uncle. In other words, he committed one crime for the purpose of another. Does this mean his uncle had no right to own the gun? Of course not. As for this type of tragedy being unique to America, it isn't. Stuff like this has happened at elementary schools in Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokela_school_shooting), Japan and Scotland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre) in recent years; as well as a notorious incident at a college in Canada many years ago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre) --countries hardly known for cultivating a rampant "gun culture."

 

note: I was mistaken about the Japanese incident to which I referred. It was done with a knife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre) Outlaw the meat cleavers!

I don't understand the urge of some to re-frame the argument/debate.  Of course gun control is discussed when a situation like this happens.  If a drunk driver kills a school bus full of children, are we not supposed to talk about drinking and driving?  People get so defensive.  If this isn't a proper occasion to at least examine gun control laws, then what would be the right situation?  Why does everything have to turn into a political wedge issue?  Cite to the post which suggests we should ban guns or admit you are taking a mole hole and creating a mountain.

 

FYI EVD, the fact that he stole the gun from his uncle does not absolve his uncle.  Read the law.  The question is how did the uncle secure his firearm.  Can you answer that?  If you can't, then that question still remains and the uncle still faces possible charges, not to mention a potential civil suit from the parents of the victims even if he is not criminally charged/convicted (see OJ).

I don't give a sh!t about gun rights and my position has nothing to do with politics.  You've completely failed to understand my point based on your own preconceived notions and political beliefs.  So spare me the lecture.

 

Read the sentence of yours I quoted.  That is what 90% of my post was refuting.  Or are you trying to say MY bias doesn't allow me to see the "fact" that the media only reports massacres committed with guns. :roll:

 

I think, rather, that you have displayed your preconceived notions of what other think and believe.  As a matter of fact, it seems you know better than I do what I think about gun rights, seeing as I didn't mention anything about my stance and actually don't even know where I stand on the issue as of now.  But if I do decide I fall on the gun ownership side of this issue, it sure won't be because of the ridiculous arguments put forth by the people who just spout out the 2nd Amendment as if it gives them the right to carry any weapon they want.

 

Also, please reread where I said that "of course" there are other problems.  But does that mean we can't fight multiple problems at once?

 

And I get the impression that everyone seems to think that if you just removed the gun, that this is a problem, but it's not really that big of a problem.  It's only a really big problem because the kid got a gun.

 

Well, your impression (or putting words into people's mouths) is wrong.  I think there's still a big problem without the gun, but I think most people would agree that the gun makes it an even bigger problem.  I haven't seen anyone suggest that there wouldn't still be a problem if the gun were removed.  But there is also a good chance there wouldn't be three kids dead right now either.

 

That doesn't mean I think it's OK to just not allow anybody to have a gun, but I think it does warrant some discussion about whether we can do more to keep them out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them.

 

I think people just see gun control as a possible point of intervention to reduce lethality, not some cure-all for violent crime.  And it's a strategy that lots of people think hasn't been really tried in earnest in the U.S. for political reasons.

 

Constitutional reasons actually, and the reason it has not been tried is concern over where in part it might lead.  That's why advocates of the right to bear arms push back so hard....to avoid establishing precedents that could be abused.

Folks, let's get back on topic. Thanks.

Taking aim at gun enablers: Christopher Evans

 

A proud enabler of the gun culture, Juvenile Court Judge Tim Grendell will now help judge a teenage suspect charged with committing a heinous crime, a massacre made possible by spineless political kowtowing to the gun lobby. How sick is that?

 

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2012/03/taking_aim_at_guns_enablers_ch.html

I'm surprised the writer was able to write that,  seeing as how he was busy patting his own back with one hand,  and pointing fingers at anyone else but the murderer with his other.

Taking aim at gun enablers: Christopher Evans

 

A proud enabler of the gun culture, Juvenile Court Judge Tim Grendell will now help judge a teenage suspect charged with committing a heinous crime, a massacre made possible by spineless political kowtowing to the gun lobby. How sick is that?

 

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2012/03/taking_aim_at_guns_enablers_ch.html

 

Um....can I reply to this sh......errrrr......article without being busted for willful offtopicness?

There was an attempted break-in at the building I own in CH, luckily the deadbolt held up so there was damage, but they didn't get in.  Also, I have heard there have been several successfull break-ins of businesses on Lee Road. 

 

Cops told me they catch one and there's six more to take their place.

That's because they don't put them away. 

 

I know of a guy who's been busted for misdemeanor theft three times during the last year (Bedford, Macedonia twice) and has just been bound over for felony receiving stolen property.  He got three suspended sentences.

^The problem is that we have the highest incarceration rate in the world and our jails are packed with nonviolent offenders and people on sentences that are much longer than what they would be in most of the rest of the world.  We need to revisit out mandatory sentencing laws and change the way we handle nonviolent drug offenders.

Wasnt sure where to put this. Kind of funny and stupid. There is a video.

 

City Hall sexcapades

EASTLAKE, Ohio (WKYC) - An Eastlake,Ohio city employee admits that he exposed himself and sent photos of his genitals to a co-worker as part of a "private parts contest."

 

Building Inspector Rich Vild dropped his pants in front of two female co-workers in September while they were standing in the parking lot of a Wickliffe night club.

 

Vild also sent a photo of his penis to a different female colleague's cell phone.

 

http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/city-hall-sexcapades

 

Wasnt sure where to put this. Kind of funny and stupid. There is a video.

 

City Hall sexcapades

EASTLAKE, Ohio (WKYC) - An Eastlake,Ohio city employee admits that he exposed himself and sent photos of his genitals to a co-worker as part of a "private parts contest."

 

Building Inspector Rich Vild dropped his pants in front of two female co-workers in September while they were standing in the parking lot of a Wickliffe night club.

 

Vild also sent a photo of his penis to a different female colleague's cell phone.

 

http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/city-hall-sexcapades

 

While I had no intention of clicking on that link anyway, telling me there's a video is certainly not going to convince me.

I wonder why it was a news story in Massachusetts.  It doesn't seem like it should have been one in Cleveland  (I mean who hasnt exposed there genitals to people they work with?). 

Sounds like those folks are still stuck in kindergarten.

http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/240945/45/Brooklyn--Multiple-shooting-on-Tiedeman-Road?odyssey=tab|topnews|bc|large

 

WTF? This just sad and bizarre...

 

Brooklyn: 3 dead in Cracker Barrel shooting

12:42 AM, Apr 13, 2012  |  4  comments

 

 

BROOKLYN -- Three are dead and one in the hospital after a police-involved shooting at the Cracker Barrel on Tiedeman Road in Brooklyn Thursday night.

 

Police believe a husband shot three members of his family just before 9 p.m.

 

Read more: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,4065.2940.html#ixzz1rvM2ckJZ

 

http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/240945/45/Brooklyn--Multiple-shooting-on-Tiedeman-Road?odyssey=tab|topnews|bc|large

 

WTF? This just sad and bizarre...

 

Brooklyn: 3 dead in Cracker Barrel shooting

12:42 AM, Apr 13, 2012  |  4  comments

 

 

BROOKLYN -- Three are dead and one in the hospital after a police-involved shooting at the Cracker Barrel on Tiedeman Road in Brooklyn Thursday night.

 

Police believe a husband shot three members of his family just before 9 p.m.

 

Read more: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,4065.2940.html#ixzz1rvM2ckJZ

 

 

Been there many times. I can't imagine having dinner there while someone a few tables over blows away his family. That's just crazy.

 

Something just happened during the noon hour across the street from me at the Day's Inn in Lakewood. Four police cars and an ambulance showed up.

My Mom and I were just at that Cracker Barrel like 3 weeks ago. And they wonder why women don't get out of bad relationships. It's getting increasingly hard for NRA types to justify everyone having a gun, methinks.

^ I was just there on Easter for breakfast. Just read they were out to celebrate their daughter's 10th bday.  How sad. 

It's not clear to me if she had told him and then she and the kids left to go to the restaurant, or what. I mean, surely you wouldn't have the whole family around to tell your husband you're leaving him. Just awful.

It's not clear to me if she had told him and then she and the kids left to go to the restaurant, or what. I mean, surely you wouldn't have the whole family around to tell your husband you're leaving him. Just awful.

 

This is a big-time guess on my part, but I wonder if she wanted to tell him at a public place in an attempt to protect herself and her children from a physical response. Normally, that works. The exception is when the guy is so psycho that there's nothing she could have done to protect herself or her children. This guy sounds like a family annihilator/major control freak. The only safe place she could have told him is if he were in a bullet-proof room alone and they let him keep his loaded gun with him.

^Well he knew where she was and she had to tell him.

So my brother has a new Marin bike.  Fairly nice.  He had to go to something at the Mayfield-Lee intersection yesterday, was in a rush, and couldn't find a place to tie down his bike with the chain he had.  He decided to use the chain to lock the tires as he wasn't going to be inside long.  He comes out of the building and there is a large crowd gathered on the sidewalk with cars stopped.  Some kid is laying on the concrete with a concussion like symptoms and road rash on his face and body.  Lucky for the kid, my brother found it amusing and did not call the cops (would have been attempted grand theft given the value).  He said he thinks the concrete already handed out the kid's sentence. 

 

Why does this story remind me of that commercial from Robocop? :)

 

 

 

So my brother has a new Marin bike.  Fairly nice.  He had to go to something at the Mayfield-Lee intersection yesterday, was in a rush, and couldn't find a place to tie down his bike with the chain he had.  He decided to use the chain to lock the tires as he wasn't going to be inside long.  He comes out of the building and there is a large crowd gathered on the sidewalk with cars stopped.  Some kid is laying on the concrete with a concussion like symptoms and road rash on his face and body.  Lucky for the kid, my brother found it amusing and did not call the cops (would have been attempted grand theft given the value).  He said he thinks the concrete already handed out the kid's sentence. 

 

Why does this story remind me of that commercial from Robocop? :)

 

 

 

 

On Mayfield and Lee Road.  Thats a nice and well populated area.

Hahah funny story and video. He should have called the cops though. Teach the kid another lesson out of it. ha!

Surveillance video of that would be great!  It would go straight the World's Dumbest Criminals.