45 minutes ago, osu97gp said:

I may have missed one or two, but here are the candidates who specifically mention streetcar expansion or light rail in varying degrees.

 

Streetcar:

Bill Frost

Kevin Flynn (with caveats of requiring realistic plans, whatever that means)

Galen G. Gordon (bonus FWW cap)

Kurt L. Grossman

Reggie Harris

Evan Holt

Logan Simmering

John J. Williams (University/Hospitals help fund/pay)

 

Light Rail:

Jaime M. Castle

Bill Frost

Phillip O'Neal

Logan Simmering

 

WVXU did separate out just the transportation responses here.

 

While I would have loved to see light rail 20 years ago, that ship has sailed and it is really a pie in the sky proposal at this point. At the recent OKI meeting Policinski stated light rail really is not realistic on their agenda now, so that says a lot. BRT is where transportation is in the region. Best to focus on that method to improve routes and transportation. 

The most likely rail expansion in Greater Cincinnati would be a streetcar expansion to Uptown or other neighborhoods (could be done by City of Cincinnati alone) or an expansion into Newport or Covington (which could be a project of those two cities).

 

Policinski will be running for political office soon and we'll have new leadership at OKI.

We at least need a council that is willing to perform the minimal investment in the streetcar that will prevent it from stopping anywhere other than at a station.

 

11 minutes ago, taestell said:

The most likely rail expansion in Greater Cincinnati would be a streetcar expansion to Uptown or other neighborhoods (could be done by City of Cincinnati alone) or an expansion into Newport or Covington (which could be a project of those two cities).

 

Policinski will be running for political office soon and we'll have new leadership at OKI.

 

Notably, an extension to Newport is in the OKI long range plan. 

 

Also, interesting theory on Policinski. Do you have inside info? What position would he even run for? 

46 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

While I would have loved to see light rail 20 years ago, that ship has sailed and it is really a pie in the sky proposal at this point. At the recent OKI meeting Policinski stated light rail really is not realistic on their agenda now, so that says a lot. BRT is where transportation is in the region. Best to focus on that method to improve routes and transportation. 

 

The OKI board is made up of local elected officials and folks from SORTA, TANK, CVG, etc. If the new mayor/council, the heads of SORTA and TANK, and the CEO of CVG came out in favor of light rail that would be a game changer.

1 hour ago, DEPACincy said:

 

The OKI board is made up of local elected officials and folks from SORTA, TANK, CVG, etc. If the new mayor/council, the heads of SORTA and TANK, and the CEO of CVG came out in favor of light rail that would be a game changer.

Given the current makeup of it, do you see that as a possibility in the forseeable future? Policinski is getting older so he cant have too much more time left at OKI. 

8 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Given the current makeup of it, do you see that as a possibility in the forseeable future? Policinski is getting older so he cant have too much more time left at OKI. 

 

I don't know. I'm just saying I don't think the comments were that revealing. We all know that current elected officials have no interest in light rail and we knew that before that interview. Could a Mayor Pureval push for it? I could see that happening. If that happened, I think we'll be having a different conversation. I think folks at CVG would like to have a line connecting the airport with downtown. If Aftab and Candace McGraw got together with the business community and went around the region selling the benefits to people in Blue Ash, Mason, West Chester, Clermont County, etc. then it could happen.

IMO I think the City of Cincinnati needs to just try to go it alone and build light rail from the west side to downtown and on to the east side. Have it stop at the city limits and make it clear that it won't expand until Hamilton County and NKY are on board. I can think of several light rail lines that were built without a stop at the airport in the initial phases. Building East-West would probably build support on the West Side too.

49 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

I don't know. I'm just saying I don't think the comments were that revealing. We all know that current elected officials have no interest in light rail and we knew that before that interview. Could a Mayor Pureval push for it? I could see that happening. If that happened, I think we'll be having a different conversation. I think folks at CVG would like to have a line connecting the airport with downtown. If Aftab and Candace McGraw got together with the business community and went around the region selling the benefits to people in Blue Ash, Mason, West Chester, Clermont County, etc. then it could happen.

But my question, and hopefully you can lend insight into this, is how much power would mayor (Pureval or Mann) have? I thought OKI which is the main party making the decisions is made up more of county appointed officials as well as employed burreaucrats like Policinski? I thought the city did have some representation on there but their influence was fairly small. Although, they do have a lot of influence over SORTA so maybe that helps?

On 5/26/2021 at 6:09 PM, stashua123 said:

I saw the Mohawk Neighborhood plan was finalized and passed by City Council. One of the interesting plans I saw was this.

This plan would create an incline from Henry Street to Bellevue Park. 

 

Probably will not happen but would be interesting. 

 

I really hope during the budget fight we see council try to get money to study the Uptown Extension. 

The streetcar could easily be extended to serve Mohawk. It was make parking-constrained hillside sites along McMicken viable. And if you got it to Central Parkway, it would be a launching pad for extending into the West End. If it continued along McMicken, it could be extended via Marshall to Colerain to Camp Washington. Or along the surface subway ROW to Northside. The best thing is, the electrical power station at Findlay Market is oversized with enough capacity to get the streetcar halfway up the Vine Street hill to Uptown. So there's already enough power capacity to get it to Central Parkway. I have a hunch this happens before if goes to Uptown.

 

3 hours ago, taestell said:

I would not consider Kevin Flynn a streetcar supporter at all.

 

 

So in other words, he wanted to have a decorated trolley bus route that primarily functions as a parking shuttle, and he doesn't understand how that's different than a fixed rail modern streetcar. Plain and simple, he doesn't get it.

Flynn is an opponent of the streetcar, was quoted a year or so ago saying his vote to save the streetcar was the worst decision he ever made. 

Edited October 21, 20213 yr by John Schneider

54 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

But my question, and hopefully you can lend insight into this, is how much power would mayor (Pureval or Mann) have? I thought OKI which is the main party making the decisions is made up more of county appointed officials as well as employed burreaucrats like Policinski? I thought the city did have some representation on there but their influence was fairly small. Although, they do have a lot of influence over SORTA so maybe that helps?

 

The board is definitely tilted toward suburban interests. But I think that the mayor of Cincinnati has a lot of soft power in these kinds of situations. If he came out forcefully for it, along with folks at SORTA/TANK, CVG, and the business community--then I think that the suburban elected officials would jump on board. And, as others have pointed out, the city could go it alone. So a mayor and council that are pro-light rail could get a system started. Maybe they even get Covington and Newport on board with the idea. Once there's a trunk, I think the suburban folks will jump at the idea of getting their communities connected.

1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

I thought OKI which is the main party making the decisions

 

Is OKI really the main party making decisions? Their primary role is funneling federal money to regional projects. They are not a transit authority and they do not have control over what SORTA or the City of Cincinnati do.

To elaborate on my previous post about Cincy going it alone on light rail, they could basically just do the purple and blue lines from MetroMoves as a starter line. This might also allow for a tunnel under UC to connect to the subway lines downtown. The streetcar could then be expanded East and West to the Casino and Museum Center. Leave everything on the map that isn't in Ohio or the city limits off unless KY and Hamilton County are amenable. 

 

My Photoshop/Illustrator skills aren't good enough to make an updated transit map to reflect what I was talking about.

 

Edited October 21, 20213 yr by JaceTheAce41

I think the main problem is acquiring Right of Way, there are just not the intact pathways wide enough for two sets of tracks (light rail would require a train in both directions) that pass through or near activity centers. If there were, I think imagination would have been sparked by now enough that it would be an ongoing theme in our local discussion. 
 

there seems to be one on the west side south of Queen City Avenue in the forest between South Fairmount and the Walmart on Ferguson.  Would like to know more about if that could support rail. 

Edited October 21, 20213 yr by thebillshark

The City going alone, sounds great, and could certainly be effective but I'm worried that there isn't enough grant funding available to make this a project that would be politically feasible. I assume there would have to be grant funding to offset costs because there does not seem to be any political will to create yet another property tax to pay for it and the existing capital budget is too far in the hole to be of much help.

 

I also worry that general NIMBYism will creep in, preventing it from being constructed properly or to allow for the eventual TOD that would be create a strong ROI, but I guess that's more of a leadership issue, just like everything else.

I think in general there needs to be much more vocal advocacy movement to get an Uptown or even as John mentioned a Central Parkway extension of the Streetcar in the works. The movement kind of died down due to how strenous it was to even get the thing built, the constant fighting to even have it be a reality. And it happened but was downscaled from where it needed to be. I hear from many around UC that say that even if they werent in favor of it being built, it needs to be extended uptown to make it a cohesive system.

 

I think BRT is a fantastic idea, but I think a Streetcar connecting uptown and Downtown as well as the West End and perhaps Covington and Newport with a combo of BRT and Light Rail in other areas would work out very very well. 

 

Cranley almost got this wish last year, and some council members finally realized we needed free fares permanently. I dont believe with current council without PG or Jeff Pastor there ironically despite them both being corrupt, they supported the plan, with their replacements I highly doubt seeing that moving forward as it did then.

 

Free fares are working from a ridership perspective and have brought average weekly ridership number up to levels it was at in early 2017-late 2016. It is truly starting to be used as a transportation system envisioned.

 

If council can be lobbied to first implement signal priority for the Streetcar and second implement a study as recommended by the Green Cincinnati plan in 2018 to connect downtown and uptown with the Streetcar, that would be fantastic. We need a study funded in the next 6 months, as with federal infrastructure dollars we need to have a plan to act fast. 

 

Also side note - Jim Tarbell seemed to be a VERY vocal advocate of both the Streetcar extension and Light Rail for the city. 

16 hours ago, stashua123 said:

Also side note - Jim Tarbell seemed to be a VERY vocal advocate of both the Streetcar extension and Light Rail for the city. 

Tp clarify, are you saying he currently is a vocal advocate for the streetcar, in the past when it was first implemented, or both?

4 hours ago, Dev said:

Tp clarify, are you saying he currently is a vocal advocate for the streetcar, in the past when it was first implemented, or both?

both, if you look at his campaign video on facebook he explcitly stated he wanted the streetcar uptown and a regional rail system.

Weekly ridership has been consistently around 40-50k since June and has not had as much of a dropoff as prior years.

Weekly since Sept 2016

 

Daily since June 1st, 2021

 

I attribute higher weekly ridership into the fall to two things:

 

1. The weather in October has been unseasonably warm. That brings more people out and about. Will be interesting to see what happens in November.

2. The new FC Cincinnati stadium being open to full capacity. The team has had 7 home games since the beginning of September. And I've seen the streetcar used fairly heavily on gamedays.

 

And if the Bengals continue to play well, I suspect we will see an uptick from them too.

Edited October 23, 20213 yr by OliverHazardPerry

I adjusted my West End to Walnut Hills streetcar concept to extend north on Gilbert and then connect the Cincinnati Innovation District and the transit center planned for Uptown (which is now part of a large UC Health project.)

 

This line would also serve the Lincoln and Gilbert intersection for which a new effort to support Black owned businesses is named. 

 

It could help with food desert issues by connecting neighborhoods to the downtown Kroger.  

 

 

 

 

 

On 10/23/2021 at 3:08 PM, OliverHazardPerry said:

2. The new FC Cincinnati stadium being open to full capacity. The team has had 7 home games since the beginning of September. And I've seen the streetcar used fairly heavily on gamedays.

 

I was an FCC season ticket holder this season and caught the streetcar to every home match I attended, usually several hours before the match to visit friends at a bar. Even on weeknights, the train is filled fairly well with fans. After the match is a different story—the thing is absolutely packed at both Washington Park stations. Really cool to see. 

I do think an E/W route would be interesting. I'd personally love to see what is proposed above. Could the city fund this themselves? I'm not certain. But it is exciting to think about...

I think a spur from the Museum Center to the Casino is easy and it could be paid for by private entities. (I think FC would have interest in paying part of the cost to get fans to games easier, and the Casino would too). Both sites offer a lot of parking to circulate people from the outside of the city into town without the need for cars. 

 

The trek up Gilbert is also interesting. It it a lot easier of a grade than going up Clifton/Sycamore/Vine, etc. to the Univiersities. Plus it opens up an area that is rapidly improving and gentifying. I would just go straight up Gilbert instead of looping on McMillian and Taft and maybe extend it out to Victory. It seems easier. The key downside is that it does not really connect to the UC/Hospitals/Innovation Hub corridor so it does not attract to many new jobs. However, if it could connect to an E/W BRT route down MLK it could alleviate that issue some.

On 10/21/2021 at 3:04 PM, taestell said:

 

Is OKI really the main party making decisions? Their primary role is funneling federal money to regional projects. They are not a transit authority and they do not have control over what SORTA or the City of Cincinnati do.

 

This is correct. OKI is not making the decisions. The transit authorities and the city make the decisions. OKI only comes into play if they apply for federal dollars from OKI. And I have no doubt that they would be awarded the money if they had a real plan in place to make it happen.

On 10/21/2021 at 3:43 PM, JaceTheAce41 said:

 

My Photoshop/Illustrator skills aren't good enough to make an updated transit map to reflect what I was talking about.

 

Very crude. But black line represents what Cincinnati could do. Brown line represents what could get built with Covington and Newport on board.

On 10/21/2021 at 4:51 PM, thebillshark said:

I think the main problem is acquiring Right of Way, there are just not the intact pathways wide enough for two sets of tracks (light rail would require a train in both directions) that pass through or near activity centers. If there were, I think imagination would have been sparked by now enough that it would be an ongoing theme in our local discussion.

 

There is actually right-of-way for most of the lines in the Metro Moves plan I think. But also, you could run it up the middle of any of our overly wide streets. Like the purple line could just go right up Central Parkway in the center if you reduce it to one car lane in each direction.

30 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

There is actually right-of-way for most of the lines in the Metro Moves plan I think. But also, you could run it up the middle of any of our overly wide streets. Like the purple line could just go right up Central Parkway in the center if you reduce it to one car lane in each direction.

If you’re talking about something that runs in the street (not grade separated), it is subject to having to stop at all the traffic lights, watching for pedestrians and other vehicles etc. Then it’s something more streetcar-like than light-rail like. https://cincinnatiideas.com/light-rail-vs-streetcar/

32 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

If you’re talking about something that runs in the street (not grade separated), it is subject to having to stop at all the traffic lights, watching for pedestrians and other vehicles etc. Then it’s something more streetcar-like than light-rail like. https://cincinnatiideas.com/light-rail-vs-streetcar/

 

I mean in a dedicated lane, separated from traffic. It would still interact with traffic at intersections but you can have an on-coming train automatically trigger a green light, so travel times would be similar to completely grade-separated light rail.

In Salt Lake, TRAX runs on the street through most of downtown and up the hill to the university 

21 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

I mean in a dedicated lane, separated from traffic. It would still interact with traffic at intersections but you can have an on-coming train automatically trigger a green light, so travel times would be similar to completely grade-separated light rail.

 

Houston is a good example of what you're talking about:

 

https://goo.gl/maps/AYQAiroPJuycFHv17

 

As for existing ROW for the metro moves plan - I believe several chunks of ROW have been sold off over the years. Some people would say it was sold off on purpose so as to make future rail development more difficult. Unfortunately several of the people who know tons about this have been chased off this forum.

I see what you’re all saying, and took a look at Portland Max on Google maps as well, there are indeed several long portions that run down the middle of the street. But there’s a few things to note. The median of the street is blocked so that all minor cross streets and curb cuts are right turn only onto the street with rail. Also these streets tend to be on a grid with parallel streets nearby that make this configuration more feasible. In Cincinnati our arterials are often the only continuous route traveling through neighborhood business districts where it would be a big political fight to take over the right of way and implement the turn restrictions necessary for blocking off the median. Which brings me back to my original point, if there were obvious routes I think this would more of an ongoing part of our local conversation.

 

This might be more feasible on Central Parkway as there are some long stretches without minor streets or curb cuts for major businesses compared to other routes but there would probably still be some pushback. EDIT: although from Brighton to Ludlow you could have both tracks separated on the west side of the road with few conflicts. 

Edited October 31, 20213 yr by thebillshark

Look at this post in the r/Cincinnati subreddit today.

 

 In September, the Streetcar was the third most ridden transit line in Ohio. It gave more than five times as many rides per hour as TANK and Metro and total ridership was equal to half of TANK's *entire system*. Here are some proposed ideas for what streetcar expansion could look like in the future : cincinnati 

https://www.reddit.com/r/cincinnati/comments/qkie7m/in_september_the_streetcar_was_the_third_most/

The concept (all credit goes to whomever made this amazing thing)

 

^Nice visuals but typically you wouldn’t have something like the yellow line bulge through downtown Cincinnati on a transit line (where only one direction takes a long detour.)  Say if you were going from Paul Brown Stadium to the arena on that map it would take you 5 minutes in one direction but 25 minutes coming back (you would probably just walk instead in the second case.)

Edited November 2, 20213 yr by thebillshark

One issue with those concept maps (and the existing streetcar) is the reliance on loops. I understand that the streetcar is a circulator but any new lines need to be linear. IMO you could develop a streetcar/bus only lane on some of the wider streets in the city and use stations for both. Add in signal priority for both and that would be awesome. Any new additions need to lay the foundation for light rail through the city IMO.

For that proposed NKY loop, it might make sense to add a westbound transit-only contraflow lane on Second Street rather than swinging up to Third Street.

 

Here's an example of a bus-only contraflow lane in downtown Seattle:

 

 

Denver light rail also comes to mind — it runs on several one-way streets downtown, but in a contraflow lane headed the opposite direction as vehicle traffic.

 

 

 

 

 

Also at the Cincinnati Zoo, there is no need for a loop through their parking lot. You'd just have a dead end where the driver would move to the cabin at the other end of the streetcar, and the back would become the front for the return trip down the hill.

As nice as it is, given how hard it was to get it done on the Cincinnati side many years ago. Is it even realistic to talk about building a connector into Covington? 

Given their aversion to bridge tolls and the like. How realistic would it be that they would want to fund a Streetcar system on their side of the river?

52 minutes ago, taestell said:

Also at the Cincinnati Zoo, there is no need for a loop through their parking lot. You'd just have a dead end where the driver would move to the cabin at the other end of the streetcar, and the back would become the front for the return trip down the hill.

 

If the line is dual track (which it should be) you'd just have a crossover track on one end of the final station. Any expansions need to be linear and double-tracked.

Hmmph. Leads a slight window but seems like no. 

 

Unlike cranley I don't see him being stubborn and unwilling to change so we will see. But not the best news. 

https://local12.com/news/local/cincinnati-mayor-elect-aftab-pureval-lays-out-priorities-after-historic-win

Edited November 4, 20213 yr by stashua123

I don't think there's going to be any appetite to expand the streetcar in Cincinnati, unfortunately. We should focus on making the bus system as efficient as possible and encouraging good urban development that reduces the ease of parking. 

1 hour ago, ryanlammi said:

I don't think there's going to be any appetite to expand the streetcar in Cincinnati, unfortunately. We should focus on making the bus system as efficient as possible and encouraging good urban development that reduces the ease of parking. 

I think we have to think bigger than this to remain competitive as a city in the coming years. 

19 minutes ago, stashua123 said:

I think we have to think bigger than this to remain competitive as a city in the coming years. 

 

I understand the desire to expand the streetcar in Cincinnati, but I really don't think it's going to happen.

 

We can spend orders of magnitude more money in the coming decade making every corner of the city more walkable, more transit oriented, safer, and less car dependent with a fraction of the effort if we pursue it from a smart direction. It will create a much more interesting, sustainable, and desirable city than another few miles of rail. Barring a major tax to fund full light rail, I don't see expanding the streetcar as realistic. We need to get to the nuts and bolts of a walkable city instead of the big flashy project. 

 

I'll support streetcar extensions if federal funding avails itself, but I'm not going to be fighting for it without some major change in statewide or national politics.

6 hours ago, ryanlammi said:

I'll support streetcar extensions if federal funding avails itself, but I'm not going to be fighting for it without some major change in statewide or national politics

And Aftab has said as much in his campaign.  The wild card could be an 8-1 city council, but I see them adopting the same vision.  Hopefully they push OKI to apply like bananas for grants.

11 hours ago, ryanlammi said:

 

I understand the desire to expand the streetcar in Cincinnati, but I really don't think it's going to happen.

 

We can spend orders of magnitude more money in the coming decade making every corner of the city more walkable, more transit oriented, safer, and less car dependent with a fraction of the effort if we pursue it from a smart direction. It will create a much more interesting, sustainable, and desirable city than another few miles of rail. Barring a major tax to fund full light rail, I don't see expanding the streetcar as realistic. We need to get to the nuts and bolts of a walkable city instead of the big flashy project. 

 

I'll support streetcar extensions if federal funding avails itself, but I'm not going to be fighting for it without some major change in statewide or national politics.

 

I agree with this and Aftab has said he wants to ensure that the system is working as best as possible. At the very least we may see the improvements @thomasbw has been sharing over the last few years.

 

 

15 minutes ago, JYP said:

 

I agree with this and Aftab has said he wants to ensure that the system is working as best as possible. At the very least we may see the improvements @thomasbw has been sharing over the last few years.

 

 

I'll update that list to include the two lights that are now unnecessary due to streateries and send that over to his staff. 

6 hours ago, 10albersa said:

And Aftab has said as much in his campaign.  The wild card could be an 8-1 city council, but I see them adopting the same vision.  Hopefully they push OKI to apply like bananas for grants.

I do think at the very least even if it will not happen in the next 4 years, there should be another study done to make sure if federal money becomes available we have a viable project all planned out.

12 hours ago, ryanlammi said:

 

I understand the desire to expand the streetcar in Cincinnati, but I really don't think it's going to happen.

 

We can spend orders of magnitude more money in the coming decade making every corner of the city more walkable, more transit oriented, safer, and less car dependent with a fraction of the effort if we pursue it from a smart direction. It will create a much more interesting, sustainable, and desirable city than another few miles of rail. Barring a major tax to fund full light rail, I don't see expanding the streetcar as realistic. We need to get to the nuts and bolts of a walkable city instead of the big flashy project. 

 

I'll support streetcar extensions if federal funding avails itself, but I'm not going to be fighting for it without some major change in statewide or national politics.

It does not need to be either or, both can be done realistically with federal infastructure money coming through. 

 

Uptown is growing fast, and the amount of students in Clifton has ballooned, parking is incredibly hard yet public transit in clifton is laughable, esp near UC, where to go to many places a car is required.

 

Connecting the two jobs centers with a system already in place, which will not end up being 150 million like the original phase was, and to allow University students to access downtown would be priceless in making the streetcar a public transit center that does what it was originally intended to do, connect. 

Edited November 4, 20213 yr by stashua123

Updated map and estimates