26 minutes ago, IAGuy39 said:

So basically, it is working!!!

 

Amazing, when you remove obstacles to success, you allow success. Who would have thought?

 

Again as others mentioned, hopefully the administration can get their tail ends in gear to the fixes throughout to make it even better infrastructure.

 

If 2022 had 846k riders, a 35% increase this year would put it at 1,142,000, which is over 3k a day. I think that is entirely feasible just looking at the numbers and how well January went.

 

1,000,000 streetcar rides per year is something to be very proud of.

 

Did we ever get an update on signal prioritization? 

BACK ON TRACK

After year of record ridership, what's next for Cincinnati's streetcar?

The Cincinnati Connector saw record ridership in 2022

By Chris Wetterich  –  Staff reporter and columnist, Cincinnati Business Courier

Feb 24, 2023

 

A day five years ago this month may have been the Cincinnati streetcar’s most embarrassing one.

 

Cincinnati was slammed by freezing rain, which coated the overhead electric lines with ice. Typically, the streetcar would run the route with its pantograph, the pole that transfers power from the lines to the train, clearing ice as precipitation fell. But a disabled vehicle blocked it that day, leaving enough time for a frozen layer to form.

 

It all led to a surreal sight: A semi-truck – complete with police escort – towing the powerless streetcar, with no riders, around downtown to remove the ice.

 

Before that, the streetcar was beset with problems, such as vehicles blocking or crashing into it, the trains breaking down in the cold and riders being confused by the ticketing machines.

 

MORE

The article doesn't say anything we haven't already discussed here, but John's top expansion picks are interesting. 

1: Politically difficult, but obviously the best choice.

2: My favorite option if we get 4 daily Chicago trains plus 3C+D.  I'm going to breakdown this route because I'm not sure I agree that development potential is that limited.

3: Would be nice, but yeah development is limited here.

4: Completely agree with the assessment, this route is a sleeper option.

5: We'll have "BRT" rolling through here every 7 minutes, makes this a tough sell.

A few things. If you are making an article about the streetcar at least get the route correct; it doesn't go down Vine street. Second thing, I personally have long thought the #4 route would be great. McMicken and the upper West End have a ton of development potential and Camp Washington does as well. It would also allow for an easy extension up Spring Grove to Northside.

 

Also I agree with your assessment that #2 has more development potential than listed, especially around Union Terminal, but more importantly the route shouldn't just end at Elm, it should continue over to the Casino down Central and be joined with a hybrid version of #3 as well to create a true East / West route that connects our major museums as well as neighborhoods with good development potential. 

On option #2:

 

Section 1: OTR: I'd route this on 12th, where the streetcar is already going West.  In green, the likely redevelopment spots.  CET is already looking to redevelop that block, but may increase scope of residential if it's along a new line. Freestore is highlighted in yellow (less likely), but potential $$$ may be too good to pass up.

 

Section 2: Linn St:

Here's where I disagree.  Yes, the Laurel Park lots are SFH, but that's still 30-ish more units downtown that is more likely to happen if a streetcar connected them to OTR.  But the real get here is activating Linn St.  I count 4 properties within a block or two of the stop that would be ripe for mixed-use.  The library branch can and should be rebuilt with housing on top. 

 

Segment 3: Union Terminal:

Obviously the lots could be parking garages +mixed-use, but those are huge swaths of land and that would be a gigantic development and almost makes the route worth it on it's own.  There's also a few outer lots that could sell.

On 1/31/2007 at 10:47 PM, Eigth and State said:

 

  "You'd also need parking for the staff."

 

    Oh, the irony. I am in favor of streetcars or light rail as much as the next guy, but gee, what kind of message does it convey when the streetcar drivers and mechanics have to drive to work?  :|

We need more streetcars!!!!

I also think there's no reason those Laurel lots have to remain SFH. They could be built upon with small-scale multifamily. 

The fact that it's not obvious as to how to expand the streetcar is troublesome.  If it ought to be expanded, one route ought to be the standout.  In Kansas City, the obvious expansion is south on Main St. to the Plaza and the UMKC campus, and that's what is happening.  In Cincinnati, the obvious expansion is north to the UC campus, then northeasterly to the hospitals and Xavier University.  That...is apparently not happening.  

 

There are two types of expansions - ones that create spurs and ones that extend the existing, single line.  The creation of a eastward or a westward spur in Cincinnati is a bad idea.  Kansas City's expansion is an extension, not a spur.  It will not zig-zag through the street grid.  

 

 

 

 

 

    

1 hour ago, 10albersa said:

The article doesn't say anything we haven't already discussed here, but John's top expansion picks are interesting. 

1: Politically difficult, but obviously the best choice.

2: My favorite option if we get 4 daily Chicago trains plus 3C+D.  I'm going to breakdown this route because I'm not sure I agree that development potential is that limited.

3: Would be nice, but yeah development is limited here.

4: Completely agree with the assessment, this route is a sleeper option.

5: We'll have "BRT" rolling through here every 7 minutes, makes this a tough sell.

I think the cold water thrown on the Union terminal route is interesting. 

I was a bit surprised by Schieder's assessment of Walnut Hills, but I get his point about the increased bus service really limiting the potential ROI.

 

Route 1 is obviously the biggest No Brainer. Going through Newport and Covington would really connect the downtown region in a way it is not currently and allow people to move throughout the urban core better than most cities. The challenge is if the political will is there in Kentucky to make it happen. My guess is no.

 

Route 4 - going to the West Side is intriguing and I can completely see how he is thinking. The Mohawk neighborhood down there is almost on a bit of an island. Connecting that and making it viable again would offer a strong ROI for expanding the line that direction. Being able to offer such amenities and update the housing stock in that area will provide the ability to attract a maybe a couple thousand new residents to an untapped neighborhood.  You can't achieve that as easily going to Walnut Hills (because it is already been tapped into by developers) and you do not get that as much going west to Union Terminal because (TQL will spur a lot of the development and it is too industrial on the West Side of 75) .

 

It is clear that Schneider is looking at it from a development play specifically and not so much transportation oriented play. It totally makes sense his perspective when thinking about it in terms of what will get the biggest bang for the buck. 

3 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

I also think there's no reason those Laurel lots have to remain SFH. They could be built upon with small-scale multifamily. 

I thought about calling out the Linn/Ezzard Charles corner lot as one that should be zoned mixed-use instead. But, yeah I agree

Remember when Jeff Berding/Lindner said they were going to develop affordable housing on the unused Hope VI lots?  Instead of building on vacant lots, they keep tearing down existing buildings to create more vacant lots.  

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

Remember when Jeff Berding/Lindner said they were going to develop affordable housing on the unused Hope VI lots?  Instead of building on vacant lots, they keep tearing down existing buildings to create more vacant lots.  

 

They are tearing down buildings to create housing and businesses.

19 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

They are tearing down buildings to create housing and businesses.

 

They tore down a few active businesses back in 2018, then after 2020 they forced the ballet and Tri-State to move.  From the city's perspective, the stadium has been a been a zero sum situation. 

 

It's been five years and not a single new business aside from the gift shop has appeared west of Central Parkway.  No concerts scheduled this year. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Lazarus said:

No concerts scheduled this year. 

There will be quite a few more soccer home games this year with MLS, Leagues Cup, US Open Cup and maybe the Gold Cup. That’s the primary function after all. There’s also a rumor of a college football bowl game

On 2/25/2023 at 12:25 PM, Lazarus said:

 

They tore down a few active businesses back in 2018, then after 2020 they forced the ballet and Tri-State to move.  From the city's perspective, the stadium has been a been a zero sum situation. 

 

It's been five years and not a single new business aside from the gift shop has appeared west of Central Parkway.  No concerts scheduled this year. 

 

 

 

Lol so we're using the arbitrary distinction of west of Central Parkway? The businesses in OTR and downtown are reaping huge benefits. Every restaurant in OTR had a multiple hour wait Saturday night. Plus, there are big plans for new business, east and west of Central Parkway. I'm sure that you'll come back here in a few years and admit that you are wrong though. 

On 2/24/2023 at 11:29 AM, Brutus_buckeye said:

Route 4 - going to the West Side is intriguing and I can completely see how he is thinking. The Mohawk neighborhood down there is almost on a bit of an island. Connecting that and making it viable again would offer a strong ROI for expanding the line that direction. Being able to offer such amenities and update the housing stock in that area will provide the ability to attract a maybe a couple thousand new residents to an untapped neighborhood.

 

This seems like the best development play. The Central Parkway corridor (Mohawk, Brighton, West End, Camp Washington) is completely untapped and could create huge opportunities for housing. Would also be a necessary step to reaching Northside someday.

Edited February 28, 20232 yr by Miami-Erie
typo

2 minutes ago, Miami-Erie said:

 

This seems like the best development play. The Central Parkway corridor (Mohawk, Brighton, West End, Camp Washington) is completely untapped and could be create huge opportunities for housing. Would also be a necessary step to reaching Northside someday.

Also, what was the key goal of the Streetcar? Was it intended as a means of transportation or to spur development? 

You could certainly argue both ways. It does move people from one part of downtown to another, but in reality, is it that much more inconvenient for people to just walk to the destination? Given its limited scope and amount of people living in the footprint, I do not think of it as much of a transportation means but more as development. When the streetcar is there, you have a fixed means to move people to and from certain places (whether efficiently or inefficiently), that fixed means is permanent and cant be easily moved, so it will encourage developers to invest in that area. In areas with low investment, I think it is interesting how the Streetcar acts as a way to spur that development. 

 

While I am sure that the political means will never allow this to happen, but just spitballing here, it may be more efficient and effective in certain neighborhoods to spend money that would otherwise go to tax rebates or rollbacks on the streetcar expansion (such as the Mohawk neighborhood. You could theoretically get the same investement of dollars for the same price as tax rebates but now you have a fixed piece of infrastructure that will continue to serve the neighborhood and encourage even more future investment. I know that would be a heavy lift and impossible under the current structure of things but just thought it was worth noting. 

56 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Also, what was the key goal of the Streetcar? Was it intended as a means of transportation or to spur development? 

I think it's clear that the current alignment was meant to spur development, otherwise it wouldn't switch from Main/Walnut to Race/Elm which slows everything down just to hit more key destinations and cover more developable land. 

1 hour ago, Miami-Erie said:

This seems like the best development play. The Central Parkway corridor (Mohawk, Brighton, West End, Camp Washington) is completely untapped and could create huge opportunities for housing. Would also be a necessary step to reaching Northside someday.

I think Reaching Northside would be a great goal to have but is the streetcar the best method? Northside is a bit far (and slow moving) would it be better to have more of a dedicated rail ROW on certain parts of that route?

IMO the next expansion of the streetcar should focus more on being a transit focused. Any expansion will spur more development regardless. 

 

3 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Also, what was the key goal of the Streetcar? Was it intended as a means of transportation or to spur development? 

You could certainly argue both ways. It does move people from one part of downtown to another, but in reality, is it that much more inconvenient for people to just walk to the destination?

A marginal amount of people are going to be walking from turnaround to turnaround. 2nd to Central is over half a mile so that is not going to be a common walking or rolling trip either. Is the specific routing ideal for a streetcar? No, but the distance is.

I know that's not what you are referring to but that distinction needs to be kept in mind when discussing how effective an expansion could be as a people mover.

Thinking about expansion of the streetcar, I think a line up Reading to Xavier and an Uptown line from the zoo to Walnut hills makes sense. Here's a terrible photoshop of what I'm thinking.

2 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

Thinking about expansion of the streetcar, I think a line up Reading to Xavier and an Uptown line from the zoo to Walnut hills makes sense. Here's a terrible photoshop of what I'm thinking.

 

This land is going to be used for the expansion of Wasson Way so getting rail built on it would be difficult. 

 

 

3 hours ago, RustyBFall said:

This land is going to be used for the expansion of Wasson Way so getting rail built on it would be difficult. 

 

As was Cranley's intention.

 

On 2/26/2023 at 9:27 PM, DEPACincy said:

 

The businesses in OTR and downtown are reaping huge benefits.

 

To the detriment of Mecklenburg Gardens, Martino's, Adriatico's, and the other restaurants that used to get the FC crowd.  This is why the soccer-specific stadium was a zero sum exercise, just like any sports team leaves a shared facilities situation.   

 

 

 

 

11 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

To the detriment of Mecklenburg Gardens, Martino's, Adriatico's, and the other restaurants that used to get the FC crowd.  This is why the soccer-specific stadium was a zero sum exercise, just like any sports team leaves a shared facilities situation.   

 

 

 

 

All of those establishments have the built in customer base of 40,000+ UC students. Not to mention UC football and basketball game days. They had a small boom in business on those 17 home FCC game days, but it's not like they are located in no-mans-land now. 

 

But back to the streetcar expansion. I think it would be an excellent idea to run a line up Vine Street to connect UC with OTR/downtown and another spur up Gilbert towards Walnut Hills. With the long term plan to eventually connect the UC line and Walnut Hills line along MLK as well as an extension of the UC line towards Xavier.

18 hours ago, RustyBFall said:

This land is going to be used for the expansion of Wasson Way so getting rail built on it would be difficult.

Most recent update on that route:
 

On 2/28/2023 at 11:43 AM, Brutus_buckeye said:

I think Reaching Northside would be a great goal to have but is the streetcar the best method? Northside is a bit far (and slow moving) would it be better to have more of a dedicated rail ROW on certain parts of that route?

 

I would expect fewer stops/stations from Northside to OTR than along the circulator route downtown

45 minutes ago, Dev said:

Most recent update on that route:
 

There’s a planned transit center going in on Harvey Avenue, (approx. at Harvey and Ridgeway on west side of Harvey). They should plan for a trail spur/bike lanes from Wasson Way going across Reading Road over to it. (Could implement using Ridgeway Ave., the south side of Ridgeway is becoming NIOSH campus.)

Edited March 1, 20232 yr by thebillshark

1 hour ago, Miami-Erie said:

 

I would expect fewer stops/stations from Northside to OTR than along the circulator route downtown

 

You could go up the middle of Spring Grove in a dedicated ROW.

17 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

You could go up the middle of Spring Grove in a dedicated ROW.

 

Makes all the sense in the world. Lots of development potential all along the route

19 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

You could go up the middle of Spring Grove in a dedicated ROW.

 

Interesting. The drawing in the Courier article showed "Route 4" proposal following Colerain Ave through Camp Washington... but I see your point that Spring Grove could make more sense: larger ROW and larger parcels for redevelopment. I also see some advantages to the Colerain Ave route, since Colerain feels more "human scaled" with smaller lot sizes and has more potential to feel like an fine-grained, urban fabric. 

 

I'm not sure if the Monmouth bridge and Ludlow viaduct over 75 could handle the streetcar, but if so, the route could jog up to Central Parkway and then continue north to pass by Cincinnati State and then continue to Northside. That 1.5 miles would add a lot of value to Route 4, in my opinion. At 2.5 miles, Route 4 is already the longest in terms of length of track of the proposals, so adding 1.3 additional miles would make it a 3.8 mile extension. I'm sure that would be quite expensive, but also have a lot of impact in terms of connecting existing users and spurring future development. 

 

2 hours ago, jwulsin said:

 

Interesting. The drawing in the Courier article showed "Route 4" proposal following Colerain Ave through Camp Washington... but I see your point that Spring Grove could make more sense: larger ROW and larger parcels for redevelopment. I also see some advantages to the Colerain Ave route, since Colerain feels more "human scaled" with smaller lot sizes and has more potential to feel like an fine-grained, urban fabric. 

 

I'm not sure if the Monmouth bridge and Ludlow viaduct over 75 could handle the streetcar, but if so, the route could jog up to Central Parkway and then continue north to pass by Cincinnati State and then continue to Northside. That 1.5 miles would add a lot of value to Route 4, in my opinion. At 2.5 miles, Route 4 is already the longest in terms of length of track of the proposals, so adding 1.3 additional miles would make it a 3.8 mile extension. I'm sure that would be quite expensive, but also have a lot of impact in terms of connecting existing users and spurring future development. 

 

It could run fast on Spring Grove, even giving it it's own lane then over to Blue Rock after the I-74 interchange, terminating at or near the Northside Transit Center.

I know it's unlikely to happen, but it would be nice if any expansion of the streetcar down Central Pkwy used the subway tunnels. I like the idea of dedicated RoW in Spring Grove. Anything to speed up the trip would be great

The Cincinnati Streetcar was #1 in the nation for ridership increase compared to pre-pandemic levels for January 2023 

Cincinnati compared to all other modern US streetcar systems 

Edited March 15, 20232 yr by thomasbw

25 minutes ago, thomasbw said:

 

Ridership is creeping up on the 3,000 daily rides that were predicted before it was built, and we might surpass that count during the summer months.  

 

 

3 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

Ridership is creeping up on the 3,000 daily rides that were predicted before it was built, and we might surpass that count during the summer months.  

 

 

Here's a thread on the shortcomings of the initial study's ridership projections 

 

Quote

Here's a thread on the shortcomings of the initial study's ridership projection

 

Thanks.  

Cincinnati streetcar breaks more ridership records; here's why

 

When it comes to the number of rides people are taking, the Cincinnati Streetcar is continuing its record-breaking ways.

 

A record number of people rode the streetcar in January, February and March, continuing a trend that started in 2022, when the streetcar broke monthly ridership records nearly every month.

 

Overall, ridership is up 47% in the first quarter of 2023 over 2022.

 

Favorable weather, a home Bengals playoff game, FC Cincinnati games and March events all potentially contributed to the ridership uptick, Cincinnati officials said. There has been a steady stream of first-time riders asking the city through its website about basic facts, including operation hours and how to ride it.

 

“It’s great to start the year with first-quarter results this strong,” said Lori Burchett, the city’s deputy director for streetcar services, told the Business Courier. “We’re very happy ridership continues to increase and set records.”

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/04/06/cincinnati-streetcar-ridership-records.html

 

Oklahoma City's ridership patterns are by far the strangest. Atlanta and Tacoma both had full system shutdowns which explains their drop offs. 

 

Edited April 7, 20232 yr by thomasbw
adding text

KC still surprises me as their system is still free.

4 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

KC still surprises me as their system is still free.

It surprises you that it is still down even though it’s free, or what? Since KC was always free, they didn’t get the Cincy free boost. And I think KC was perhaps more reliant on downtown workers, which are probably heavily remote, compared to Cincy having perhaps more residential (by comparison).

 

KC ridership will grow substantially when they get the extension completed.

3 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

It surprises you that it is still down even though it’s free, or what? Since KC was always free, they didn’t get the Cincy free boost. And I think KC was perhaps more reliant on downtown workers, which are probably heavily remote, compared to Cincy having perhaps more residential (by comparison).

 

KC ridership will grow substantially when they get the extension completed.

 

Cincinnati's has been free since COVID so, by logic, it would flatline like KC if we're going that route (heh) but it is still increasing ridership while KC's...has not.  I would've assumed KC's would've increased like Cincinnati and Tucson but that doesn't seem the case.

KC's higher ridership from being fare free was already "baked in" to their ridership pre-pandemic, so they didn't get a bump from that. 

 

One interesting thing I noticed was in January, KC's ridership per vehicle hour was 59 pax/hr and Cincinnati's was 58 pax/hr. 

 

A streetcar/southbank shuttle partnership could be the first step to exploring taking the streetcar across the river. 

 

 

On 4/7/2023 at 11:44 AM, thomasbw said:

 Atlanta and Tacoma both had full system shutdowns 

 

Atlanta's line is about to be extended 2~ miles onto the Beltline.  The current shutdown has nothing to do with this, however.  

 

The extension is going to be an interesting contrast to KC's.  In Kansas City, their extension will all be in-street whereas Atlanta's will be on an exclusive ROW, parallel to the Beltline recreational trail.  

 

https://www.itsmarta.com/uploadedFiles/More/About_MARTA/ATLANTA STREETCAR EAST (SCE) EXTENSION - Riders Advisory Council.pdf

 

Streetcar stations now have these QR codes for “arrival times.” The website loads about as fast as an Urban Ohio topic that’s trying to load a bunch of @KJP embedded tweets. 
 

When it does load, it takes you to this URL: https://bustracker.go-metro.com/hiwire?.a=iNextBusResults&StopId=2853781

 

Which is not mobile friendly, doesn’t show the line itself, and has the “scheduled” and “estimated” arrival times on the left. In fairness, it was accurate at least. 
 

The other option is to use the existing Transit app, which is great for regular users/frequent bus riders, but confusing for casual riders and first time users. Not to mention, takes time to download (and set up an account for) if you don’t already have it.

 

None of this would matter if the actual, digital “estimated arrival screens” at the stations themselves…

 

1) Were still in use

2) Ever worked properly in the first place

And still, those things wouldn’t have to be relied upon if the streetcar just operated on decent frequency and had signal optimization, etc. 

 

But hey, we’re only coming up on the 7th year of operation so maybe this city will get it right one day. 

Edited April 21, 20232 yr by Gordon Bombay