Has anyone looked at the feasibility of using "rack railway" vehicles, like in Stuttgart? Obviously it would be more expensive with the center "rail" and specialized vehicles (a complication for route design also, with mixed rolling stock), but it would make grade considerations moot and some of the cost could be offset by enabling shorter track length.

 

1 hour ago, John Schneider said:

Better, I think, to follow a "hit 'em where they ain't" strategy (to use an old baseball term). Pick routes with lots of vacant buildings and sites, especially large sites, with the objective of repopulation.

 

I think that makes more sense in flatter/more walkable areas. It's why the Union Terminal route, and even the Queensgate route, has great potential and the Reading route has little.

Here's a map I made the other day of my preferred rerouting for Camp Washington and Lick Run / South Fairmount. I would propose a Bank to Spring Grove alignment for Camp Washington. If you could connect a new bridge to a streetcar route on Spring Grove, then that would also be my preferred route for the Lick Run, but I understand that is unlikely, so I added thin alternative routings. I strongly believe a Spring Grove Avenue route for a Camp Washington alignment would be far more beneficial than one that follows Central Parkway to Marshall.

 

The only possible problem I see with the Spring Grove route is the Hopple Street bridge going over it. I don't know what kind of clearance would be needed for the overhead power lines. Development potential seems much higher along this route than along central Parkway. The Red Queensgate line would be the last one added in my hypothetical since it would rely on the completion of the Brent Spence realignment. As an aside, my Queensgate route uses Elm Street through the convention center expansion. I think fountain square/gov square makes the most sense, but I wouldn't really care what streets it ultimately takes between 5th and 9th. Depends on how you want to program events around Fountain Square and how the alignments work out over the new BSB corridor.

 

Stars are proposed stations (black stars are possible transfer points to new extensions/lines)

 

 

 

^ Maybe with the rail sale money they could fix the combined sewers once and for all, and in the process move the water main out of the subway tunnels. At that point a Central Parkway alignment (in the tunnels) would be good, but otherwise it suffers from being sandwiched between a highway and a hillside, which makes the west side of 75 much better.

21 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

We have a lot of UC interns and they all take the bus and like it. So you can add my anecdote to your store of knowledge.

 

I have lived around UC longer than those interns have likely been alive. 

 

They wouldn't know that we used to have "BRT" (if we use the current, wildly diluted working definition) on Clifton and W. Clifton next to and near UC.  For decades, the #17, #18, and #19 all ran between Northside and Downtown via Ludlow, Clifton, and W. Clifton.  Frequency was often every 5-8  minutes on this shared section, with buses bunching down the W. Clifton hill.  Vine St. was one-way northbound in Over-the-Rhine, meaning the Schwartz's Point traffic signals had fewer stages, meaning the buses got to pass through that intersection faster (signal priority!). 

 

Around 2010, Metro had a major budget cut that forced reconfiguration of its network.  The #18 was eliminated entirely.  The #19 was deflected from Clifton Ave. and made to travel on Jefferson Ave. and then through Corryville, partly covering the territory of the cancelled #51 (the #51 returned in 2022, but on a somewhat different routing - the #19 never returned to Clifton Ave.).   The frequency of the #17 - the last bus remaining on the west side of UC's campus, was reduced to maybe 3 buses per hour during peak service, and often just two buses midday.  It's now back up to 4/peak and 3/off-peak, but nowhere close to what it was. 

 

Discussions of "BRT" never seem to include the Harvard Square Bus Tunnel, which was built in the early 1980s, and ought to be a model for other universities (especially UC, as Harvard's student and faculty count is only about half of UC's).  

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's amazing how easily bus service gets cut since the '90s when reliable used cars were available for under $500, everyone had their driver's license from age 16 on and most people still liked cars.

 

Now cars that run are minimum $3000, people don't get their license until they're 25 and all you have to do is fart when the wind is wrong for them to take it. And cars are considered just another bill for existing like health insurance.

8 minutes ago, GCrites said:

 most people still liked cars.

 

Before AC, people drove around with their windows down for half of the year.  It was a lot more fun to drive since you were more engaged with the world.  You could hear other people's music at stop lights, even if they weren't playing it loudly.  School buses and even city buses still had sliding windows, so you were more engaged with the world (occasionally tree leaves would get in the bus).  Riding in perfectly cooled cars, buses, and the streetcar feels like you're in a fish tank. 

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

 

I have lived around UC longer than those interns have likely been alive. 

 

They wouldn't know that we used to have "BRT" (if we use the current, wildly diluted working definition) on Clifton and W. Clifton next to and near UC.  For decades, the #17, #18, and #19 all ran between Northside and Downtown via Ludlow, Clifton, and W. Clifton.  Frequency was often every 5-8  minutes on this shared section, with buses bunching down the W. Clifton hill.  Vine St. was one-way northbound in Over-the-Rhine, meaning the Schwartz's Point traffic signals had fewer stages, meaning the buses got to pass through that intersection faster (signal priority!). 

 

Around 2010, Metro had a major budget cut that forced reconfiguration of its network.  The #18 was eliminated entirely.  The #19 was deflected from Clifton Ave. and made to travel on Jefferson Ave. and then through Corryville, partly covering the territory of the cancelled #51 (the #51 returned in 2022, but on a somewhat different routing - the #19 never returned to Clifton Ave.).   The frequency of the #17 - the last bus remaining on the west side of UC's campus, was reduced to maybe 3 buses per hour during peak service, and often just two buses midday.  It's now back up to 4/peak and 3/off-peak, but nowhere close to what it was. 

 

Discussions of "BRT" never seem to include the Harvard Square Bus Tunnel, which was built in the early 1980s, and ought to be a model for other universities (especially UC, as Harvard's student and faculty count is only about half of UC's).  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cool story. I'm glad you've been around awhile. Not sure what it has to do with anything we are talking about in 2024 though. 

On 2/9/2024 at 3:10 PM, thomasbw said:

Here's a possible route. 

 

I cut the trackage from Ludlow to Hughes since that will be covered by BRT and condensed the couplet after Vine. I think we can easily do a two way conversion for McMillan now that the MLK interchange is open. 

 

Money saved from the above cuts (plus not needing a second MOF) might even cover the cost of the "forest route." You could have two routes, red+blue and purple.

Ohio Avenue on the way to Van Lear is most certainly more than 7%. Getting off Van Lear Alley and up into the paper street is even worse. Even with a ton of cuts and retaining walls, I think it's too steep to get to Graham Street from West Clifton, which is about 15% grade (205 foot rise for 1,360 foot run)

 

In any case the dead-end at Van Lear is privately owned. The Bellevue House Apartments also go down the hillside so they would block it from getting to Conklin.

2 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

Not sure what it has to do with anything we are talking about in 2024 though. 

Literally nothing. Construction costs rise much faster than inflation so after 40 years of that, and Federal austerity measurers, it's not a remotely comparable project.

21 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Cool story. I'm glad you've been around awhile. Not sure what it has to do with anything we are talking about in 2024 though. 

 

 

Everything being discussed here in February 2024 was discussed 15~ years ago in this very streetcar thread.  The grades of various hills, the paper street "forest" ROW, cog railways, etc.  

 

The handful of things that have changed since 2006:

-a small streetcar system exists

-funding for metro has shifted from the city to the county

-newspapers and talk radio used to drive ratings by stoking resentment toward the city

-Internet forums and Twitter used to fill in the fact gaps and refute newspaper/talk radio propaganda.  Now Twitter and internet forums behave like Human Resources departments. 

 

 

 

 

Jake. 

Just stop.

The more I look at the Red Line alignment, the more I like the idea of incorporating Gilbert Ave. By incorporating Gilbert, you could plan on a median-running two way line all the way up to Victory Pkwy or Madison. Those roads are wide enough to sacrifice lines to the streetcar and with signal priority and dedicated lanes, you'd have the makings of a pretty quick ride downtown. 

 

Now. If we want to get real crazy, we could lobby the city to build the LRT tunnel they looked at here https://www.uc.edu/cdc/urban_database/subregional/I-71_Light_Rail_Drawings.pdf

 

To be perfectly honest, if I had my druthers, and I've mentioned this before, I would just dust off the Metro Moves plan for LRT down the I-71 corridor then connect UC via the uptown streetcar line that's proposed. I have nothing to base this on, but I think it might cost less since the ROW is already there and this would set up nicely for LRT on the proposed Orange Line. BRT would be the main artery for getting from UC to downtown while LRT would supplement it.

 

 

On 2/10/2024 at 1:27 PM, Lazarus said:

 

Before AC, people drove around with their windows down for half of the year.  It was a lot more fun to drive since you were more engaged with the world.  You could hear other people's music at stop lights, even if they weren't playing it loudly.  School buses and even city buses still had sliding windows, so you were more engaged with the world (occasionally tree leaves would get in the bus).  Riding in perfectly cooled cars, buses, and the streetcar feels like you're in a fish tank. 

I loved driving from Iowa to Alabama with my window down the whole way. And getting a calling card to check in with my mom after I got past St Louis, using the Rand McNally and writing the Mile markers out. Worked pretty easily, now I drive it has the map tracking on at all times, not sure what happened to me either 

45 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

The more I look at the Red Line alignment, the more I like the idea of incorporating Gilbert Ave. By incorporating Gilbert, you could plan on a median-running two way line all the way up to Victory Pkwy or Madison. Those roads are wide enough to sacrifice lines to the streetcar and with signal priority and dedicated lanes, you'd have the makings of a pretty quick ride downtown.

The city already has a project in the pipeline for Gilbert, including $8 million in federal funding, so it's too late for that. Even if they worked as fast as possible, I don't think they would be able to get a FTA grant fast enough to coincide with the existing STBG grant. IIRC they have to spend the funds in 2026 so they would have needed to have won the grant for a streetcar as part of the project last year. For some reason, there's a 3 year delay on federal grants. The city isn't going to want to do a second major project on a corridor so soon after this one and I don't think the FTA would want to either.

Yes, city DOTE told us they didn't want the streetcar on Gilbert. SORTA is selling the I-71 right-of-way. Two BRT routes on Vine with five-minute headways at peak makes Federal funding for a streetcar there unlikely, notwithstanding all the problems with even getting the streetcar to Vine and the limits of the physical geometry available there. Pretty sure you can look at this a dozen different ways and end up concluding the only downtown-uptown alignment available is Reading Road.

Edited February 12, 20241 yr by John Schneider

14 hours ago, John Schneider said:

SORTA is selling the I-71 right-of-way

 

This kind of short-sided stuff consistently happens in Cincinnati and it's very frustrating. Yes we need more bike lanes but you shouldn't sacrifice key rail infrastructure for it.

1 hour ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

 

This kind of short-sided stuff consistently happens in Cincinnati and it's very frustrating. Yes we need more bike lanes but you shouldn't sacrifice key rail infrastructure for it.

 

Cranley was the mastermind behind this.  Remember how he was pro bike trail but opposed to bike lanes?  He divided progressives in Cincinnati by pitting bike advocates against public transportation advocates, and took any money that might have been spent on bike lanes toward blocking these light rail corridors with bike trails.  

 

 

 

 

Conniving and manipulative people have more fun than normals.

The good news is that you can always tear out a bike trail and just make some protected bike lanes instead. Baltimore is building a new LRT line on a bike path so hopefully Cincinnati can do the same somewhere down the line. 

1 hour ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

The good news is that you can always tear out a bike trail and just make some protected bike lanes instead. Baltimore is building a new LRT line on a bike path so hopefully Cincinnati can do the same somewhere down the line. 

I don't think that will be politically feasible, at least not for a very long time. The trails are linear parks and we are already starting to see the real estate market form around them so all those individual homeowners, including those not immediately adjacent to them, will fight like hell to keep that amenity.

 

The good news is that the trails are a trojan horse. Everyone who lives within a half mile or so will want more direct access, creating the political constituency to support on-street bike infrastructure as well as better walkability, as those improvements will increase access to them. So John Cranley might think that bikes don't belong on the road but he knocked over the domino that will lead to a robust bike network. The city's recent bike update heavily leaned on the CROWN with the vast majority of projects being some kind of spur off of it.

This is for the existing streetcar. No mention of expansion. Jeffreys and Lori Burchett were also on Cincinnati Edition today.
 

 

Take the survey here- https://storytellinglab.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_5j5pHnOH1uzgxO6

Top source of Cincinnati streetcar blockage removed

 

Metro is closing a downtown bus stop and moving passengers to another a half-block away, a move that advocates for the Cincinnati Connector streetcar believe could help speed up that mode of transportation.

 

Metro’s Government Square Area G stop is located at Main Street and Government Place on the east side of the street and will be closed. Government Square Area H is located at Sixth and Main streets and will take on the Route 6 bus. No other routes are affected, according to Metro.

 

“These service adjustments are a part of Metro’s ongoing commitment to better meet the evolving needs of the community and to ensure that service remains as consistent and reliable as possible,” the agency said in a news release.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2024/02/29/streetcar-blockage-metro-bus-stop-removed.html

 

6,000 riders for Bockfest Saturday. 

Has there been any movement on expansion? Any meetings with council or anything at all? 

On 3/5/2024 at 10:11 PM, JaceTheAce41 said:

Has there been any movement on expansion? Any meetings with council or anything at all? 

Nothing I'm aware of but ridership just continues to grow. 6,416 last Saturday.

 

Basically every Saturday the streetcar carries more passengers than the entire TANK system. 

13 hours ago, thomasbw said:

Nothing I'm aware of but ridership just continues to grow. 6,416 last Saturday.

 

Basically every Saturday the streetcar carries more passengers than the entire TANK system. 

 

I wish this perspective was more broadly shared.

16 hours ago, thomasbw said:

Nothing I'm aware of but ridership just continues to grow. 6,416 last Saturday.

 

Basically every Saturday the streetcar carries more passengers than the entire TANK system. 

 

TANK has done a good job with the #1 route redesign/stations and the extension of the #2 Airporter into Florence thanks to new road construction at the airport.  Nevertheless, it is disheartening to see how much bus ridership has dropped in our lifetimes:

 

 

As I have mentioned here many times, kicking TANK out of Dixie Terminal and off the Suspension Bridge was a mistake.  The current setup is much, much slower. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 20, 20241 yr by Lazarus

TANK and Metro have had similar ridership trajectories since 2002

Hmmm, I wonder why TANK spiked more because of 2008 than Metro. But then they both crater ostensibly because of high unemployment.

In 2018 I suggested to the City that we could fix the #1 cause of streetcar blockages for $0.00. Only took six years but they made the change March 3rd and turns out it worked almost perfectly 

1 hour ago, thomasbw said:

In 2018 I suggested to the City that we could fix the #1 cause of streetcar blockages for $0.00. Only took six years but they made the change March 3rd and turns out it worked almost perfectly 

Maybe I’m just missing something in that graphic, but what was the change?

3 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Maybe I’m just missing something in that graphic, but what was the change?

 

Moved Metro Bus Station G up to where the streetcar moves out of the right lane.

Edited March 26, 20241 yr by 10albersa

The bar graph in the middle is the main thing I gathered, from 15 delays stuck behind a bus, to 13 delays behind a bus, to zero delays behind a bus (but still one delay from a car) 

3 hours ago, thomasbw said:

In 2018 I suggested to the City that we could fix the #1 cause of streetcar blockages for $0.00. Only took six years but they made the change March 3rd and turns out it worked almost perfectly 

 

This is amazing to see! Great work.

12 hours ago, 10albersa said:

 

Moved Metro Bus Station G up to where the streetcar moves out of the right lane.

 

12 hours ago, ucgrady said:

The bar graph in the middle is the main thing I gathered, from 15 delays stuck behind a bus, to 13 delays behind a bus, to zero delays behind a bus (but still one delay from a car) 

Correct and Correct 

When are we expecting to see more signal priority implemented?

The 2024 Opening Day Parade drew a gigantic crowd along Race St. in Over-the-Rhine.  One entry was a group of kids on high unicycles.  I did not see any problems, but I have to imagine that the streetcar tracks posed a hazard and I hope that nobody fell. 

On 3/21/2024 at 7:28 PM, thomasbw said:

TANK and Metro have had similar ridership trajectories since 2002

 

A better way to show this relationship would be to index them both to their individual 2002 ridership and show that as 100%. Then you don't have to have a dual axis, which is kind of confusing. 

7 hours ago, Lazarus said:

The 2024 Opening Day Parade drew a gigantic crowd along Race St. in Over-the-Rhine.  One entry was a group of kids on high unicycles.  I did not see any problems, but I have to imagine that the streetcar tracks posed a hazard and I hope that nobody fell. 

They've been in the parade for years and I've never heard of any issues. 

6 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

A better way to show this relationship would be to index them both to their individual 2002 ridership and show that as 100%. Then you don't have to have a dual axis, which is kind of confusing. 

23 hours ago, taestell said:

When are we expecting to see more signal priority implemented?

We're not. DOTE doesn't believe it will make a difference and none of the politicians are willing to force the issue.

EDIT: Is a community council willing to make it an issue??? I doubt it but I'm not aware of either of them trying it.

Edited March 29, 20241 yr by Dev

56 minutes ago, Dev said:

We're not. DOTE doesn't believe it will make a difference and none of the politicians are willing to force the issue.

EDIT: Is a community council willing to make it an issue??? I doubt it but I'm not aware of either of them trying it.

Will be interesting what they say about BRT. If DOTE isn't going to do signal priority and there's likely going to be little to no enforcement of the BAT lanes, we might be building a $300m Metro Plus system with some really nice center running bus lanes on Jefferson. 

Just now, thomasbw said:

Will be interesting what they say about BRT. If DOTE isn't going to do signal priority and there's likely going to be little to no enforcement of the BAT lanes, we might be building a $300m Metro Plus system with some really nice center running bus lanes on Jefferson. 

SORTA is doing all of the engineering for the BRT so DOTE isn't going to care.

12 minutes ago, thomasbw said:

Will be interesting what they say about BRT. If DOTE isn't going to do signal priority and there's likely going to be little to no enforcement of the BAT lanes, we might be building a $300m Metro Plus system with some really nice center running bus lanes on Jefferson. 

 

This is a very real concern. Purpose-built transit only lanes with necessary infrastructure and design are necessary for a successful BRT through a dense urban setting. Signal priority is a no-brainer. These are best practices.

We surely won't spend 1/3rd of a billion dollars on a system that is Rapid In Name Only...right?

Edited March 29, 20241 yr by Miami-Erie

I rode both the streetcar and buses for Opening Day. One thing the city needs to do is get another streetcar vehicle and run a double-length streetcar or two during big events. Transit only lanes are a necessity but I took the 17 from UC to Downtown and I don't see how you get a transit-only lane on Vine though because it's such a narrow street.

 

CPD needs to also needs to make sure people aren't walking on the streetcar tracks near GABP. Heck, there were a lot of pedestrians on the tracks downtown as well. I will say that nothing makes me hate the people who killed the subway and those who voted against MetroMoves more than going downtown for a big event. God help us if we have a Reds playoff game and FCC Playoff game on the same night.

The stations aren't long enough to use a double streetcar. It wouldn't work

1 hour ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

I rode both the streetcar and buses for Opening Day. One thing the city needs to do is get another streetcar vehicle and run a double-length streetcar or two during big events. Transit only lanes are a necessity but I took the 17 from UC to Downtown and I don't see how you get a transit-only lane on Vine though because it's such a narrow street.

 

CPD needs to also needs to make sure people aren't walking on the streetcar tracks near GABP. Heck, there were a lot of pedestrians on the tracks downtown as well. I will say that nothing makes me hate the people who killed the subway and those who voted against MetroMoves more than going downtown for a big event. God help us if we have a Reds playoff game and FCC Playoff game on the same night.

 

 

I've never seen the streetcars so full as they were yesterday. People were pushed up against the windows and doors.

Cincinnati has hosted multiple iterations of Blink which has far larger crowds than even combination Reds/FCC or Bengals/FCC game days. The bigger issue is making sure that the tracks remain open so the streetcars can actually move. Cincinnati PD did a fairly good job of that in 2022 for Blink.