^You don't need to hope...this WILL get built, and I predict sooner rather than later.

 

True, but were waiting on phase I of the banks right?  the two get built together?  maybe i'm wrong, I hope it starts soon, but I have a feeling it could be delayed again and again

I hope the sections of rail thru OTR get the black top removed and expose the pavers underneath, like Elm st in front of Music Hall.

^Man, you really hate bicyclists, don't you ?

I think the uncovering of the center-street rails and cobblestones in front of Music Hall has been damaging to the case for a modern streetcar in Downtown and OTR. People have actually asked me if that's what we're trying to do and said if it is, they want no part of it.

^You don't need to hope...this WILL get built, and I predict sooner rather than later.

 

True, but were waiting on phase I of the banks right?  the two get built together?  maybe i'm wrong, I hope it starts soon, but I have a feeling it could be delayed again and again

 

The two are separate projects...with separate time tables.  The streetcar system can be constructed with or without The Banks moving forward.  With that said, it would be an added bonus if they were able to seamlessly build into The Banks development when they are building it, but it is not a necessity.

 

I also look at this as a point of motivation for The Banks Working Group.  The streetcar system offers a GREAT amenity to that development that can not be overlooked.  I think they will try to do everything in their power to make sure that they two proceed together.  But like I said, if not...no big deal.  90% of the streetcar system lies outside of The Banks.  Current residents can/should not be forgotten for the future ones.

I hope the sections of rail thru OTR get the black top removed and expose the pavers underneath, like Elm st in front of Music Hall.

 

As sexy as those streets might be, don't expect this to happen any time soon.  I'm sure the maintenance is a biotch on those stretches, and a headache the city just probably does not want/need right now.  I wouldn't be surprised if the cobblestone in front of Music Hall is removed when they install the streetcar route.

By the way, just so everyone knows, there's an effort underway by others to move the alignment through OTR to Vine and Race instead of Elm and Race.

>I'm sure the maintenance is a biotch on those stretches,

 

The primary drawback of brick or cobble streets is that they slow down emergency vehicles, a very serious consideration.  So I think it's a bad idea for Race, Vine, Walnut, and Main but shouldn't be an issue at all for the many east/west streets.  I lived in Athens for three years which retains its original brick streets in many places (including the main street) and there doesn't seem to be much of a maintenance issue there.  In fact there is no mortar between the bricks there and they are easily picked up by crews to work on utilities.  They are simply laid back down in place at the end of the day and unlike blacktop there's no sign anything happened there.  The downside to that is that many alums take bricks with them (they say "Athens Block" or "Nelsonville Block" on them and many use them as bookends and door stops) when they leave and so the city is constantly having to replace bricks.  The city has in fact resorted to collecting bricks from streets that have been paved over when they are resurfaced.  They closed a narrow brick street back in 2002 and are planning to save all of the bricks for future replacements.  There is also the problem of people picking up the bricks and throwing them in riot situations, something Athens is no stranger to.         

 

In situations where the streets haven't been maintained, brick streets and sidewalks start taking on a lumpy shape that causes puddles to form which turn into ice patches in the winter.  Again that's simply an issue of every 10 or 20 years picking up the bricks and regrading the dirt underneath.     

 

>Man, you really hate bicyclists, don't you?

 

I suppose they're tough on a road bike but I've never had any trouble on a mountain bike.  People are just making silly excuses when they complain about the cobble stones and tracks.  Unless you're riding a bike with extremely narrow tires, there no way the streetcar tracks are an issue.   

 

 

 

I don't buy the emergency vehicle bike excuse. I ride my my 2 tiny 10 in wheels at 30 mph on elm past music hall with no problem.  Also for those of you who have been to athens there is even a yearly roadrace thru the brick surface hilly streets of downtown called the  Ohio University Road Race and Criterium.

By the way, just so everyone knows, there's an effort underway by others to move the alignment through OTR to Vine and Race instead of Elm and Race.

 

I can't say that I am surprised, the battle over where the lines are drawn has significant financial impact so I guess it is too be expected.  The biggest obstacle is Vine being a 2 way street passed Central Pkwy, where as the planned route keeps everything in sync via the one way routes.  Also moving this route east would move it farther from Music Hall and Washington Park.  I can't see the Music Hall power brokers agreeing to this not that any of them will be traveling on a streetcar anytime soon.

 

So other than Vine and Elm being more in the center of the city, I cannot see this as being a better alternative.

Yeah, one of the primary goals is to maximize the return on investment here.  Vine Street already is seeing investment and is picking up steam, this will be helped out by the streetcar line that runs down Elm and then across Central Parkway.  Race Street needs tons of attention, as does Elm...lines running along these routes present the biggest return on investment potential.

 

Also as you were stating about Vine being a two way street...in order for a streetcar to work along Vine I think they would have to return it to a one way street.  That costs extra money, time, and headache.  The path of least resistance seems like the better option in this scenario.

I've lately been thinking that Uptown has a lot more to do with Uptown than Uptown has to do with Downtown.

 

So, if you had the money in your pocket to build two route-miles (four track-miles) of Uptown Streetcar, would you:

 

(a) build an Uptown-centric streetcar line connecting, say, Ludlow, Clifton Heights, Corryvile and Peoples Corner with faster-running light rail running from Downtown to Xavier on Gilbert; or

 

(b) build an Uptown-Downtown streetcar?

 

Food for thought.

 

I like the idea of a Downtown-Uptown line, but the line should extend to Ludlow. However, I didn't really answer the question, because this would easily be more than 4 miles. ;)

I've lately been thinking that Uptown has a lot more to do with Uptown than Uptown has to do with Downtown.

 

So, if you had the money in your pocket to build two route-miles (four track-miles) of Uptown Streetcar, would you:

 

(a) build an Uptown-centric streetcar line connecting, say, Ludlow, Clifton Heights, Corryvile and Peoples Corner with faster-running light rail running from Downtown to Xavier on Gilbert; or

 

(b) build an Uptown-Downtown streetcar?

 

Food for thought.

 

 

I don't think you can make the connection in proposal A with 4 track miles.  My estimates put it at 5.2 track miles.

 

If you go from vine and mcmicken up vine jefferson all the way to the medical campus and then shoot a spur down to ludlow it is 2.3 miles, so 4.6 track miles.

 

The zoo is only about another third of a mile up vine, throw a spur that was as well. 

 

I would say uptown/downtown, maybe the reason they don't have anything in common is because they aren't connected.

 

Streetcars=economic development

that would be a great light rail line

I've lately been thinking that Uptown has a lot more to do with Uptown than Uptown has to do with Downtown.

 

So, if you had the money in your pocket to build two route-miles (four track-miles) of Uptown Streetcar, would you:

 

(a) build an Uptown-centric streetcar line connecting, say, Ludlow, Clifton Heights, Corryvile and Peoples Corner with faster-running light rail running from Downtown to Xavier on Gilbert; or

 

(b) build an Uptown-Downtown streetcar?

 

Food for thought.

 

 

It's PEEBLES Corner lol. Not many people know that though. I think I'd still prefer seeing uptown and downtown connected. I feel it would promote OTR more.

 

  At one time I dreamed of a downtown rail hub, and an uptown bus hub.

 

  So, I read that the typical transit system of any kind breaks down by ridership like this:

 

  60% home to work

  30% home to shopping

  10% everything else.

 

  Therfore, if you have a residential area, a shopping area, and an employment area on the same line, you should be able to serve a lot of trips.

 

    On the contrary, connecting two entertainment destinations, two employment centers, or two residential neighborhoods won't get you many rides.

 

    How many people live uptown and work downtown, or vice versa?

Well Uptown and Downtown are essentially the 'center city' for Cincinnati, and it should be important to have good interconnectivity between the two areas.  They are not that far apart, but are very separated from one another because of the hill.  No one wants to walk that distance, and it's kind of silly to drive that short of a distance and pay to park.

 

It would be key to connect the 51,000+ residents and nearly 50,000 workers to downtown...the opposite is also true for the downtown demographic being connected to uptown.  Personally my dream is that this will eventually lead to a large interconnected streetcar system that serves the entire center city and nearby neighborhoods.  You know Uptown, Downtown, Nky, Mt. Adams, East End, Columbia Tusculum, West End, Lower Price Hill, Northside, etc...

I don't think you can get to northside as part of the system you are talking about, 3.2 miles of track from gaslight, on a grade, in a completley built out area.

Why not go all the way down Ludlow...is that grade too much?

Ludlow or Central Parkway - you could connect to Cinti Stae. Maybe a better line to connect the West End to the college and then on to Northside ?

The pictures I have seen of the old streetcars crossing the Ludlow Viaduct usually show a pretty flat viaduct, tho.

It would be nice to have a restored Western Hills Viaduct with Streetcars. I talked with a city engineer and he said it would be at least 10 years before the viaduct would ever get a makeover. The Viaduct was specifically built for streetcars and it could do wonders for Fairmount and queen city area.

^No actually I heard the viaduct is about to be cued up for demolition and replacement around 2030.  Perhaps a new viaduct could be built for cars and either the lower or upper deck of the old one taken over by light rail heading out of the subway. 

I think you have start with a basin system. I'm okay with Vine and Elm as it expands the catch basin some.

 

It then gives a couple options for expansion depending on the overall transit situation. You could send one out McMicken and help push redevelopment along Mohawk onto the lower parts of University and Clifton Heights, perhaps with a new incline at Fairview or urban escalators like Italy has built for some of its mountainous towns like Arezzo.

If it goes gangbusters and the systems looks poised for massive expansion, you could send them underground into the subway system for an express out Cincinnati State with a spur over to Northside and another up to Gaslight that then either heads toward downtown or around the Uptown area. Ludlow and Clifton are quite oversized for part of their length it could fit something in if the grade situation can be dealt with (cable cars anyone).

 

I really think an Uptown system and a downtown system would be a good idea with faster connector. I think one long system would be less useful than a couple systems that have a commuter style connection.

 

Ludlow or Central Parkway - you could connect to Cinti Stae. Maybe a better line to connect the West End to the college and then on to Northside ?

The pictures I have seen of the old streetcars crossing the Ludlow Viaduct usually show a pretty flat viaduct, tho.

 

Why not do two different streetcar systems. One for downtown and one for the University area and connect them with an aerial tram, like they have in Portland. Cincinnati is probably the only midwest city with the topography for such a system. (There are pics of it in Mr. Anderson's Portland Photos) It would make the connection easy and be a unique tourist draw at the same time.

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=13146.0

Ludlow or Central Parkway - you could connect to Cinti Stae. Maybe a better line to connect the West End to the college and then on to Northside ?

The pictures I have seen of the old streetcars crossing the Ludlow Viaduct usually show a pretty flat viaduct, tho.

 

Why not do two different streetcar systems. One for downtown and one for the University area and connect them with an aerial tram, like they have in Portland. Cincinnati is probably the only midwest city with the topography for such a system. (There are pics of it in Mr. Anderson's Portland Photos) It would make the connection easy and be a unique tourist draw at the same time.

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=13146.0

 

Great idea - like I said the current south terminus of the portland streetcar stops at the base of the aerial tram which carries about 25-30 people up to the hospital complex at the top of the hill (not unlike cincy).  The portland aerial tram was packed with tourist too.  Something like this could easliy link downtown/uptown.

Ludlow or Central Parkway - you could connect to Cinti Stae. Maybe a better line to connect the West End to the college and then on to Northside ?

The pictures I have seen of the old streetcars crossing the Ludlow Viaduct usually show a pretty flat viaduct, tho.

 

Why not do two different streetcar systems. One for downtown and one for the University area and connect them with an aerial tram, like they have in Portland. Cincinnati is probably the only midwest city with the topography for such a system. (There are pics of it in Mr. Anderson's Portland Photos) It would make the connection easy and be a unique tourist draw at the same time.

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=13146.0

 

Great idea - like I said the current south terminus of the portland streetcar stops at the base of the aerial tram which carries about 25-30 people up to the hospital complex at the top of the hill (not unlike cincy).  The portland aerial tram was packed with tourist too.  Something like this could easliy link downtown/uptown.

 

A fully loaded streetcar carries around 120-130, so a tram only carryin 25-30 might be a problem.

 

Now a tram from downtown to Mt. Adams, that would be something.

 

add a bicycle lift on sycamore and you have yourself a nice multimodal tranist system.

Streetcar funding under research

THE ENQUIRER

 

Cincinnati City Council could learn in late September how the city might pay for a streetcar line from downtown through Over-the-Rhine and what should be done next to make it happen.

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070627/NEWS01/306270002/1056/COL02

A proposal unveiled in May called for the initial 3.9-mile line to go from downtown up Main Street to McMicken Avenue and back down Walnut Street

That's a crappy route! The Elm/McMicken/ Race  should be the only one mentioned,  Enquirer  sucks. :roll:

It is the same route, if it only went main walnut it wouldn't be 3.9 miles

Probably an intern writing it who has no idea where to find Main, Mcmicken, Elm, or Race.          F-ing Enquirer!

Ludlow or Central Parkway - you could connect to Cinti Stae. Maybe a better line to connect the West End to the college and then on to Northside ?

The pictures I have seen of the old streetcars crossing the Ludlow Viaduct usually show a pretty flat viaduct, tho.

 

Why not do two different streetcar systems. One for downtown and one for the University area and connect them with an aerial tram, like they have in Portland. Cincinnati is probably the only midwest city with the topography for such a system. (There are pics of it in Mr. Anderson's Portland Photos) It would make the connection easy and be a unique tourist draw at the same time.

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=13146.0

 

Great idea - like I said the current south terminus of the portland streetcar stops at the base of the aerial tram which carries about 25-30 people up to the hospital complex at the top of the hill (not unlike cincy).  The portland aerial tram was packed with tourist too.  Something like this could easliy link downtown/uptown.

 

A fully loaded streetcar carries around 120-130, so a tram only carryin 25-30 might be a problem.

 

Now a tram from downtown to Mt. Adams, that would be something.

 

add a bicycle lift on sycamore and you have yourself a nice multimodal tranist system.

 

Actually each car on the portland tram carries 79 people and there are trams out there that can carry even more. The Portland trams are not that large. So you could easily handle the load from streetcars. ALso, the Portland tram only cost around 65 to 70 million. Not a bad price to connect both streetcar systems.

do you know the cost per mile of the tram, and the head time (wait between cars?)

do you know the cost per mile of the tram, and the head time (wait between cars?)

 

Tram Stats:

 

Time from top to bottom - 3 minutes

Trips per day - 1,500

Horizontal distance - 3,300 ft (about 3/4 of mile)

Verticle climb - 500 ft

Total finished cost - $57 million

 

It would be much cheaper of a connection than trying to tie the two systems with some type of rail.

 

The tram would easily keep up with streetcar movement. I would say the verticle climb in Cincy would be around 400 ft (give or take a little). This really can work. The capacity is there, and the wait between each car would only be about 3 minutes. I could be wrong, but I don't think the streetcars would be arriving at the station any quicker than that and the price tag is not bad. On top of this, you have a very unique transit system that would get a lot of tourist into OTR and other parts of Cincy.

Two miles, $57 million, about 3.5 minutes of travel time between Portland's South Waterfront Neighborhood and the Oregon Health Science University, maybe five minutes between departures, $4.00 per round trip unless you have a streetcar pass -- then it's free.

Two miles, $57 million, about 3.5 minutes of travel time between Portland's South Waterfront Neighborhood and the Oregon Health Science University, maybe five minutes between departures, $4.00 per round trip unless you have a streetcar pass -- then it's free.

 

Actually the length of the system is only about 3/4 of mile.

http://www.portlandtram.org/

Elm: McMicken to W Clifton: McMillan .62 miles horizontal, 315 ft rise.

 

Vine up the hill .81 mi, 269 ft rise.

 

sycamore hill .44 mi, 250 ft rise.

Elm: McMicken to W Clifton: McMillan .62 miles horizontal, 315 ft rise.

 

Vine up the hill .81 mi, 269 ft rise.

 

sycamore hill .44 mi, 250 ft rise.

 

Thanks for the info. So the cost might actually be a little less, but probably not a lot with current prices. I would love to see this built along with the streetcars.

 

It would be great to see 3CDC step up and help fund this. These projects have just as much, if not more impact economically and socially on the community, than projects like fountain square.

From the plans you guys seem to be making, it sounds like a trip from the biz district to Northside would require 2 - 3 transfers from streetcars to trams to streetcars.

Why in hell would I do that instead of just hopping on one bus that takes me the whole way ?

You might as well discuss catapulting people from Mt Adams to Clifton.

From the plans you guys seem to be making, it sounds like a trip from the biz district to Northside would require 2 - 3 transfers from streetcars to trams to streetcars.

Why in hell would I do that instead of just hopping on one bus that takes me the whole way ?

You might as well discuss catapulting people from Mt Adams to Clifton.

 

I guess I don't consider 2 quick transfers as a big deal (did that when I lived in south Florida), since those transfers would get me from the Banks to the University. I would also say that these transfers are not the same as bus transfers. Many bus transfers have a gap of more than 1 or 2 minutes between when the bus drops you off and another bus picks you up. Also, these projects are also design to increase development, investment and tourism for the city, something a bus system general doesn't do.

busses and streetcars function differently.  the CBD to northside trip might be one better suited for a bus.  UC to Downtown a Streetcar or Tram, Clifton to Corryville, and uptown streetcar, fountain square to music hall a downtown streetcar. 

 

the streetcars aren't just going to mimic bus lines, they are going to be parts of a larger transportation system.

Are you thinking of having the buses stop less frequently where their service parallels the streetcars ?

I would highly encourage that. It would give people only one option for transport and force them to use the streetcar. Have transfers to bus available at a couple different stops. But eliminate the competition, and the streetcar will be successful.

But, by the same token, some people will need to take a streetcar to get to the bus stop.

One of the big reasons people don't use mass transit is because they find it confusing. I developing 99 manners of mass transit you are doing nothing more than making it more and more confusing.

While the different forms sound intriguing, I tend to think that transfers will have a negative effect on ridership. I do like the idea of the streetcar serving as the local and letting the bus system move more quickly from major point to major point especially as it warms people up to the light rail style of mass transit. I think a tram only works if could directly connect to major usage points rather than end of one system and the start of another. Unfortunately there aren't any of these clear points in the system, we have been discussing. Make the system too unwieldy and it will get a bad name quickly. I know that the overall goal is to expand the area of urban investment but speed, convenience, and the ability to go between places that people want to be is just as important. Maybe Uptown waits and the direct connection stays within the Mill Creek Valley and goes to Northside instead. In terms of underused roadway, make a nonstop express up Spring Grove was a couple stops in Camp Washington and Northside that connects up the downtown trolley. Then push for a multi-modal component - perhaps a tram that follows MLK up to UC and the uptown system.

 

Anyway, just dreaming a bit.

A couple of things that are top-of-mind with respect to the Portland Aerial Tram:

 

- it connects Oregon's largest employer -- the Oregon Health Sciences University -- with  Portland's seldom-flooded riverfront project that is probably four times as large as The Banks.

 

- it was estimated to cost maybe $15 million and ended up costing $57 million.

 

- huge crowds seem to the riding the Portland Aerial Tram.

 

- as a result, the critics have been silenced. Never seen anything like it.

 

- the only application in Downtown Cincinnati is maybe from the foot of Main to Downtown Kentucky somewhere. Maybe.

 

- from Downtown to mid-valley somewhere, maybe Wyoming and East Hyde Park, fast trains around the Uptown hill with streetcars connecting Uptown to the central and eastern corridors might be the way to go. I think about this all the time.

I have to second the comments about the transfers...the more of an obstacle it becomes, the less attractive it then becomes as well.  Keep it simple with no, or very few, transfers at all.

^ ^ Most streetcars lose money, however. There is a plus side to that -- much development occurs along planned or existing streetcar lines. In one Florida city, although the streetcar system loses money as a whole, over $450 million (IIRC) of projects were as a result of the line.

 

Let me dig up the article tomorrow, it was in the WSJ just last week.

The WSJ article was posted at the Columbus streetcars thread....

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=7751.msg193038#msg193038

^ ^ Most streetcars lose money, however. There is a plus side to that -- much development occurs along planned or existing streetcar lines. In one Florida city, although the streetcar system loses money as a whole, over $450 million (IIRC) of projects were as a result of the line.

 

Let me dig up the article tomorrow, it was in the WSJ just last week.

 

all toll free highways lose money too