October 9, 200717 yr Author In terms of population density, cincinnati and portland are about dead even at 4174 and 4199 persons a square mile. Both cities also have comperable acrages of parkland per square mile.
October 9, 200717 yr Cheryl you are right. A streetcar system will not solve all of downtown's challenges, nor have I ever seen any statements in the streetcar presentation's that state that. But, a mass transit system (streetcars) is clearly one of the major pieces of a puzzle that will allow downtown Cincinnati and its surroundings to achieve its goals. If a community never builds any 'pieces of the puzzle' then how will it every see the final picture. The streetcar system and the Banks are two big pieces of that picture. There comes a point when a community must stop talking about something and take the 'risk' and build it. The time has come for both the Banks and the streetcar system to be built. I truely believe that failure on either one of these two projects will have significant negative impacts on downtown and Cincy for several years to come.
October 9, 200717 yr Cincinnati has tons of people, tons of companies. It's attitude that's the problem. Absolutely!
October 9, 200717 yr Cheryl, I really don't think it's fair to compare Cincinnati 2007 to Portland 2007. Because, assuming that advocates of the streetcar are correct, Portland's numbers benefit from 10 years (including construction) of streetcar-initiated development. You really need to compare Cincinnati 2007 to Portland in the mid-90s (before construction began) and then compare both of those to Portland 2007 and use that to extrapolate what will happen here. Regarding Portland's streetcar operating at a deficit, I'm not sure that it matters. First, I have no numbers to back up whether it does or does not make money. They don't even charge a fare for most of the line, so it's probably a safe assumption to make. But what you aren't taking into account is that the money that the city loses on the streetcar, it more than makes up for in revitalized areas, assuming again that the streetcar advocates are correct. This includes but is not limited to: money from property taxes (as property increases in value due to increased demand), sales taxes from new shops, restaurants, bars, etc, and payroll taxes from the jobs created in the service area. This completely ignores the fact that a city-owned transit system ISN'T A BUSINESS. It's foolish to even expect it to make money; it's a public service for residents, providing transportation and deterring crime by increasing public presence in previously "bombed out" parts of the city. So if it makes enough to almost break even, that's good enough. If it were some sort of cash cow, with money to be made directly from it's operations, we'd already have the P&G Light Rail System or Great American Streetcar. I also don't agree that the removal of an expressway ramp is responsible for the Pearl District's revitalization. If that were the sole reason, wouldn't the same thing have taken place in Covington's Peasleburg neighborhood in the 1990s? It's got some great, affordable, old buildings that are loaded with architectural character and historic value, but it's not exactly bustling these days. Beyond all these things, transit in Cincinnati is a joke right now. I agree, we need a light rail system. I'd start building it tomorrow if possible. But we tried for that 5 years ago and the surrounding suburbs voted it down, so it's not happening any time soon. We need to aim for attainable goals. Even without a light rail system, Cincinnati needs an efficient, easy to use transit system for it's downtown at the very least. Something that is simple for newcomers, tourists, convention-goers, etc to use without effort, but still robust enough for residents to ride in lieu of driving. The buses just aren't cutting it by themselves. As for your concerns about traffic, I definitely can't speak as an expert on that. Sadly, I work in the suburbs, not downtown, so I'm rarely there at rush hour. But I've always had the impression that the traffic is mainly east-west, leading to the expressway ramps. If that's so, the north-south running streetcar wouldn't sit in too much of that. Again, I have very little experience in that area, it's just a thought. But the whole idea is to encourage a higher percentage of workers to actually live downtown. If you live AND work downtown, you may not even use the streetcar to get to the office, yet you're not driving and contributing to the traffic/parking problems either. But depending on where you live, you might use it to go to Music Hall or Great American Ballpark or to the grocery store. It takes a large, foreboding area and makes it more attractive and accessible. Cheryl you are right. A streetcar system will not solve all of downtown's challenges, nor have I ever seen any statements in the streetcar presentation's that state that. But, a mass transit system (streetcars) is clearly one of the major pieces of a puzzle that will allow downtown Cincinnati and its surroundings to achieve its goals. If a community never builds any 'pieces of the puzzle' then how will it every see the final picture. The streetcar system and the Banks are two big pieces of that picture. There comes a point when a community must stop talking about something and take the 'risk' and build it. The time has come for both the Banks and the streetcar system to be built. I truely believe that failure on either one of these two projects will have significant negative impacts on downtown and Cincy for several years to come. Cincinnati has tons of people, tons of companies. It's attitude that's the problem. I couldn't agree more, with both of you.
October 9, 200717 yr I have only a few minutes to post in reply to some of the questions: Portland, in an attempt to contain sprawl and industry, adopted a set of land-use planning laws in 1973 that set an urban growth boundary, promoted utilization of urban land wisely, and protected it's natural resources. These laws encompassed three levels of planning: State, Region, and City. In 1978 the MAX Light Rail line plan was initiated. Since this concept began $6 Billion in development has grown along its lines. In 1980, an elevated highway ramp was demolished within the Warehouse/Light Industry sector of the city, opening up the area for future development. (Now known as the Pearl District) In the 1990's Portland and its Suburbs became more economically integrated. Metropolitan Housing Rules insured low income housing throughout the region giving a choice of residence location to minority household earners throughout Portland. In 1991, talks began about the Streetcar system being able to move those from Max throughout the city proper. 2001, Streetcar system opened. CBD: City: Population Portland Cincinnati Portland Cincinnati 1990 9,528 3,838 1997 503,760 340,311 2000 12,902 3,189 2000 529,121 331,285 2006 539,950 302,616 Sorry, more later.
October 9, 200717 yr Author according to the enquirer, there are about 4500 people downtown, the population of Over the Rhine is generally estimated at about 7000 (?) throw in a few people from the west end, southern cuf, and mt. auburn that are within walking distance from the streetcar and we have a comperable population
October 9, 200717 yr Author According to the Portland buisness alliance there are 82,761 employees in the 405/5 loop. Does anyone know the cincinnati CBD employment numbers, I found an enquirer article that said 90,000 in 2001.
October 9, 200717 yr 2000: NYTimes article on the DT Cincinnati boom: In her 1999 study, ''Downtown Living: A Deeper Look,'' she reported that Cincinnati had one of the more robust markets for downtown housing in the nation. She estimated that 4,810 people lived downtown in 1999, up from 3,838 in 1990. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9506E1DD1E3AF933A05754C0A9669C8B63 Not counting OTR. Cheryl, you are dodging way too many questions and points from other posters in this thread. I wish you had more time to respond!
October 9, 200717 yr Cheryl, please do not forget to post source links. They are pretty much a must to have when talking about numbers. Anyone can make up a number.
October 9, 200717 yr Author you don't need xxx number of people to have a successful streetcar line, nor do you need to be on the west coast
October 9, 200717 yr according to the enquirer, there are about 4500 people downtown, the population of Over the Rhine is generally estimated at about 7000 (?) throw in a few people from the west end, southern cuf, and mt. auburn that are within walking distance from the streetcar and we have a comperable population Don't forget about those of us living in the NKY river cities that will hopefully be included in a Phase 2 or 3. Not sure what the population is off hand or which city(ies) will be included, but it's a lot and we're about 1/2 a mile from downtown. Edit: The NKY river cities' census 2000 population, listed (coincidentally) in order of both size and proximity to CBD: Covington 43,370 Newport 17,048 Bellevue 6,480 Dayton 5,966 Ludlow 4,409 That's ~77,000 people as of 2000. Granted, Ludlow & Dayton may prove too far away to link up, and both Covington & Newport sprawl a lot, but if even a fraction of that population can be reached, it's a lot of ridership.
October 9, 200717 yr I read in Cheryl's post a concern about connecting downtown with areas up on the hills using streetcars because streetcars don't have the ability to go up the hills. Doesn't San Fransisco have a streetcar system built largely on hills?
October 10, 200717 yr Doesn't San Fransisco have a streetcar system built largely on hills? Isn't it a cable car?
October 10, 200717 yr Author ^^a downtown/uptown streetcar with a spur to peebles corner or mlk/madison would tie into that line quite nicely
October 10, 200717 yr San Francisco has Cable Cars. Cable Cars predate electric streetcars by a decade or two. Cable Cars are propelled by moving wire ropes or cables laid in a conduit under the street. The cables somewhat resemble ski lift cables. The technology was simple in concept but very complicated in practise, with pulleys under the street, mechanisms for keeping the cables tight, etc. Most of the energy was used to move the cable, so this technology was not energy efficient. It did have the advantage of being able to climb steep hills where electric streetcars could not. Cincinnati had 3 cable car lines in addition to 5 inclines. The train at the Cincinnati airport is actually pulled by cables. Jake - the line next to Rookwood Commons could probably be tunneled under the intersection. The Elsinore Crossing might have to remain at grade, in order to use the existing bridge, but I don't think it would be too much of a problem. Your Broadway Commons track lines up well with the subway, too.
October 10, 200717 yr Let me just say I wasn't prepared for the bombardment of questions and demands about my not being sold on this proposal because I thought, and still do, that we need to put some other things in place first for the "little engine that could" to chug into place within the Cincinnati landscape – The Banks would be a great start. I apologize for my lack of time to get to all the questions earlier, had I known this was to become a full time commitment my timing would have been better, this grilling has been worse than the work I had to do for my Masters! The grade specs I mentioned before came directly from the streetcar manufacturer, Vine street grade number came from a presentation given to the Downtown Residents Council, and the population figures I mentioned earlier, and below again, come directly from the U.S. Census, Downtown Cincinnati, Inc., and Portland Development Commission, as well as the new ones below. My apologies that my tables are not copying well. Portland Cincinnati Population CBD 1990 9,528 3,838 2000 12,902 3,189 2006 20,000 7,784 Population City 1990 437,319 364,040 1997 503,760 340,311 2000 529,121 331,285 2006 539,950 302,610 Household Units 1990 198,308 169,012 City 2000 237,307 166,012 2006 251,348 166,591 Owner Occupied 1990 99,206 59,172 City 2000 124,767 57,715 2006 134,101 55,442 Renter Occupied 1990 88,062 95,170 City 2000 98,970 90,380 2006 100,830 75,617 Median Home Value 1990 $59,200 $61,900 City 2000 $154,900 $93,000 2006 $266,800 $123,800 Top Industries and Employees: Intel Corporation 15,000 Providence Health System 12,800 Fred Meyer, Inc. 10,744 Legacy Health System, 7,158 Louisiana-Pacific 7,100 Nike 7,000 Kaiser Permanente 6,725 Tektronix 4,359 Back to the Pearl District: The highway ramp (I-405) I mentioned earlier, which split the district in half, was relocated in the 1980’s and artists started filtering into the empty loft space that became available. Two major mixed-use housing projects are responsible for the area flourishing today and BOTH were completed before the streetcar system went in. In 1994, 34 acres were bought by Hoyt Street Properties, and in 2000, the Brewery Development Company bought five blocks. Portland has had forty years of planning to put all of this in place, and now have a 2040 Plan in place. As the wholesale, financial, and medical center for much of the state, both state and regional governments work in tandem with Portland City government. Comprehensive plans for suburban communities have to comply with the Urban Boundary Land Use Laws. Also, most of the growth for Portland City was caused by annexation of surrounding communities according to Portland Metro and the Development Commission. Lastly, for lack of a more PC way of stating this, the Metropolitan Housing Rules moved undesirable population out of the downtown by giving them new housing choices throughout the suburbs allowing for a renewed sense of safety downtown, which in turn filled the sidewalks with people, which leads to the opening of the streetrcar system.
October 10, 200717 yr Links! Cheryl, you should definitely use source links! It's urban discussion board etiquette! For all we know the numbers you posted were imaginary ...
October 10, 200717 yr Links! Cheryl, you should definitely use source links! It's urban discussion board etiquette! For all we know the numbers you posted were imaginary ... Come on, don't you think that's a bit excessive? I mean, she tells you they are from the Census, DCI, and PDC. Look them up.
October 10, 200717 yr Two important meetings for rail supporters ... First and foremost, the plan to build the Cincinnati Streetcar will be in front of Cincinnati City Council's Economic Development Committee next Tuesday, October 16th at 1:00p in City Council Chambers on the Third Floor of City Hall, 801 Plum Street. Lots of cheap parking is available in the old Lazarus garage southeast of City Hall. This is a very important hearing, the first step in the approval process. Please try to attend and, if you wish, fill-out a Speaker's Card sign up to make comments. The next evening, Wednesday, October 17th at 7:00p, Denver Mayor John Hickenlooper, one of the most respected political figures in the West, shares firsthand lessons from his success in governing the Mile High City. Since taking office, Mayor Hickenlooper, among his many other accomplishments, has passed the largest regional transit initiative in the U.S. In 2005, Mayor Hickenlooper was named one of the top five “big-city” mayors in America by Time Magazine. The cost is $5.00 at the door. To reserve your place, call 513-621-0717 or send an email t: [email protected]. The Mercantile Library is one of the oldest private libraries in the United States. An amazing number of gifted writers, artists and other speakers have appeared there over the years. It's at 414 Walnut Street, and there's cheap parking in the Fountain Square Garage. Don't miss this!
October 10, 200717 yr The bottom line is that the momentum Downtown and in OTR is undenyable. It is chugging along at a very healthy pace...and a spark of some sort could really get this whole thing kicked into another gear. That spark could come from the streetcar. While The Banks is important, it is not something that will provide a spark for more investment in OTR or in other parts of Downtown. The streetcar would actually help to spark The Banks.
October 10, 200717 yr ^ Agreed. The beauty of the streetcar is that it isn't a localized project like The Banks or redevelopment in OTR, as important as both of those are. It will enhance the entire downtown experience, and add fuel to the fire for several current and future projects, some of which are long overdue.
October 10, 200717 yr One of my neighbors sent this out to the Newport's East Row Historic District listserve this morning. While not directly related to the streetcar, I have the feeling it will get some heavy discussion at this lecture, due to who the speaker is and since Portland is the model that we are trying to mimic. The text of her email is below, though I have respectfully withheld her name, since she is not the one posting here: Cincinnati Preservation Association is pleased to invite you to our annual Fall Forum urbanism lecture, on Friday, October 19th at noon at the Hilton Cincinnati Netherland Plaza downtown. Our speaker will be Robert Liberty, Metro Councilor of Portland, Oregon, who will speak on what Greater Cincinnati can learn from Portland's successful urban revitalization. Tickets for the luncheon and lecture are $40.00. Contact CPA at 513-721-4506 or email [email protected]. We hope to see you there! Mr. Liberty is an attorney with 25 years experience in land use planning. He is a strong advocate of regionalism, environmental protection and public transportation. He served as a staff attorney and Executive Director for 1000 Friends of Oregon, the nation's oldest statewide Smart Growth advocacy organization. Mr. Liberty holds degrees from the University of Oregon, Oxford University and Harvard Law School and was a Loeb Fellow at the Harvard Design School during the 2002-03 year.
October 10, 200717 yr Come on, don't you think that's a bit excessive? Not at all. If someone can take the time to draw out an outline of population totals, they can paste a URL, you don't think so?
October 10, 200717 yr Your wording was quite harsh, IMO, essentially calling them a liar for what they posted. I've posted various statistics and facts without attributing a source (sometimes I forget). But I have yet to have one person call me out on it. People need to learn to trust each other.
October 10, 200717 yr I have been criticized on many occasions for not supporting my opinions with stats and/or sources (even though I say that they are opinions). Early on I also was criticized for not citing stats...I have since then learned to cite EVERYTHING that is even close to needing citation. It just gives you credibility on what you're saying. If you choose not to do this, then you are also choosing to have your statements questioned...especially if they are questionable to begin with.
October 11, 200717 yr I have better things to do with my time than sit around and make up facts, but hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I do not believe that I would own 750,000 square feet of commercial/warehouse space and have a Masters education in Community Planning if I did that. I am smart enough to know that if I am going to argue a point I better have done all my homework first. The only on-line link I can give you is www.census.gov, I am not sure how many of the reports and documents out of my two foot stack are actually on-line, forgive me or not, I am not going to go through them and look for you. Most of my docs came directly from Portland Metro, TriMet, and the Portland Planning Commission, not to mention the pages and pages of table print-outs from the Census Bureau. I believe that the Downtown Cincinnati, Inc. yearly city reports are on line though - I used 2006, I m sorry I am not sure what the web address is. I could also send you a copy of my entire report (cited and with complete references), for a fee. I will be out of town at the time of Tuesday's meeting, each of the members of the City Council Economic Development Committee will have one though. I said in the beginning that my biggest concern with the streetcar is making sure all angles are covered ahead of time before $102 million dollars is spent. The proposal information being presented to the public leaves out some very pertinent facts making it appear much different than what it is. I do not know of anyone that would buy a $102 million dollar house if they were knowledge-able enough to know that the foundation of it was not stable. Most would hope that an inspection would reveal it. Well, I just told you to be very careful about your purchase because it's going to require a lot more work than what the outside appearance looks like. It's totally your choice to believe it or not. Yes, Cincinnati is beginning to gain some momentum we haven't had in all the years I have lived here, which is good. I've only asked you to consider some other facts. I want to do everything in my power to make sure we do not have a $102 million dollar flop in our lap that we have to recover from. It seems that many people are still shaking their heads, or cringing, about Paul Brown Stadium, and come on, ten years and still no definite Banks plan - yeah, yeah I'm optimistic, give it a few more days. 3CDC has made quite a difference in some ways and not so much in others, a similar project in Pittsburg a few years ago remains mostly vacant still today (I have a few pages of references on this fact too), and so for me at least, the verdict is still out on this latest Cincinnati venture. I will be the first to admit that a streetcar would be a wonderful addition in the not so distant future, I simply want a good return on the investment and a "build it and they will come" (Field of Dreams, 1989) attitude won't get that.
October 11, 200717 yr Author just to put things in perspective, the cost of the streetcar is equal to three hours and twenty four minutes of the iraq war.
October 11, 200717 yr I said in the beginning that my biggest concern with the streetcar is making sure all angles are covered ahead of time before $102 million dollars is spent. The proposal information being presented to the public leaves out some very pertinent facts making it appear much different than what it is. I do not know of anyone that would buy a $102 million dollar house if they were knowledge-able enough to know that the foundation of it was not stable. Most would hope that an inspection would reveal it. Well, I just told you to be very careful about your purchase because it's going to require a lot more work than what the outside appearance looks like. It's totally your choice to believe it or not. Could you be a little more specific? There are a good number of people on here who have a VERY strong working knowledge of this effort...and I would be shocked if they weren't able to answer the questions you may have. What specifically isn't addressed in the feasibility study? What is it you want to know? And most importantly if there is something you have a concern with, what is your opinion on how that particular aspect could be improved? If you have a Masters in Community Planning then I trust that you have a pretty good working knowledge on this type of thing (depending upon your specialization). Please share your specific thoughts and suggestions.
October 11, 200717 yr Cheryl, Even if the consultants that the city hired are completely wrong on the 15.2 to 1 return on investment and we get a return equal to the worst performing streetcar (9.2 to 1 on Little Rock's historic streetcar http://portlandtransport.com/archives/2006/05/the_economic_de_1.html), would that still be a poor investment? I, for one, am confident in Cincinnati's economic ability more than Little Rock's, but regardless I would love a 9.2 to 1 return on any investment of mine (say nothing of 15.2 to 1).
October 11, 200717 yr BTW, I have said this before...and I'll say it again. If you have concerns about this particular proposal then fine. But lets try to be proactive and work to solve the specific issues we may or may not have...instead of simply throwing a wrench in the works. This particular proposal may not be perfect, but there has been a hell of a lot of thought and effort put towards this particular proposal. Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, lets work with what we've got and try to come up with something we can all be proud of in the end.
October 11, 200717 yr I do not believe that I would own 750,000 square feet of commercial/warehouse space and have a Masters education in Community Planning if I did that. Well aren't you just mr fancy pants!
October 11, 200717 yr Questions 1) The numbers regarding returns on investment in the Streetcar Proposal seem to be based on the specific econonmic dynamics of the City of Portland. While they look impressive what are the numbers based on the City of Cincinnati as it stands today? In other words, if we were to invest $1.2 million in this project right now, what is the bottom line return in this city as it stands today without any additional economic base. These numbers would indicate the worse case scenario and can we maintain a successful system if things do not change at all? 2) What is the target rider-ship for the Cincinnati Streetcar and where are we primarily transporting them to and from, and why? Does the Cincinnati Streetcar Proposal fill a need that is not currently being met and what are the indications of this? 3) What will be the motivation to get people out of other modes of transportation and onto the streetcar in the first place, given that Cincinnati currently does not have the rider-ship base that Portland had to begin with, or an established wealth of economic base, as well as safety and walk-ability issues still representing challenges? 4) What will make this mode of transportation more convenient than others currently available given the dynamics present today in downtown Cincinnati? 5) Is there a Plan B? Can we perhaps initiate a route that will address the above issues on a smaller scale first that could be a resounding success by transporting people to and from the places they are already going and then add other routes?
October 11, 200717 yr I don't have the time or inclination to answer those questions, but I think perhaps you've been misguided into thinking this effort is to transport all of Portland to Cincinnati. To a certain degree, I can see how this could happen, since it is too frequently the sole example offered by streetcar proponents. But there are others, and they also have a record of success that we would do well to emulate, Little Rock was mentioned as one above. I'm sure many of those have even less in common with Portland than does Cincinnati, if you wish to continue to view the issue solely in terms of how like Portland a place must be to consider streetcars. Yet they have shown an enviable return on investment as well.
October 11, 200717 yr Author from cincystreetcar.com Logistics of riding, how to board etc. Riding a streetcar is much easier than riding a bus. Because passengers can see the rails in the ground, they know where the streetcar is going. Unlike in bus, where riders line up to walk through a single door and put their money in a fare box, a streetcar passenger purchases their ticket at a kiosk at the stop before the train arrives. Fares have not yet been decided, but the study examined fares at 50 cents, $1 or free. When the streetcar pulls up to the stop, passengers board through one of six doors, allowing people to quickly step on or exit the streetcar. At a stop, dozens of people can move on an off the streetcar in under 30 seconds. Ridership, who rides the streetcar? Anyone can ride the streetcar. For the disabled, riding the streetcar is easier than riding a bus. The wide doors and no steps to go up make getting on or off the streetcar simple. People in wheelchairs need only to press a button on the outside of the streetcar to extend a small ramp to the curb that allows them to roll right on without any assistance from the driver. For children and senior citizens, the streetcar offers increased mobility and freedom. A mother with a child in a stroller can roll right onto the streetcar, never having to disturb the baby. Office workers downtown can have their lunch choices expanded. Having a streetcar nearby means you can get to any point on the line and back before the end of your lunch break. Or they could take the streetcar down to the Reds stadium for a midday game. People coming into the suburbs need only to park one time and use the streetcar to get to whatever downtown destinations they want to visit Going to the Reds game? Parking near the stadium is expensive, and if you have small children you don’t want to have a long walk. But with the streetcar, you could park farther away for much cheaper or even free at a meter on the street after 5pm. Then get on the streetcar and get off right in front of the stadium. People driving in from the suburbs can park downtown and use the streetcar to get around. Because streetcars are so open inside, a bicyclist can roll their bike right onto the train and not have to worry about riding in heavy traffic. Streetcars can supplement Downtown bus service. By allowing busses to make fewer stops downtown, traffic flow is improved. Local, downtown passengers on the busses can be diverted to the streetcar, giving the busses greater long haul capacity. If a light rail stop is built downtown, the streetcar can increase the number of people within walking distance of the stop and increase the number of destinations the rail passengers can reach. The result would be increased ridership on both systems. Streetcars can also be placed on rail tracks. The Oasis line, running from Downtown east along the Ohio to Lunken Field, could easily accommodate streetcars, connecting Downtown to Columbia Tusculum and the east side neighborhoods.
October 11, 200717 yr ^I'm not going to attempt to answer all those questions. Heck I don't even understand the first one, but I would like to address #2 and #4, which are essentially about me, the targeted user. We live 6 blocks from Findlay Market and shop there weekly. Despite this, we usually drive to the market, because we get A LOT of stuff. We have one of those granny carts and we also usually have kids strollers with us. Both are very difficult to get on and off the bus, and hard to lug many blocks. Parking at Findlay was extremely crowded this Saturday and most recent Saturdays, so much so that I am certain it is stopping some people from shopping there. We also live about 12 blocks from the riverfront. We like to go to the riverfront for the kids to play and ride bikes. Walking 12 blocks with kids takes a LONG time, and 6 year olds cannot be trusted to ride on city streets. Bikes, carts and strollers can all be easily rolled onto and off the modern streetcar. The fixed easy-to-understand route, regularity and smooth ride (all things the bus lacks) definitely will get me to give up my car and ride, and will make living here with kids much more bearable.
October 11, 200717 yr Does the Cincinnati Streetcar Proposal fill a need that is not currently being met and what are the indications of this? The first thing I think of Findlay Market. I love Findlay market, and the reason I don't walk there is that I usually buy so much that it would be difficult to carry everything back the 6+ blocks to my condo. I end up driving. If the street car was available, I would definitely take it up there. Many people downtown live even further away from Findlay Market and have also expressed the same thing. I've walked from my condo to the stadium and US Bank arena several times. There is no way I would drive down there just to get stuck in traffic and pay for parking. During inclement weather such as cold, heat emergencies, etc, it would help to have the streetcar go down there. There are many, many more examples I can think of, but these are the two at the top of my head.
October 11, 200717 yr The streetcar will fit into my Findlay Market shopping schedule as well. Although I am going to miss walking to Findlay and Ding-Dong-Ditching Michael R's Place :-D JK Michael, I have never done that. It is difficult to buy watermelons and other heavy produce and walk that kind of distance back to the house. I will also be able to eliminate 1 car from the equation which I can't wait to do!
October 12, 200717 yr On the Findlay Mkt train of thought, a streetcar could also lead to the construction of a new supermarket, perhaps on Central pkway. Sure potential supermarkets have shyed away in the past b/c of lack of people downtown and lack of parking/transportation options but the streetcar essentially solves all these issues as people will continue to move downtown and be more mobile. A streetcar would allow OTR residents and downtwon residents to get to a Central Pkway supermarket. This in turn improves quality of life in both areas and continues attract people moving in. You can't look at the need of a streetcar just based on what exists today and what it accomplishes today; you have to look at what it can/will add and what the new additions will lead to. The potential is unlimited and can dramatically transform the city. If the streetcar is in fact extended to UC eventually, you will have 30,000+ students with easy access to OTR and downtown. This will be a huge econmoc boom. It will create an inter-connectivity b/w neighborhoods that now seem isolated. Such isolation is one Cincy's biggest weaknesses, IMO.
October 12, 200717 yr 1) The numbers regarding returns on investment in the Streetcar Proposal seem to be based on the specific econonmic dynamics of the City of Portland. While they look impressive what are the numbers based on the City of Cincinnati as it stands today? In other words, if we were to invest $1.2 million in this project right now, what is the bottom line return in this city as it stands today without any additional economic base. These numbers would indicate the worse case scenario and can we maintain a successful system if things do not change at all? The Cincinnati numbers looked at multiple cities that have implemented streetcar systems (with varying results). Portland has had the most successful results of anyone thus far. But as you will see, when examining the numbers, the Cincinnati numbers aren't close to the numbers that Portland has seen. Essentially Cincinnati has closer economic and demographic numbers to Portland than a Kinosha, WI for example and therefore we can expect to see more similar results to what Portland has seen. This proposal is not projecting similar economic impacts, residential growth or even ridership numbers as what Portland has seen. All are lower for Cincinnati, but they are still VERY significant nonetheless. 2) What is the target rider-ship for the Cincinnati Streetcar and where are we primarily transporting them to and from, and why? Does the Cincinnati Streetcar Proposal fill a need that is not currently being met and what are the indications of this? There are 3 key components to the ridership, from my understanding. We have the business workers downtown, the residents in the near vicinity of the route, and finally you have tourists. In other cities they have built the lines with only 1 or 2 of these components...and have done it successfully. I think the tourism component is evident enough. If you are visiting you'll be able to easily navigate the center city and hit up some of the most popular attractions (Findlay Market, Music Hall, Aronoff Center, GABP, PBS, FS District, Main Street, etc). As a worker downtown lets say you're heading out to lunch and you work for Scripps on 3rd St. But you want to grab a bite to eat at B/G Diner at 9th & Main. You may not have enough time to walk there, eat, and then walk back...but with the streetcar this is a breeze. This is just one example, but hopefully you get the idea. Given the fact that there are tens of thousands of workers downtown, there is a ton of potential in this category. The residents will be able to have the largest impact...and this is the component that most of these cities lack coming in. Cincinnati already has around 13-15k people living Downtown and in OTR. A streetcar would be useful for the longer trips (as mentioned above), but also the undesirable ones. You may normally have no problem walking 6 blocks or so...but when it's raining it may be another question. 3) What will be the motivation to get people out of other modes of transportation and onto the streetcar in the first place, given that Cincinnati currently does not have the rider-ship base that Portland had to begin with, or an established wealth of economic base, as well as safety and walk-ability issues still representing challenges? Cincinnati actually does quite well with ridership numbers on a bus-only system. Even more people would ride if it were easier to understand for lets say out of towners or people new to the center city. A fixed-line track accomplishes just that and then some...especially given the fact that this route is proposed to run adjacent to Government Square and link up with even more riders for easy transfers from bus to streetcar. 4) What will make this mode of transportation more convenient than others currently available given the dynamics present today in downtown Cincinnati? I'm not sure what you mean by the "dynamics present today in downtown" but I'll take a stab based on your previous comments. Rarely does traffic ever come to a complete stand-still anywhere downtown. Therefore you won't see the streetcar sitting in traffic...furthermore, most congested streets downtown (during rush hour) are the E/W streets. The streetcar has a N/S orientation and would therefore avoid any potential problems there...and it would take total gridlock and the blockage of entire intersections for this to really be troublesome. As for this system being more convenient, see my above comments and read up on some of the rationale presented on www.cincystreetcar.com. 5) Is there a Plan B? Can we perhaps initiate a route that will address the above issues on a smaller scale first that could be a resounding success by transporting people to and from the places they are already going and then add other routes? There is really nothing similar to this in Cincinnati...therefore there really isn't anything that we could tweak in order to make it similar to this (I'm guessing your hinting at Metro Bus service and/or the faux trolleys operating sparingly downtown now). Hopefully I have responded to the questions/concerns you have. If not let me know...I'm always willing to discuss these important issues.
October 12, 200717 yr I will jump on the bandwagon. I bike or drive the few blocks to Findlay Mkt for the reasons already listed above. I also walk to the riverfront or CBD often many times a day. Yes, the streetcar line would provide a service that would be used and is unavailable today. $1.2M is minimal investment and getting a 9:1 or 15:1 ROI is almost trivially easy. Look at the number of vacant buildings within a block of the line (http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/bldginsp/downloads/bldginsp_eps17292.pdf). The single building I live in (on the streetcar line) is listed on-line as an $11M reinvestment. How hard is it to imagine that 20 mid sized building will be renovated. At $500k each, that would create a 10:1 ROI alone without taking in new businesses and tax revenue. The alternate plan, realistically speaking, would be the same alternate plan seen in Cincinnati for some time: do nothing. A city with vision, leadership and belief will provide the infrastructure needed by the private sector to push a market driven rebirth. If the conditions aren't deemed right now, the city will never see the opportunity it has and desires to devolve to a second rate city.
October 12, 200717 yr ^It is $102 million, not $1.2 million. I think Cheryl had a typo and it keeps getting repeated.
October 12, 200717 yr ^Race street is clogged in the PM rush, because several buses run it briefly to get to 5th. But the streetcar won't be on it. That's the only N-S street I can think of with frustrating rush hour traffic. People that think Cincinnati's traffic is bad apparently haven't been to the suburbs. Side note, you don't want to eat at the B/G Diner.
October 12, 200717 yr ^It is $102 million, not $1.2 million. I think Cheryl had a typo and it keeps getting repeated. that makes more sense...I was wondering how a streetcar line could be built for the equivalent of Kirk Saarloos' or Javier Valentin's salary.
October 15, 200717 yr Has anyone here walked the entire route from GAB to Mcmicken and back? Try it on a Sat or Sunday morning. This freakin thing better get built! :-D
October 15, 200717 yr Has anyone here walked the entire route from GAB to Mcmicken and back? Try it on a Sat or Sunday morning. This freakin thing better get built! :-D The Enquirer interviewed me the other day and asked if I would change anything about the route. I said, "It's perfect. I wouldn't change a thing."
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