October 18, 200717 yr The sad thing is that of the suburban areas, Sharonville and Mason actually have residual urban cores that could be enhanced by a streetcar. An interurban style car heading up Reading Road which catch both towns.
October 18, 200717 yr Some people just dont get it. Buffalo has streetcars? http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/forum/
October 18, 200717 yr ya know, if this city had streetcars, there is no question where I would live if I decide to stay here. Certainly, if streetcars don't happen, thats all the more reason to leave and find somewhere that can accomadate the lifestyle I want to live...and that is one without a car or limited car use. I know there are a lot of people who share this sentiment. Plus, its nice to live somewhere with positive energy and with a sense that its going somewhere. Streetcars can provide this energy.
October 18, 200717 yr ya know, if this city had streetcars, there is no question where I would live if I decide to stay here. Certainly, if streetcars don't happen, thats all the more reason to leave and find somewhere that can accomadate the lifestyle I want to live...and that is one without a car or limited car use. I know there are a lot of people who share this sentiment. Plus, its nice to live somewhere with positive energy and with a sense that its going somewhere. Streetcars can provide this energy. Write a letter, 100 words or less, to The Enquirer. Don't change a thing.
October 18, 200717 yr My favorite quote from the fear-mongering streetcar backlash comes from Joe Deters: "The prosecutor says until police secure the area, operating a trolley is like running cars through Jurassic Park. He says 'this is nuts.'" link
October 18, 200717 yr Author ya know, if this city had streetcars, there is no question where I would live if I decide to stay here. Certainly, if streetcars don't happen, thats all the more reason to leave and find somewhere that can accomadate the lifestyle I want to live...and that is one without a car or limited car use. I know there are a lot of people who share this sentiment. Plus, its nice to live somewhere with positive energy and with a sense that its going somewhere. Streetcars can provide this energy. write a letter to the editor and to your councilmen expressing these views
October 18, 200717 yr >Like Bortz stated this IS the most important thing to happen in cincinnati in the last 75 years. Well I'd argue that construction of the expressway system, the shift from classicism and various vernacular styles to modernism, and probably 5-10 other things I could think of if I wanted to spend more time on this post were a much bigger deal than the reintroduction of rail transit to cities which originally grew around dismantled systems. Also I heard John Schneider's radio appearance yesterday while sitting in traffic in the Fields-Ertel area. I hadn't been up there in ten years and I sat there idling in disbelief at the physical deterioration of an area that's at most 15 years old and the incredible 1pm traffic congestion. Sat through at least three light cycles to get to the store and five light cycles to get back on I-71. It was literally something like 35 minutes to get off the highway, drive to Office Max, pick up some copies, and get back on the highway.
October 18, 200717 yr Congratulations, Joe Deters, you've just been named Cincinnati Jackass of the Month.
October 18, 200717 yr Deters don't know shit about transportation! Another example of dumbasses talking when they should be listening.
October 18, 200717 yr "The prosecutor says until police secure the area, operating a trolley is like running cars through Jurassic Park. He says 'this is nuts.'" Let's see, we can try to "secure" the area by paying (a ton) to put a cop on every corner, or subsidizing a streetcar to put a ton of citizens on every block. I think the later reduces crime for a lot less money Mr. Deters!
October 18, 200717 yr More cops on the street is just a band-aid fix to a much larger issue. The streetcar is not a solution to that much larger issue either, but at least it accomplishes similar things and then some when compared to more cops on the street. Ultimately the desire, to partake in criminal activity, needs to be diminished...and that is not going to come through more police patrols.
October 18, 200717 yr As we all know, crime rates are usually reflective of economic conditions. Improve the economy in a region, city or neighborhood and the crime rate typically goes down. Thus, I would suspect that a catalytic investment like a streetcar project would do some positive things for the neighborhoods just north of downtown Cincinnati, including raising the economic and safety conditions. The suburbs can have their subsidized highways which were built in a world 50 years ago that no longer exists. That world was unfettered by concern over oil supplies, environmental issues and the need for social justice. Thankfully, such irresponsibility is fading, and those cities which can adapt to the new paradigm will remain economically sustainable. Those that don't, won't. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 18, 200717 yr Thankfully, such irresponsibility is fading, and those cities which can adapt to the new paradigm will remain economically sustainable. Those that don't, won't. The boom days of the Sunbelt are nearing...mark my words.
October 18, 200717 yr I think my favorite thing about that Enquirer forum is that when you read each post, you can guess whether the commenter lives in a city or a suburb with about 90% accuracy. It's amazing how divided the opinion is over a project that really only affects one part of town. You don't see people from downtown up in arms, for instance, over "The Village at the Streets of West Chester". Also, I hadn't accounted for how misunderstood this project would be. I saw A LOT of posts from the suburbs that were along the lines of "who would ever ride this?" or "why would I park in OTR and then ride downtown?" or "a light rail line that runs right to my front door would be a much better investment". What's amazing to me is that these people who live 20-30 miles away think that somehow the streetcar is for THEM. Um... hello? We're building the streetcar for the people who already live in CBD/OTR and to encourage more people to live there as well. It's not primarily intended to allow people from the suburbs to access downtown more easily. I mean, obviously people who live outside of the 275 loop have no interest in city living themselves, but clearly the idea of actually living near downtown is so foreign to them that it's nigh unimaginable that ANYONE would ever want to spend more than an hour there, much less take up residence. Apparently, they view a trip to downtown the way I view a trip to Jungle Jim's, but with worse parking options; fun for an afternoon trip every few weeks maybe. I wish The Enquirer would explain in it's next article that a streetcar is not intended to ease the commute of drivers from outside the city and that if people want that sort of thing, they really need to not vote down light rail next time around. I thought that was kind of obvious, but clearly I was wrong.
October 18, 200717 yr Thankfully, such irresponsibility is fading, and those cities which can adapt to the new paradigm will remain economically sustainable. Those that don't, won't. The boom days of the Sunbelt are nearing...mark my words. You may not be far off on that. Without rain, Atlanta's only got a 3 month water supply left: http://www.ajc.com/search/content/metro/stories/2007/10/11/wateruse1011.html And Michigan's Governor Jennifer Granholm basically told New Mexico's Governor Bill Richardson to go **** himself, when he submitted a proposal for the states bordering the Great Lakes to share water with the cities/states in the southwest. This is a direct quote: "“Hell No. That's my response." Good for her. Why should Michigan (or Ohio for that matter) encourage the irresponsible growth of cities in the desert like Las Vegas, Phoenix, and LA? Basically, if you want water, move to the midwest. http://www.wzzm13.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=82169 EDIT: Coincidentally, someone just posted an article from Albuquerque touching on this same type of issue (growth without water supply): http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=14386.0
October 18, 200717 yr MORE: http://www.cincinnatibeacon.com/index.php/content/comments/streetcar_dollar_lies_who_is_responsible/#comments
October 18, 200717 yr AND MORE, EVEN: http://www.haloscan.com/comments/cincyblog/2526326925140594779/
October 18, 200717 yr Author from the city presentation Guideway and Track Elements $22,100,000 Platforms and Stops $ 2,300,000 Maintenance Facilities $ 6,200,000 Utility Relocations $ 3,900,000 Power Systems $17,800,000 Vehicles $25,100,000 Engineering & Financing $16,300,000 Contingencies $ 8,100,000 Total $101,800,000 Costs are projected in 2010 dollars.
October 18, 200717 yr Author Source Total TIF $25,000,000 City Capital $25,000,000 Blue Ash Proceeds $11,000,000 Public/Private Partnerships $20,000,000 Private Contributions $11,000,000 State Capital Grant $10,000,000 Total $102,000,000
October 18, 200717 yr I think a good idea is to try and get some kind of commitment by some restaurants, retail, and especially a grocery store(KROGER) commit to buying property along the line some where. I'm all for the streetcars, but I'm affriad it will fail because the people of cincinnati won't except it, make use of it, etc.....
October 18, 200717 yr Well, look at Gateway. Restraunts include Jean Robert, and a big player to be named later--Retail including Park and Vine, Metronation, Mica etc. And huge amounts of residential.. the commitment was done a long time ago by 3CDC which already owns vast amounts of property along the line.
October 18, 200717 yr Author I think a good idea is to try and get some kind of commitment by some restaurants, retail, and especially a grocery store(KROGER) commit to buying property along the line some where. I'm all for the streetcars, but I'm affriad it will fail because the people of cincinnati won't except it, make use of it, etc..... once the route is finalized and funding approved, there will be a flurry of purchasing all along the line.
October 18, 200717 yr Well, look at Gateway. Restraunts include Jean Robert, and a big player to be named later--Retail including Park and Vine, Metronation, Mica etc. And huge amounts of residential.. the commitment was done a long time ago by 3CDC which already owns vast amounts of property along the line. Forgive me, but I'm still trying to famalarize myself with downtown, but what is "Gateway"
October 18, 200717 yr gotch ya......I was just talking with my wife and she said some of her co-workers live in OTR and say they like it, but are thinking of moving because they can't find places to go out after 6. Hopefully the street car will solve that problem.
October 18, 200717 yr I was just talking with my wife and she said some of her co-workers live in OTR and say they like it, but are thinking of moving because they can't find places to go out after 6. Hopefully the street car will solve that problem. Seriously? There are definitely places to go after 6!
October 19, 200717 yr >Deters don't know sh!t about transportation! Another example of dumbasses talking when they should be listening. I heard bits of Cunningham's show again today. They replayed the Deters phone call from yesterday, which I must say revealed Mr. Deters to be quite misinformed. Perhaps someone who has been to many of the meetings can confirm my suspicion that he hasn't been to any of them. He called it the "cable cars or whatever" and I think his whole call was to direct attention to the jail issue which apparently is in danger of failing miserably. Also, his comments about how you have to do something "really bad" to get sent to jail in Hamilton County (because of the jail shortage) is flat-out wrong. I know people who have been sent to jail here for incredibly minor, even humorous "offenses". All kinds of people get probation violations for extremely minor transgressions and end up going to jail for 30 or 60 days or however long their suspended jail sentence was for the original incident (which often was a non-violent misdemeanor drug charge). Also, for some reason Cunningham had a card slipped to him that read "Detroit tried the streetcars and it failed miserably". He didn't realize he was talking about Detroit's people mover. Detroit's a mess but it most certainly never built a modern streetcar line.
October 19, 200717 yr gotch ya......I was just talking with my wife and she said some of her co-workers live in OTR and say they like it, but are thinking of moving because they can't find places to go out after 6. Hopefully the street car will solve that problem. Uh... here is what it means. They stay inside all day, or use a car to drive to 'familiar' chain restaurants for a drink or hop on down to the local chain entertainment station for their goodies. If you walked around, you'd be able to find these local establishments that provide a great atmosphere for drinks and food, and find entertainment such as plays, operas, musicals, etc. all within walking or at least a bikable distance.
October 19, 200717 yr I think a good idea is to try and get some kind of commitment by some restaurants, retail, and especially a grocery store(KROGER) commit to buying property along the line some where. The best kroger in the city(has all basics without sifting thru 1000 different brands) is on Vine st 1 block east of the propsed streetcar line, we don't need a big suburban big box kroger downtown and no way do we need it in OTR.
October 19, 200717 yr well what are some of the places...names would be helpful. These co-workers moved here from MI and Buffalo. Would just like to pass on some good places to go.
October 19, 200717 yr http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20071018/NEWS01/310180049/ Did anyone see this article? Wonder if Duke knows something we don't? I hope this isn't a set back.
October 19, 200717 yr kaldis on main st below zero on walnut arnolds on eight Plus, Courtyard Cafe Mr. Pitiful's Plus, several new places are opening later this year on Main St. There is also the Know Theater and New Stage Collective. Don't forget about the stores on Vine St. - Park + Vine, MetroNation, and City Roots with more to follow.
October 19, 200717 yr Author http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20071018/NEWS01/310180049/ Did anyone see this article? Wonder if Duke knows something we don't? I hope this isn't a set back. its all good. don't freak out yet. just keep applying pressure to our elected officials, writing letters and supporting the project.
October 19, 200717 yr PAVELISH ON BASIC CITY SERVICES As the campaign enters the final stretch most, if not all ,of the candidates will propose various plans that will save the City (and perhaps the world). And I guess I have shared my thoughts. And the more and more I campaign the more and more I realize that we candidates are not the best minds in the City. We are the best POLITICIANS. I was hammered by the movers and shakers on my cautious approach to the streetcars. I was scolded because I mentioned that Buffalo had a failing streetcar system( but their form of streetcar was more like a very small light rail system.) (But still failing). Sorry, I stand corrected. I was actually suprised that anyone listened to me. My new Boston Terrier sure doesn't listen...I was lectured on what cities are having success with their streetcars. I have followed some of the success stories but those cities are somewhat different and I thought not to compare. But surprisingly I do support a streetcar. I've attended several meetings and learned quite a bit. But I am still troubled at the route. I also support a Banks project and the future Banks II (west of Paul Brown Stadium). And it is great what developers are doing along Eastern (Riverside Dr). I love to see the private sector at work. Remember I am a private sector guy. All of this is needed to bring back the City... But in all of this "excitement" should we not FIRST supply our citizens will top quality City services. Should we not provide the very best in road repair, trash collection, emergency care, and most of all POLICING. And should we not have more accountability and accessibility in City Hall?? As we invest, develop, and move forward let us not forget the most important - THE BASIC SERVICES. www.pavelish.com posted by pavelish at 10:05 PM 0 comments links to this post
October 19, 200717 yr Sorry, forgot to post the URL of the previous posting. You'll find more postings about the streetcar by other council candidates here: http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/forum/
October 19, 200717 yr http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20071018/NEWS01/310180049/ Did anyone see this article? Wonder if Duke knows something we don't? I hope this isn't a set back. They don't have any inside knowledge that we don't. Bortz was just thinking hey...we'll need electricity for this project, maybe we can get one of our corporate citizens to step up and give something back to the community. Apparently Duke is not in the mood for being a good corporate citizen...man do I wish Cinergy was still here. But as thomasbw said...don't worry about this. This is only a portion of the funding scheme...with most of the other areas being pretty sured up. They'll figure something out for this.
October 19, 200717 yr http://www.cincinnatibeacon.com/index.php/content/comments/the_streetcar_false_analogy_cincinnati_is_not_portland/ They just keep coming. Didn't I see someone post the other day that Cincinnati is actually more dense than Portland -- thus kind of defeating the notion that Portland is only compact because of the UGB? Something else to remember about Portland's UGB: by law, it has to have a twenty-year supply of buildable land within its boundaries. That's a lot of land. Plus, who that is looking to live beyond the edge of an urbanized area would instead choose to live downtown because they find that their choices on the fringe are limited? I wonder, do these people ever just take a moment to turn away from the keyboard and think for a while?
October 19, 200717 yr Pavelish's sight are riddled with speling and grammaticle airs: (5) A beautiful river full of year long barg commerce and summer pleasure boats. (6) Beautiful City archetecture (housing) which is unique and the envy of the nation. (especially downtown and Over The Rhine). ...and for a self-anointed intellectual, The Dean has his share of linguistic hiccups on display on his site. Speaking from my experience having lived in seven different cities and towns, it's rare to meet a person who has any idea what their city's population is, what it was, how MSA is not the same as city population, where a particular MSA ranks compared to the rest of the country, and so on. Just today I had someone telling me with three (yes three!) college degrees that Butler County is going to surpass Hamilton County in population in five years (apparently people are moving out in droves because of the high taxes and high taxes alone), about a year ago one of my brother's friends told me China's GDP was going to overtake ours in two years. We also have the problem in this city of so many thinking of it as small. I think that mostly stems from the "small market" stigma surrounding the professional teams, the lack of an NBA team, and so on.
October 20, 200717 yr Cranley says that the streetcar as currently proposed would max out the NPV of the CBD and OTR east and west TIFs.
October 20, 200717 yr Sorry, net present value. And apparently only for the western district. What that functionally means is that there isn't money left to subsidize other projects, like 3CDC's projects.
October 20, 200717 yr What does that mean for the streetcars then? Will people push for them to be put off so other 3CDC projects can be completed?
October 20, 200717 yr Is anyone else concerned that in a recent article in The Enquirer it was made clear that the City wants private businesses to help finance the building of the streetcar, the capital costs? Isn't this what municipal bond issues are for? If it is bad capitalism to have the government doing the work of private interests, isn't it equally bad to have private interests funding government works (outside of the interest they would receive as purchasers of the aforementioned bonds)? I really think allowing any private corporation any sort of equity partnership in this project is a huge mistake.
October 20, 200717 yr What does that mean for the streetcars then? Will people push for them to be put off so other 3CDC projects can be completed? I hope not. I really do think that bringing streetcars back to Cincinnati is the most important project right now, in that it will spur massive private investment downtown in the short term and hopefully having some rail transit will make a regional light rail system a possibility in the future. The Chicago Transit Authority set up a site to make it easy for citizens to contact their state and local legislators regarding transit funding and expansion. Do you think we could do the same thing here? Or based on the negative feedback the streetcar is getting from the suburban public on the enquirer's forum, would this be a mistake because we'd be making it easier for the uninformed to contact these legislators? Here's the link to their site. It's pretty slick because it hand-holds you through the parts of the process that deter most people from taking the steps to ensure that they are heard, like figuring out who to actually speak to and tracking down the proper contact information for those persons: http://www.savechicagolandtransit.com/actnow.asp
October 20, 200717 yr What are the next steps here as far as moving torwards approval? It seems the "powers that be" are pretty much on board with this poject so what happens next? Are their formal votes and if so who is voting? Does the public have a say in this process (other than who they elect)? When is the financing being arranged? Now or later? In NY, there was a West Side Stadium project, which seemed to have several greenlightsth all the financing in place. There was tremendous buzz th Bloomberg and Pataki on board yet at the 11th hour, a city coucilman had veto power and squashed the whole thing. Is this possible? What are the risks of this not happening?
October 20, 200717 yr Cranley says that the streetcar as currently proposed would max out the NPV of the CBD and OTR east and west TIFs. In a static analysis that might or might not be true. But the streetcar will unlock potential in buildings that otherwise have little chance of ever being developed and which were on no one's TIF ledger. So I think we'll talking about an investment that's additive to the total potential TIF, not competitive with what's merely projected now. The other thing is -- and this is a very subtle but crucial point -- this will accelerate the curve of development, so more projects will come on earlier and better, allowing TIF funds to be generated sooner rather than later. That adds up to a bigger bonding capacity.
Create an account or sign in to comment