>I think the 17 should bypass Clifton and, at Northside, continue downtown along Central Parkway.

 

I should add that there are about four different #17's...a "17 Northgate", a "17 Northgate-Mt. Airy", a "17 Mt. Healthy", and a "17 Seven Hills".  I think the #17 Mt. Healthy uses Colerain then turns east at North Bend whereas the #17 Northgate uses the Hamilton Ave. hill and then turns west at North Bend.  It's totally confusing and I don't quite understand why they don't designate them as different numbered routes.  The #18 for example also ends up at Northgate and uses the Colerain hill but turns west at North Bend and goes up Cheviot through White Oak...using their logic it might as well have been a #17.   

 

Overall I think watching people's bus riding behavior is pretty interesting.  Some people take it humorously short distances, some get on at obscure locations and leave at other obscure locations.  Also, if you're on Colerain or Hamilton the "Garage" buses will sometimes pick you up and drop you off at Knowlton's Corner, a little-known fact that increases headways, although it's erratic.  And they don't charge a fare!   

 

Now we know.

 

Yep. 

Cranley just lost my vote.

 

I'm apt to agree with you.

Pat Fischer on Streetcars

 

Public Transportation Is A Key Component Of A Thriving City

 

Other cities are significantly ahead of Cincinnati in the use of public transportation. I support a complete streetcar system as proposed from downtown to uptown. It must connect downtown and uptown though to be a worthwhile project. Given the City's budget constraints, it is imperative that the funding for this project be in place before it begins. I support the City administration's continued efforts to work on the financing options.

 

 

 

See: http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/forum/

Very nice article UncleRandal.  As a fellow UC DAAP'er I too consider myself part of that creative class and I do not happen to agree with you.  Will you be able to afford a place downtown after your graduation so you can ride to Findlay to shop?  Or, like the majority of students, will you head off to parts unknown where the job is offered and the paycheck signed? If you stay, you will be one of a handful of entry level employees that more than likely will not be able to live downtown and is this what we want to base future streetcar ridership numbers on? It's interesting that the streetcar proposal has so many students backing it, considering it will take several years to build and by then, I really wonder who will still be around......oh yeah, that would probably be me.  My children thankfully are all living in Cincinnati now - they can't afford to live downtown.  I can only hope this thing ends up the humongous success that is being sold to the public and does not force out people that help make downtown Cincinnati dynamic currently. Me?  I'll believe it when I see it, Cincinnati seems to be overlooking too many issues and as usual we'll get all gung-ho, dump a ton of money on a project and build it bigger and better than anyone else.  Unfortunatley, no project will seamlessly turn a town on its end with economic growth without causing other things to happen.  There are always underlying social forces and issues that have to be dealt with.  I had always hoped that Cincinnati could be a blend of diversity, cultures, and unique architecture, a destination place like no other in the United States.  Instead, it seems we are destined to become a stale whitebread community of gentrification with a Starbucks on every corner. When you are in Atlanta, Portland, or NYC with your feet on your desk in the corner office of the penthouse, I'll still be here dealing with what you and the council members who are no longer in office left me.  Aren't I the lucky one. I just hope we can slow this down just long enough to take into consideration who will be affected before we jump in with both feet and steam-roller through neighborhoods.

 

 

the Streetcar can make downtown living more affordable by reducing parking ratios and turning the hundreds of vacant buildings in OTR into apartments for people of all income levels.

I just did a quick search of downtown Apts in cincinnati

 

1 bdr $525

2 bdr $1700

2 bdr $750

2 bdr $1125

2 bdr $1000

 

Instead, it seems we are destined to become a stale whitebread community of gentrification with a Starbucks on every corner.

 

Do you really think this is what downtown Cincinnati is becoming?

 

Will you be able to afford a place downtown after your graduation so you can ride to Findlay to shop?  . . . . If you stay, you will be one of a handful of entry level employees that more than likely will not be able to live downtown

 

I don't think it's unreasonable for a recent college grad to be able to rent an apartment downtown.  Sure, they won't be to afford a penthouse unit (neither can I after ten years in IT), but they seems to be a wide range of rent levels downtown.

I had always hoped that Cincinnati could be a blend of diversity, cultures, and unique architecture, a destination place like no other in the United States. 

 

Something like this, maybe? http://www.thecrowellco.com/

 

 

Um... wow.  I don't want to hit on everything Cheryl said, but as a "young professional" in the "creative class" who apparently defied the odds and landed a job in the Cincinnati area that actually pays enough for me to exist here (this region is insanely affordable, by the way), I'd just like to point out that I've wanted Cincinnati to have a real rail system for as long as I can remember.  That would be: growing up here, living here now, and looking to my future right here, where I plan to stay.  This streetcar is definitely a step in that direction, and hopefully light rail is around the corner.

Will you be able to afford a place downtown after your graduation so you can ride to Findlay to shop?

Condos in Over-the-Rhine are starting at $85,000 and most are around the $120,000 range.  There a a good deal of studio and one-bedroom apartments downtown for under $500.

 

Instead, it seems we are destined to become a stale whitebread community of gentrification with a Starbucks on every corner.

:-o

:roll:

:?

 

In my humble opinion, the only thing more obnoxious than your self-serving posts is your snotty attitude.  I have read posts on the Beacon website and I am at a loss!  I don't understand how people can claim to be fostering education when spewing ignorance, trying only to get a strong reaction.

When you are in Atlanta, Portland, or NYC with your feet on your desk in the corner office of the penthouse, I'll still be here dealing with what you and the council members who are no longer in office left me.  Aren't I the lucky one. I just hope we can slow this down just long enough to take into consideration who will be affected before we jump in with both feet and steam-roller through neighborhoods.

 

Also, I'm glad Cheryl has Randy's life all planned out for him. I'm sure he appreciates it.

Very nice article UncleRandal.  As a fellow UC DAAP'er I too consider myself part of that creative class and I do not happen to agree with you.  Will you be able to afford a place downtown after your graduation so you can ride to Findlay to shop?  Or, like the majority of students, will you head off to parts unknown where the job is offered and the paycheck signed? If you stay, you will be one of a handful of entry level employees that more than likely will not be able to live downtown and is this what we want to base future streetcar ridership numbers on? It's interesting that the streetcar proposal has so many students backing it, considering it will take several years to build and by then, I really wonder who will still be around......oh yeah, that would probably be me.  My children thankfully are all living in Cincinnati now - they can't afford to live downtown.  I can only hope this thing ends up the humongous success that is being sold to the public and does not force out people that help make downtown Cincinnati dynamic currently. Me?  I'll believe it when I see it, Cincinnati seems to be overlooking too many issues and as usual we'll get all gung-ho, dump a ton of money on a project and build it bigger and better than anyone else.  Unfortunatley, no project will seamlessly turn a town on its end with economic growth without causing other things to happen.  There are always underlying social forces and issues that have to be dealt with.  I had always hoped that Cincinnati could be a blend of diversity, cultures, and unique architecture, a destination place like no other in the United States.  Instead, it seems we are destined to become a stale whitebread community of gentrification with a Starbucks on every corner. When you are in Atlanta, Portland, or NYC with your feet on your desk in the corner office of the penthouse, I'll still be here dealing with what you and the council members who are no longer in office left me.  Aren't I the lucky one. I just hope we can slow this down just long enough to take into consideration who will be affected before we jump in with both feet and steam-roller through neighborhoods.

 

 

 

WHah Whah Whah WHahhhhhhh!!!!!   ???????????????????????  :evil:

It's interesting that the streetcar proposal has so many students backing it, considering it will take several years to build and by then, I really wonder who will still be around.

 

I don't find this interesting at all. Not all people think only of their own personal gain and will support something that will be beneficial for the community even after they are gone. It says a lot for Cincinnati that student support does exist, just as it says a lot to Cincinnati.

Very nice article UncleRandal.  As a fellow UC DAAP'er I too consider myself part of that creative class and I do not happen to agree with you.  Will you be able to afford a place downtown after your graduation so you can ride to Findlay to shop?

 

I know current students who live Downtown and in OTR both.  But you're right...I'm not going to move Downtown after I graduate.  Why, because I'll be living there before I graduate.  Cincinnati is, by far, one of the most affordable cities in the nation.

 

Or, like the majority of students, will you head off to parts unknown where the job is offered and the paycheck signed? If you stay, you will be one of a handful of entry level employees that more than likely will not be able to live downtown and is this what we want to base future streetcar ridership numbers on?

 

I have essentially already been made an offer to work elsewhere following my graduation (Atlanta).  I very much plan on staying here after I graduate...and most likely I'll be dealing with the very same politicians you mention.  There are many good jobs here, but you do have to make an effort...whereas is some other areas a job may just fall into your lap (ie my ATL opportunity).  You can make what you want of it in my opinion.

 

Unfortunatley, no project will seamlessly turn a town on its end with economic growth without causing other things to happen.  There are always underlying social forces and issues that have to be dealt with.  I had always hoped that Cincinnati could be a blend of diversity, cultures, and unique architecture, a destination place like no other in the United States.

 

You're absolutely right...a streetcar system is not the sole answer for the things Cincinnati is trying to improve upon, but it is part of the answer.  A streetcar system, by itself, will not solve our transportation needs, social issues or the flight of our young/talented population.  It will though help with these...the thing is that no one is pitching this as Cincinnati's answer to everything.  This is a $100M project that seems to be a good idea at this point.  It makes financial sense, introduces a new form of transit and seems to be creating some excitement about city-living.  I don't see what's wrong with that...especially when much of this money is coming from outside sources.

 

I just hope we can slow this down just long enough to take into consideration who will be affected before we jump in with both feet and steam-roller through neighborhoods.

 

I'm assuming you're talking about OTR with this comment.  I'll just say that OTR used to be home to around 50,000 people...today there are roughly 7-9k.  There is plenty of room for new residents/businesses and the existing people that make OTR the great neighborhood it is today.  I personally don't want OTR to be a place that houses solely poor individuals, nor do I want it to be a place that houses only the rich.  I think the two can coexist, don' you...and isn't that ultimately what you want?

I had always hoped that Cincinnati could be a blend of diversity, cultures, and unique architecture, a destination place like no other in the United States. 

 

Something like this, maybe? http://www.thecrowellco.com/

 

 

 

LOL! Awesome John.  So the truth comes out, I was wondering what her agenda was and now we know.

The central problem with Cincinnati's downtown is that it has to compete for businesses and residents and entertainment with a dozen other great areas in the metropolitan region.  Other similarly sized cities don't have this issue because they're pretty boring by comparison.  No river, no hills, no old neighborhoods.  The streetcar will go a long way toward improving the situation in Over-the-Rhine and establishing the riverfront, downtown, and Over-the-Rhine as one continuous safe and active area.  We already have a great downtown and with the riverfront and Over-the-Rhine in good condition ten years from now Cincinnati will have few peers amongst mid-sized cities.     

 

This business about not being able to afford to live in a downtown apartment making $30K is ridiculous.  I've seen listings for under $500/mo downtown.   

^I actually have seen apts. in the CBD starting from $300 a month (this was on E 7th).

I'm not sure I understand the rationale behind the postponement of this streetcar conference that was to be held at XU.  John do you know anything...it just doesn't seem to make sense.

 

Here is the story...

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2007/10/22/daily47.html

I couldn't make it that day so i was glad it was postponed, but I didn't understand the postponement either.

>Will you be able to afford a place downtown after your graduation so you can ride to Findlay to shop?  Or, like the majority of students, will you head off to parts unknown where the job is offered and the paycheck signed?

 

So what if it is? Aren't people in other cities offered jobs here? Is Cincinnati only exporting talent?

 

>If you stay, you will be one of a handful of entry level employees that more than likely will not be able to live downtown and is this what we want to base future streetcar ridership numbers on?

 

Who ever said people will have to live downtown? 200k + people work downtown every day. Downtown is everybody's neighborhood.

 

 

>It's interesting that the streetcar proposal has so many students backing it, considering it will take several years to build and by then, I really wonder who will still be around......oh yeah, that would probably be me.

 

Students are open minded people. They're impressionable, in a state of forming beliefs and thus, a great target for spreading the word on the benefits of cutting edge transit options. It's not so much that students support it because they plan to use it; they support the idea of it.

 

>My children thankfully are all living in Cincinnati now - they can't afford to live downtown.  I can only hope this thing ends up the humongous success that is being sold to the public and does not force out people that help make downtown Cincinnati dynamic currently.

 

Loss of diversity isn't generally a good thing; I agree. However, with a street car you're forcing different walks of life to interact with each other and use the same form of transportation. OTR has so much vacancy, so many abandoned buildings and abscentee landlords, it's not like there isn't room for growth without kicking people out.

 

>Me?  I'll believe it when I see it, Cincinnati seems to be overlooking too many issues and as usual we'll get all gung-ho, dump a ton of money on a project and build it bigger and better than anyone else. 

 

It sounds like you need to get involved more in what's going on downtown. Check out the new restaurants that are open. Watch a football game on fountain square. Those aren't projects which necessitated hundreds of millions of dollars, but the little things add up and create a big impact.

 

 

>There are always underlying social forces and issues that have to be dealt with. 

 

Umm. Welcome to America?  :roll:

 

>I had always hoped that Cincinnati could be a blend of diversity, cultures, and unique architecture, a destination place like no other in the United States.  Instead, it seems we are destined to become a stale whitebread community of gentrification with a Starbucks on every corner.

 

I'm being very blunt here, but don't we have Hyde Park and Mt. Adams for that? People don't go downtown to experience white bread. Not in Cincinnati.

 

>When you are in Atlanta, Portland, or NYC with your feet on your desk in the corner office of the penthouse, I'll still be here dealing with what you and the council members who are no longer in office left me.  Aren't I the lucky one. I just hope we can slow this down just long enough to take into consideration who will be affected before we jump in with both feet and steam-roller through neighborhoods.

 

Please tell me you're not the archetypal pessimist who blames their problems on the city.

 

No one is steam rolling the city. OTR is a historic district. People tend to forget we have those.

 

 

I just don't get the counter argument to the street car. It's proven to be successful in other cities. It has an insanely great return on investment. 1:32 I believe. Even if it causes gentrification in OTR, those residents, even those who are poor, will be given a greater quality of life because vacant property will be worth investing in. Seriously, what is the counter argument? Is it really better if we choose not to improve OTR in ways we know how? Should we just police it to death? Search and seizure? That didn't work too well for Ronald Reagan. The best way to improve OTR is to get all walks of life into the neighborhood. We need more business owners. We need people residing in the neighborhood who have wealth. If there's some alternative that offers a greater return on investment in improving OTR then I think we should go for it but I've yet to hear of any better alternatives.

Cheryl; I lived here as a student at UC and I bought my home in OTR cheap.  There are dozens of similar buildings listed now in OTR, West End, Mohawk, Fairview, not to mention East Price Hill, Lower Price Hill, Faimount, Northside, Mt. Auburn etc etc.  It would take a lifetime of constant rehab and billions of dollars of investment to upgrade our abundant housing stock.  Vacant buildings are demolished almost every day in this city and you are worried about a 2 mile streetcar making housing unaffordable?   And your counter proposal is what? No rail at all?  More expressway lanes?  Better busses? No public transit?  More housing subsidies?  That we think about it more?  Hey, I support the streetcar, but I realize it is not perfect and I am open to suggestions if you have any ideas. 

 

Please don't assume that those of us that choose to live downtown fit your gentry latte drinker stereotype.  I have lived in OTR years and have never set foot in a Starbucks, however I welcome any amenities that make downtown more livable for families like mine. 

 

There is no better equalizer in society than great public spaces and great public transportation.

I am a current UC student, working only part-time and my girlfriend and I can already afford a studio apartment at 7th and Race currently (not having a car payment or insurance sure helps).  I laugh at what my friends in NYC, Seattle, Portland, Denver and Charlotte pay per month for digs half as good as mine.  And I would hate to think that I will not be able to afford to live where I currently live when I graduate next year and work full time.     

Monzel's Response - Streetcars

 

This past Wednesday Council passed a resolution, which I voted for, that asked the city administration to report back to council in four weeks regarding the specifics of the proposed streetcar system. During this time, we need to make sure the financing plan is sound and realistic. My preference would be to utilize State, Federal and private funding. I do not agree with taking funding that could be used for neighborhood development projects.

 

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/forum/

 

Greg Harris: Build, Create New Wealth, Prosper

 

There was a time when Cincinnati was audaciously confident, as we were a city of many firsts (professional baseball, night baseball, concrete reinforced skyscrapers, the nation's first contemporary arts museum, etc.). In the mid-1800's we were known as the "Athens of the West" for our considerable arts and culture--institutions that we still enjoy today. No small city in the country can boast of so many big city amenities. We should be cocky about this.

 

 

How do we re-capture this Can Do spirit? Do we say "no" to street cars that will generate over $1.5 billion in new wealth--an over 15 to 1 return on investment? Development, jobs and growth cluster around transit. As seen in other cities, the evidence is conclusive.

 

 

Do we say "no" to the Banks because it is not want everyone wants it to be? Let's not make the perfect the enemy of the good. A deal is imminent. Let's sign it. In neighboring cities like Indianapolis, we see the effect that new residential development has had on their downtown. Unlike Newport on the Levee, the Banks will include a critical mass of residential properties that will make this economic development sustainable (as opposed to cyclical like the Levee).

 

 

Regional and international perception of our city is based largely on our downtown and urban core. We build the Banks and street cars, Cincinnati will become America's comeback city.

 

 

 

It's expensive to build the Banks and a street car system, for sure. But the costs of not building are so much greater. A city with so many incredible assets has no excuse not to leverage them.

 

 

There are currently 98 acres of parking lots downtown. Street cars will not only unleash new development on this cement, but embolden developers to rehab properties in downtown and Over-the-Rhine. By building the Banks South of downtown, and propelling redevelopment in O-t-R while reinforcing downtown's current expanding housing market, we we will grow the population of our core and generate the resources needed to combat the most pressing problems in all 52 of Cincinnati's great neighborhoods.

 

 

 

A prosperity agenda anchored in riverfront development, historic renovation, and transit, will grow the city's wealth and allow City Hall to deliver basic services and invest throughout Cincinnati while holding the line on taxes. Let's not have a future defined by cuts, defeatism, and timidity. Cincinnati can and must recapture the confidence, boldness and Can Do spirit of those who built the Queen City.

 

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/forum/

 

 

 

 

Crowley for Streetcars--Financials Need to be Examined

 

I support the streetcar proposal. In fact I am not afraid to admit that I have seen the impact of the streetcar firsthand. When I was a kid I can remember riding the streetcar in Cincinnati. My friends and I would get a day pass and ride around the City all day long.

 

I supported the vote at Council because it represented the next step—we did not approve a financing plan. It is our duty as elected officials to ask questions about the proposed plan and its implications on the rest of the City’s budget. For example we should understand how the proposed financing plan would effect neighborhood infrastructure projects already in the pipeline. When the City Manager brings his recommendations to the Finance Committee in a few weeks I look forward to taking a hard look at the finances before a final vote is cast.

 

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/forum/

Monzel's Response - Streetcars

 

I do not agree with taking funding that could be used for neighborhood development projects.

 

This indicates no understanding that the streetcar IS a neighhood development project.

Monzel's Response - Streetcars

 

I do not agree with taking funding that could be used for neighborhood development projects.

 

This indicates no understanding that the streetcar IS a neighhood development project.

 

It also indicates that people are very short-sighted.

Maybe he means it is a neighborhood that he would rather not develop? 

 

I agree with the shortsightedness comment as well. The primary job of government (in my opinion) is to provide infrastructure and protection.  Both of these tasks are generally seen as having little direct return-on-investment by the group doing them. That is one of the reasons why market forces don't work in those areas, but it certainly is not a reason why the government shouldn't do it either.

 

    "We will grow the population of our core..."

 

    This is the key to the whole thing. I admire the rest of you for your positve attitude, but I just don't see it. The good news is that there is renewed interest in city living. The other news is that Cincinnati is already losing population. Does anyone really think that the streetcar, even in combination with other things, will really turn this trend around? I think it's too little too late.

 

    By the way, I rode a streetcar for the first time in another city this summer and it was wonderful. The technical arguments of overhead wires, traffic, etc., did not seem to hold up. This streetcar thing is more of a social and economic issue than a technical one.

The city proper is gaining population according to recent census estimates. The CBD is also gaining population. The key is to harness this growth and direct it (via the streetcar) to areas that are available. i.e. OTR and the area in/around OTR. If we can begin the "cleaning up" (by that I mean lowering of crime, increase in general aura) of OTR, more people will relocate there. The idea is to create a domino effect OPPOSITE of what has occurred since the 1950s.

 

Only time will tell if the initiatives of today and City council policy can promote positive growth.

Cincinnati has a strong core of neighborhoods...and at this point the city is attacking its most at-risk and troublesome neighborhoods.  If we can be successful at that, then we will be set.  The streetcar will not be the answer for world hunger or peace in the middle-east...I just don't understand why everyone seems to be thinking that it is here to solve all of our issues.  It may help with some of them, but lets just keep focused on what it can/will do.

^ :speech: :banger:        "Brilliant"  both of you!

I have an agenda?  Wow, that's good.  I do, it was and still is to look at the streetcar as a whole project with all its implications, not just a cookie cutter design that will automatically work as it has in Portland with Portland dynamics, because we are Cincinnati and have a whole different set of social and economic dynamics that in no way mimic Portland's. Period. End of agenda. 

 

I never hid the fact that I co-owned a real estate development company, I said that in the beginning.  Other than the personal economic development experience office parks have nothing in common with community revitalization and therefore I offer my sincere apologies, I missed the point of the obvious slam.

 

I also mentioned the fact that my education background is a Masters Education in Community Planning and Economic Development, at University of Cincinnati, DAAP - School of Planning, and that I have been involved on a voluntary basis for several years working in revitalization of communities.  So what?  I am both experienced and educated about what I am talking about?  What a crime.  Oh my, did I forget to mention that I lived downtown too?  Gee, I must be really demented as well. 

 

I seem to be one of very few who backed up every thing I said with facts to support it, and instead of a decent debate where I could have changed my mind, I have a snotty attitude?  Okay, you win, now what?  You want me to agree with you and applaude your attitudes? Hah! LOL!  What a novel idea, call me names and then expect me to agree with what you have to say, and we wonder why Cincinnati can't seem to get ahead. 

Point well put.  Let's keep the dialogue constructive and civil everyone.  We may all agree on the goal but differ on how to get there.  Let's respect that and move forward. 

 

This has been one of the better discussion threads on U-O and the fact there are so many posts and viewer numbers tells me there is a very high level of interest in the streetcar proposal.

 

Cheers!

 

Your moderator.

Or, like I can only hope this thing ends up the humongous success that is being sold to the public and does not force out people that help make downtown Cincinnati dynamic currently. Me? I'll believe it when I see it,

 

Cheryl, I dont wonder why Cincy can't get ahead. Its because of thoughts like these.

I certainly didn't call you names, but if you thought my attitude was snotty, I apologize.  I only asked what you propose as an alternate, and pointed out that Cincinnati is very affordable.  I didn't see you address either of those points in your "factual" rebuttal. 

 

The fact that you develop suburban office parks and volunteer for a non-profit had nothing to do with my comments. 

 

I guess my next question to you would be:  Is there any situation in which you would support light rail or streetcars in Cincinnati?  If so, how do we get there?  If not, what is the alternative to help create the density required for a successful urban center? 

 

I guess my next question to you would be:  Is there any situation in which you would support light rail or streetcars in Cincinnati?  If so, how do we get there?  If not, what is the alternative to help create the density required for a successful urban center? 

 

Cincinnati = 6.6 persons per acre, no rail

 

Portland = 6.2 persons per acre, four light rail lines, another under construction, rapidly expanding streetcar line

 

Who says that Cincinnati is not compact enough for streetcars and light rail?

Folks, its very simple: The lack of strong mass transit has been the ruin of somany American cities in the last half century.  This is fact, not opinion.  I really don't understand how anybody can argue otherwise and therefore be against this project. It is no coincidence that cities w/o mass transit have fallen behind.

For some reason a lot of people think that this will be more of a gimmick than an actual transit option.  Now granted it won't serve any commuting purpose but it is still a transit option nonetheless.  I get real frustrated dealing with all the uninformed people out there.  I don't know how many times someone has come up to me and said:

 

"I thought the city was in debt, how are they supposed to pay for this thing?  This money would be better going to CPS or the jail."

 

After I hear something along those lines I usually follow up with a couple quick highlights on how it is to be paid for, and then notify them that there is a public document that illustrates how it will be paid for.  I then inform them that they need to read up on the project some...after that I usually feel like drinking myself to sleep.

I then inform them that they need to read up on the project some...after that I usually feel like drinking myself to sleep.

 

I do every night....

Former Governor Taft once stated he believed Ohio didn't have the density to support intercity passenger rail.... until someone pointed out to him that Ohio has a greater population density than the nation of France, which supports one of the finest high-speed passenger rail systems in the word.

 

But, sadly, we live in an age where there's no shortage of people who will come up with reasons not to do something, even when it has a clear public benefit. My answer is generally in the form of a question: "Why do you not want the rest of us to have more options?"

We need rail to spread to compete with the wonderful air traffic system that is so very painful to use. At the local level, the streetcar is basically a neighborhood circulator which Metro used to do with buses, which people threw a fit when they stopped, so explain to me why it wouldn't make sense to have a neighborhood circulator downtown.

  I don't think anyone is opposing the actual streetcar. There are some that claim that the benefits may not be worth the cost.

 

  The study projects a 15:1 benefit/cost ratio. If their assumptions are correct, then the streetcar is a no-brainer. If their assumptions are incorrect, then so are their conclusions.

 

  It all comes down to the question, "If this streetcar is built, will development follow?"

 

  No one knows for sure. The only way to know is to build it, and see if they come. It's going to be a $102 million gamble, which, I guess is better than a $2 billion gamble.  :wink:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

  

 

   The study projects a 15:1 benefit/cost ratio. If their assumptions are correct, then the streetcar is a costs. If their assumptions are incorrect, then so are their conclusions.

 

    

 

It's not a 15:1 benefit/cost ratio. More like 2.75:1 -- still an amazingly high B/C ratio for any kind of project, public or private.

 

What people are calling a 15:1 benefit/cost ratio is really a 15:1 cost/cost ratio. You get $15 of new construction (measured by cost, not value) around the streetcar line that costs you $1 to build. The 15:1 relationship is really sort of an impact to cost ratio which suggests that if you make this streetcar investment, a lot of real estate investment will follow because of it. This shouldn't surprise anyone. Think of all the property development that occurs around any freeway interchange.

 

The benefits that need to be compared to the streetcar's costs are mainly real estate benefits, which is why TIF's are an appropriate way to finance the streetcar. The property benefits arise in two ways. First, there is a benefit from the rising value of properties that have already been developed but can now command higher rents. But more important, there is the value gained from properties that otherwise would have little chance of being developed without the streetcar. These are mainly properties that don't now have, nor ever will have, adequate on-site parking. There are blocks and blocks of these buildings all over OTR. And more of their values will be liberated by making OTR a "streetcar community" again.

 

The other benefits are transportation-related -- congestion reduction (think of parking around Findlay Market on Saturdays or before an Aronoff performance) and increased mobility benefits to low-income and zero-car households.

 

So when you take the future stream of all these benefits (and operating costs) over 25 years or so and discount them to Present Value and then compare that number with the cost to build the streetcar, you get the 2.75:1.00 B/C ratio. It's like you showed up at the bank one day at 9:00a and deposited $1.00 and then returned a little before 5:00p to withdraw all your funds which by then had grown to $2.75.

 

Even if this calculated value were off by 100%, it would still be a great deal for Cincinnati.

 

 

 

    Thanks for clearing that up. You said it better than I could.

 

    Still, I wonder if the development will come. While we talk about a $102 million streetcar line, we just spent 100 times that much on highways and associated auto-oriented infrastructure in other places. No wonder there is so much development around highway interchanges.

John has said this a number of times...this is a "calculated risk."  Now I personally don't think it is a risk we can pass up.  Cincinnati is picking up some steam and seeing a lot of positive changes both locally, regionally and at the state level.  Politically the time is now, and why not?  There are no guarantees in life, but this is pretty darn close (imo).  I just don't see how we could take the chance and NOT pounce on this opportunity.

just think of all the positive things that have come from the renovations of fountain square.... that was only 42 million dollar investment and only directly impacts a small portion of the city. now think about $102 spread throughout a large portion of the city... and a streetcar is a much more functional  and a larger development draw on top of that

from the website: www.railwayage.com

 

October 29, 2007

Portland eyes more streetcar routes

 

Portland, Ore., city planners are considering expansion of the Portland streetcar into a full-fledged network criss-crossing the city, and plan to seek neighborhood input to determine which areas would welcome such service first.

 

City officials assert that, unlike bus service, streetcars could generate business and political momentum for clusters of midrise housing and commercial centers that could spread the walkable feel of popular urban neighborhoods.

 

About 140 miles of the city's busiest streets show potential for new streetcar routes, said Patrick Sweeney, project manager for the Portland Office of Transportation. Those streets have dense enough housing, employment and shopping, and are zoned for more.

 

In the next six months, the city's transportation office will rank potential routes based not just on neighborhood and business support, but also on details such as relatively flat terrain and wide intersections for railcar turns.

 

Three open-houses sessions, the first occurring today, will offer city residents a chance to plead for or against a line in their neighborhoods, according to the Oregonian. "A community that has a corridor and advocates for their own corridor is so important to us," Sweeney said. "If they don't support it, we're not going to pick a fight with a neighborhood."

 

http://www.railwayage.com/breaking_news.shtml

CITY COUNCIL CANDIDATES WHO SUPPORT THE CINCINNATI STREETCAR:

 

Here's an updated list of Cincinnati City Council candidates who support, more or less, the streetcar plan presented by City Manager Milton Dohoney on October 16th.  Each candidate listed below has voted for the Manager's plan or has written in favor of it.

 

 

 

These City Council candidates support the Cincinnati Streetcar:

 

 

 

Jeff Berding

 

Chris Bortz - the leading City Council advocate of the Cincinnati Streetcar

 

Laketa Cole

 

David Crowley

 

John Eby

 

Pat Fischer

 

Leslie Ghiz

 

Greg Harris

 

Joan Kaup

 

Chris Monzel

 

Mitch Painter

 

Roxanne Qualls

 

Cecil Thomas

 

George Zamary