Remember, these City Council candidates support the streetcar:

 

Berding, Bortz, Cole, Crowley, Eby, Fischer, Ghiz, Harris, Kaup, Monzel, Painter, Qualls, Thomas, and Zamary.

 

I want to go around to open forums where Crowley speaks and begin every question with "Miiiiiiiiister Crowley,"

It was a good day.

 

The Cincinnati City Council, which has supported the Cincinnati Streetcar by an 8-1 margin, was entirely returned to office. In general, the strongest supporters of the streetcar moved up in the results.

 

Nationally, residents of the Charlotte, NC region voted to continue its investment in light rail transit by a margin of 70% to 30%.

re: yesterday's City Council election

 

Look at the results from yesterday's City Council election. The incumbents who rose the most in the standings compared to 2005 -- Bortz, Crowley and Thomas come to mind -- were among the strongest streetcar supporters. Ghiz, Cole and Monzel are somewhat less supportive; they fell in the standings.

 

None of the non-incumbent opponents were elected.

 

Be interesting to see how downtown and OTR voted.

 

downtown

 

qualls bortz crowly cranley

 

OTR

 

qualls crowley thomas cole

 

 

Gee, that was quick.

 

Brad, I honestly think someone could post a question here like, "How do we cure cancer?" and that you would post the answer within an hour. You or Jake.

 

Thanks.

 

Since you're so adept at this, here's another question: Who were the top-vote-getters in, say, Clifton Heights and Corryville, where the streetcar is going next?

cuf: qualls crowley cranley cole

clifton: qualls crowley cranley thomas

streetcar supporters finishing order

 

Qualls 2

Crowley 3

Thomas 4

Bortz 5

ghiz 6

cole  7

berding 8

monzel 9

fisher 14

harris 15

eby 16

kaup 19

painter 22

zamary 25

I basically stole Cincinnatius' post on another website:

 

$102M for streetcar line

'Need to seize the momentum'

BY MARGARET A. MCGURK | [email protected]

 

 

Undaunted by a $102 million price tag, five Cincinnati City Council members Tuesday voted to push forward with plans for a streetcar line from Freedom Way in downtown to McMicken Avenue in Over-the-Rhine.

 

City Manager Milton Dohoney and City Architect Michael Moore told the economic development committee that the system could be operating by December 2010.

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071017/NEWS01/710170375

 

 

Next Steps:

 

City manager, Dahooney has 4 weeks to bring a final financing plan to the table (which he stated was enough time.) Plus side to this is, is the track runs through 3 tif districts.

 

 

 

Capital funding breakdown:

 

TIF: $25 mil

City Capital: $25 mil

Blue Ash Airport Sale: $11 mil

Public Private Partnerships: $20 mil

Private Contributions: $11 mil

State Capital: $10 mil

 

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/city/downloads/city_pdf16341.pdf

 

Streetcar proposal at a glance

Details about the proposed streetcar system linking downtown and Over-the-Rhine, according to city officials:

 

Time to build: Two to three years.

 

Cost to build: $102 million in 2010 dollars*.

 

Length: 3.9 miles with 18 stops.

 

Cost to operate: $2 million to $2.8 million annually (not counting fare revenue).

 

Proposed fare: 50 cents.

 

Daily ridership: 4,600 in 2010; 6,400 in 2015.

 

* Includes tracks, cars, maintenance facility and a 15-25 percent contingency allowance.

 

 

At the meeting, they not only covered the first leg on the first phase which will include a line just over 4 miles, but they also went over their 2nd leg, which will include a line from McMicken down Clifton Ave. past Ludlow. The other track will go right past UC on the east side ... which I believe was Jefferson Ave. I'll post when new news comes in. One of the encouraging things to here from a couple of the council members was that the city shouldn't only cater to Downtown and Uptown with this type of transportation and neglect the rest of the neighborhoods ... they wanted to see lines extending out to to other neighborhoods. I can definitely see LRT in our future, especially with this administration.

 

 

Cincinnati Streetcar Feasibility Study: http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/pages/-16338-/

 

First leg planned:

 

 

Later Phases

 

Phase 1 of the streetcar will start downtown in the basis. By avoiding hills and jurisdictional boundaries it will be easier and faster to build. Once the system is established, extensions are inevitable and will connect Cincinnati to the surrounding neighborhoods.

 

Connecting the University of Cincinnati is an obvious goal. With a student population of 35,000 students could ride the streetcar downtown for nightlife, a safe alternative to driving, or live downtown and ride the streetcar to class. Co-op students working downtown would have easy access to their jobs and avoid having to pay for parking while on a tight budget.

 

Also in Uptown are numerous hospitals, the Zoo, and the business districts of Coryville, Clifton, and University Heights. Uptown and Downtown are the two largest employment centers in the region. Connecting them would be a boon for the city.

 

To the south is Kentucky. Its dense riverfront neighborhoods, large population, and numerous attractions would be a welcome addition to the streetcar system.

 

To the west are Price Hill and other neighborhoods that would greatly benefit from improved access to downtown.

 

Taking the streetcar east along the river or up to Peeble’s Corner would spark new developments all along the line and provide greater access from the city to Eden Park.

 

The later phases of the streetcar system will reconnect Cincinnati’s neighborhoods and stimulate development all along the routes.

^ don't your arrows on race and elm go the wrong way?

cuf: qualls crowley cranley cole

clifton: qualls crowley cranley thomas

 

Ok, so here's my question: If John Cranley is the principal champion for including Uptown in the first phase of the streetcar, how come he placed third in the Uptown voting? Just asking.

^ don't your arrows on race and elm go the wrong way?

yes, but I believe the guy who did the map is now in london

cuf: qualls crowley cranley cole

clifton: qualls crowley cranley thomas

 

Ok, so here's my question: If John Cranley is the principal champion for including Uptown in the first phase of the streetcar, how come he placed third in the Uptown voting? Just asking.

 

I don't know what this means, I am just giving raw data here. 

 

Cranley was top vote getter in

Ward 14- K. Heights PRidge

Ward 20- Price Hill

Ward 21- South Fairmont

Ward 25- Covedale

Ward 26- Westwood

 

we have 26 wards

 

I was told to ask this question of John Schneider on another site. What will the top speed of the streetcars be, what is the average speed? thanx

Ok, so here's my question: If John Cranley is the principal champion for including Uptown in the first phase of the streetcar, how come he placed third in the Uptown voting? Just asking.

 

I'm not sure if this question was supposed to be rhetorical.  I think Cranley's position is clear: he's hedging.  He wants to be seen as an advocate of the streetcar without risking his image of being fiscally responsible or his supposed appeal to west side voters.  So he makes an absurd quibble that has the appearance of reasonability.  If the question is why don't "Uptown" voters view Cranley as their champion, it is either because they don't see the Clifton link of a streetcar as first priority, or don't view Cranley's positions on things as representative of theirs.  Their votes for Qualls and Crowley demonstrate an unsurprising "liberal" tilt to those voters.

 

This election was an endorsement of Mallory's handling of council.  Crowley has never risen so far before.

I was told to ask this question of John Schneider on another site. What will the top speed of the streetcars be, what is the average speed? thanx

 

 

I dunno. The ones in Portland seem to move along with the rest of the traffic stopping for the lights and/or boarding stops about two or three blocks apart.

I was told to ask this question of John Schneider on another site. What will the top speed of the streetcars be, what is the average speed? thanx

 

Average speed for streetcars is about 15 MPH.

http://world.nycsubway.org/us/portland/streetcar.html

max speed is 43 mph, but a streetcar in mixed traffic wouldn't get up to that speed.  however if it had a fixed right of way like the oasis line it could really move.  for a comparison between streetcars and light rail go here

 

http://www.tucsontransitstudy.com/pdf/board_mod_strtcar_vs_ltrail.pdf

Can we get this sort of advertisement on television for Cinci's streetcar?

 

[youtube=425,350]EOZc3M8A0ps

Is city council set to vote on the light rail sometime soon?  Just curious as to the latest on this project.

The city website just updated its streetcar documents.  They are all available here

 

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/pages/-17762-/

 

Is city council set to vote on the light rail sometime soon?  Just curious as to the latest on this project.

 

Do you mean the Cincinnati Streetcar? Looks like mid-January at this point. A lot of details to pull together.

I took a Cincinnati Enquirer reporter along on our streetcar tour of Portland last month, and I understand an article about the trip will appear in this Sunday's paper.

^Nice. Like Jane Jacobs said, vibrant street life (the street car element being applicable here) is something people need to experience themselves to really understand its greatness. Keep fighting the good fight!

Call me "debby downer" but I'm starting to get mixed emotions about the streecar project.  I guess my biggest worry is that it won't be as successfull as everyone thinks it's going to be.  Cincinnati's streetcar keeps being compared to Portlands, but after reading more about Portlands it's no wonder it's so successfull in that city.  Portland has a University and Hospital right downtown so that alone is going to create TONS of riders.  I'm just trying to think of the different scenario's that people would use it in cincinnati and I just don't see it being heavly used, esp. after the novality wears off.  I can see it being used heavly during reds games for transporting people from the games to their cars, but we don't have games everyday.

Now on the flip side of that, when I look at the "future expansions" of the streetcar that expand over into KY and UC that I think will be successfull.  I think a streetcar line that runs from the CBD to both UC and KY(newport) would be more heavily used then from banks to findley market.

I just read the streetcar documents on the City's website.  In the budget, they included 5 traffic coordination devices, which would give streetcars priority on traffic signals.  I thought I read on this board that the our traffic engineers would not allow that.  It looks like they are considering it on several of the intersections.

I just read the streetcar documents on the City's website.  In the budget, they included 5 traffic coordination devices, which would give streetcars priority on traffic signals.  I thought I read on this board that the our traffic engineers would not allow that.  It looks like they are considering it on several of the intersections.

 

I think people just thought that it would be a point of conflict...its good to see that things are looking up on this front.

 

Call me "debby downer" but I'm starting to get mixed emotions about the streecar project.  I guess my biggest worry is that it won't be as successfull as everyone thinks it's going to be.  Cincinnati's streetcar keeps being compared to Portlands, but after reading more about Portlands it's no wonder it's so successfull in that city.  Portland has a University and Hospital right downtown so that alone is going to create TONS of riders.  I'm just trying to think of the different scenario's that people would use it in cincinnati and I just don't see it being heavly used, esp. after the novality wears off.  I can see it being used heavly during reds games for transporting people from the games to their cars, but we don't have games everyday.

 

Now on the flip side of that, when I look at the "future expansions" of the streetcar that expand over into KY and UC that I think will be successfull.  I think a streetcar line that runs from the CBD to both UC and KY(newport) would be more heavily used then from banks to findley market.

 

You've got to start somewhere...they didn't build Rome in a day.

That is true that you have to start somewhere.  Don't get me wrong, I think the streetcar will be an improvement, I just foresee all the "naysayers" causing a ruckus when the streetcars aren't as big as a success as portlands.  I can see the streetcars in their first implementation being as successfull as the ones in Tampa, Wisconsin, Little Rock, etc...

even if we fall short of portland which I don't forsee its still a win unless we do 15 times worse then it would break even. I highly doubt we will have 15 times less return investment than portland...obviously not likely lol.  the real estate investment of 15 to 1 alone creates long term economic investment. if anything ours could do better. over the rhine has alot of architecture worth saving and the city as well as its people see the value in this, couple that with a streetcar and the banks and central business district, court house, music hall, findlay market, etc and we get cheap investment in otr for big returns and a complete revitilization. that leads to condo investment once things start on the upswing and since condos and apartment renting and renovation-resell are two alternative ways to benefit from real estate during this exsisting housing market crisis more people will be willing to go that route.  population soars and more people ride the streetcar everyday to get to work and such. its about economic distribution and getting rid of "bad" parts of the city which in turn creates then even more investment. cincinnati with its ghetto-rich area-ghetto-rich area layout is perfect for  a streetcar. especially once the extension lines are installed to union terminal (possible area project going on there btw), UC (huge and VERY quickly growing student population), eastern ave. ( all those projects being built...need I say more?), and northern kentucky (who think they are a seperate cities when they are so cincinnatian)

Streetcar to union terminal would be awesome!  It's a shame that if you visiting downtown you almost have to drive a car to get to union terminal.

I think the line to UT, though interesting, is far less important than several others. Take the 1, it'll get you there from downtown in 5 minutes.

 

Unless, of course, UT is the site of high speed rail connection. At which point, it's a no brainer.

I agree that the Portland model is a tad bit optimistic.  But I sure don't think it will be a failure.  I live near Kenosha, WI, which is basically a model for sprawl.  They built a 1.7 mile light rail loop that essentially went nowhere.  And while I though it was a ridiculous waste of money at the time, 5 years later the change is astronomic.  Kenosha's denser urban residential population was created by the streetcar, not for it.  I only wish I had before and after pictures to back that up.  My point is that, these systems seem to be a win-win situation no matter where they're built. 

That is true that you have to start somewhere.  Don't get me wrong, I think the streetcar will be an improvement, I just foresee all the "naysayers" causing a ruckus when the streetcars aren't as big as a success as portlands.  I can see the streetcars in their first implementation being as successfull as the ones in Tampa, Wisconsin, Little Rock, etc...

 

While Portland has been used as a case study for the Cincinnati streetcar effort, no one has projected that we will experience the same results as Portland.  The feasibility study has concluded that we will see a smaller impact than Portland and have a little less in terms of ridership.  This is primarily due to the fact that Portland's streetcar system is part of a much larger rail transit system.

 

At the same time, the feasibility study has also concluded that we will see greater impacts than the places you mentioned (Little Rock, Kenosha, Tampa Bay).  These are case studies not models...it is important to note the difference.  Each city will experience different results based on their micro-conditions...so it is flawed to say that we will see the same results as City A or City B.  But it is fair to use those other cities as base points of which to analyze your own conditions.  A quick example is that Portland and Cincinnati have nearly identical population sizes and densities...so from a transit viability standpoint one could conclude that both cities could handle similarly sized systems.  Obviously there is a difference in mindset from the Pacific NW and the Midwest, and that can be seen in the difference of numbers.

Yeah, it would be best if it went from one major node to another. Findlay Market makes sense because there's a large concentration of activity and it's very practical since it's..well..a market.

Here's an example of the new residential population created by the Kenosha Streetcar:

 

Kenosha's denser urban residential population was created by the streetcar, not for it.  I only wish I had before and after pictures to back that up.  My point is that, these systems seem to be a win-win situation no matter where they're built.

 

Here is a slide from the Cincinnati Streetcar powerpoint presentation:

Yeah, it would be best if it went from one major node to another. Findlay Market makes sense because there's a large concentration of activity and it's very practical since it's..well..a market.

 

That portion of OTR also represents a lot more than just Findlay Market.  The collection of buildings up there (ie the Brewery District and such) offers an opportunity for a MASSIVE amount of residential units.  These are very large structures and could make this end (of phase 1) essentially the residential base that could serve the CBD.  Currently the large companies Downtown direct out of town people (relocating here) to other parts of the region.  If OTR becomes more desirable then maybe the next time P&G is trying to attract people to relocate here from Boston then more would come here over staying in Bean Town.

 

Bottom line is that it is much more than The Banks - Findlay Market route that has been pitched by the media.  This is really more of a SE Downtown - NW OTR route than anything...it could really change the dynamics of the basin around - even without the mentioned extensions.

That yellow and green PCC is very close to the old Cincinnati livery.

I was just refering to how it stops there. The inherent new development around that area is a no-brainer :) Anyone know the current status of the brewery district? I haven't seen any new news regarding its progress (or even lack of progress).

^david,

http://www.otrbrewerydistrict.org/

 

 

That yellow and green PCC is very close to the old Cincinnati livery.

I think it is.  Kenosha runs five vintage cars, one of which is a vintage Cincinnati car.

on the website it is called the cincinnati car

 

^david,

http://www.otrbrewerydistrict.org/

 

 

Ah, they have a website. Thanks!

 

 

Is the manufacturer in Czechoslovakia really the only option (or best one) for American cities? It's unfortunate that the euro is so damn expensive. Hopefully the US will have negotiated with the Euro Central Bank to bring their value down and help their exports while helping our imports.

Call me "debby downer" but I'm starting to get mixed emotions about the streecar project... Portland has a University and Hospital right downtown so that alone is going to create TONS of riders. 

 

Uum, there is no hospital in downtown Portland. The closest is a couple of miles away, like, say, Christ Hospital here. Portland has no Fortune 500 headquarters companies; Cincinnati has half a dozen. Portland has no major league sports facilities downtown; Cincinnati has two. Portland has very few historic properties along its streetcar line; Cincinnati has one of the largest historic districts in the nation. Portland has no public market: Cincinnati has the oldest west of the Alleghenies.

 

Friends of mine who live in Portland and who've visited Cincinnati would be happy to tell you that Cincinnati has much more to work with than Portland had when it opened the streetcar.

even if we fall short of portland which I don't forsee its still a win unless we do 15 times worse then it would break even. I highly doubt we will have 15 times less return investment than portland...obviously not likely lol.  the real estate investment of 15 to 1 alone creates long term economic investment. if anything ours could do better. over the rhine has alot of architecture worth saving and the city as well as its people see the value in this, couple that with a streetcar and the banks and central business district, court house, music hall, findlay market, etc and we get cheap investment in otr for big returns and a complete revitilization. that leads to condo investment once things start on the upswing and since condos and apartment renting and renovation-resell are two alternative ways to benefit from real estate during this exsisting housing market crisis more people will be willing to go that route.  population soars and more people ride the streetcar everyday to get to work and such. its about economic distribution and getting rid of "bad" parts of the city which in turn creates then even more investment. cincinnati with its ghetto-rich area-ghetto-rich area layout is perfect for  a streetcar. especially once the extension lines are installed to union terminal (possible area project going on there btw), UC (huge and VERY quickly growing student population), eastern ave. ( all those projects being built...need I say more?), and northern kentucky (who think they are a seperate cities when they are so cincinnatian)

I agree that the Portland model is a tad bit optimistic.  But I sure don't think it will be a failure.  I live near Kenosha, WI, which is basically a model for sprawl.  They built a 1.7 mile light rail loop that essentially went nowhere.  And while I though it was a ridiculous waste of money at the time, 5 years later the change is astronomic.  Kenosha's denser urban residential population was created by the streetcar, not for it.  I only wish I had before and after pictures to back that up.  My point is that, these systems seem to be a win-win situation no matter where they're built. 

 

this is a totally correct way to look at it. Cincinnati's projections were heavily discounted relative to Portland's experience. For instance, Portland achieved a 30:1 economic impact in six years. Cincinnati is projecting a 15:1 economic impact in twenty years.

 

And here's the most important point. Portland has had light rail for twenty years, so people who want to live along a rail line have had many options for a long time. So, at the margin, the streetcar line wasn't really that much of novelty. Here, we have no rail. So for people wanting to live a non-polluting, walkable lifestyle, the streetcar will be the only game in town here, for a while. I think it will attact a whole new demographic to our city.

Call me "debby downer" but I'm starting to get mixed emotions about the streecar project... Portland has a University and Hospital right downtown so that alone is going to create TONS of riders. 

 

Uum, there is no hospital in downtown Portland. The closest is a couple of miles away, like, say, Christ Hospital here. Portland has no Fortune 500 headquarters companies; Cincinnati has half a dozen. Portland has no major league sports facilities downtown; Cincinnati has two. Portland has very few historic properties along its streetcar line; Cincinnati has one of the largest historic districts in the nation. Portland has no public market: Cincinnati has the oldest west of the Alleghenies.

 

Friends of mine who live in Portland and who've visited Cincinnati would be happy to tell you that Cincinnati has much more to work with than Portland had when it opened the streetcar.

 

Damn.

CINCINNATI -- It's almost a riddle: When does a city spend $2.6 million to maintain a subway tunnel system that's never been used?

 

The answer is: When just filling the tunnels in will cost $19 million.

 

From time to time, city officials ponder what to do with the abandoned, unfinished subway tunnels that start downtown and go north for 2.2 miles.

 

A new study, the most comprehensive analysis of the subway in decades, recommends making some repairs and maintaining the side-by-side tunnels at a cost of $2.6 million over the next five years -- a much cheaper option than reviving the subway for modern transit cars.

 

City engineers said in the study that it would cost about $100.5 million to make the tunnels usable for modern transit.

 

Just filling in the tunnels would cost about $19.6 million.

 

Either way, the city would have to spend another $14 million to relocate a 52-inch water main placed in the southbound tunnel in the 1950s, and that could require a regionwide water rate increase.

 

"We can't just continue to pour money into these," said Martha Kelly, a principal engineer for Cincinnati. "The subway is nearing the end of its 100-year design life. So we do need to make a decision on the future of rapid transit."

 

This type of thinking and reporting is infuriating to me.  What do you get when you add $100.5 million to 2.2 miles of subway tunnels?  You get whatever the current value of the subway tunnels + $100.5 million.  What do you get when you spend $19.6 million to permanently close 2.2 miles of subway tunnels?  Not a damn thing.*  That's the real equation.

 

 

*(Except perhaps you lose the difference in cost between maintaining a regular road for 2.2 miles and a 2.2 mile long bridge, if the bridge is more expensive.  Didn't thing it would sound as strong to end on this note.)

Call me "debby downer" but I'm starting to get mixed emotions about the streecar project... Portland has a University and Hospital right downtown so that alone is going to create TONS of riders.

 

Uum, there is no hospital in downtown Portland. The closest is a couple of miles away, like, say, Christ Hospital here. Portland has no Fortune 500 headquarters companies; Cincinnati has half a dozen. Portland has no major league sports facilities downtown; Cincinnati has two. Portland has very few historic properties along its streetcar line; Cincinnati has one of the largest historic districts in the nation. Portland has no public market: Cincinnati has the oldest west of the Alleghenies.

 

Friends of mine who live in Portland and who've visited Cincinnati would be happy to tell you that Cincinnati has much more to work with than Portland had when it opened the streetcar.

 

Oh Snap!  Fergie-Ferg and me love you long time...

 

No doubt the Nati has much more going for it than so many other cities.

The Mayor's YPKC drafted a resolution supporting the proposed streetcar system.  This work was done primarily through the Transportation Committee within the YPKC...and was then voted on by the YPKC Steering Committee (essentially a group of individuals that represent the interests of the larger Cabinet) - [glow=yellow,2,300]the Steering Committee passed this resolution unanimously.[/glow]

 

BTW, the Mayor also reinstated today that public transit (specifically the streetcar) is his number 1 priority of things he has on the agenda.  He said that the city NEEDS to show that it can do "big things" and do them quickly.  Needless to say, he is a major ally in this effort.

The text of the resolution:

 

 

 

 

MAYOR’S YOUNG PROFESSIONAL KITCHEN CABINET

RESOLUTION NO.1 - 2007

 

SUPPORTING the creation of a Streetcar in the City of Cincinnati, Ohio.

 

WHEREAS, mobility and economic development are critical components of a healthy city; and

 

WHEREAS, young professionals are drawn to cities with public transportation options and a vibrant street life; and

 

WHEREAS, the Cincinnati Streetcar will improve access in the urban core; and

 

WHEREAS, an economic impact study conducted by HDR indicates the Cincinnati Streetcar will have an economic impact of $1.4 billion; and

 

WHEREAS, the entire City of Cincinnati will benefit from the additional revenues resulting from the development of the Cincinnati Streetcar and extensions of the Cincinnati Streetcar that could connect the neighborhoods of Cincinnati; and

 

WHEREAS, time is of the essence, as each year of delay adds $5.1 million in inflation costs to the project; and

 

WHEREAS, the construction of the Cincinnati Streetcar will help the City of Cincinnati and the Region attract and retain greater numbers of young professionals in an increasingly diverse and lively city; now, therefore,

 

 

BE IT RESOLVED by the Mayor’s Young Professional Kitchen Cabinet of the City of Cincinnati, State of Ohio:

 

Section 1. That the Mayor’s Young Professional Kitchen Cabinet (YPKC) fully supports the creation of the modern Streetcar System in the City of Cincinnati.

Section 2.  That the YPKC urges Council to approve the funding for the Cincinnati Streetcar as soon as possible to avoid costly delays.

 

Passed________________________, 2007

 

 

 

 

________________________ ________________________

President Vice President

 

 

Attest____________________

Secretary

 

 

Submitted to Mayor Mark Mallory.