December 15, 200717 yr Letters to the editor 12/15/07 Portland 'works' by driving out poor people Regarding the article "Streetcars work for Portland" (Dec. 11): Gee, if it works for Portland, it must be good, right? Yes, it works if you are green, have cash enough to do whatever you want, and hide the fact that by driving low-income people out of the inner city you are contributing to urban sprawl and racism at the same time. Workers who clean and support the glitz of Portland used to live downtown or near it. Now, they can only afford to live 30 to 40 miles upriver and now have to commute - not via Skoda Trams - to work Ned Hamson Mount Healthy This is untrue.
December 15, 200717 yr Well, you can't deny that one of goals of building the $100m streetcar through OTR isn't to create even more low income housing. There is now a consorted effort to elevate OTR, which is long over due and can't happen soon enough. The plan to spend $14m to redo Washington Park isn't to create a nicer place for people to drink their forty ouncers Another few million to build a nifty glass enclosed garage around two historic structures isn't being built to protect DIC finest from dealing with people in suits and evening gowns. Building the SCPA and remodeling Music Hall aren't happing so someday they can be used for transitional housing. OTR should not longer be for a small segment of the population, it should be a regional draw and if all these projects pan out it will be. The city and 3CDC shouldn't have to apologized for that.
December 15, 200717 yr The refurbishment of Over-the-Rhine doesn't require moving any law-abiding residents out of the neighborhood, since so much of the neighborhood is vacant. That doesn't mean there is any political will to make sure the current residents can stay. The United States is atypical in having the majority of it's poor located in the center city. If you look at Manhattan, San Francisco, etc., (and even Cincinnati- how many people with incomes below the poverty line live downtown?) the trend seems to be that American cities will end up conforming to the style typical of the rest of the world.
December 15, 200717 yr For those who are new to this thread or totally have too much time on your hands, here are all the articles written about the Cincinnati Streetcar over the last several months. It's a good refresher course. I'm told we'll be back at City Council Finance in mid-January, say Monday January 14th. Please plan to be there. Next Portland trip is February 15th. This one will have a real estate focus. http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071211/NEWS01/712110346 Cincinnati Enquirer Tuesday, December 11, 2007 Streetcars work for Portland BY MARGARET A. MCGURK | [email protected] PORTLAND, Ore. - When boosters envision a Cincinnati streetcar line running from The Banks to Findlay Market, they pin much of their belief in the idea being an economic boon on what's happened in this Pacific Northwest city. Six years ago, Portland launched a streetcar linking rundown, underused property near downtown to the city center. There were several goals, but the most important was to jump-start development and redevelopment. It worked.
December 17, 200717 yr It would be great if the streetcar would help retain and gain more young professionals.
December 19, 200717 yr Author PORTLAND OFFERS FAR MORE FOR STREETCARS While I laud Cincinnati's efforts to make its downtown vibrant again with streetcars, I have to point out that Cincinnati is not Portland ("Streetcars work for Portland," Dec. 11). Portland has other initiatives and factors in its favor that Cincinnati does not. Portland has a vibrant and bustling downtown university whose 24,000 students and faculty depend on public transportation like the streetcars. It has hundreds of downtown restaurants, and several major museums that attract visitors day and night. Portland has more brew pubs, or so it claims, than Munich, Germany. Portland has a no-growth zone around its metro government boundaries, forcing growth and development into the city's core. As a result, it does not have a tremendous urban sprawl problem or splintered municipal governments dotting the county, like the Tristate. Portland has a light-rail system that connects various neighborhoods with its airport and bus lines. Streetcars are a start, but if Cincinnati ever hopes to imitate Portland, it needs to start working on other plans besides a cutesy streetcar line. Sue MacDonald College Hill SPEND MONEY ON SCHOOLS, NOT STREETCARS The front page of The Enquirer on Dec. 11 had two stories that got my attention, rather quickly - "Streetcars work for Portland" and "CPS wants two levies." My confusion stems from the fact that Cincinnati is even considering a streetcar line that goes 3.9 miles through Over-the-Rhine at a cost of (gulp) $100 million. That is only the beginning; there are also huge annual operating costs. The Cincinnati Public School system still needs money. I am sure they would like a share of the streetcar money. What makes anyone think that by adding a streetcar line that does not even go through the downtown area or even near the ball parks that this will bring the young, urban folks to Cincinnati? Maybe a top-ranked school system could. William L Castellini Miami Heights
December 19, 200717 yr SPEND MONEY ON SCHOOLS, NOT STREETCARS The front page of The Enquirer on Dec. 11 had two stories that got my attention, rather quickly - "Streetcars work for Portland" and "CPS wants two levies." My confusion stems from the fact that Cincinnati is even considering a streetcar line that goes 3.9 miles through Over-the-Rhine at a cost of (gulp) $100 million. That is only the beginning; there are also huge annual operating costs. The Cincinnati Public School system still needs money. I am sure they would like a share of the streetcar money. What makes anyone think that by adding a streetcar line that does not even go through the downtown area or even near the ball parks that this will bring the young, urban folks to Cincinnati? Maybe a top-ranked school system could. William L Castellini Miami Heights Why does the Enquirer even publish this crap...in no way shape or form does this person have any clue about what they're talking about. The line goes through OTR and Downtown AND will hit both stadiums and the arena. Not to mention the City of Cincinnati has ZERO control over CPS and therefore can not use their funds for CPS. Furthermore, these will be funds from the capital budget...not the operating budget, thus throwing another wrench into that whole idea.
December 19, 200717 yr "William L Castellini Miami Heights" - Three Rivers District Work on your own schools before you criticize anyone elses!!!! BILL!
December 20, 200717 yr I've made the comment as well that I thought portland had a university and hospital right downtown, as if UC and UC hospital were downtown like in OTR or something. Someone told me that I was wrong and that they aren't even close to downtown portland. Does anyone know how close the university and hospital are to actual downtown Portland?
December 20, 200717 yr I think that a big thing that people don't realize is that this first line isn't the answer, but there are secondary and tertiary phases to this plan (hopefully). They think that it is merely going to link a "drug infested OTR with a dead downtown". These people obviously by their statements are not visionaries. They see Cincy for what it is at its worst not what it could be at its best. This city has become overwhelmed with pessimism, but is on the brink of changing a lot of outlooks for a lot of people. Between The Banks, the OTR revitalization, the street car, QSII, and many other projects on the docket and more on the way, this city is going to be a dynamic city, and those who believe now and invest now will reap all the benefits. So for all the people who badmouth our fair city, i have a few choice words for them, and most of them consist only of four letters.
December 20, 200717 yr If the first line isn't the answer, but rather the secondary and tertiary phases are the key....why not build the secondary lines going from UC to downtown and northern KY to downtown first, then build the line downtown once the foot traffic downtown has increased dramatically.
December 20, 200717 yr NKY is not a part of this at the moment. To connect UC to downtown, you have to go through OTR.
December 20, 200717 yr The United States is atypical in having the majority of it's poor located in the center city. If you look at Manhattan, San Francisco, etc., (and even Cincinnati- how many people with incomes below the poverty line live downtown?) since you asked the answer for lower manhattan is that 13% to 25% of the residents live below the poverty level. it varys by neighborhood. that's not likely to change much. the ny city rate as a whole is 21%. for comparison: cleveland's as a whole is around 35%. i think cinci's is around 25%, no?
December 20, 200717 yr If the first line isn't the answer, but rather the secondary and tertiary phases are the key....why not build the secondary lines going from UC to downtown and northern KY to downtown first, then build the line downtown once the foot traffic downtown has increased dramatically. I think he means that the first line by itself isn't the answer, whereas most people seem to think it is the only thing being planned. The key is that it is a baby step in the process of getting citywide or even regional rail. This line in particular is extremely important, not simply because it is first, but because it links up a major employment sector with a rundown housing sector with a bad image and limitless potential. That makes the CBD-OTR loop much more critical than a connection to UC/Clifton or Newport/Covington, because it will get more people to actually live in OTR and the CBD, which is what will increase the foot traffic the most. As much as I desperately want that rumored NKY line, I guess I'll have to wait my turn on this one.
December 20, 200717 yr Author each line can stand on its own, but the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. CBD/OTR is about spurring development, CBD/CUF is about moving people, CBD/NKY is about connecting attractions.
December 20, 200717 yr ^ This gets overlooked a lot, but Newport and Covington have large populations and great housing stock of their own. So I'd argue that the NKY line is about more than just connecting attractions, though that is probably the major part of its appeal. I don't disagree with your main point, just pointing out that there is a lot more to NKY than Newport On The Levee and Main Strasse.
December 20, 200717 yr Author No argument here, it all depends on how far the line is extended into newport.
December 20, 200717 yr If the first line isn't the answer, but rather the secondary and tertiary phases are the key....why not build the secondary lines going from UC to downtown and northern KY to downtown first, then build the line downtown once the foot traffic downtown has increased dramatically. I think he means that the first line by itself isn't the answer, whereas most people seem to think it is the only thing being planned. Yeah that was my point that all the people who think that this is a huge waste of money and this line will simply become unused public investment, don't understand that this is simply the beginning. I do agree that this is the most important phase of the streetcar because it will change the image of downtown and OTR drastically not only within the metro area, but all over this will make people view us as a much more progressive city. As a soon to be YP these are the kind of things I look for when choosing a city, and in talking to my friends and telling them about the things happening in the city like this, you can really see their thoughts change on investing in areas like OTR. This transit line can't happen soon enough (except I'd like to invest before it does) for the revitalization of OTR and the CBD.
December 20, 200717 yr Author ^Write a letter to the enquirer saying exactly that [email protected] Publication Guidelines Please include your name, address (including community) and day phone. Limit letters to 100 words. All letters may be edited for space and clarity. Longer letters may be considered for other features on the Editorial Page, Opinions Page or in Sunday Forum. Letters, opinion and editorial columns, and articles submitted to The Enquirer, may be published or distributed in print, electronic or other forms.
December 20, 200717 yr In SimCity, sure...we could go ahead and build a full-blown system right from the get go. But you know what happens when you propose building a comprehensive system that costs a lot of money - tax dollars then need to get involved, and we all saw how that worked out with the MetroMoves plan a few years back. The SE Downtown - NW OTR route is perfectly self-sufficient on its own. However, it would be much greater to have connections to a 35,000 student university, massive job base, research facilities, and connections to people who are apt to ride streetcars and not buses per se. The connection over to Nky will essentially work it self out to be an extension of the Downtown leg in my opinion. You have some solid attractions in Nky plus a dense population base. That bodes well for any kind of transit system, and especially a streetcar. If we build this first manageable leg, trust me...it won't take long to get the other two legs going. Nky interests are already drooling over the possibility of a streetcar system that connects their attractions and hotels to attractions and hotels in Downtown Cincy (a rising tide floats all boats in this sense). UC's president Nancy Zimpfer has already expressed a lot of interest in having the university connected into the streetcar route, and it seems to fit in perfectly with the goals outlined in UC|21. You could potentially see these two extensions happen simultaneously if the financing is right. I don't think it is too far of a stretch to think that Nky would be willing to pay a large portion of the route costs, and I also don't think it's a stretch to think that UC and the hospitals would be willing to pony up a significant amount of money to do that phase. Ultimately that is what needs to be accomplished with phase 1...sell the streetcar system to the private entities and public as a whole, then you'll see lighting strike and this thing will really take off.
December 20, 200717 yr Bottom line - this needs to happen and needs to happen before more YPs leave and ruin the city's future.
December 20, 200717 yr As a soon to be YP these are the kind of things I look for when choosing a city, and in talking to my friends and telling them about the things happening in the city like this, you can really see their thoughts change on investing in areas like OTR. This transit line can't happen soon enough (except I'd like to invest before it does) for the revitalization of OTR and the CBD. It's true...when I talk to other young people about this they seem to be excited, but then they immediately follow it up with "is it really going to happen?" The same can be said for The Banks, QCS II, FS, etc...YPs are attracted to and want to live in places that are dynamic and are exciting. While QCS II is just a skyscraper that will have offices inside...it also provides "excitement" for the city. The same is true for The Banks, FS, most definitely the streetcar. Currently people don't think these things can happen here...well they are being proven wrong on almost a daily basis. QCS II is going up, FS is finished, The Banks is going to happen, lots of new restaurants/bars/clubs are opening Downtown, and the streetcar can/will happen. There is becoming much less for the naysayers to point to nowadays...and much more for those that are positive about the city.
December 20, 200717 yr Author a spur from the end of the first phase to newport, up to 5th (newport) around that lot with the bell, and back to ohio would be about two miles
December 20, 200717 yr SPEND MONEY ON SCHOOLS, NOT STREETCARS The front page of The Enquirer on Dec. 11 had two stories that got my attention, rather quickly - "Streetcars work for Portland" and "CPS wants two levies." My confusion stems from the fact that Cincinnati is even considering a streetcar line that goes 3.9 miles through Over-the-Rhine at a cost of (gulp) $100 million. That is only the beginning; there are also huge annual operating costs. The Cincinnati Public School system still needs money. I am sure they would like a share of the streetcar money. What makes anyone think that by adding a streetcar line that does not even go through the downtown area or even near the ball parks that this will bring the young, urban folks to Cincinnati? Maybe a top-ranked school system could. William L Castellini Miami Heights Most target YPs are single without children. They aren't even thinking about kids yet. A "top ranked school system" would just scare them off because the area would attract too many families. YPs desire bars, upscale restaurants, walkable neighborhoods and exciting street life, not Discovery Zone, Chuck E. Cheese and Applebee's. People like this guy are the reason for sprawl and YPs leaving the city. I can also tell this guy knows nothing about money and how public entities obtain money. He thinks there's one big account for everything!
December 20, 200717 yr I can also tell this guy knows nothing about money and how public entities obtain money. He thinks there's one big account for everything! This is probably the biggest problem the average citizen has in understanding how government works.
December 20, 200717 yr a spur from the end of the first phase to newport, up to 5th (newport) around that lot with the bell, and back to ohio would be about two miles I'm not sure what route (if any) they're planning on, but I'd hate to see that goofy bell structure and ajoining surface lot as the anchor on the newport side.
December 20, 200717 yr Seattle just began operation of a modern streetcar line, it runs identical equipment to Portland: Also, the light rail line is close to opening. As is pointed out in this video, the Seattle light rail project has been a battle. Nothing in Cincinnati would be as complicated was what they faced there. This light rail line is more or less functions as heavy rail line with almost but not total grade separation. Conversion of the bus tunnel to sever both light rail and buses has been a mess:
December 20, 200717 yr Realistically, any addition streetcar lines would be a least a few years away, right? I've forgotten when the current line would be finished. Also, wouldn't federal funding be involved, which takes time, in the newer lines? Granted, all I know and see about streetcars, I've learned on this forum. I'm sure someone will set me straight.
December 20, 200717 yr a spur from the end of the first phase to newport, up to 5th (newport) around that lot with the bell, and back to ohio would be about two miles I'm not sure what route (if any) they're planning on, but I'd hate to see that goofy bell structure and ajoining surface lot as the anchor on the newport side. In Nky you would almost certainly have a E/W orientation as opposed to the N/S orientation on the Cincinnati side. Therefore you could run the streetcar along 3rd Street heading east and then run it W along 5th. To get over to Covington there would have to be some sort of crossing over the Licking River and that could possibly be done on the 4th Street bridge, but that would make it more difficult because I don't think that bridge could handle a line in each direction. That would leave either a shared track option (not ideal) or the need for a new crossing (which has been tossed around before).
December 20, 200717 yr Realistically, any addition streetcar lines would be a least a few years away, right? I've forgotten when the current line would be finished. Also, wouldn't federal funding be involved, which takes time, in the newer lines? Granted, all I know and see about streetcars, I've learned on this forum. I'm sure someone will set me straight. The first phase is on a time line for riders in the 4Q of 2010...you could begin the funding and study phases of additional routes as the first route is under construction. Therefore allowing for a quicker completion of additional routes. I don't think it is all too unrealistic to say that an extension could be completed with 2 years of the completion of phase 1.
December 20, 200717 yr a spur from the end of the first phase to newport, up to 5th (newport) around that lot with the bell, and back to ohio would be about two miles I'm not sure what route (if any) they're planning on, but I'd hate to see that goofy bell structure and ajoining surface lot as the anchor on the newport side. In Nky you would almost certainly have a E/W orientation as opposed to the N/S orientation on the Cincinnati side. Therefore you could run the streetcar along 3rd Street heading east and then run it W along 5th. To get over to Covington there would have to be some sort of crossing over the Licking River and that could possibly be done on the 4th Street bridge, but that would make it more difficult because I don't think that bridge could handle a line in each direction. That would leave either a shared track option (not ideal) or the need for a new crossing (which has been tossed around before). Having a new bridge over the Licking around 7th or 8th street would certainly help fuel development in the dead zone that is the west side of Newport. I think you've definitely hit on the ideal route, but I'm not sure to what degree adding that much-needed bridge would increase the cost of the project (potentially jeopardizing it). Also, it would be interesting to see how this would affect the looming KY-9 redesign. Just out of curiosity, which bridge(s) would connect the NKY phase to the Phase 1 loop? I only found out recently that the Suspension Bridge used to have streetcar crossings, so that may be an option, but they don't want buses using it now because of the added weight so I don't know if they'd allow streetcars anymore. I also like the idea of using the unfinished half of the Purple People Bridge; it's just not centrally located enough unless you do a full loop, which would be a lot of extra track. Anyone have any thoughts or actual information on bridge choice?
January 2, 200817 yr I'm really getting tired of the argument that the streetcar won't bring people downtown. Who cares, lets build it for the people already here. And for the convention people and the people in town for ball games. The people complaining about the streetcar are using all the same arguments they used against rebuilding Fountain Square, and look how far off all their predictions were. As for the Kentucky loop if it gets built, I think it would be a no-brainer to cross the Purple People Bridge to Newport on the Levy. But if Ovation gets built then there would be a good case for the Taylor Southgate Bridge.
January 2, 200817 yr Hi all, first post here. I've been lurking for a long time to follow the discussion on QCS and the streetcar system. I have to say that as someone who grew up in the counties surrounding Cincy and didn't get into town all that often, I see the benefits of a street car system. While I wish Cincinnati would have built the Light Rail system, I think streetcars are a good first step. For tourists, it would be nice to park in the city and ride to the ballpark or stadium/banks. I spent time in San Diego this summer and used their trolley system exclusively and I loved it. Cincinnati needs this.
January 2, 200817 yr Author also on the editorial page STREETCAR LOOP ESSENTIAL FOR CITY'S FUTURE We are facing a critical point in future development of this city. Our choice is to continue to lose population, erode our tax base and watch our inner city decay or we can decide to move forward. The initial loop of the downtown streetcar will create immediate residential and retail development in the core of the city. Both young professionals and empty-nesters enjoy living in the core area of major cities like Boston, Portland, Washington for example. Young people seeking a career will choose a vibrant socially active and safe city to live and work.We must have the foresight to embrace the future. We must not be sidetracked by those who are not interested in longterm successful economic development of the area. I live and work Downtown by choice. I remember when it was a vibrant thriving center for commerce and entertainment. I know we can again be a safe and attractive place to live,work and play. It will take leadership from business and elected officials. We are close, let's not watch another opportunity pass us by. Get on board the Cincinnati streetcar. Sean Donovan Downtown Isn't Sean Donovan the Assistant Sheriff?
January 2, 200817 yr Sean Donovan is Chief Deputy to Si Leis. Lives with his wife and child on West Court Street and owns City Cellars at Ninth and Race.
January 2, 200817 yr The problem is that most people don't even consider living "in" the city. I can't imagine living outside of the basin not even north of the Lateral! :-o Excuse me for being a lazy post reader but when is the next big day in the timeline? Also be sure and email council if you haven't yet.
January 3, 200817 yr Now comes Peter Bronson -- the blind, leading the blind ... Bad ideas: Red-light cameras, streetcars Have you heard about the terrorist plot to bring Cincinnati to its knees by tearing up the streets, blocking traffic and rigging stoplights to cause crashes? Oh, wait - that's not terrorists. That's City Council. Council members and the city manager want to install red-light cameras and spend $100 million on a four-mile line for street cars. They say the cameras will make us safer, and the street cars will resurrect Over-the-Rhine. If you buy that, I hear they also have a few bridges for sale.
January 3, 200817 yr The senior fellow for the libertarian Cato Institute is author of "The Best-Laid Plans: How Government Planning Harms Your Quality of Life, Your Pocketbook and Your Future." Looks like another case for someone who wants to write and sell a book to make some money.
January 3, 200817 yr I can't believe that he is quoting one of the most well known opponents to transit in his article. Going to a Libertarian and asking them what they think about a project like this would be like going to a member of the Green party and asking them what they think of a proposed highway expansion or new suburban development. Can we get something a little more middle of the road please...what a sensational piece of trash that article is.
January 3, 200817 yr Its like any other issue, you can always find someone who while staring at the headlights denies the train is about to run him down.
January 3, 200817 yr Author I think someone needs to write a 300 word ""Your Voice" Article called Debunking Bronson this might give the author some ammo http://www.cnu.org/sites/files/DebunkingCato.pdf
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