January 5, 200817 yr ^---that's more for tourism though, isn't it? I can't see a 10,000 populated town being congested enough to need a light rail. What is the number of tourists they get per year?
January 6, 200817 yr Could that be because west siders knew that the light rail was never going to make it to the west side? Well Green Twp recently pushed for a ban of Metro buses in the proposed Legacy Place development. They essentially said they didn't want the same problems that Western Hills Plaza has. I'll leave it up to you to decide what those problems are. Western Hamilton County is one of the most conservative areas in the metro and even state...I bet they didn't want the increase in taxes and others didn't want the perceived problems of mass transit.
January 6, 200817 yr As I understand it the Green Twp commissioners are a bunch of crooks. There are many rumors of kickbacks circulating regarding the extremely shady Legacy Place deal. Many of the same families have been running things in that area for generations. The #33 as well as the rest of the west side bus routes have very high ridership, I was unable to find the stats but off the top of my head I think the #33 alone has 9,000 daily riders, or roughly 18,000 trips. The older parts of the west side has a good variety of routes and frequency but the newer parts, despite terrible interstate access, seem to have no interest in better service.
January 6, 200817 yr ^---that's more for tourism though, isn't it? I can't see a 10,000 populated town being congested enough to need a light rail. What is the number of tourists they get per year? Dunno. But Astoria isn't much of a tourist mecca. Parkersburg WV comes to mind in comparison.
January 6, 200817 yr Hamilton County voted down light rail...voters within the City of Cincinnati actually supported the initiative I believe 2:1. It was in the other areas of Hamilton County where the initiative went down in flames...primarily in the western portions of the county (ie Green Twp, Delhi Twp, Harrison, Miami Twp). There's no way the combined voting patterns of Green, Delhi, Harrison and Miami Townships brought down anything in Hamilton County. There's not enough people out in those boroughs to do it. The MetroMoves plan failed at something like 60% against, 40% in favor. If the City voted 2 to 1 in favor, than the northern suburbs would have had to have voted overwhelmingly against it, since that's probably where a third to one half of the county's population is.
January 6, 200817 yr ^It won in the triangle bounded by I-71, I-75 and the Norwood Lateral, but lost in the city overall. The west side was heaviliy against it, 6-1 in some jurisdictions. Anderson voted heavily against it. It was closer in the northern suburbs. Mariemont, Wyoming, Lincoln Heights
January 6, 200817 yr They voted against it mainly because it wasn't going to go through their area of town and of course the stadium issues.
January 6, 200817 yr To be quite frank about it, the Delhi and Green Township areas do not want better access for the criminal element to come to Delhi and Green Township, and the trustees openly admit that. They are officially opposed to new bus service in Green Township.
January 6, 200817 yr Good thing crooks don't know how to steal cars to get out to the suburbs and "trade up" for nicer stolen cars.... I still have yet to see a crook with a stolen television or stereo waiting at a bus stop. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 6, 200817 yr Is there actually any data supporting that it brings in the criminal element? It seems to be a popular concern. I haven't been all around the U.S. but I've definitely seen areas where mass transit and sidewalks have benefited suburban areas, not contributed to their demise.
January 6, 200817 yr Well, if you map crime and public transportation, there is a correlation. However, it may just be a reflection of overall density or income levels. I have never personally seen any crime on any public transportation, but I have seen some rowdy people, most of them teenagers coming home from school, and some mental cases. The fact that there is graffiti on the bus seats and on bus shelters does not leave a good impression.
January 6, 200817 yr "There's no way the combined voting patterns of Green, Delhi, Harrison and Miami Townships brought down anything in Hamilton County." 2000 Census population Green Township 55,860 Delhi Township 30,104 Harrison Township 4,982 Miami Township 9,093 total 230,039 Hamilton County total 845,303 West Side percent 27% Adding Colerain Township, Crosby Township, Cleves, North Bend, City of Harrison, Cheviot, and parts of western City of Cincinnati would increase the percentage. So, no, the West Side does not have the votes to throw an election, but it's not insignificant, either.
January 7, 200817 yr ^If you add in Colerain Twp that's another 50,000+ without any of those other jurisdictions...bumping that total just about even with the City of Cincinnati. I don't see how you can discount the non-incorporated westside communities. That is a large chunk of the population no matter how you look at it.
January 7, 200817 yr >Well, if you map crime and public transportation, there is a correlation. However, it may just be a reflection of overall density or income levels. When the highways were being proposed, people feared that they would allow for fast and anonymous getaways by burglars and other criminals. We now have entire TV shows, airing daily, dedicated to dramatic police chases. Helicoptor footage of highway police chases break into regular programing in LA. And of course virtually all illegal drugs that circulate within the country do so on the roads. I fear the personal injury and monetary damage of hitting a deer much more than getting mugged on the bus. A shiner and $32 in cash is a lot less than a broken nose, a cut-up forehead, whiplash, and $500 in body work, a new air bag, and a new paint job.
January 7, 200817 yr "There's no way the combined voting patterns of Green, Delhi, Harrison and Miami Townships brought down anything in Hamilton County." 2000 Census population Green Township 55,860 Delhi Township 30,104 Harrison Township 4,982 Miami Township 9,093 total 230,039 Hamilton County total 845,303 West Side percent 27% Adding Colerain Township, Crosby Township, Cleves, North Bend, City of Harrison, Cheviot, and parts of western City of Cincinnati would increase the percentage. So, no, the West Side does not have the votes to throw an election, but it's not insignificant, either. Sorry, I'm confused. Those four figures only add up to 98,000 people. What am I missing?
January 7, 200817 yr ^If you add in Colerain Twp that's another 50,000+ without any of those other jurisdictions...bumping that total just about even with the City of Cincinnati. I don't see how you can discount the non-incorporated westside communities. That is a large chunk of the population no matter how you look at it. I was going by your original statement, which was: It was in the other areas of Hamilton County where the initiative went down in flames...primarily in the western portions of the county (ie Green Twp, Delhi Twp, Harrison, Miami Twp). If you add the most populous township in Hamilton County (Colerain) it's going to make a difference. You can argue whether Colerain is 'west' or 'north', but whatever. >Well, if you map crime and public transportation, there is a correlation. However, it may just be a reflection of overall density or income levels. I'm not sure how they make these kinds of correlations. Clearly New York City has the most amount of public transit in the country, and it also currently has the lowest crime-rate per capita. When the highways were being proposed, people feared that they would allow for fast and anonymous getaways by burglars and other criminals. We now have entire TV shows, airing daily, dedicated to dramatic police chases. Helicoptor footage of highway police chases break into regular programing in LA. And of course virtually all illegal drugs that circulate within the country do so on the roads. Those famous bank robbers in the 20s & 30s (Pretty Boy Floyd, Baby Face Nelson, Doc & Ma Barker, Bonnie & Clyde, etc.) were able to pull off the heists they did almost entirely due to the new cars with faster engines that were first available then. One of them even wrote Henry Ford a note, telling him that he preferred using Fords. It had some pretty bad spelling.
January 7, 200817 yr These population total for the West Side provided previously in this thread appears to be incorrect. Hamilton County census data and estimates can be found on the Hamilton County RPC census data page. Here are some pertinent numbers to this discussion, based on 2000 Census Data. Please note that the city data is gleaned from a report provided by the RPC and may overlap or be incomplete. Jurisdiction / Neighborhood 2000 Est Colerain Township 60144 Green Township 55660 Delhi Township 30104 Crosby Township 2748 Whitewater Township 5564 Miami Township 9093 Addyston Village 1010 Cleves Village 2790 North Bend Village 603 Cheviot City 9015 Harrison Township 7487 Harrison City 4982 West Side Totals (excluding Cincinnati) 189200 Sedamsville / Riverside 2223 Riverside / Saylor Park 1301 Saylor Park 3384 West Price Hill 18159 Westwood 36056 City West Side Total 61123 West Side Total 250323 Hamilton County Population 845303 West Side Percentage (Excluding Cincinnati) 22.38% West Side Percentage (Including Cincinnati) 29.61% The truth of the matter that the west side was not the sole reason the Light Rail Initiative failed. Certainly, more jurisdictions than just those in Western Hamilton county would have to vote to defeat the light rail ballot. 2008 is a different year from 2002. Gas is significantly more expensive, and probably will remain on a permanent upswing. There is a point where I believe that people will realize that mass transit is an excellent idea. People like us need to break perceptions about mass transit. The streetcar is a great start, and its success (and it will be successful if built) will do wonders to break perceptions about mass transit. Streetcars were hugely successful prior to their tragic running into the ground, now, the City of Cincinnati has the potential to help make streetcars great again.
January 7, 200817 yr Can someone tell me why a bus taking this same route can't produce the same economic activity? I remember when Cincinnati had the downtowner. It cost 10 cents. It took a route around downtown but i don't think any economic activity happend along it's route. Trust me im for the Streetcar but just wondering.
January 7, 200817 yr There is a point where I believe that people will realize that mass transit is an excellent idea. People like us need to break perceptions about mass transit. The streetcar is a great start, and its success (and it will be successful if built) will do wonders to break perceptions about mass transit. Streetcars were hugely successful prior to their tragic running into the ground, now, the City of Cincinnati has the potential to help make streetcars great again. "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer German philosopher (1788 - 1860)
January 7, 200817 yr Can someone tell me why a bus taking this same route can't produce the same economic activity? I remember when Cincinnati had the downtowner. It cost 10 cents. It took a route around downtown but i don't think any economic activity happend along it's route. Trust me im for the Streetcar but just wondering. From what I understand the reason is that bus routes change. Just ask the business owner who had a steady stream of customers coming from a bus stop and then bam, just like that the bus route changes and the customers stop. A streetcar is a permanent fixture in the street and can't be moved\changed all that easily. So in conclusion, a streetcar is perminate where a bus route is not.
January 7, 200817 yr ^Also, no electric rail system that has opened for business since the end of WWII has ever gone out of business. And, the rails embedded in parallel streets provide visual cues that if you wait there, a train will come along, and if you walk a block away, you can find your return route. It requires very little knowledge to figure it out. And lenders will underwrite loans on real estate located near fixed guideway transit under criteria that assume that residents will have more disposable income and that the parking burden on office workers will be less severe. Then too, rail transit is just a nicer experience -- more car-competitive.
January 7, 200817 yr 2008 is a different year from 2002. Gas is significantly more expensive, and probably will remain on a permanent upswing. There is a point where I believe that people will realize that mass transit is an excellent idea. People like us need to break perceptions about mass transit. The streetcar is a great start, and its success (and it will be successful if built) will do wonders to break perceptions about mass transit. Streetcars were hugely successful prior to their tragic running into the ground, now, the City of Cincinnati has the potential to help make streetcars great again. It's also important to note that the city of Cincinnati seems to have learned from its bad experience in 2002 that its better off moving on its own than trying to drag the whole region with it. The streetcar is a perfect way to start because it has support within the city. People in Loveland, West Chester, and Union can write to the Enquirer all they want, but at they end of the day, there is very little they can do to stop Cincy from pursuing the rail system that it so desperately needs, because this time it won't be coming anywhere near their neighborhoods. And if the streetcar proves to be the success that we all expect it to be, then should Cincinnati pursue light rail 10+ years from now, it will have a lot more bargaining power. We could then tie it in with the existing streetcar network, sending new lines to places where they are actually wanted. I'm guessing here that the financing could be worked in such a way that county taxes could be avoided. Basically, you identify the parts of town that oppose rail, and then you keep it away from them. Getting a smaller transit system is better than none at all, and if certain areas dislike public transit systems that intensely, than they deserve the crappy bus service they'll end up with anyway.
January 7, 200817 yr It's also important to note that the city of Cincinnati seems to have learned from its bad experience in 2002 that its better off moving on its own than trying to drag the whole region with it. The streetcar is a perfect way to start because it has support within the city. People in Loveland, West Chester, and Union can write to the Enquirer all they want, but at they end of the day, there is very little they can do to stop Cincy from pursuing the rail system that it so desperately needs, because this time it won't be coming anywhere near their neighborhoods. As long as the city is not asking the rest of us in the county to pay for this stupid idea, they can do whatever they want.
January 7, 200817 yr ^ Is it a stupid idea? You have to start somewhere? What do you propose to curb the ever increasing cost of the automotive mode of transportation? Concrete is expensive. Asphalt prices are on an upward trend. Oil prices are ever increasing, and before you know it it'll be past the point of no return. The streetcar may be rather local, but Cincinnati has to start somewhere. Its success will lead to extensions elsewhere through the city. To clifton. To UC. To Beyond. Be confident. As a tree grows, so shall the streetcar. You just got to believe.
January 7, 200817 yr As long as the city is not asking the rest of us in the county to pay for this stupid idea, they can do whatever they want. Thank you for illustrating my point. The urban core needs rail. Other parts of the region may not. If the city tries to include communities that have no interest in a more robust transit system, it will be a waste of time and money. So Cincinnati needs to just keep moving and leave the rest of the county behind. If they are stuck with $5+ gas in a few years, in areas that are comparatively less desirable due to having no alternative transit, it's because of their own short-sightedness. And if they're correct and this city doesn't need mass transit, then Cincy still gets rail and they have lost nothing. Cincy should work with communities that are interested in being a part of a long term plan for a more effective transit system (ie, Newport, Covington, Clifton, UC, XU, NKU) and not worry about areas that don't want to be involved.
January 7, 200817 yr Thank you for illustrating my point. The urban core needs rail. And thank you for illustrating my point. Urban core rail without regional support is a waste of time and money. Millions of $$$ to bring the OTR criminals closer to their customers is a waste.
January 7, 200817 yr what it really needs is a catchy name and slogan such as the Cincinnati Urban Networked Transit. Ok now everyone ride the C.U.N.T. :yap: LOL
January 7, 200817 yr The criminals need rail, because it would never occur to them to drive a car to a holdup. All the most famous bank robbers used trolleys and buses such as...a.....a.....let me think.............. If the evening news is correct, the criminals don't need help commiting crimes, look at Anderson, they've had more than their share of armed muggings, robberies etc.
January 7, 200817 yr Thank you for illustrating my point. The urban core needs rail. And thank you for illustrating my point. Urban core rail without regional support is a waste of time and money. Millions of $$$ to bring the OTR criminals closer to their customers is a waste. Now that just makes no sense. OTR criminals are already getting to where they want to be because of buses and walking, They don't need a light rail to go where they are already going. Light rail will not increase criminal movement. It may provide another way, but the numbers will say about the same. Also, to oppose rail because of the cost is non-rational thinking. The cost of this is a mere drop in the bucket compared to what it takes to keep a functional highway system. The I-75 upgrade is expected to surpass 350 BILLION dollars! Just to widen I-75 which will then already obsolete before they even get the project finished. Then in 40 years from now, they will have to spend another 500 BILLION (inflation adjusted) just to upgrade it again. Then you have to factor in the cost of repaving every other year, damage control, rising cost of gasoline, pollution, vehicle wrecks, etc. etc. etc. The beauty of rail is once it is completed it rarely needs upgraded. Just maintained and new lines added to regions that require it. It is a very cost effective alternative to highway and bus transit.
January 7, 200817 yr Author I think the figure for I-75 , or at least this area's portion, is closer to 5 billion from the river to 275, but it is still a lot of money
January 7, 200817 yr Thank you for illustrating my point. The urban core needs rail. And thank you for illustrating my point. Urban core rail without regional support is a waste of time and money. Millions of $$$ to bring the OTR criminals closer to their customers is a waste. My point was that the city shouldn't be beholden to non-citizens for its transit system, because they will never support it. You came in and blasted the streetcar and identified yourself as the "rest of us in the county", which is exactly what I was referring to. You made no assertion whatsoever beyond that, so how exactly did I illustrate anything for you? Also, you may view rail in the urban core as a waste, because it won't connect to suburb A or strip mall B, but for those of us who actually live there, it would be a major quality of life improvement. Again, that was my whole point. Residents of the city need to look out for themselves and not worry about the county as a whole. I, for one, don't care if the suburbs ever get connected via rail, because I already live in the city and there's nothing out there that I would want to go to. I hope that they do, for the sake of the region, but it really wouldn't affect my life one way or the other, whereas having the urban core crisscrossed with streetcars and/or light rail would make a big difference in the way I travel to nearby neighborhoods.
January 7, 200817 yr Thank you for illustrating my point. The urban core needs rail. And thank you for illustrating my point. Urban core rail without regional support is a waste of time and money. Millions of $$$ to bring the OTR criminals closer to their customers is a waste. Most "OTR criminals" don't live in OTR. Over 75% of the people arrested in OTR live in other neighborhoods, including the "nice" ones. They're already your neighbors, they just commute to work like everyone else.
January 7, 200817 yr I think the figure for I-75 , or at least this area's portion, is closer to 5 billion from the river to 275, but it is still a lot of money I am not sure what the Cincinnati costs totals are, but I am referring to the southern Ohio region from Brent Spence to I-70. The Brent Spence is estimated to surpass well over 900 million alone which already blows light rail costs out of the water. Also the I-75 widening will only be to 4 lanes I believe from 3 with a select few axillary lanes here and there. A lot of money just for 1 lane of asphalt. So anyone saying rail is too expensive or not worth the cost needs to take a second look and educate themselves.
January 7, 200817 yr My point was that the city shouldn't be beholden to non-citizens for its transit system, because they will never support it. You came in and blasted the streetcar and identified yourself as the "rest of us in the county", which is exactly what I was referring to. You made no assertion whatsoever beyond that, so how exactly did I illustrate anything for you? Also, you may view rail in the urban core as a waste, because it won't connect to suburb A or strip mall B, but for those of us who actually live there, it would be a major quality of life improvement. Again, that was my whole point. Residents of the city need to look out for themselves and not worry about the county as a whole. I, for one, don't care if the suburbs ever get connected via rail, because I already live in the city and there's nothing out there that I would want to go to. I hope that they do, for the sake of the region, but it really wouldn't affect my life one way or the other, whereas having the urban core crisscrossed with streetcars and/or light rail would make a big difference in the way I travel to nearby neighborhoods. Jimmy, my point is that the city is already beholden to non-citizens (I think you mean residents) for many things. I pay my share of Cincinnati payroll taxes, and I don't want it going to a million $ trolley system so you can get from Fountain Square to OTR. I think its a waste. Who ever asked to connect this trolley system to strip malls? The only way to make it viable is to provide transportation to the people traveling to the city to work. I would be all for a system similar to Cleveland's Rapid (which has its own problems). The residents of the city cannot look out for themselves, they are dependent on the work force.
January 7, 200817 yr I pay my share of Cincinnati payroll taxes, and I don't want it going to a million $ trolley system so you can get from Fountain Square to OTR. I think its a waste. Dan, this is only the beginning of the system that would lay down the foundation for a much larger and greater streetcar system. Other lines will be built as well. You can't just put all your lego's together at the same time, you need to build your way up. Your Ohio taxes are already being funneled into wasteless billion dollar highway projects that are not doing anything to curb the congestion problem. At least this gives us an alternative. It works for everyone else that is much smaller than Cincinnati, so why do you think a 3.5 metro region cannot benefit from it?
January 7, 200817 yr Jimmy, my point is that the city is already beholden to non-citizens (I think you mean residents) for many things. I pay my share of Cincinnati payroll taxes, and I don't want it going to a million $ trolley system so you can get from Fountain Square to OTR. I think its a waste. You're correct. I misspoke and the term I should have used is "non-residents". The streetcar is not going to be financed by payroll taxes. I guess I can't say that officially, because I'm not on city council nor have the specific details of the financing been set in stone, but from what I've read so far, payroll taxes are not part of the plan. The only way to make it viable is to provide transportation to the people traveling to the city to work. I would be all for a system similar to Cleveland's Rapid (which has its own problems). A streetcar system isn't intended to allow people to commute to work from outside of the city. Its purpose is to make living in the city more feasible, and encourage workers to live downtown and bypass that commute altogether. It also spurs development, which makes the nearby areas more attractive for everyone. Look, I want light rail too, but Hamilton County voted it down back in 2002. That's the whole reason why I said that Cincinnati can't wait around for the rest of the county to decide they want something more than buses. It needs to take care of the transit needs of its own residents first, and focus on non-residents getting to work later, if they ever show any interest. The residents of the city cannot look out for themselves, they are dependent on the work force. Um... the residents of the city are part of the work force. Mason and West Chester don't seem to have any problem bending over backwards to appease their residents, and a lot of people work in those areas that don't actually live there. So why should Cincinnati not tend to the needs of its residents?
January 7, 200817 yr Jimmy, my point is that the city is already beholden to non-citizens (I think you mean residents) for many things. I pay my share of Cincinnati payroll taxes, and I don't want it going to a million $ trolley system so you can get from Fountain Square to OTR. I think its a waste. And after we ask all the non-resident workers, we could then ask convention center visitors and those in town for the Reds game how we should spend the hotel/sales taxes they paid. The current plan, to my knowledge, does not use any sort of tax increase. A good portion of the funds will be from future property taxes along the streetcar line. I don't think too many workers will abandon their jobs in the city because, even though they are getting taxed the same amount as before, they don't agree with the financial decisions of a municipality.
January 7, 200817 yr ^sfisher, if that's all I mean to the city, equivalent to a visitor, then I will do my best to spend as little time and money as possible within the limits. No, I don't believe I get my moneys worth for the taxes I pay, and don't try to tell me how I use the roads etc. just for the privelege of working within the city limits. P&G can move all its centers outside the city's limits for all I care. Jimmy, Its ludicrous to say that payroll taxes won't go towards this system. So what? Any money not well spent, means less money elsewhere. I'm all for the development and I conceed that it can spur future growth. I think that is the key. A system that only traverses downtown, with no plan to expand is worthless. Yes, the city should bend over backwards for its residents, but within its means. I guess what really bothers me the most about this thread, is the constant whine that those of us in the suburbs are to blame for all of the cities problems.
January 7, 200817 yr A system that only traverses downtown, with no plan to expand is worthless. Well I'm glad the Cincy system won't be worthless because there is a definite plan to expland. I'm glad you agree!
January 7, 200817 yr I guess what really bothers me the most about this thread, is the constant whine that those of us in the suburbs are to blame for all of the cities problems. As far as mass transit (the general topic of this thread) is concerned, the suburbs ARE to blame for a large percentage of the city's problems. The city of Cincinnati bears most of the burden for Metro bus routes into the suburbs, suburbs (Mason specifically) are pulling out what little funding they do put into Metro, the suburbs voted down light rail in 2002, and people from the suburbs make up a large part of the streetcar opposition that constantly writes uniformed letters to the Enquirer's opinion page. I grew up in the suburbs and understand their appeal, but there's definitely an anti-city, anti-mass transit attitude in the 'burbs that is tremendously hampering this city's ability to grow, both economically and in population.
January 7, 200817 yr Yes, the city should bend over backwards for its residents, but within its means. I guess what really bothers me the most about this thread, is the constant whine that those of us in the suburbs are to blame for all of the cities problems. Actually suburban sprawl is the number 1 reason reason why inner cities decline. The idea of moving further and further away from declining centers by building way too many strip malls and new housing that a region simply cannot support is a horrible economic scenario. Not too mention 80% of suburbanites prefer to stay out of the central cities and shop at every other new mall getting built every other year which exasperates the problem and in turn causes even more decline. If you or your neighbors lived in Cincinnati and moved to say West Chester and 1000 others followed. Who do you think moves into the vacant housing you are leaving behind? Certainly not residents from other states or other metropolitan areas. That fact is that the overall population in the Cincinnati-Dayton region is decreasing. You CANNOT have growth without population increase or the region is going to have problems. Non-Cincinnati residents residents REFUSE to work with Cincinnati because of this "I don't live there, why should I care" syndrome that I often here from way to many suburbanites. The region gets funding from Ohio on a "the bigger you are, the more money you get basis" and since the overall region population is declining, guess what that means? Less money for EVERYONE, not just the declining areas. What does it take for sprawlbanites to wake up to this fact and start trying to make the region grow as a whole and help stop the population loss?
January 7, 200817 yr Ronnie and Jimmy, you guys are blaming middleclass people who move to the suburbs for the decline of the cities! That is hysterical! You have to understand why these people are moving! There are few opportunities and benefits to live within the city limits. Taxes are high, schools are bad, crime is rampant. You can talk all you want about crimes happening in the suburbs, and of course they do, but you have to understand why people don't feel safe within the city limits. When I was out of college, I lived at the Westmont Apartments. They were brand new and beautiful. Look at them now, and look at that entire neighborhood. Who would choose to live there now? I take it neither of you have children in the Cincinnati school system. Who in their right mind would let their children go a Cincinnati school if it wasn't Walnut Hills? Why would people want to shop downtown when it was difficult if not impossible to find reasonable parking. Certainly it is improving, but you can't blame people for wanting to improve themselves. I'm sorry if that causes the decline in the metro population, but we aren't talking about Hyde Park or Clifton when we are talking about living in the city. As far as Metro, my payroll taxes do go towards that, and if I choose not to ride, that is my choice. Of course Cincinnati would want to provide bus service into the city, so that they can get those employees working there, to provide a bigger tax basis. The city isn't doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. Figure out how to keep people within the city, don't just blame them for leaving. My only point was that I didn't think a trolley would do it.
January 7, 200817 yr Author I guess what really bothers me the most about this thread, is the constant whine that those of us in the suburbs are to blame for all of the cities problems. As far as mass transit (the general topic of this thread) is concerned, the suburbs ARE to blame for a large percentage of the city's problems. The city of Cincinnati bears most of the burden for Metro bus routes into the suburbs, suburbs (Mason specifically) are pulling out what little funding they do put into Metro, the suburbs voted down light rail in 2002, and people from the suburbs make up a large part of the streetcar opposition that constantly writes uniformed letters to the Enquirer's opinion page. I grew up in the suburbs and understand their appeal, but there's definitely an anti-city, anti-mass transit attitude in the 'burbs that is tremendously hampering this city's ability to grow, both economically and in population. Here is a list of jurisdictions in hamilton county that provide no direct funding for metro: Addyston Village Amberley Village Arlington Heights Village Blue Ash City Cheviot City Cleves Village Deer Park City Elmwood Place Village Evendale Village Fairfax Village Forest Park City Glendale Village Golf Manor Village Greenhills Village Harrison City Lincoln Heights City Lockland Village Loveland City Madeira City Mariemont Village Montgomery City Mount Healthy City Newtown Village North Bend Village North College Hill City Norwood City Reading City St. Bernard City Sharonville City Silverton City Springdale City Terrace Park Village The Village of Indian Hill City Woodlawn Village Wyoming City Anderson Township Colerain Township Columbia Township Crosby Township Delhi Township Green Township Harrison Township Miami Township Springfield Township Sycamore Township Symmes Township Whitewater Township
January 7, 200817 yr Yes, the city should bend over backwards for its residents, but within its means. I guess what really bothers me the most about this thread, is the constant whine that those of us in the suburbs are to blame for all of the cities problems. Actually suburban sprawl is the number 1 reason reason why inner cities decline. The idea of moving further and further away from declining centers by building way too many strip malls and new housing that a region simply cannot support is a horrible economic scenario. Not too mention 80% of suburbanites prefer to stay out of the central cities and shop at every other new mall getting built every other year which exasperates the problem and in turn causes even more decline. If you or your neighbors lived in Cincinnati and moved to say West Chester and 1000 others followed. Who do you think moves into the vacant housing you are leaving behind? Certainly not residents from other states or other metropolitan areas. That fact is that the overall population in the Cincinnati-Dayton region is decreasing. You CANNOT have growth without population increase or the region is going to have problems. Non-Cincinnati residents residents REFUSE to work with Cincinnati because of this "I don't live there, why should I care" syndrome that I often here from way to many suburbanites. The region gets funding from Ohio on a "the bigger you are, the more money you get basis" and since the overall region population is declining, guess what that means? Less money for EVERYONE, not just the declining areas. What does it take for sprawlbanites to wake up to this fact and start trying to make the region grow as a whole and help stop the population loss? If the region was declining it would be 1.5 million instead of the 2.2 million it's at now.
January 7, 200817 yr When I was out of college, I lived at the Westmont Apartments. They were brand new and beautiful. Look at them now, and look at that entire neighborhood. Thank you for illustrating my point perfectly! You think the neighborhood you live in now will stay new and beautiful? Think again. Sprawl will make sure it doesn't! As for me, I live in a suburb (Kettering), but I know that I need to support the City of Dayton as well as I can. The thing with you is, you just simply don't give a damn which is EXACTLY why I stated "I don't live there, so it's not my problem". Well, I don't live in Washington D.C. But it is my problem who is in office there which is why I vote. You should care for more than just the neighborhood you live in. Whether you like Cincinnati or not, it is the center of the region and needs EVERYONE'S support.
January 7, 200817 yr Author Dayton MSA is declining Cincinnati MSA is growing but Cincinnati is growing at a rate faster than Dayton is declining, so overall the fictional Cincinnati-Dayton CSA would still be growing. Data 2000-2006. Cincinnati added 4.71% or about 95k Dayton lost 1.09% or about 10k
January 7, 200817 yr Thomas, the loss you state in the Dayton MSA was largely due to split of Springfield from the Dayton MSA in 2003 which resulted in almost 100,000 decrease fom the Dayton MSA. not because more people moved from Dayton than Cincinnati. Also consider the Cincinnati MSA mainly increased in Butler and Warren Counties which in large part comes from Dayton to Warren County which again is the Cincinnati MSA. Hamilton county LOST population during those years mentioned. Care to recalculate? ;-)
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