January 7, 200817 yr The Cincinnati-Dayton region as you say as "fictional" is not growing except in Warren and Butler Counties. This is fact anywhere you read.
January 7, 200817 yr ^If you add in Colerain Twp that's another 50,000+ without any of those other jurisdictions...bumping that total just about even with the City of Cincinnati. I don't see how you can discount the non-incorporated westside communities. That is a large chunk of the population no matter how you look at it. I was going by your original statement, which was: It was in the other areas of Hamilton County where the initiative went down in flames...primarily in the western portions of the county (ie Green Twp, Delhi Twp, Harrison, Miami Twp). If you add the most populous township in Hamilton County (Colerain) it's going to make a difference. You can argue whether Colerain is 'west' or 'north', but whatever. I was listing those as examples...I didn't think I had to list every single community on the westside. I also didn't mean to imply that the westside vote was solely to blame, but rather that it was a large factor in the equation of the measure going down the way it did.
January 7, 200817 yr The Cincinnati-Dayton region as you say as "fictional" is not growing except in Warren and Butler Counties. This is fact anywhere you read. Essentially all of Butler County is related to the Cincinnati market...whereas Warren County is about 60/40, with 60% of the influence coming from Cincinnati. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that some of the Nky counties are growing in population as well...which is obviously all connected to the Cincinnati market. Cincinnati = growing slowly but surely Dayton = declining slowly but surely
January 7, 200817 yr >crime is rampant Crime is not rampant in Cincinnati, but talk radio talking about it is. I've walked through Over-the-Rhine hundreds of times and never had a problem. I've walked over 20 miles in the last two days through Cincinnati neighborhoods, people (and by that I mean BLACK people) are incredibly nice. I had business in public housing today, everyone was incredibly friendly. >When I was out of college, I lived at the Westmont Apartments. They were brand new and beautiful. Look at them now, and look at that entire neighborhood. Look at Forest Park, Colerain, Springdale, et al. Suburbs are made to be thrown away. They exist only for the first 10 years they stand, when everything's new, then the initial wave of transplants start retiring or move into bigger houses an exit further out. Fields-Ertel is now 10 years old, it's in noticeable physical decline. Fading signs, weather streaks running down building walls. > Who in their right mind would let their children go a Cincinnati school if it wasn't Walnut Hills? Well my kids are going to go to Catholic schools, so it's a non-issue for me and many others. >Why would people want to shop downtown when it was difficult if not impossible to find reasonable parking. Downtown has 30,000 parking spaces, about 27,000 more than any mall. >Certainly it is improving, but you can't blame people for wanting to improve themselves. I'm sorry if that causes the decline in the metro population, but we aren't talking about Hyde Park or Clifton when we are talking about living in the city. The city population has dropped for three reasons that are rarely cited, shrinking household sizes, institutional creep (the large-scale demolition of city neighborhoods for the expansions of UC, the various hospitals, etc.) and...parking lots. Just look at a satellite image of Walnut Hills and Corryville for examples of neighborhoods decimated by parking lots. >Figure out how to keep people within the city, don't just blame them for leaving. My only point was that I didn't think a trolley would do it. I did my master's thesis on parking lots. Parking lots are everything, man. Cars don't just keep moving, they have to stop so that people can get out. Then they have to sit there for a few hours, taking up tons of space. People aren't even "leaving" the city, for the reasons I stated above, it's a myth. People aren't leaving the county either, it's mostly low birthrate due to modern contraception and legalized abortion. My main beef with suburbanites? They're catered to by the media, and so they're never put on the spot and required to articulate their opinions and decisions.
January 7, 200817 yr When I was out of college, I lived at the Westmont Apartments. They were brand new and beautiful. Look at them now, and look at that entire neighborhood. Lame anecdote. There are plenty of apartment buildings in Cincinnati that are on par and actually better than the cheap crap that goes up in the 'burbs. *coughdowntowneastendotrcorryvillecolumbiatusculummtadamscough* Who would choose to live there now? I take it neither of you have children in the Cincinnati school system. Who in their right mind would let their children go a Cincinnati school if it wasn't Walnut Hills? I'll be honest with you; unless the school was Walnut, SCPA or some other school that really proved themselves worthy to me, I wouldn't send my kids to a CPS school, at least in the current state; I'd send them to a private school because I personally have been to some incredibly bad public schools. However, that's just one of many problems. Public schools wouldn't be so bad if middle and upper class people didn't flee to the suburbs in the first place! Why would people want to shop downtown when it was difficult if not impossible to find reasonable parking. Oh and those customers at Kenwood Mall don't pay for those parking spaces through taxes and the prices of goods wherever they shop?! You don't mind walking through a sea of parking? I sure as hell do. Its nice being able to park right below fountain square. Hell after 4pm the most you'll pay is three bucks if you're out all night. You're also mentioning a problem that would be alleviated with the damn streetcar. Certainly it is improving, but you can't blame people for wanting to improve themselves. Yep, you certainly build a lot of character and learn a lot about the world and yourself in your isolated subdivision or in your car that takes you from A to B. Do you like living amongst people who are in constant fear of the generalized other. ? As far as Metro, my payroll taxes do go towards that, and if I choose not to ride, that is my choice. Of course Cincinnati would want to provide bus service into the city, so that they can get those employees working there, to provide a bigger tax basis. The city isn't doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. And if bedroom suburbs were smart they'd improve their own commercial economic development and public transit, to increase their tax base. Wouldn't want those undesirables in Cincinnati to "infultrate" though. Hyde Park and Clifton aren't the only livable neighborhoods in Cincinnati. Saying they aren't doing it out of the goodness of their hearts implies that they're motivated by some evil scheme. Why wouldn't they try to capitalize on their infrastructure and 200,000 + workers downtown, most of which probably come from the suburbs but might consider living downtown or in OTR because of better mass transit options? Come on, you're conservative, you're suppose to understand the economics. My only point was that I didn't think a trolley would do it. If someone proved to you that over a billion dollars in investment has occured as a result of implementing a street car system in city X and Y, would you even care to acknowledge that it makes a difference (even though there is solid proof)? Honestly.
January 7, 200817 yr If we can get one street to look like a vancouver, the system will be a resounding success.
January 8, 200817 yr Gee, where do I begin? The thing with you is, you just simply don't give a damn which is EXACTLY why I stated "I don't live there, so it's not my problem". Whether you like Cincinnati or not, it is the center of the region and needs EVERYONE'S support. Excuse me Ronnie, you don't know me and you don't have any idea what I care about. I love this city, I choose to live here, I am not from here. I consider myself a Cincinnatian even tho I live in a suburb, I've lived in the city limits, and I continue to support cincinnati through my payroll taxes and my county taxes. Don't think that my disagreement with an idea means I don't like the city. Funny, I guess I can't believe you really support Dayton if you don't live there. >crime is rampant Crime is not rampant in Cincinnati, but talk radio talking about it is. I've walked through Over-the-Rhine hundreds of times and never had a problem. I've walked over 20 miles in the last two days through Cincinnati neighborhoods, people (and by that I mean BLACK people) are incredibly nice. I had business in public housing today, everyone was incredibly friendly. I too have worked in the inner city. Always accepted, always treated well. My wife has done disability/workers comp nursing and I've gone with her to some of the seediest areas of OTR and never had a problem, but you can't tell me that those areas don't change overnight. Don't tell me you would be just as comfortable at midnight in some of these same places. Yes, crime is rampant in some of these areas. Talk radio isn't responsible for it. "Look at Forest Park, Colerain, Springdale, et al. Suburbs are made to be thrown away. They exist only for the first 10 years they stand, when everything's new, then the initial wave of transplants start retiring or move into bigger houses an exit further out. Fields-Ertel is now 10 years old, it's in noticeable physical decline. Fading signs, weather streaks running down building walls. " Not sure what your point is, the Westmont apartments or whatever they are called now, are in the city limits of Cincinnati. > Who in their right mind would let their children go a Cincinnati school if it wasn't Walnut Hills? "Well my kids are going to go to Catholic schools, so it's a non-issue for me and many others. " The schools in your area are a non-issue for you? Do you understand the effect schools have on property values? Are you a property owner? You tell me you are supporting a city, but you are afraid to send your children to the schools? Can you say hypocrit? Lame anecdote. There are plenty of apartment buildings in Cincinnati that are on par and actually better than the cheap crap that goes up in the 'burbs. *coughdowntowneastendotrcorryvillecolumbiatusculummtadamscough* See above, These apartments are in the city of cincinnati, and have become very dangerous. Who would choose to live there now? I take it neither of you have children in the Cincinnati school system. Who in their right mind would let their children go a Cincinnati school if it wasn't Walnut Hills? I'll be honest with you; unless the school was Walnut, SCPA or some other school that really proved themselves worthy to me, I wouldn't send my kids to a CPS school, at least in the current state; I'd send them to a private school because I personally have been to some incredibly bad public schools. However, that's just one of many problems. Public schools wouldn't be so bad if middle and upper class people didn't flee to the suburbs in the first place! Thank you, you are proving my point, the school system isn't good enough for your kids (if you have any one day). This affects property values. The parish I live in covers parts of Delhi and Green Townships. The Delhi area is in Oak Hills Schools, while that portion of Green Township is in the City of Cincinnati school district. When I purchased my home, it was important to me to make sure I was in the Oak Hills District because the property values were so different for homes just a few streets over. Middle and upper class people are fleeing for these very reasons. Their children need better schools. I too sent my kids to Catholic schools. Why? Because of the discipline more than the religion, and Oak Hills Schools are very good. There is no discipline in public schools, especially Cincinnati. My only point was that I didn't think a trolley would do it. If someone proved to you that over a billion dollars in investment has occured as a result of implementing a street car system in city X and Y, would you even care to acknowledge that it makes a difference (even though there is solid proof)? Honestly. You show me a billion dollar investment for a trolley around downtown, and I'll buy a season pass! The trolley sounds to me like another bridge climb attraction.
January 8, 200817 yr Who in their right mind would let their children go a Cincinnati school if it wasn't Walnut Hills? How about any of the magnet schools...there are a few of them and they are all good schools. Many people don't know but there are two new magnet high schools of sorts that were previously just elementary schools and then grew into full-blown high schools as well. Both Dater High School (westside) and Clark High School (eastside) compliment SCPA and Walnut Hills. Now neither Clark or Dater are Walnut Hills/SCPA caliber, but they are quality college prep high schools that offer a good/quality education. CPS has been improving its state rating consistently across the board...so I think it's about time to start giving CPS the credit it deserves. And obviously none of this includes the Catholic schools or charter/private schools. I have said it before and I'll say it again...if you actually want to make it work in the city - you can. The lame excuses of terrible schools, overcrowding, pollution, and high crime are simply that - EXCUSES.
January 8, 200817 yr Does this help the discussion?: Cincinnati Police District 1, which includes Downtown, Over-the-Rhine, Mt. Adams and the West End, now has the lowest crime rate of any of the five Cincinnati Police Districts? This is a little-known fact.
January 8, 200817 yr No, because public transit -- buses, streetcars, and rail -- are known generators of crime and panhandling. I intended sarcasm there, but it's sad that a lot of suburbanites have been lured into their fantasy that that is true. What we are seeing is a trend of declining crime rates to historical lows in many major cities, such as Cincinnati and New York City, and a sharp increase in crime in suburban and exurban areas. As the prior housing projects are replaced with Section 8 housing, mixed-income projects, and housing spread throughout a region, crime declines. (Lang's Poverty and Discrimination) Public transit has _nothing_ to do with that and there is _no_ reliable data to back that up.
January 8, 200817 yr Sisyphus is working hard tonight. The impenetrability of the suburban argument never ceases to amaze. The crime issue is palpably a joke, mostly because it is mostly a code for race rather than an actual experience of crime outside of a few select neighborhoods. The school issue is the same and while CPS has plenty of problems, the district has pretty effectively created through the magnet programs a middle class friendly environment for providing a decent education. Catholic schools remain an option for most neighborhoods in grade school and the entire city for high school. Yes, the abandonment of the city by the middle class is actually the cause of their relative decline. Historical fact, not a supposition. Cities and suburbs have cycles of life and death - see Delhi Pike, great swathes of Springfield and Colerain Township and certainly parts of Cincinnati. The trolley is not about connecting the region. That will come later at $5.00 a gallon gas. The trolley is about allowing for a expansion of the core urban environment in and around downtown and later the university area. The trolley is a capital investment that allows for easier mobility around Cincinnati's historic core. It will be useful both for visitors - tourists - and locals - shopping in Findlay Market, living at the Banks. Downtowns eliminated much of their residential population for good reasons fifty years ago and we've come to realize that in a multi-nodal urban environment (all suburbs are really urban by historic standards) downtowns need certain tools to make them attractive and distinct from the car dominated suburban environment. One of the most effective is rail based people movers.
January 8, 200817 yr But rail and bicycle transit won't become a reality until people can come to the realisation that the era of cheap gasoline is over. There are many that have the mentality that our government can simply fix everything by going to war with another country, or to open up the Strategic Oil Reserves, or by suing the oil corporations. Sorry, but that doesn't work. Simply put, supply and demand is pushing prices ever higher, and $4/gallon is now a reality in some parts of the country. Some are predicting $4/gallon throughout much of the country, a trend that will be a reality now that a barrel of oil is $100. Oh sure, when gasoline prices increase, you hear the usual banter. The same collective spew out phrases like, "I'll just combine my trips," "I'll drive less," "I'll carpool," "I'll buy on a Friday when the prices are typically lower," "I'll use a gasoline card with rewards," and etc. Sorry, that doesn't work. If it worked in the past, we'd see dramatic decreases in gasoline consumption in the United States, but all indicators have so far pointed upwards. You'll also have the same lot that will advocate for more freeways in their suburban neighborhoods -- as long as it's not in their backyard, of course. Freeways are very costly to implement, requiring a minimum of 84 feet for two travel lanes, a right and left shoulder, and a jersey barrier, at least 30 feet of clearance zones, and then a road base with a thick pavement layer. In 30 years, the pavement will need to be constructed, which will be very costly. Compare this with rails, which include a rather narrow ROW (30 feet), minimal clearance zones, and a base for the rail line that will require no reconstruction as long as it is properly maintained. Over the decades, we have adopted this mentality that suburbs=good and inner-city=bad, brought on by the riots in Detroit and the inclusion of African-Americans and other "undesirables" into neighbourhoods -- white flight, coming about at a time when racial integration was on the minds of many. Look at St. Louis, which has dozens of square blocks that are abandoned or greatly neglected, and its many older suburbs (dating to just after post-WWII) that are now seeing severe declines -- and white flight to exurbs. What do you think will happen in 30 years? I guess I got on a long tangent, but no one person has provided tangable evidence that is from a reliable source that streetcars, raillines, etc. generate crime.
January 8, 200817 yr Sisyphus is working hard tonight. The impenetrability of the suburban argument never ceases to amaze. The crime issue is palpably a joke, mostly because it is mostly a code for race rather than an actual experience of crime outside of a few select neighborhoods. The school issue is the same and while CPS has plenty of problems, the district has pretty effectively created through the magnet programs a middle class friendly environment for providing a decent education. Catholic schools remain an option for most neighborhoods in grade school and the entire city for high school. Yes, the abandonment of the city by the middle class is actually the cause of their relative decline. Historical fact, not a supposition. Cities and suburbs have cycles of life and death - see Delhi Pike, great swathes of Springfield and Colerain Township and certainly parts of Cincinnati. The trolley is not about connecting the region. That will come later at $5.00 a gallon gas. The trolley is about allowing for a expansion of the core urban environment in and around downtown and later the university area. The trolley is a capital investment that allows for easier mobility around Cincinnati's historic core. It will be useful both for visitors - tourists - and locals - shopping in Findlay Market, living at the Banks. Downtowns eliminated much of their residential population for good reasons fifty years ago and we've come to realize that in a multi-nodal urban environment (all suburbs are really urban by historic standards) downtowns need certain tools to make them attractive and distinct from the car dominated suburban environment. One of the most effective is rail based people movers. I understand what you are saying about middle class flight causing the decline, but it is not as simple as saying they shouldn't have left! What makes a neighborhood or city go bad? Its not simply a race issue. As I was saying, Westmont, Charleston Square, 4 Towers, were all apartment complexes within the city limits which were the cream of the crop 30 years ago. Queen City had a vibrant business district, the premier audio store in the city was at QC and Grand. All of Westwood, Western Hills, the shopping center, was safe and comfortable. Now I can't let my daughters go to Western Hills to shop after dark because of the gangs. And its not because of race! There is a quality of people whether white or black who just don't care about themselves or their surroundings. The same thing has happened coming up Delhi Pike. As far as the trolley, seriously, can't it be started out with a fleet of alternative fuel vehicles? Do we really have to lay track? Can't it be done like in Key West? Legit question, I don't know that much about it. And you're right, a lot of changes will come with $5 gas! That is what will spur private investment into alternatives. I am baffled by this blind support for anything "City" except for the public schools! I would think, if one were living in the city because one believes it is the right thing to do, then that should include its schools. Don't "flee" from the schools. Stay and fight and make them better.
January 8, 200817 yr I am curious, as to how many of you reading this thread are property owners, and where is your property located? Serious question, I'm not trying to start anything. I just think property owners look at things differently then renters.
January 8, 200817 yr My roommate (owns) and I live in West Price Hill... IN the city limits. He plans on staying in the immediate area once he is married and has kids. I plan on owning within (some) city limits.. not sure if it will be Cincinnati. I have problem going anywhere after dark in this neighborhood. I've gone jogging after dark. It's no West Chester, but I feel safe.
January 8, 200817 yr The very reason why suburbanites perceive downtowns to lack parking is the very argument for rail. There is an enormous superstitious swirl that surrounds parking -- line of sight between parking space and destination is fundamental to the suburban environment. That breaks down in an urban environment. A related line of sight is what gives rail the advantage over buses. Don't know where the buses go? Somehow the less-educated minority populations of our cities navigate bus systems in large numbers, yet educated white suburbanites can't figure out where and when they go, despite them all having the internet, which has the maps and timetables on it for a decade. >had a problem, but you can't tell me that those areas don't change overnight. Don't tell me you would be just as comfortable at midnight in some of these same places. Yes, crime is rampant in some of these areas. Talk radio isn't responsible for it. Well, unless you're stumbling home from the bar every night, how often are you going to be out roaming the streets after midnight? And if you don't have a car, it can't get broken into. The fact is several hundred single women have moved into apartments and condos in downtown and Over-the-Rhine in the past few years, and I haven't heard of any major crime problems, because if there was one, we sure as hell would be hearing it trumpeted by the media. >"Look at Forest Park, Colerain, Springdale, et al. Suburbs are made to be thrown away. They exist only for the first 10 years they stand, Not sure what your point is, the Westmont apartments or whatever they are called now, are in the city limits of Cincinnati. The point is many middle-class people assume that everybody in their neighborhood's going to maintain their house and their shop. Except for in the richest neighborhoods, they don't. Across the nation, many former middle-class suburbs are in precipitous physical and therefore economic decline. Except for buying in Hyde Park, Indian Hill, or another blue chip rich neighborhood, every area is at risk. Obviously, owning a home that declines in value is preferable to have rented for 30 years. But so much of the myth of the suburbs is that homes automatically go up in value. As a nation we are a victim of our success because as wealth nationwide grows, expectations for homes grow, and what was formerly a solid middle-class home now has closets that are 6 inches too small and one half too few bathrooms and (gasp!) an outdated kitchen. It's a childish game and I'm not a kid. > Who in their right mind would let their children go a Cincinnati school if it wasn't Walnut Hills? "Well my kids are going to go to Catholic schools, so it's a non-issue for me and many others. " The schools in your area are a non-issue for you? Do you understand the effect schools have on property values? Are you a property owner? You tell me you are supporting a city, but you are afraid to send your children to the schools? Can you say hypocrit? I rent because I don't know where I'm going to be a year or two from now. Also, my parents don't "help me out", like a lot of people my age who have homes and condos. Supporting the city doesn't have anything to do with supporting the public schools. And refer to my previous post, the whole school district game is an exclusively suburban one. DanB I have walked the walk (literally) when I went over 4 years as an adult with no car. I saved at least $20,000 in that time and kept a few pounds off. Everyone from the Midwest who's lived on the East Coast rides the subways there and is frustrated that we don't have them here. Never, not once, did someone voice a longing for a Target or a Don Pablo's or a CVS with a drive-thru pharmacy. Mass transit is an incredible money-saver and helps build neighborhoods and cities that residents care about and visitors take interest in. Highways don't. If a subway had been built under Gilbert Ave. through Walnut Hills back in 1925, there wouldn't be half the parking lots and garages that are there now. Guess what was there before those parking lots and garages. Apartments. Homes. Thousands and thousands of people that have been displaced so that businesses and institutions can have off-street parking. That's where Cincinnati's population went.
January 8, 200817 yr I am curious, as to how many of you reading this thread are property owners, and where is your property located? Serious question, I'm not trying to start anything. I just think property owners look at things differently then renters. My husband and I own property (a condo) on the edge of Over-the-Rhine. Before moving there, we owned a house in Pleasant Ridge. We we got married, I had an apartment in Green Township, not far from where I grew up. So yes, I grew up in the suburbs. However, I have no plans on moving back. We are huge supporters of the streetcar. We do not feel that it would be a waste of money. I don't understand why jmeck is a hypocrite for saying he'll send his kids to a Catholic school. We may send our future kids to a Catholic School ourselves, and it has nothing to do with school district.
January 8, 200817 yr I sold my house in Covington in order to move into an apartment downtown. Once the streetcar is built, I would love to buy a condo along the line.
January 8, 200817 yr "Don't know where the buses go? Somehow the less-educated minority populations of our cities navigate bus systems in large numbers, yet educated white suburbanites can't figure out where and when they go, despite them all having the internet, which has the maps and timetables on it for a decade." A planner at Queen City Metro told me that if he improved a bus route, people would still use the old route for TWO YEARS before they knew about the new route. People are creatures of habit. It seems to me that force of habit and word of mouth are more important than paper or internet bus schedules. There is a generation of suburbanites who have never been on a bus in their entire lives.
January 8, 200817 yr I don't understand why jmeck is a hypocrite for saying he'll send his kids to a Catholic school. We may send our future kids to a Catholic School ourselves, and it has nothing to do with school district. I wasn't referring to his sending his kids to a Catholic School, but his claim that the school district was a non-issue because he didn't use it. I would guess that one professing how great living in the city is would think the Cincinnati Public Schools are important whether or not you send your kids there. I don't live in the city, but I care very much about the schools because I believe that the strength of the schools is what makes an area superior.
January 8, 200817 yr I think word of mouth is the most important thing. If you know others who ride the bus you just ask 'em questions about it; or you ask someone who's standing at the bus stop. I became very familiar with the 17, 4, 33, and 24 just from asking people how to get somewhere faster. I rarely looked at bus schedules.
January 8, 200817 yr I don't understand why jmeck is a hypocrite for saying he'll send his kids to a Catholic school. We may send our future kids to a Catholic School ourselves, and it has nothing to do with school district. I wasn't referring to his sending his kids to a Catholic School, but his claim that the school district was a non-issue because he didn't use it. I would guess that one professing how great living in the city is would think the Cincinnati Public Schools are important whether or not you send your kids there. I don't live in the city, but I care very much about the schools because I believe that the strength of the schools is what makes an area superior. While I think it's important to have good schools, my husband and I did not pour over state test scores before deciding where to live. I don't know if that's what Jake meant, but that how I interpreted his statement.
January 8, 200817 yr But so much of the myth of the suburbs is that homes automatically go up in value. As a nation we are a victim of our success because as wealth nationwide grows, expectations for homes grow, and what was formerly a solid middle-class home now has closets that are 6 inches too small and one half too few bathrooms and (gasp!) an outdated kitchen. It's a childish game and I'm not a kid. The reason people moved to the suburbs and continue to move there is because as jmeck is saying, you can get more house for your money. Schools, crime, et. cetera, this is all typically a more sociological acceptable reason for moving somewhere. But boils down to a bigger newer house for less (and typically these buyers haven't accurately calculated their travel times into their expenses). If a subway had been built under Gilbert Ave. through Walnut Hills back in 1925, there wouldn't be half the parking lots and garages that are there now. Guess what was there before those parking lots and garages. Apartments. Homes. Thousands and thousands of people that have been displaced so that businesses and institutions can have off-street parking. That's where Cincinnati's population went. I'm pretty sure there was a "Deer Creek Park" or something there too. My dad was telling me recently that's where St. X High School used to play their football games when the school was downtown (Gramps was on the varsity squad back then).
January 8, 200817 yr ^Downtown and OTR have 97 acres of surface parking. Think about that. Deer Creek Commons is under I-71 between Eden Park Drive and Elsinore. Eight ballfields, I'm told. Hadn't heard about football.
January 8, 200817 yr But so much of the myth of the suburbs is that homes automatically go up in value. As a nation we are a victim of our success because as wealth nationwide grows, expectations for homes grow, and what was formerly a solid middle-class home now has closets that are 6 inches too small and one half too few bathrooms and (gasp!) an outdated kitchen. It's a childish game and I'm not a kid. Mr. Kennedy, this is not my quote. I wouldn't want to take credit for it.
January 8, 200817 yr But so much of the myth of the suburbs is that homes automatically go up in value. As a nation we are a victim of our success because as wealth nationwide grows, expectations for homes grow, and what was formerly a solid middle-class home now has closets that are 6 inches too small and one half too few bathrooms and (gasp!) an outdated kitchen. It's a childish game and I'm not a kid. I don't understand why inner cities can't just evolve accordingly. Maybe people are lazy and don't want to spend the money and time to remodel. If I were a homeowner in the city, I'd update my appliances and expand if I could. It's all a part of taking pride in your property. I think people just think it's easier to sell and move onto something brand new. That "fresh start". You'll always find people who enjoy having some connection to the past, though. A property that has evolved has a lot more character than a property that is brand new construction or even one stuck in time. Maybe that's just my perception; maybe its not what most people want but I think it's interesting how OTR is attracting so many young people. You don't have to be raising a family to enjoy a property value increase. Maybe OTR and the street car aren't for everybody but I definitely think they have their nitche.
January 8, 200817 yr I rent because I don't know where I'm going to be a year or two from now. Also, my parents don't "help me out", like a lot of people my age who have homes and condos. Supporting the city doesn't have anything to do with supporting the public schools. And refer to my previous post, the whole school district game is an exclusively suburban one. So are you saying you can pick and choose which city issues you support and still be a city supporter? So I can not support the trolley system and still be a city supporter? That statement by the way is a classic.
January 8, 200817 yr The criminals need rail, because it would never occur to them to drive a car to a holdup. All the most famous bank robbers used trolleys and buses such as...a.....a.....let me think.............. The James Gang used horses.
January 8, 200817 yr I am curious, as to how many of you reading this thread are property owners, and where is your property located? Serious question, I'm not trying to start anything. I just think property owners look at things differently then renters. My family owns 425 acres near Rickenbacker, and we're going to get filthy rich off the rails and the sky, not the roads.
January 8, 200817 yr >So are you saying you can pick and choose which city issues you support and still be a city supporter? Am I supposed to agree with everything the other 330,000 people in this city think and do? Well, when money that is currently being squandered in distant suburbs on natural gas fire pits and Mexican landscapers starts being reinvested in this city, the public schools will improve along with many other things. Rail transit is a, if not the primary way offices, other businesses, and residents can be encouraged to move into the city limits. Right now parking is too much of an impediment to redevelopment. Redevelopment of old shabby neighborhoods happens on a large scale in Washington, DC and Boston because there are twice as many millionaires and existing subway systems which means new homes, apartments, and offices require far fewer parking spaces. Because of cars and perceptions Cincinnati can't compete with its own suburbs. >So I can not support the trolley system and still be a city supporter? That statement by the way is a classic. The streetcar proposal is solid. The timing is perfect, there is a lot of momentum currently. If you're an opponent of the streetcar, that means you're a proponent of more buildings being torn down for parking lots and parking garages. Honestly, I go around town and just don't know how many more blocks can be demolished and replaced with the Habitat For Humanity quality junk going up in Walnut Hills before these neighborhoods are truley goners. Walnut Hills was the real thing, but suburban America prefers immitations to the real thing. And what's disgusting in Cincinnati is that we have the real thing here, but the suburbs have been so brainwashed that they're frightened or don't even recognize the real thing when it's right here. In the Sunbelt and out west they at least have the excuse of not having any old neighborhoods. And let's not get off track, so to speak, with regards to public schools versus Catholic and private schools, there are already other threads on this forum discussing them. Also, I don't have any kids. Don't want any rumors to get started.
January 8, 200817 yr Sisyphus is working hard tonight. LOL! I am curious, as to how many of you reading this thread are property owners, and where is your property located? Serious question, I'm not trying to start anything. I just think property owners look at things differently then renters. I own a house in the historic district of Newport. My decision to live on this side of the river was based solely on the house that I found. I was looking at houses in several urban neighborhoods in both KY and OH when I happened upon this place. I enjoy living in the city because I like being within walking distance of so much activity. Also, I prefer the older architectural styles and quality of materials (especially turn of the century, but definitely pre-WWII) to the cheap stuff that is being built nowadays. I think it's the same reason that everything is made in China lately. People seem to value a bargain above quality now, but that's a whole other issue for a different thread. Ronnie and Jimmy, you guys are blaming middleclass people who move to the suburbs for the decline of the cities! That is hysterical! You have to understand why these people are moving! There are few opportunities and benefits to live within the city limits. I don't blame middleclass people who move to suburbs for the cities' decline. It's everyone's right to live wherever they want, based on their own preferences and circumstances. I stated earlier that the suburbs bear some responsibility for the stagnation of Cincinnati's transit system specifically, however, and I'll stand by that. As for there being "few opportunities and benefits to live within the city limits", I would say the exact same thing about the suburbs. I have absolutely no interest in living out there. It's all personal preference, but ultimately, adding urban rail would add a benefit to living in the city, which is the whole point of building the streetcar. DanB, I really do think that most of the issues you've mentioned would be addressed (though not resolved, obviously) by the streetcar plan: 1) Increased development would encourage young professionals to live in downtown and OTR. 2) The increased population would do more to deter crime than anything else I can imagine. 3) The mix of income levels would eventually lead to schools that aren't solely serving the poor. 4) People could more easily live without a car (couples perhaps with one), effectively increasing their income level. 5) Parking would be less of a concern than you think, because many of the customers wouldn't be driving anyway. On a semi-related topic, has anyone else noticed how most of this plan's supporters refer to it as "The Streetcar" and most of its detractors call it "The Trolley"? I've never thought of the term "trolley" as derogative before, but I'm wondering if the more whimsical nature of the word lends itself better to the arguments of people who don't want to take it seriously. Just a thought.
January 8, 200817 yr Excuse me Ronnie, you don't know me and you don't have any idea what I care about. I love this city, I choose to live here, I am not from here. I consider myself a Cincinnatian even tho I live in a suburb, I've lived in the city limits, and I continue to support cincinnati through my payroll taxes and my county taxes. Don't think that my disagreement with an idea means I don't like the city. Funny, I guess I can't believe you really support Dayton if you don't live there. I'm sorry Dan, I was not trying to be insulting to you. But these are your words from a few pages back... As long as the city is not asking the rest of us in the county to pay for this stupid idea, they can do whatever they want. To me that implies an "I don't care what happens to inner city problems" attitude. I'm proud that your payroll taxes support the city of Cincinnati, but my guess is that it's not by choice. As for me, yes I do live in Kettering, but I claim my taxes for the city of Dayton. That is by choice. I also vote in the city of Dayton, shop and dine downtown when I can and visit downtown when I have nothing to do instead of going to the Greene which is only 1 mile from where I live and Dayton's hottest destination right now. I'm a suburbanite that supports Dayton as much as I can because I know how important it is to keep the core healthy. Why I live here is the same reason jmeck states, in that I simply have not made a decision to where I would like to wind up. But if I could afford it, I would be living in a downtown loft. I do not ride public transit for reasons which I stated before, but I do support rail and would vote for it. I do not like sitting in a parking lot on I-75 on the way home from work. I know how I-71 and I-75 gets in Cincinnati during rush hour. I put up with it for 5 years while I lived there. Why does everyone else cry about that and then not support a rail solution which would've helped? So spend 2 hours everyday of your life everyday instead of paying a few bucks more per year for rail? That's 2 dimensional thinking.
January 8, 200817 yr On a semi-related topic, has anyone else noticed how most of this plan's supporters refer to it as "The Streetcar" and most of its detractors call it "The Trolley"? I've never thought of the term "trolley" as derogative before, but I'm wondering if the more whimsical nature of the word lends itself better to the arguments of people who don't want to take it seriously. Just a thought. Be confident that leaders of the movement to build rail transit in the United States believe this to be true. Very perceptive.
January 8, 200817 yr But so much of the myth of the suburbs is that homes automatically go up in value. As a nation we are a victim of our success because as wealth nationwide grows, expectations for homes grow, and what was formerly a solid middle-class home now has closets that are 6 inches too small and one half too few bathrooms and (gasp!) an outdated kitchen. It's a childish game and I'm not a kid. Mr. Kennedy, this is not my quote. I wouldn't want to take credit for it. Sorry, that was a jmecklenborg quote. I don't know how your name got up there. You may want to reconsider taking credit for it. I don't understand why inner cities can't just evolve accordingly. Maybe people are lazy and don't want to spend the money and time to remodel. If I were a homeowner in the city, I'd update my appliances and expand if I could. It's all a part of taking pride in your property. I think people just think it's easier to sell and move onto something brand new. If I could gets to the heart of the matter. I can understand why people don't want to do home maintenance, or why it would seem nicer to buy a new home. Not every building needs to be around forever. But it stands to assume that all property owners want to increase or at least maintain the value of their property. That doesn't mean they all have the means to do it. If you buy a house in a decent neighborhood and 30 years later when you're old and on a fixed income and now your street is a haven for the drug trade means you're probably screwed. I would suspect that most of the derelict and abandoned properties in the city became that way not out of willful neglect but instead because our current land-use policies favor new construction on virgin land over reuse. The areas of the City that have remained "nice" (for lack of a better term) are more valuable than comparable homes outside the City. A few neighborhoods like Over-the-Rhine, the West End and Walnut Hills were actively though not always consciously killed through the housing, transportation and land use policies of the past 50 years, but most blighted areas probably came about either through the closing of the places of local employment (e.g. Northside or Lower Price Hill) or institutional creep (Corryville and South Avondale).
January 8, 200817 yr You all make great points comparing city and suburb migration patterns. One major thing most people forget to mention as being on the side of the (modern day) city and streetcar is gas prices. This will be a leading catalyst in the city's comeback. I was 16 yrs old in '96 and remember filling my '88 Dodge Daytona up at Speedway on Glenway Ave for 71 cents a gallon. These days are truly OVER! Hopefully sprawl and oversaturating the (suburban) home market will be soon too! For all of our property values sake!
January 8, 200817 yr I was just reading the daily update at Building-Cincinnati and saw that Roxanne Qualls just submitted an updated priority list for the OKI 2030 plan. It's pretty lengthy, but hidden away in there were: Over-the-Rhine/Uptown ($82M), streetcar Phase IB Union Terminal/Broadway Commons ($60M), streetcar Phase II I already knew that both of these were planned expansions, but I've never heard the OTR/Uptown route referred to as Plan IB before. Is it possible that this could happen sooner than we thought? (here's the link: http://www.building-cincinnati.com/2008/01/qualls-submits-oki-2030-recommendations.html)
January 8, 200817 yr Don't be surprised if the streetcar gets to Uptown by way of Gilbert Avenue. I think it would open up the whole area east of I-71 that's not very well used today.
January 8, 200817 yr Author that would cause the intersection of gilbert/ taft-mcmillan to explode. It also deals with the grading issues, and puts the baldwin complex, and surrounding buildings on the route. If we had unlimited money, I would love to see a green and yellow PCC car provide service off a spur of the gilbert line to eden part and either the art museum or the conservatory. Or an open air Hiawatha car. But the speciality cars would not be a major part of the system, but a nice little thing to have if we had unlimited money.
January 8, 200817 yr that would cause the intersection of gilbert/ taft-mcmillan to explode. It also deals with the grading issues, and puts the baldwin complex, and surrounding buildings on the route. If we had unlimited money, I would love to see a green and yellow PCC car provide service off a spur of the gilbert line to eden part and either the art museum or the conservatory. Or an open air Hiawatha car. But the speciality cars would not be a major part of the system, but a nice little thing to have if we had unlimited money. Okay, now you are talking about a system that would benefit more than just downtown! Clang ,clang, clang went the trolley Ding, ding, ding went the bell Zing, zing, zing went my heartstrings as we started for Huntington Dell. Chug, chug, chug went the motor Bump, bump, bump went the brake Thump, thump, thump went my heartstrings as we glided for Huntington Lake. The day was bright, the air was sweet The smell of honeysuckle charmed me off my feet I tried to sing, but couldn't squeak In fact I felt so good I couldn't even speak Buzz, buzz, buzz went the buzzer Time to all disembark, Time to fall went my heartstrings as we got off at Huntington Park As we got off at Huntington Park.
January 8, 200817 yr Of all people repeating Judy Garland lyrics... :-o clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
January 8, 200817 yr that would cause the intersection of gilbert/ taft-mcmillan to explode. It also deals with the grading issues, and puts the baldwin complex, and surrounding buildings on the route. If we had unlimited money, I would love to see a green and yellow PCC car provide service off a spur of the gilbert line to eden part and either the art museum or the conservatory. Or an open air Hiawatha car. But the speciality cars would not be a major part of the system, but a nice little thing to have if we had unlimited money. Okay, now you are talking about a system that would benefit more than just downtown! Remember that this thing will be built in phases.
January 8, 200817 yr Of all people repeating Judy Garland lyrics... :-o Yeah, what was I thinking!!!!! :roll:
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