That's what what I was wondering  :bang:

Don't be surprised if the streetcar gets to Uptown by way of Gilbert Avenue. I think it would open up the whole area east of I-71 that's not very well used today.

But it doesn't get me anywhere I want to go.  I have strong reservations about that route.  IMO you need a route that goes from University Hospital/Zoo to the River more directly. 

Don't be surprised if the streetcar gets to Uptown by way of Gilbert Avenue. I think it would open up the whole area east of I-71 that's not very well used today.

But it doesn't get me anywhere I want to go.  I have strong reservations about that route.  IMO you need a route that goes from University Hospital/Zoo to the River more directly. 

 

There would be no reason it couldn't end up at the hospitals, or the zoo -- or Clifton/Ludlow after passing through the prior destinations. Just remember, we're not building corridor-level line-haul transportation like you'd have with I-71 light rail or Vine Street buses. Streetcars function as circulators. Their routes could literally be circular as opposed to straight-line. The idea is to connect as many dots as possible.

 

With a circulator, think in terms of pont-to-point instead of end-to-end.

But so much of the myth of the suburbs is that homes automatically go up in value.  As a nation we are a victim of our success because as wealth nationwide grows, expectations for homes grow, and what was formerly a solid middle-class home now has closets that are 6 inches too small and one half too few bathrooms and (gasp!) an outdated kitchen.  It's a childish game and I'm not a kid.

 

Mr. Kennedy, this is not my quote.  I wouldn't want to take credit for it.

 

Sorry, that was a jmecklenborg quote.  I don't know how your name got up there.  You may want to reconsider taking credit for it.

 

I don't understand why inner cities can't just evolve accordingly. Maybe people are lazy and don't want to spend the money and time to remodel. If I were a homeowner in the city, I'd update my appliances and expand if I could. It's all a part of taking pride in your property. I think people just think it's easier to sell and move onto something brand new.

 

If I could gets to the heart of the matter.  I can understand why people don't want to do home maintenance, or why it would seem nicer to buy a new home.  Not every building needs to be around forever.  But it stands to assume that all property owners want to increase or at least maintain the value of their property.  That doesn't mean they all have the means to do it.  If you buy a house in a decent neighborhood and 30 years later when you're old and on a fixed income and now your street is a haven for the drug trade means you're probably screwed.

 

I would suspect that most of the derelict and abandoned properties in the city became that way not out of willful neglect but instead because our current land-use policies favor new construction on virgin land over reuse.  The areas of the City that have remained "nice" (for lack of a better term) are more valuable than comparable homes outside the City.  A few neighborhoods like Over-the-Rhine, the West End and Walnut Hills were actively though not always consciously killed through the housing, transportation and land use policies of the past 50 years, but most blighted areas probably came about either through the closing of the places of local employment (e.g. Northside or Lower Price Hill) or institutional creep (Corryville and South Avondale).

 

I'd toss in environmental factors. The Mill Creek just isn't a very nice place to live. Between the factories (many of them producing carcinogens) and the rail and highway plus the fact that the basin tends to collect pollutions rather than it dispersing, provides a pretty solid rationale for moving up the hills. Now there is a different question for why you move when you live on top of the hills.

^ Anything can be a carcinogen if you get enough of it. Eat enough peanut butter you can get cancer.

Well, yes but Cincinnati as a major chemical industry center has long had a relatively poor environment, in terms of air, water, and ground quality.

Who doesn't in Ohio?

Don't be surprised if the streetcar gets to Uptown by way of Gilbert Avenue. I think it would open up the whole area east of I-71 that's not very well used today.

But it doesn't get me anywhere I want to go.  I have strong reservations about that route.  IMO you need a route that goes from University Hospital/Zoo to the River more directly. 

 

There would be no reason it couldn't end up at the hospitals, or the zoo -- or Clifton/Ludlow after passing through the prior destinations. Just remember, we're not building corridor-level line-haul transportation like you'd have with I-71 light rail or Vine Street buses. Streetcars function as circulators. Their routes could literally be circular as opposed to straight-line. The idea is to connect as many dots as possible.

 

With a circulator, think in terms of point-to-point instead of end-to-end.

 

A circulator going down McMillan and up Taft from Clifton Road to Woodburn Avenue should be a part of the expanded streetcar plan regardless.  If we believe it can make the difference in Over-the-Rhine than why not in Walnut Hills as well?

 

On another note, people on this thread seem to focus on a Mt. Auburn tunnel as the best direct connection to the Clifton/University area, but I think an Ohio Avenue tunnel from the basin up to that apartment complex would be much better.

Keep in mind that anytime you either elevate a right of way or go underground, the $$$ costs go up accordingly.

Don't be surprised if the streetcar gets to Uptown by way of Gilbert Avenue. I think it would open up the whole area east of I-71 that's not very well used today.

But it doesn't get me anywhere I want to go.  I have strong reservations about that route.  IMO you need a route that goes from University Hospital/Zoo to the River more directly. 

 

There would be no reason it couldn't end up at the hospitals, or the zoo -- or Clifton/Ludlow after passing through the prior destinations. Just remember, we're not building corridor-level line-haul transportation like you'd have with I-71 light rail or Vine Street buses. Streetcars function as circulators. Their routes could literally be circular as opposed to straight-line. The idea is to connect as many dots as possible.

 

With a circulator, think in terms of point-to-point instead of end-to-end.

 

A circulator going down McMillan and up Taft from Clifton Road to Woodburn Avenue should be a part of the expanded streetcar plan regardless.  If we believe it can make the difference in Over-the-Rhine than why not in Walnut Hills as well?

 

On another note, people on this thread seem to focus on a Mt. Auburn tunnel as the best direct connection to the Clifton/University area, but I think an Ohio Avenue tunnel from the basin up to that apartment complex would be much better.

Or take the gradual grade of reading rd and make a left a MLK and all the way to Vine and go down instead of up Vine.

you don't want to get the tracks that far apart

On another note, people on this thread seem to focus on a Mt. Auburn tunnel as the best direct connection to the Clifton/University area, but I think an Ohio Avenue tunnel from the basin up to that apartment complex would be much better.

 

There are enough options for a streetcar route to get up the hill(s) that a tunnel isn't really necessary...especially when you consider the costs.  Streetcars can handle a much steeper grade than light rail, and that is important to keep in mind with these proposed routes.

 

I was just reading the daily update at Building-Cincinnati and saw that Roxanne Qualls just submitted an updated priority list for the OKI 2030 plan.  It's pretty lengthy, but hidden away in there were:

 

Over-the-Rhine/Uptown ($82M), streetcar Phase IB

Union Terminal/Broadway Commons ($60M), streetcar Phase II

 

I already knew that both of these were planned expansions, but I've never heard the OTR/Uptown route referred to as Plan IB before.  Is it possible that this could happen sooner than we thought?

 

There is the chance/desire to have an Uptown connection go through financial studies and what not while the initial phase is under-construction.  This could then lead to a time line where phase 1 is nearing completion and phase 1b starts to break ground.  If you see investment spike along the phase 1 route then there is a better possibility, but it also helps tremendously that we're NOT tapping into federal funds for the first phase.  It's success (or even foreseen success) can make an attractive pitch to the feds for some matching funds.

federal funds for the first leg are a bad idea, they are tough to get and might not cover the opportunity cost of obtaining them.  If it takes us two years to get the federal funds and they only amount to $10 million, then due to inflationary costs, it is a wash, let alone the amount of opportunity missed by not having the streetcar for two years.

federal funds for the first leg are a bad idea, they are tough to get and might not cover the opportunity cost of obtaining them.  If it takes us two years to get the federal funds and they only amount to $10 million, then due to inflationary costs, it is a wash, let alone the amount of opportunity missed by not having the streetcar for two years.

 

No American city has ever received Federal funds to build a modern streetcar.

A "Bellevue Tunnel" for streetcars is an interesting idea, with such a tunnel performing a similar function to the deceased Bellevue Incline.  But the short length of such a tunnel would not allow the line to climb the grade between McMicken St. and Bellevue Park.  Google Earth says it's roughly 1,500ft. between McMicken and the north part of Bellevue Park and a 300ft. climb, so do the math.  A 10% grade would mean a 3,000ft. tunnel, or one that would stretch roughly to the parking lot behind the Friar's Club at the corner of Ohio and McMillan.  Although in such a case we could dub it the McMicken-McMillan Tunnel.  Even then 10% is quite steep, the brilliance of the Mt. Auburn Tunnel routing was that it took advantage of the natural dip just north of William H. Taft/Calhoun St., emerging at Corry St. so as to avoid that conjested area and overall rise roughly 50 fewer feet.       

Bring it up Liberty Hill/Highland just like the good old days.  Got this shot when the street was being repaved. It would be almost impossible to get from Liberty to Liberty Hill though with the amount of traffic...

 

http://s16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/Hakaida/?action=view&current=railonhighland007.jpg

^The #24 bus still takes that route but then comes up Auburn Ave. 

Does anyone know who voted to get rid of the street cars in the first place? Are they still alive?

I am curious, as to how many of you reading this thread are property owners, and where is your property located?  Serious question, I'm not trying to start anything.  I just think property owners look at things differently then renters.

 

I own a home in Pleasant Ridge (moved back into the city from Sycamore Township last summer).  Just got my tax bill in the mail this week.  Obviously in an ideal world I would love to be able to take light rail downtown to work.  The streetcar--though not a mass transit method per se--is a first step to getting the region on the road to improved transit options.  Sure, there is risk involved, but the  payoff if it succeeds is tremendous.  There's momentum for this project, which can build on the momentum created by the Fountain Square redo, which to my eyes has been a huge success.  Going downtown any night, and especially on the weekends, is a treat now.  Throw in other projects like the Banks, good things happening in OTR, Queen City Square, etc., and the city really seems to be headed down the right track....

Tuesday, January 08, 2008

 

Mallory's Briefings Return

 

After a holiday hiatus, Mayor Mark Mallory's weekly Tuesday press briefings returned today. Here's some stuff you might want to know:

 

1. He'll give the State of the City speech Feb. 4, 6:30 p.m. at Playhouse in the Park, Mount Adams. Invitations will be sent out this week. "I think we had a very successful year last year, so we'll have a lot to talk about."

 

2. January is National Mentoring Month, and he'll be having a press conference Thursday, 10 a.m., Cintas Center, to talk about mentoring initiatives, including a new one he'll announce then.

 

3. The deadline for neighborhoods to apply to get a mural by MuralWorks this year is Jan. 15. Call 333-0388 or go to http://www.artworkscincinnati.org/.

 

4. Friday, he expects recommendations from the Go Cincinnati study, led by Councilman Chris Bortz and Chamber of Commerce president Ellen van Der Horst. Among them, he's sure - a recommendation to push ahead on streetcars. "I'll have to sift thorugh them, see what I like, see what I don't like."

 

5. He likes the idea of a Cincinnati Film Festival. "Let me tell you, I am very interested in that concept. We have a very rich film industry in the city of Cincinnati, considering we are not L.A., Chicago or New York." The $120,000 in funding mentioned by CityBeat writer Kevin Osborne, Mallory said, "doesn't seem like a lot of money to me."

posted by Jane Prendergast at 1/08/2008 05:46:00 PM  0 comments links to this post

Does anyone know who voted to get rid of the street cars in the first place? Are they still alive?

 

it was a combination of many factors.  the last streetcar was retired april 29, 1951.  Some of the factors were: the automobile lobby, the fact that the great depression and world war two had resulted in nearly two decades of deferred maintenance to the system, world war two scrap metal drives tore up streetcar tracks not currently being used, world war two gasoline rationing severely curtailed driving pushing previously retired streetcar back into service resulting in higher accident rates [although nothing compared to what we have now in terms of fatalities], streetcars lost large amounts of advertising revenue during the war [commercial space was turned over to "get a war job" posters], the tracks were placed in the center of the street, which made sense at the time, but made boarding very difficult in the face of automobile traffic, and many others. 

 

Cincinnati's bus system is essentially our old streetcar routes with busses instead.  Has it been successful? well in the 1940s, Cincinnati's public transportation carried 85 million riders a year (with a county population of 621k), now metro carries about 24 million riders a year with a county population of 845k

Someone just found a blast from the past. Had the Regional Rail Plan for Hamilton County been approved by voters in 2002, Vehicles Miles Traveled (VMT) in Hamilton County would have fallen by 15% within the first fifteen years.

 

It was a very extensive plan - 60 miles of LRT and about 8 miles of streetcar.

 

Can't imagine why talk-radio is opposed to rail transit, can you?

^(Yoda shakes his head in disbelief!)     ..........Sorry just got done watching SWII.       

 

That's some pretty interesting stuff though!

But so much of the myth of the suburbs is that homes automatically go up in value.  As a nation we are a victim of our success because as wealth nationwide grows, expectations for homes grow, and what was formerly a solid middle-class home now has closets that are 6 inches too small and one half too few bathrooms and (gasp!) an outdated kitchen.  It's a childish game and I'm not a kid.

 

Mr. Kennedy, this is not my quote.  I wouldn't want to take credit for it.

 

Sorry, that was a jmecklenborg quote.  I don't know how your name got up there.  You may want to reconsider taking credit for it.

 

I don't understand why inner cities can't just evolve accordingly. Maybe people are lazy and don't want to spend the money and time to remodel. If I were a homeowner in the city, I'd update my appliances and expand if I could. It's all a part of taking pride in your property. I think people just think it's easier to sell and move onto something brand new.

 

If I could gets to the heart of the matter.  I can understand why people don't want to do home maintenance, or why it would seem nicer to buy a new home.  Not every building needs to be around forever.  But it stands to assume that all property owners want to increase or at least maintain the value of their property.  That doesn't mean they all have the means to do it.  If you buy a house in a decent neighborhood and 30 years later when you're old and on a fixed income and now your street is a haven for the drug trade means you're probably screwed.

 

I would suspect that most of the derelict and abandoned properties in the city became that way not out of willful neglect but instead because our current land-use policies favor new construction on virgin land over reuse.  The areas of the City that have remained "nice" (for lack of a better term) are more valuable than comparable homes outside the City.  A few neighborhoods like Over-the-Rhine, the West End and Walnut Hills were actively though not always consciously killed through the housing, transportation and land use policies of the past 50 years, but most blighted areas probably came about either through the closing of the places of local employment (e.g. Northside or Lower Price Hill) or institutional creep (Corryville and South Avondale).

 

I'd toss in environmental factors. The Mill Creek just isn't a very nice place to live. Between the factories (many of them producing carcinogens) and the rail and highway plus the fact that the basin tends to collect pollutions rather than it dispersing, provides a pretty solid rationale for moving up the hills. Now there is a different question for why you move when you live on top of the hills.

 

Over the past three decades we've been a victim of impatient capital and I can't help but think that it's what influences those policies. Investors are demanding a quick return on investment. That is why all these large scale projects on virgin land lack complexity and are ultimately doomed. They don't have to take into consideration sustainability, TOD (transit-oriented development), and various other social needs of a community. Those brownfield sites take a long time to clean up. Then there's all of the regulations and guidelines, grants, blah blah blah. I can't wait until the American Can building is done though!

^I second that!    That one crosses my mind daily when I drive by it.

^That one and that Crosley building that is also along I-75 just South of the I-74 interchange.

^That one and that Crosley building that is also along I-75 just South of the I-74 interchange.

 

 

Anything planned for Crosley?

^Not that I know of...but it could be a really awesome hotel or entertainment type complex.  I always imagine that tower having spot lights coming out of the top of it...what a scene that would be as you're driving down I-75.  And of course you can always do the typical residential conversions...but I like to think --> outside the box.  :-D

What does the Crosley building look like?

What does the Crosley building look like?

 

It sits in Camp Washington and is easily the tallest building in that particular area West of I-75...it is white (albeit a dirty white color now) and is about 8 stories tall with a slender tower that extends another 1 story or so above the rest of the structure.  I don't have a picture...maybe someone else can get one for me.

I've noticed that building before and always wondered what it was.  now i know!

I hear the Cincinnati Streetcar will be back before City Council on January 28th. Now is the time to write those letters if you haven't done so already.

I just sent them all a letter to let them know why I support it.

Getting my letters together as well and will be sending them off.

I hope Cleveland people get in on this.  I know I'll send a letter, too... light rail in Cincy (and Columbus, too) is good for the whole state.

Thanks, clvlndr!  Much appreciated!

Yeah, if Cincinnati gets street cars, the pressure will be on in other Ohio cities as well.

^I tend to agree with you, but why didn't this happen when Dayton implemented it's street car system?

Yeah, if Cincinnati gets street cars, the pressure will be on in other Ohio cities as well.

 

Right, just like all the other cities wanted to imitate Cincinnati's Skywalk system!!!  :wink2:

^I tend to agree with you, but why didn't this happen when Dayton implemented it's street car system?

 

because, to the best of my knowledge, dayton doesn't have streetcars.

Yeah, if Cincinnati gets street cars, the pressure will be on in other Ohio cities as well.

 

Right, just like all the other cities wanted to imitate Cincinnati's Skywalk system!!!   :wink2:

 

Skywalks exist in other cities. We've taken out some of ours, from my understanding. Regardless, you're comparing apples to oranges. I actually think that if they updated Tower Place Mall, those skywalks connecting Tower Place to the hotels would drive many tourists in there to shop and eat. With an increase in population downtown I think it would work nicely.

 

 

^I tend to agree with you, but why didn't this happen when Dayton implemented it's street car system?

 

When was this? We tend not to follow the lead of third world countries. Wakka wakka.

Seriously though, when and where did they implement this system? Are you refering to the old days? You have to take current economic and social circumstances into consideration as well as the urban environment itself.

It was a joke david.  From your understanding?  Do you see them?  Have you been downtown?

 

They were big years ago. Then everyone started complaining that they were keeping people from walking the streets.

Yeah, if Cincinnati gets street cars, the pressure will be on in other Ohio cities as well.

 

Right, just like all the other cities wanted to imitate Cincinnati's Skywalk system!!!   :wink2:

 

 

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the skywalks either.  But the concept of a streetcar is the exact opposite of a skywalk.  Streetcars increase foot traffic, whereas skywalks are designed to keep people off of the city streets, which means that window shopping and passerby impulse buying dries up.  Additionally, it adds to the feeling that you shouldn't be outside, so pedestrians don't venture out and around anywhere the system doesn't funnel them.  It makes for a city that seems foreboding and uninhabited.  People tend to want to be where other people are, so having a network of skywalks is really a recipe for killing your downtown, for all of the reasons above.  The streetcar, on the other hand, should combat all of those things.  And since they appear to be polar opposites and the skywalks were a failure, I'm guessing that the streetcars will be a stunning success! :-D

It was a joke david.  From your understanding?  Do you see them?  Have you been downtown?

 

They were big years ago. Then everyone started complaining that they were keeping people from walking the streets.

 

If you're arguing that planners have made mistakes then you'll win...

 

Skywalks have proven to be a detriment to downtowns, where private and public funding for them hasn't brought more people and investment down there. The inverse is true for street cars. It's worked in Portland, Little Rock, Minneapolis, and Racine Wisconsin; I don't see why it wouldn't work here in such a dense environment.

^I tend to agree with you, but why didn't this happen when Dayton implemented it's street car system?

 

Yup...no streetcars in Dayton.  Portions of the bus system run on electric cables though...but certainly not the same thing at all.

Watching tv last night an E.D. commercial came on, later they showed an old PCC Streetcar in the background as the man looked like he was probably headed with his girl over to his city loft?  Streetcars ARE Sexy and maybe they can cure our city of E.D!!  :lol:

^Oh O.K.  I knew I saw some sort of electric cable bus\streetcar system up near UD that leads downtown.  Now that I think about it, their are no tracks in the street where those run.

My bad.

Hey, whatever happened to that cancelled meeting at Xavier?  Did they ever reschedule that?

Hey, whatever happened to that cancelled meeting at Xavier?  Did they ever reschedule that?

 

Nope...I'm not sure who knows much about that group from Xavier.  At one point the head of the group contacted me and said that it would be appreciated if I came to that meeting.  I wasn't planning on it, but I decided to anyways because of the request I be there.  Then as soon as I decide to go the darn thing gets cancelled and the group seemingly shrivels up.