On the day Enquirer columnist Peter Bronson launched his fact-challenged broadside against the Cincinnati Streetcar recently -- see here: http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080103/COL05/801030325/-1/columnists -- a wise person on this list called to say, "John, don't respond to Bronson's column. That's what he wants - to start a debate over the 'facts' of the streetcar, one that so confuses the public that they just tune-out on the entire discussion. That's what happened in 2002 with light rail."

 

So I didn't write a letter to the Enquirer in response, though others did. But several people on this list have asked what I thought about Bronson's piece, and so here goes.

 

Bronson's source for his column was a former resident of Portland, Oregon, who lives 275 miles away in the tiny seacoast town of Bandon, from where he leads a national campaign against higher-level public transportation, particularly rail projects like the Cincinnati Streetcar. Because a lot of cities are taking lessons from Portland's experience with rail transit, O'Toole takes great pains to assert that all the good things you hear about Portland aren't really true. He denies that Portland's streetcar system is closely associated with the amazing increases in population and property values in and around downtown Portland. By any objective measure, the Portland Streetcar is a huge success. But not to O'Toole, a gifted writer who skillfully exploits his former Portland connection and cherry-picks isolated data-points to support his view that decentralizing, auto-dependent cities are the model for the future. I'd like illustrate how he does this by extracting quotes from Bronson's column.

 

"Voters have turned against light rail and street cars, according to Randal O'Toole, who has spent most of his life in Portland."  This is untrue. Voters in the City of Portland have never voted down a rail project. Sure some suburban projects have lost at the ballot box, and a plan to get Oregon voters to pay for regional rail in Portland was defeated, but light rail and streetcars are widely supported in the City of Portland. Bus ridership has stagnated, but rail passengers have tripled. Almost half of the downtown workforce arrives by transit. Imagine the parking garages they are not having to build. And forever rebuild.

 

"Portland transit carried fewer riders in 2006 and 2007 than it did in 2005."  This is also untrue. Here are the last ten years of Portland transit ridership statistics: http://trimet.org/pdfs/ridership/busmaxstat.pdf  Look at "Originating Rides" and "Boarding Rides" especially for "Rail" at the bottom of Page 1 - it's up every year for the past ten years. And by any other measure of performance -- weekend use, revenue collected, fare recovery ratio (what passengers pay as a share of actual costs), and declining subsidies, rail is doing extremely well. I don't know how O'Toole can say what he says with a straight face. About the only thing he could hang his hat on is the fact that passenger miles on buses are less than they were ten years ago, but this is a logical outcome of Portland's strategy to repopulate the city along rail lines. Look at the statistics and then read the quote again to understand its cleverness.

 

"Portland bet the farm on light rail and street cars that serve just 2.3 percent of the people."  Here's how O'Toole comes up with this. He takes the number of transit trips that occur every day in the relatively small area where extensive transit service exists and then divides it by the total number of trips that occur in the 600-square mile Portland region. This denominator of this fraction (X/Y where "Y" is the denominator, for those of us who've forgotten) thus includes trucks on Portland's freeways, soccer dads taking kids to a game, the cable guy on a service call, and police vehicles -- trips that would never occur on transit. The effect is that transit's contribution (represented by the numerator, "X") appears to be relatively small compared to the huge, super-regional tally of daily trips of every type, whether transit-competitive or not. Let me bring this a little closer to home. Our region's highest regional transportation priority is a $1-2 billion replacement of the Brent Spence Bridge. But the Brent Spence carries only about 2% of our region's vehicular trips every day. By O'Toole's reasoning, we shouldn't replace it. Or what about Columbia Parkway, which carries less than half of 1% of daily trips here -- should we not have built it seventy years ago? I wonder how people living in Mount Washington, Mount Lookout and Milford feel about that. The truth is, almost every component of our vast regional transportation system, by itself, carries a small percentage of overall regional traffic. This is true in almost any city in America.

 

"Traffic jams in Portland are worse than in Atlanta, Boston, Los Angeles, New York and San Francisco."  This doesn't even pass the laugh test. Portland is a hugely congested city? Really? Some California, Texas and Florida cities, maybe. Atlanta, Washington D.C., maybe. But Portland is about Number 30 on the list of our nation's most congested cities shown -- see here: http://mobility.tamu.edu/ums/congestion_data/tables/national/table_1.pdf.  If you have too much time on your hands, you might want to page through the tables of the Urban Mobility Report, for there are some surprises. My guess is that somewhere in there, O'Toole finds justification for his vague but heroic suggestion that Portland, Oregon is somehow more congested than, say, Midtown Manhattan. But this is what Randal O'Toole does -- he finds an obscure measure, draws sweeping conclusions from it, and then cleverly uses it to influence the decisions of elected officials who have no reason to believe otherwise.

 

"Portland spent $665 million subsidizing development along the streetcar route and then claimed that the streetcar led to the development"  This is a "straw-man" argument. Nobody ever said that the Cincinnati Streetcar would end development subsidies here. Dan Deering, Michael Moose and I have made a pretty good case that in the areas served by the streetcar, it could reduce the need for parking subsidies with salutary benefits for downtown businesses and public safety. In Portland, the subsidies for property development are going hand-in-hand with streetcar development to encourage green buildings, street-level retail and affordable housing. Fully 20% of the housing units in Portland's new Pearl District -- recently honored as the most livable new neighborhood in the United States -- are affordable housing units, which surprises everyone when they go there and see it. By the way, some Portlanders think their city is starting to wean itself from development subsidies. The best evidence: Texas developer Trammell Crow is building a streetcar-served, high-rise rental apartment building on Portland's waterfront, and it is not getting a penny of subsidy. Can we say that about The Banks?

 

"Tax Increment Financing, used by Portland and proposed in Cincinnati, diverts resources from schools, street improvements and other services."  People are sympathetic with this argument until they understand that the TIF's projected to fund the streetcar will result from new taxes on mostly abandoned property that is not slated for improvement anyway. It's not money the schools are counting on. And a lot of the street improvements will be part and parcel with the developments they serve. This is a non-issue.

 

"Remember, streetcars do not lead to redevelopment," O'Toole said. "But they can lead to more crime. Portland is having a huge crime problem associated with its light rail." He says police in one community reported that 40 percent of robberies and drug crimes take place within a quarter mile of a light-rail station.  This is kind of like blaming Music Hall for crime in Over-the-Rhine. A "huge" crime problem on Portland's light rail. Um, no. True, there has recently been some crime in some Portland's suburbs served by light rail. But I need to provide some perspective here. Portland's trains carry about 100,000 riders a day, a small city on the move all day and most of the night. Over the past few years, Portland's transit agency has, over the years, removed fare inspectors and transit police from trains, and the bad guys have taken advantage of it. Portland's free transit fares probably haven't helped either. The other lesson here is that light rail stations and streetcar stops need to be situated in open, well-lit and very public places. Unfortunately, Portland has placed some light rail stations in freeway trenches and remote areas where they aren't visible to police or to anyone else. On the other hand, in the interest of intellectual honesty, O'Toole might want to write a piece on how transit safety compares with 40,000+ auto deaths each year in this country.

 

"Although Portland population increased 21 percent in the 90s, its suburbs grew 30-40 percent; and Vancouver, Wash. - right across the Columbia River (sound familiar?), grew 210 percent as Portlanders fled congestion and high taxes."  Good for those suburbs! And good for the city too! This shows that Portland city -- with 21% growth in the last decade -- has had phenomenal growth compared to Cincinnati, which was built out many years ago and, like Portland, is hemmed in by suburbs. Oh, and the mayor of Vancouver -- O'Toole's model community -- now wants light rail to extend from Portland across the Columbia River to downtown Vancouver.

 

After I presented some of these data to Bronson, he simply said that, well, since The Enquirer reporter had written such a favorable front-page story about the Portland Streetcar after a recent visit there (beforehand, she seemed like a real skeptic to me), he felt that a second opinion was called for. And that's just what Bronson wrote -- a poorly informed opinion based on information from a source with an axe to grind.

 

Question: Who pays Randal O'Toole to campaign across the country against a balanced transportation system? I mean, I wouldn't presume to advise O'Toole's 2,000-person town on whether to add a third stoplight or not. But here's some food for thought: economist Joe Cortright has determined that Portlanders drive about 20% fewer miles each year than citizens of comparably sized American cities. Who benefits if this trend spreads to other cities? And who doesn't?

 

This is why I take Cincinnatians to Portland several times a year to see the streetcar, to enable them to draw first-hand conclusions about the benefits, costs, risks and rewards of something that's so foreign ... literally.

 

Our next trip to Portland is on February 15th. Write back if you'd like to go. You'll learn a lot, and it will cause you to reflect on the kind of city you want Cincinnati to be.

 

See for yourself!

 

Best regards,

 

John Schneider

513-579-1300

 

  I have been lurking on this thread for a while...and I must say that I REALLY hope Cincy can get a streetcar system going.  It is a shame that Ohio doesn't rely more on a form of rail mass transit in the urban areas.  I look at the old pictures of Cleveland and see the streetcar system they HAD only to see those rails all gone now.  Our light/heavy rail system is okay, but even that should extend to more parts of the city.  It seems however, that BRT and faux trolleys are the way that our transit system in Cleveland seems to be leaning.  I really hope Cincy can get the ball rolling for the rest of the state. 

as a UC student new to Cincinnati, I am ALL FOR the streetcar.

 

Can someone please give me instructions/addresses for the letter? thanks

as a UC student new to Cincinnati, I am ALL FOR the streetcar.

 

Can someone please give me instructions/addresses for the letter? thanks

 

Here you go:

 

WRITE LETTERS TO:

Cincinnati City Hall, 801 Plum Street

Cincinnati, OH 45202

 

CINCINNATI CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS:

Vice Mayor David Crowley

Jeff Berding

Laketa Cole

Chris Bortz

John Cranley

Leslie Ghiz

Chris Monzel

Roxanne Qualls

Cecil Thomas

 

as a UC student new to Cincinnati, I am ALL FOR the streetcar.

 

Can someone please give me instructions/addresses for the letter? thanks

 

They each have specific rooms that you should address them to.  You can find the full information here:

http://cincinnati-oh.gov/council/pages/-4126-/

^A breath of ridiculous air...even the comments on the Enquirer's site are totally bashing this and refuting just about everything he has said in this.  Not to mention streetcars have actually been seen to lower crime by putting more eyes on the street.  Do you really think a streetcar running through OTR is going to increase or decrease crime along the route?  Any reasonable thinking person or someone who knows Downtown's/OTR's dynamics will say decrease.

 

I think Deters statements against the streetcar actually give it more credibility.

 

Additionally, the majority of the money spent on FS did not go to move the fountain...it went to structurally repair the garage that is there.

yea and if you look at what deters said, he kept calling it a trolley.  bah!  Totally different.  How can someone have such a strong opinion on something they are SO ignorant to?!? 

DanB, he said that on the Bill Cunningham show, and his comments were rebutted by Chief of Police Tom Streicher.  Do you really expect that the county prosecutor would be particularly well-informed on matters of mass transit and urban planning?  That whole appearance was an appeal for the jail tax, so he can put more non-violent black people in jail for probation offenses.  He probably hasn't set foot in Over-the-Rhine in years for any reason outside of his business, and you haven't shared with us your most recent experience, if any, unless you're holding back in some sneaky way.  Many people on this site live in Over-the-Rhine or do business there on a daily basis, know each block and side street very well. 

 

The media repeatedly reports crimes not in Over-the-Rhine as being in Over-the-Rhine, especially the West End.  Last night 700WLW reported a carjacking in "Clifton", at the corner of Clifton & Vine.  THAT'S in Over-the-Rhine, 300ft. below and over a mile from Clifton proper.       

No, but I believe he knows a thing or two about crime, and no one is talking about non violent black people!  Yes, I've been to OTR many times, and have never had a bad experience.  But no, I wouldn't let my children go down there at night, and I won't let my wife go down alone for her work during the day.  We've been to some very questionable areas.  I can only imagine what they are like during the night. 

 

And yes, amazingly, I know that the corner of Clifton and Vine is in OTR.

 

Why must you act like you are the only one who knows anything about Cincinnati or what's best for Cincinnati?

 

No, but I believe he knows a thing or two about crime...

 

Evidently not...seeing as how he is using outdated information and flat out scare tactics to try to prove his point.  It is a weak argument that has very little hard evidence to back it up.  Don't get me wrong I understand the need for a new jail, but he has gone about defending his stance with zero class.

WOW Randy, you broke the 3 minute response that time!!!

 

As Deters said,  “it doesn’t matter where you move the fountain. One punk with a gun can ruin everything.”

 

Come on Randy, he's just trying to make a point.  Until the city is serious about the crime problem in OTR, not many people are going to support trolleys running through it.

 

OTR Crime stats

 

Part one crimes

 

2005: 1939

2006: 1579

2007: 1130 through november, projected symmetrically 1241.

 

That is a pretty steep drop in crime 35% in two years.

>He wrote that any streetcar money should instead be given to Police Chief Tom Streicher and then officials should “stay out of the way and let him do his job.”

 

People are flat out wrong when they suggest more funding for police inevitably lowers crime. What you get is people with seniority sitting behind more desks. If more people are walking on the street, violent crimes are less likely to occur.

Come on Randy, he's just trying to make a point.  Until the city is serious about the crime problem in OTR, not many people are going to support trolleys running through it.

 

I don't see how this council has not taken crime seriously over the past few years.  Do note that the solid drops in crime across the city have not even seen the impact of the Boston-esque program that the city has employed.  That program will have a much more long-standing impact and really solve the problem at its core.

Hey, great response to Bronson and O'Toole, John.  I do have to point out though, as someone who spends many weeks a year in Portland on business, that their traffic is pretty rough.  I don't know if it's quite Manhattan or LA bad, but it's not pleasant.  All the more reason for them to keep working to perfect their wonderful rail system. 

 

Also, I highly recommend that anyone interested take John up on his offer to visit Portland in February.  I haven't been on that trip myself, but I've ridden their transit system many times and its always been a great experience.  Portland is also a gorgeous city, and is totally worth the trip.

 

Always good for quotes of pith and outrage, Hamilton County Prosecutor Joe Deters has again turned his words about crime against Cincinnati and its leaders, writing in a magazine that he wouldn't even let his teenaged son go to the Main Street entertainment district.

 

Should he really allow his teenaged son to go to a bar district anywhere?  Am I missing something here?

As Deters said,  “it doesn’t matter where you move the fountain. One punk with a gun can ruin everything.”

 

Come on Randy, he's just trying to make a point.  Until the city is serious about the crime problem in OTR, not many people are going to support trolleys running through it.

 

You're right, Deters is trying to make a point, and that point is that he doesn't respect the average voter.*  The streetcar is about the crime problem in Over-the-Rhine, because derelict and abandoned properties attract crime.  Over-the-Rhine was systematically disinvested in for nearly thirty years (along with nearly every other urban area in the U.S.).  The City is taking the opportunity to put money into an under utilized resource, the largest concentration of 19th century Italianate buildings in the country.

 

In addition the streetcar is a capital expense.  Money from the capital budget is seperate from those of the operating budget (something that the Police Department largely falls under).  Tax-increment financing can't be used to fund the police.  The streetcar is not taking away money from any traditional crime reduction initiatives.  Likewise, there isn't a set amount of funds for government (or for private business, for that matter).  Funding one project doesn't imply a reduction of any other project.  This is the same sort of mistaken reasoning that leads to laws like France's 35 hour work week.

 

*(Clearly Deters was trying to make a rhetorical point, and rally his supporters in some manner.  Whether or not this is a successful tactic is questionable.  Why he thinks that slamming the streetcar in the media serves the citizens of Hamilton County, or is within his purview as Prosecuting Attorney of said county, isn't clear).

Should he really allow his teenaged son to go to a bar district anywhere?  Am I missing something here?

 

 

I thought the same thing.  What an idiot!

 

*CAUTION* - Typ. Cincinnati Political 3 Ring Circus Ahead!

I kind of think Deters' comments helps us with thoughtful people. He really jumped the shark here.

 

We must have a real project if he's wanting to spend this much of his political capital on it.

Should he really allow his teenaged son to go to a bar district anywhere?  Am I missing something here?

 

 

I thought the same thing.   What an idiot!

 

 

Are there not teen clubs on Main Street?  So who's the idiot?

WOW Randy, you broke the 3 minute response that time!!!

dan, whats your beef with rando anyway?  Even I have been getting annoyed with it!

 

 

I posted 2 comments last night, and he was right there waiting to respond.  What's his beef with me? 

I won't let my wife go down alone for her work during the day

  I feel sorry for her. I love when my wife supports OTR and I encourage her to go there and shop.  In fact she brought me back Shadeau bread from her morning walk.  :-P 

I posted 2 comments last night, and he was right there waiting to respond.  What's his beef with me?

 

I make lots of posts...

>kind of think Deters' comments helps us with thoughtful people. He really jumped the shark here.

 

I heard from someone who has known Joe Deters since he was 14 (went to St. X with him) that he was being prepped to run for governor of Ohio, but a few years back something went bad with his group and so he and they fell out of favor of the Republican Party.  So when he jokes he's "not running for mayor", he's more or less lying.  Being "tough on crime" is always an appeal to the white suburban voters of Hamilton County, who are the people who would form his base in a run for state office.     

 

 

>People are flat out wrong when they suggest more funding for police inevitably lowers crime.

 

More police = more arrests, not necessarily less crime.  Case in point?  When I went to OU, occasionally the Athens Police Department would scrape together an extra $15,000 to hire 100 off-duty officers from surrounding rural communities to come in and kick ass at the spring street parties.  In 2004 there were literally 3 officers standing in front of each of the 30 houses on Palmer St., along with a cavalry numbering 10 or 12.  The result?  Over 100 arrests.  And the Athens News reported that one group of officers were seen licking whipped cream off the legs of coeds.  The next year the APD didn't have the funding, had about 15 police officers down there, and only made 20 arrests even though the crowd was the same size.  And arrests for what?  Underaged drinking, open container citations, things that aren't even illegal in most countries.  That's all revenue for the police. 

 

The urban situation is really not much different -- all of the drugs that are now illegal were once legal but increased stakes have caused the street prices to go up and the severity of drug-related crime.  The silver lining of the drug war is that if you aren't involved in drugs, you have almost zero risk of being the victim of a violent crime. 

 

 

>Are there not teen clubs on Main Street?

 

Who remembers when spinal meningitis broke out at Zavo's Teen Club up in West Chester back around 1995?

 

 

Should he really allow his teenaged son to go to a bar district anywhere?  Am I missing something here?

 

 

I thought the same thing.   What an idiot!

 

 

 

Are there not teen clubs on Main Street?  So who's the idiot?

 

 

I apologise there big DANB!       I THOUGHT I remember reading he had a 16 yr old. (not in the article above) 

I sure don't know ANY clubs that accommodate that age.  (18 and up sure.)

Sorry I am not a teenie club bopper.

 

Somebodies panties are riding up into never, never land though!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Take a deep breath!   Say this aloud three times - "3,2,1,1,2,3 What the hell is bothering me"

Should he really allow his teenaged son to go to a bar district anywhere?  Am I missing something here?

 

 

I thought the same thing.   What an idiot!

 

 

Are there not teen clubs on Main Street?  So who's the idiot?

 

No, there are not teen clubs on Main Street. 

 

 

He refers to the streetcar proposal as the last in a long line of bad ideas from City Hall. He wrote that any streetcar money should instead be given to Police Chief Tom Streicher and then officials should stay out of the way and let him do his job.

 

Apparently Streicher doesn't want more money.  He just returned $2 million to the city stating that he didn't need it.

I apologize, I guess the teen clubs are NEAR Main St.

 

Last Updated: 8:14 am | Sunday, November 11, 2007

 

Teen crowds force street closure

OVER-THE-RHINE Dozens of teens gathered in Over-the-Rhines Main Street night club area late Sunday, forcing Cincinnati police to call in extra help and temporarily closing off streets.

 

I remember this incident (I live near the area).  If I remember correctly, the club did not have the proper license to host teens.  That's why the teens were outside and not in some club.

^yup and Deters is mad that the jail tax didn't pass so he's pressing the issue trying to make everyone think that crime is getting worse and a jail is needed so the next time it is on the ballot it gets passed.

^ are you mad that the jail tax didn't pass?  I think everyone should be mad about it.

^ are you mad that the jail tax didn't pass?  I think everyone should be mad about it.

 

I am worried that the jail tax didn't pass. 

They need to stop sending people to jail for petty offenses that aren't violent or imposing on the rights of others. It's a waste of time and money for everybody and the police state that exists does little to make people feel empowered. They need to re-evaluate government's basic principles of what constitutes justice and fairness. Our crime rates are down and we didn't need a new jail to do it.

A new jail isn't going to solve\reduce crime.....if it is....I would like to know how?  It's just a matter of time until that jail is full and we are back to square one.

We probably should move some of this to the crime thread.....

^Good idea, Melanie. Deters has had this group playing his game all day.

 

>Are there not teen clubs on Main Street?

 

Who remembers when spinal meningitis broke out at Zavo's Teen Club up in West Chester back around 1995?

 

 

Me.  I used to go there.  Holy Chit! I forgot about that place!!!

Damn, I was a bit slow on the whole "OTR is crime infested" article. Let me just comment that Hamilton County Prosecutor Joe Deters has done a relatively poor fact finding job, given that OTR's crime rate has declined over the past four years and is on average for many other metropolitan areas across the United States. Adding to that, you had government projects which were some of the most visible failures of HUD and a neglect by all forms of government for forty years, it's no wonder why crime was so concentrated.

 

DanB, I surmise that you are wholly opposed to the streetcar proposal? Do you suggest that we heed Joe's comments and just let him come in there blazing guns, shooting down crime wherever he perceives it to be at? And have you walked around downtown and OTR in the past few years?

Deters has probably never stepped on a bus or used any form of public transit in his life and has the gall to act as if it's somehow beneath him.  My only questions for people like him are these:  Why don't you want the rest of us to have more options? Why do you want to "chain" us to a gasoline pump? Why do you want the rest of us to be spending an amount of our family income on owning and operating a motor vehicle that is second only to keeping a roof over our heads?

 

 

Well, like Dan stated: "No, but I believe he knows a thing or two about crime, and no one is talking about non violent black people!"

 

It's the apparent view on racism and/or classism, noted by Kevin Lang and Janet Currie in their respective books, "Poverty and Discrimination" and "The Invisible Safety Net." (Yes, I refer to those books a lot but they offer a lot of information in regards to public policy and housing.) Why do you think that so many refuse to ride public transport (e.g. bus, streetcar, etc.)? They feel that they would have to sit next to an African-American, which would somehow entice more crime along the route and cause terrible chaos.

 

Remember that article or comment that was made in regards to a streetcar leading to more crime along its route in OTR? It's for the exact same reason. Some people aren't opposed strictly to a streetcar, they are opposed to the apparent effects of a streetcar (or replace it with your favourite form of public transport), exaggerated greatly by ignorant comments from those like Joe Deters who, for the life of him, cannot look up a few basic sources that show that OTR's crime rate has fallen dramatically.

 

Yes, it is higher than other areas -- like your cul-de-sac, but after many years of neglect, warehousing of minorities and those of lower-income, etc. -- what did you think would happen?

^ are you mad that the jail tax didn't pass?  I think everyone should be mad about it.

 

So let me get this right.  You're mad that the Hamilton County Jail Tax didn't pass, and for that reason, you are against the City of Cincinnati building a streetcar.  It seems it's all sour grapes, that you're particularly annoyed that the streetcar has the support the jail initiative didn't.  Does the fact that two different constituencies voting on two substantially different proposals with obviously different ends lead you at all to consider that they might have nothing to do with one another?  It's a poor politician like Deters who blames the voters when he can't convince them to pass the initiatives he trumpets.

 

We probably should move some of this to the crime thread.....

 

^Good idea, Melanie. Deters has had this group playing his game all day.

 

A legitimate suggestion, since there doesn't seem to be much of a connection between crime and the streetcar.  But since the (non)issue has been raised, why not let it resolve itself of its own volition?  I'm sure once some new substantive development involving the streetcar comes about, the discussion will proceed to that.  By the way, John Schneider, is the 12th Street/Central Parkway alignment a given?  It still seems to me that a Central Parkway only orientation would be better.  Of course one would have to refurbish the median on CP and get rid of all those turning lanes to do it right.

^I think the Central Parkway/12th alignment is pretty much baked in the cake. My guess is the only possible case for changing it would be to move the couplet further north to try to spread the beneifts deeper into OTR. But that would be up to OTR interests to work out. I really think the current alignment is very good, and it was not hastily arrived at.

Deters has probably never stepped on a bus or used any form of public transit in his life and has the gall to act as if it's somehow beneath him.  My only questions for people like him are these:  Why don't you want the rest of us to have more options? Why do you want to "chain" us to a gasoline pump? Why do you want the rest of us to be spending an amount of our family income on owning and operating a motor vehicle that is second only to keeping a roof over our heads?

 

 

 

Simple, because a significant amount of money comes into gov't coffers from "crimes" committed in cars.  Speeding, etc.

 

:-P

A legitimate suggestion, since there doesn't seem to be much of a connection between crime and the streetcar.  But since the (non)issue has been raised, why not let it resolve itself of its own volition?  I'm sure once some new substantive development involving the streetcar comes about, the discussion will proceed to that.  By the way, John Schneider, is the 12th Street/Central Parkway alignment a given?  It still seems to me that a Central Parkway only orientation would be better.  Of course one would have to refurbish the median on CP and get rid of all those turning lanes to do it right.

 

I think a 12th/14th alignment is much better than a 12th/Central Parkway alignment...furthermore I think it would be a bad idea totally to just have the alignment on Central Parkway alone.  The idea with streetcars is to connect as many dots (points of interest) as possible.  That could be residents, venues, shopping, dining, etc.  Central Parkway offers very little in that sense.  There is a large clustering a residential on the Northern side of Central Parkway, but those individuals would be 1 block away from the route on 12th Street and still be connected.

 

The difference that 14th offers over Central Parkway is that you push the route further North on Main Street (more dots), and then run in E/W along a street that connects even more residential (and potential residential) than the Central Parkway option.

 

Additionally, you will be able to help stretch out that progress that has been made in the Gateway Quarter and provide a spark for more phases of development.  Like I said, I just don't see the comparative gains along Central Parkway...although it would probably be better preserved for something like lightrail if that were to come into play.

^ are you mad that the jail tax didn't pass?  I think everyone should be mad about it.

 

So let me get this right.  You're mad that the Hamilton County Jail Tax didn't pass, and for that reason, you are against the City of Cincinnati building a streetcar.  It seems it's all sour grapes, that you're particularly annoyed that the streetcar has the support the jail initiative didn't.  Does the fact that two different constituencies voting on two substantially different proposals with obviously different ends lead you at all to consider that they might have nothing to do with one another?  It's a poor politician like Deters who blames the voters when he can't convince them to pass the initiatives he trumpets.

 

 

Why would you want to put words in my mouth?  I didn't bring up the jail tax.  I just asked the questions.  I've even said on here that I could support the trolley system.  All I've said is that I think the city has bigger problems than spending millions on this system.  I understand the different constituencies and the two substantially different proposals.  Spare me your lecture.

I think the advantage of Central Parkway is that it is more visible, but there might still be the ordinance in effect that bans streetcars on Central Parkway, leftover from its construction in 1928. 

I think Prospecthillians will use it more if it ran on 12th rather than central parkway. I know I would if I use it to get to Findlay Market.

Why do you think that so many refuse to ride public transport (e.g. bus, streetcar, etc.)? They feel that they would have to sit next to an African-American, which would somehow entice more crime along the route and cause terrible chaos.

 

I'm not sure about that.  I think a lot of people in this region just don't have much experience with mass transit and lack vision to see how it could change our city for the better.  This region has long grown without rail, so "connecting all of the dots" would be pretty much impossible.  That is all they see, so they think rail is a waste of money.  What they don't understand is that over time, the region will change and grow along those rail lines, just as it has around expressway exits.  So light rail and streetcars may not seem ideal for Cincinnati 2007, but if we build them, they'll be essential for living in Cincinnati 2030 or 2050. 

 

People view mass transit as dirty.  This is because most people (especially around here) have only ridden on buses, and let's face it, buses are typically loud and filthy.  So they naturally assume that all public transportation will be filthy and unpleasant as well.  They've never ridden a nice, clean, quiet, streetcar system like Portland has.  We're basically going to have to get that first line built to change this perception.

 

Also, OTR has only recently started to turn around.  I never had any interest in going into OTR until the last few years.  It didn't have anything to do with the ethnicity of the majority of the residents.  It was solely because there was no reason to ever go there.  Now that shops are opening and new developments are bringing in more residents, OTR is an actual destination.  The problem is that perception typically lags behind progress.  With a few more years of development and positive changes, public perception of that neighborhood and projects associated with it (ie, the streetcar) will change.

 

I guess what I'm getting at is that there are many reasons why people are skeptical about streetcars and lightrail that don't have anything to do with racism.  I don't think that most people wouldn't ride a streetcar because "they feel that they would have to sit next to an African-American", any more than they wouldn't stand in line at a deli next to an African-American.  I think that they just live in a city that already functions well enough for them without rail, and then they see a huge price tag and they say "why bother?".  If rail already existed in this town, these same people would likely utilize it, at least occasionally.  It's the fear of "big government spending"; wasted funds a project that might not work, that makes most people opposed to adding better mass transit, not racism.  To be honest, I understand where they're coming from.  The people in this country already get hit with federal income tax, state income tax, county income tax, city income tax, property tax, gasoline tax, sales tax, capital gains tax, social security tax, and medicare tax.  There's even tax on our cable and cell phone bills.  And there are quite a few more that I haven't mentioned.  These things add up to a LARGE amount of our paycheck that the government(s) get their hands on.  So it's only natural for people to assume that the money for a new project like rail is going to eventually come out of their pockets in one way or another.  Luckily, as a rail proponent, I can see that this streetcar plan won't raise anyone's taxes, and will be funded mainly by tax revenue from the increased property values along the line.  That, in my opinion, is the main reason why people don't want to build new rail systems.  And that misconception is what we need to combat most to get this streetcar built.

I've even said on here that I could support the trolley system.

 

It's a streetcar, not a trolley.

^ What is a trolley?  Technically speaking, that is.  I'd love to be able to correct people when they misuse that term, but I want to be able to do so with actual knowledge, not just to be a jerk.

^ What is a trolley?  Technically speaking, that is.  I'd love to be able to correct people when they misuse that term, but I want to be able to do so with actual knowledge, not just to be a jerk.

 

Happy to oblige  :-)

 

trolley

     n : a wheeled vehicle that runs on rails and is propelled by

         electricity: "`tram' and `tramcar' are British terms"

         [syn: streetcar, tram, tramcar, trolley car]

 

 

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

 

Trolley \Trol"ley\, Trolly \Trol"ly\, n.

   (a) A form of truck which can be tilted, for carrying

       railroad materials, or the like. [Eng.]

   (b) A narrow cart that is pushed by hand or drawn by an

       animal. [Eng.]

   © (Mach.) A truck from which the load is suspended in some

       kinds of cranes.

   (d) (Electric Railway) A truck which travels along the fixed

       conductors, and forms a means of connection between them

       and a railway car.

 

*************************************************

 

streetcar

    n : a wheeled vehicle that runs on rails and is propelled by

        electricity: "`tram' and `tramcar' are British terms"

        [syn: tram, tramcar, trolley, trolley car]

 

^ What is a trolley?  Technically speaking, that is.  I'd love to be able to correct people when they misuse that term, but I want to be able to do so with actual knowledge, not just to be a jerk.

 

Essentially a trolley is a vintage type streetcar (ala San Francisco).  Modern streetcars serve the same purpose but have a much better functionality in terms of being handicap accessible, quicker/easier loading and unloading, sleeker look/feel, etc.

 

When people use the term trolley it is almost always used in a derogatory sense.  Essentially downplaying the potential affects of what a streetcar actually does by relating the project to something more nostalgic and less functional/beneficial.