January 16, 200817 yr Now that shops are opening and new developments are bringing in more residents, OTR is an actual destination. Yes, anybody notice that the I-471 Liberty st exit now has "Findlay Market" signage? Pretty awesome! To me, using the word Trolley, is a derogatory term and is quite often used by anti-streetcar people.
January 16, 200817 yr "I think a 12th/14th alignment is much better than a 12th/Central Parkway alignment' 14th Street will not work. 14th is only two lanes. 12th and 13th are much wider and more appropriate. 13th could work pretty well, but it runs west, and would result in running through the park to Music Hall, which I think would be cool, but could have practical diffuculties that I am unaware of.
January 16, 200817 yr Glad you guys think you know what I'm thinking.... I like to call it a trolley, I think it sounds much more exciting than streetcar. San Diego calls their system a trolley, and its not the SF kind. Read the Trolley fact sheet: http://www.sdmts.com/MTS/MediaCenter.asp The San Diego Trolley is known for its reliability, safety, and convenience. Often called San Diego's "moving landmark", the Trolley is also a fun way to get around, whether commuting to work, traveling to the International Border, or heading to Centre City's shopping, restaurants, harbor and historic attractions. The San Diego Trolley now serves historic Old Town, California's birthplace, as well as Mission Valley, Fashion Valley, and Qualcomm Stadium at Jack Murphy Field. Charlotte: Charlotte Trolley, A private, nonprofit organization dedicated to returning electric streetcar operation to the streets of Charlotte.
January 16, 200817 yr well I am glad you enjoy calling it a trolley, but its not a trolley, its a streetcar. If SD wants to call their system a trolley, then thats fine, but cincinnati's going with streetcar, thus its a streetcar. get in line :whip:
January 16, 200817 yr I thought that the word "trolley" is derived from the word "trawler," which is the device that connects the vehicle to the overhead wire. "Trolley" is a legal word used in the Ohio Revised Code. A "trackless trolley" is an electric bus that runs on overhead wires with a trawler. Examples of streetcars that are not trolleys are horse-drawn cars and cable cars.
January 16, 200817 yr If anyone calls it a trolley, they're most likely choosing that word for its negative connotation, as it sounds "outdated". Streets and cars are a part of our daily life in 2008; thus, streetcar is a better word to use when promoting streetcars.
January 16, 200817 yr From: The Ohio Museum of Transportation Cincinnati Trolley Coaches Cincinnati operated trolley coaches from 1936 through 1965. Already noted for it's dual overhead streetcar operations, trolley coaches were a natural addition and required virtually no additional costs other than the price of the cars. The dual overhead was in place due to the inherent problem of current leakage which could play havoc with the underground city infrastructure including buried telephone lines. As far back as 1891, the streetcar system in Cincinnati was mostly dual overhead as the one of the primary early operators of the lines also owned the local telephone company. As it was less expensive to string an extra overhead line than ensure all rails were properly bonded to prevent current leakage, the makings of the trolley coach system were in place and ready for the first day of service in 1936. Although the dual overhead was in place, all overhead switches did need to be replaced however so the cars could utilize them without problems. Trolley coach service started on December 1, 1936 on a test route. The #15 Clark St.-Chase was the streetcar route selected for the trial project. All overhead special work was replaced so the trolley coach could operate and the service commenced using ten 40 passenger Twin Coach 41RWFT's and seven 40 passenger Mack CR3S's. Even though the system was already strung with dual overhead, there were sometimes problems. Over the two years the pilot program was in place, the trolley coaches were sometimes used for charter service and did have difficulty on the rest of the system. In addition there were places that the streetcars operated on a private right of way and additional wiring needed to be strung so the trolley coaches could operate along with moving some wires closer to the curb. The other unique thing about Cincinnati's overhead was that it was 18" spacing as opposed to the 24" spacing considered standard and utilized round wire instead of the more common grooved wire utilized by many transit systems. The trial period ended successfully, even with the few quirks that were inherent in the system, with the addition of a second line, the #64 McMicken-Main line. This was added on October 9, 1938. Additional trolley coaches were already in the system, being added during the time of the trial project and included five 40 passenger Twin Coach 41RTT's and six used 40 passenger Twin Coach 40TT's from Detroit. Additional routes and trolley coaches were added in 1943 with the addition of six 43 passenger Twin Coach 44GTT's, in 1945 with the addition of six 44 passenger Pullman 44AS-100-44CX's and in 1946 with the addition of thirty 44 passenger St Louis Car Co units. The big push on conversions happened in 1947 however. In 1947, six routes were converted over. The #69 Madisonville line on July 6, 1947, the #44-46-53 Highland-Auburn lines on August 17, 1947 and the #27-28 East End lines on September 28, 1947. Forty-five 44 passenger Marmon Harrington TC44's were brought in for these conversions. Three more routes followed in 1948 with the #31 Crosstown line bring converted on April 11, 1948, the #16 Colerain line on June 6, 1948 and the #17 College Hill line on June 27, 1948. 1948 also saw a large purchase of trolley coaches with thirty 44 passenger St Louis Car Co units and three orders of 48 passenger Marmon Harrington TC48's totaling 59 units. In 1949, eight more lines were converted. The #8 South Norwood on January 1, 1949, the #60-62 Fairview-Ohio lines and the #61 Clifton-Ludlow line were converted on March 6, 1949 and the #47 Winton Place line on April 17, 1949. On July 24, 1949 the #4 Kennedy Heights, #7 North Norwood and #10 Vine-Woodburn lines were converted. There were also sixty-five more 48 passenger Marmon Harrington TC48's purchased. At the end of 1949, 229 trolley coaches were in service in Cincinnati. Also at this time, a decision was made to eliminate the remaining streetcar system. In 1950 the #68 Delta line was converted and finally in 1951, the remaining streetcar lines saw conversion. The #32 Price Hill and #36 Warsaw went under the conversion in early 1951 and the final routes converted to trolley coaches occurred on April 29, 1951. The final converted routes were the #21 Westwood-Cheviot and the #55 Vine-Clifton. Additional trolley coaches were brought in during 1951 with the arrival of forty-five 48 passenger Marmon Harrington TC48's. While all these trolley coach conversions were taking place, some streetcar routes were replaced by bus. The conversion of the #78 Lockland streetcar line in 1949(?) to bus proved to be the downfall of the trolley coaches in Cincinnati. The #78 was a heavy haul line and by 1952, the diesel bus proved it's versatility and cost savings so well that the management decided no further trolley coach expansions or conversion were to take place. In fact, trolley coach lines started just a few years before started to be converted to diesel operations. During the 50's and 60's, more buses arrived and trolley coaches were gradually phased out. The last trolley coach operation occurred on June 18, 1965. Some of the Cincinnati Marmon Harrington TC44 and TC48 trolley coaches continued to see service however in it's neighboring city, Dayton where they were purchased in 1964 & 1965.
January 16, 200817 yr Heres your old Trolley coach, hmmmm looks like it has tires. :-P Here's your modern Cincinnati trolley.
January 16, 200817 yr When I think of trolleys I think of Mr. Rogers neighborhood and that man scares me.
January 17, 200817 yr A Streetcar Named Ignorance BY JOHN FOX | CITYBEAT January 16, 2008 This week Hamilton County Prosecutor Joe Deters lobbed a rhetorical hand grenade into the ongoing debate over crime, punishment and law enforcement, hitting Cincinnati's political leadership and Over-the-Rhine development with shrapnel. The truth became collateral damage as well. The Cincinnati Enquirer reported Jan. 15 that Deters railed against those who failed to support November's sales tax hike that would have built a new county jail. Voters defeated the tax hike, which had moral and financial support from the Republican, Democratic and Charter parties and the corporate community.
January 17, 200817 yr Great article. I can't believe our prosecuting attorney would make such ignorant remarks, publicly. He's an embarassment. I wish the city could sue him for defamation out of spite :-D
January 17, 200817 yr Pretty much the epitome of a "trolley" or at least what most people think of when they hear "trolley." This is a modern streetcar, and what is being proposed for Cincinnati. Language can be a powerful tool...regardless of what definitions say or what you may or may not like. This is what we should be referring to in order to give an appropriate visual for people.
January 17, 200817 yr Author google image search, first result for trolley First result for streetcar
January 17, 200817 yr "Language can be a powerful tool...regardless of what definitions say or what you may or may not like. This is what we should be referring to in order to give an appropriate visual for people." Exactly, and that modern streetcar is what San Diego calls a trolley!!!!
January 17, 200817 yr Author and in wisconsin they call drinking fountains "bubblers", but it doesn't mean we all should
January 17, 200817 yr On a sidenote, while I agree with what was said in that article, I don't know if I can handle any more stories with headlines that are a play on "A Streetcar Named Desire". We've seen at least three of them between the Enquirer and Citybeat in the last year or two, and it's one of the least clever and unoriginal things I've encountered in a long time. Sorry. I just had to put that out there.
January 17, 200817 yr this could continue on into the Pop vs. Soda discussion... or the fact that people from northeast Ohio (around Warren/Youngstown) call shopping carts buggies. This is a ridiculous conversation and serves no purpose. Arguing semantics will prove nothing... ps- They are technically called bascarts.
January 17, 200817 yr On a sidenote, while I agree with what was said in that article, I don't know if I can handle any more stories with headlines that are a play on "A Streetcar Named Desire". We've seen at least three of them between the Enquirer and Citybeat in the last year or two, and it's one of the least clever and unoriginal things I've encountered in a long time. Sorry. I just had to put that out there. I would call you A Streetcar Named Party Pooper.
January 17, 200817 yr Author On a sidenote, while I agree with what was said in that article, I don't know if I can handle any more stories with headlines that are a play on "A Streetcar Named Desire". We've seen at least three of them between the Enquirer and Citybeat in the last year or two, and it's one of the least clever and unoriginal things I've encountered in a long time. Sorry. I just had to put that out there. amen to that, as an aside, A friend of mine said we should get some CCM students to put on one of the musical numbers from a Streetcar Named Desire at an event for some publicity. But Tennessee Williams didn't write musicals.
January 17, 200817 yr Here's the real message: • Jail overcrowding is not resulting in violent criminals being released. As Kevin Osborne points out on page 11, a new study finds that most of those jailed in Hamilton County have little or no history of committing violent crimes. • Violent crime is down across the city, particularly in District 1, which patrols downtown and Over-the-Rhine. • Over-the-Rhine is in the midst of a renewal, the latest example being Duke Energy's donation of solar panels for Findlay Market to help defray the city landmark's utility bills. • Streetcars, not "trolleys," are a proven development tool for urban centers across the U.S. • Streicher can't handle the crime-fighting funds city council already supplies him. Thank you for posting this Randy. The real message is this: Violent crime (US) Property crime (US) Crime in the US is quite high. Let's compare our homicide rate with other developed countries... Ireland .9 Norway 1.0 Germany 1.0 UK 1.4 France 1.6 Canada 1.9 US 5.5 Russia 20.15 Oh, here are more sad points about crime in the US... 1. The United States has the highest rate of incarceration at 726 prisoners per 100,000 people. We're number one!!! 2. In 2004, the nation’s prison population is counted at 1.47 million2 and the total number of people incarcerated is 2.1 million. 3. Western European nations have much lower rates, with England and Wales at 142, Germany at 96, and France at 91 per 100,000 people. 4. More than three fifths of the world’s nations have incarceration rates below 150 per 100,000 people. 5. The current rate of incarceration in the United States is higher than the Soviet Union’s in 1979, which had an incarceration rate of 660 per 100,000 people. Deters needs to get off his soap box. It is people like him that lead to results such as this above. Oops. If this is more approperiate for the Cincinnati Crime thread, feel free to move it.
January 17, 200817 yr Comparing Cincinnati to New York City is comparing apples to oranges. From what I've read, their so called effective policing strategies had little effect on crime. I would point to the insane amount of foreign investment NYC gets and Giuliani's pro-growth/lower taxes probably had more to do with it than his policing. When you count that, combined with the fact that crime lowered nationwide in the 90s during the same time, it all makes sense.
January 17, 200817 yr On a sidenote, while I agree with what was said in that article, I don't know if I can handle any more stories with headlines that are a play on "A Streetcar Named Desire". We've seen at least three of them between the Enquirer and Citybeat in the last year or two, and it's one of the least clever and unoriginal things I've encountered in a long time. Sorry. I just had to put that out there. amen to that, as an aside, A friend of mine said we should get some CCM students to put on one of the musical numbers from a Streetcar Named Desire at an event for some publicity. But Tennessee Williams didn't write musicals. But The Simpsons did. And they named the episode, "A Streetcar Named Marge": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Streetcar_Named_Marge The opening song (titled, "New Orleans", I believe) starts out with the line, "Long before the Superdome/where the Saints of football play". Exemplifies the best of the show when it was still funny.
January 17, 200817 yr I know most of you guys don't like to talk about the old streetcars but here are some cool pics I found laying around. Just spreading the streetcar love F-Deters! :-D These shots blow me away when I see them. My Father grew up in Brighton in the 40's-50s and he always recounts memories of the wonderful streetcars. Here is Brighton corner in it's heyday. This was the busiest streetcar area in the system. The streamlined bright yellow PCC cars, they are the sexiest of all. http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/Hakaida/IMG_2827.jpg?t=1200588901 The Art Deco Masterpiece, Western Hills Viaduct was built specifically for streetcars. http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/Hakaida/IMG_2828.jpg?t=1200589987 Cool shot of the PCC car making it's way up the Mt Adams incline http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/Hakaida/IMG_2829.jpg?t=1200589610 Lastly, This is 5th and Vine Downtown Who wants a ride??? (notice DanB's Evil Trolley Coach in the distance) http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/Hakaida/IMG_2830.jpg?t=1200591720 The modern streetcars are really nice and user friendly. I rode the streetcars in San Fransisco, Hiroshima Japan and Toronto and have had the streetcar bug ever since. It would incredible to have them back in Cincinnati again. Keep up the good work guys!
January 17, 200817 yr Author It is important to remember that modern streetcar use only a single overhead wire, unlike the older streetcars. Sometimes, the wires don't even show up in pictures of modern streetcars
January 17, 200817 yr Where is Brighton corner? I can't figure it out from the picture, although I have a good idea.
January 17, 200817 yr Where is Brighton corner? I can't figure it out from the picture, although I have a good idea. Central Ave, Colerain and Harrison. Close to the Mockbee on Central Parkway
January 17, 200817 yr i'd love to see more old pics of the old cincy streetcar system. I've looked online, but everywhere I've looked the pics aren't very good. I'd also like to find some nice old maps of the system with streets labeled and routes marked.
January 17, 200817 yr Author the best info on the old system is in a series of 10 books that can be found at the ohio book store on main st.
January 17, 200817 yr Thanks maximillian. I've definately seen that site before. I'm not a huge fan of the map because of where the "seams" or breaks are. But it works.
January 19, 200817 yr Looks like the Phoenix area is having problems with their rail line. The powers that be in Cincy better have perfect execution or the "trolley" critics will be out in force. "The Valley's light-rail starter line has broken in nearly a dozen places including this break in Tempe, near 3rd Street and Ash Avenue . In mid-December, workers discovered 11 breaks in the line, running from First Avenue and Fillmore in Phoenix to Apache Boulevard and Martin Lane in Tempe. The gaps range in size from half an inch to 7 inches, and have been found primarily around storm drains that Metro built into the line. - Charlie Leight/The Arizona Republic" I hope to get some pics when I'm out there in March and, even better, ride it from the airport when it's up and running in December 2008.
January 19, 200817 yr Looks like they got some cheap steel....maybe with cooper in it - which would make it brittle.
January 19, 200817 yr ^My guess is, theyy installed these sections on the hottest days last summer -- these are very long sections of continuous rail -- and now they have contracted in the coldest temperatures and broken apart at the weakest points. Just a wild guess. I don't think the rail gets all the way to Sky Harbor Airport. It misses by a half-mile or so, I think. The route could have changed, but that was what they were talking about originally.
January 22, 200817 yr Author www.cincinnati.blogspot.com Monday, January 21, 2008 Are Streetcars The Answer? I'm Not Convinced. I realize that I can openly disagree with Brian only so many times before I wear out my welcome, but I have to admit, I'm not sure that streetcars are the panacea that will revitalize downtown and Over-the-Rhine. It seems that everyone who has jumped onto the streetcar bandwagon wants to remind us what a great boon they've been in Portland, Oregon. Well, bully for Portland! I grew up in Buffalo, NY. And the streetcar fervor in Cincinnati sounds much like what we were told about a new subway in Buffalo when I was growing up. It'll spur economic development, people said. It will attract new businesses downtown and everywhere along the subway line, people said. Guess what? Buffalo's subway system has been open since 1984. Does anybody think Buffalo represents a model of economic development? And quite frankly, from a demographic and cultural standpoint, which city does Cincinnati more closely resemble: Buffalo or Portland? Why do people think that what was good for Portland of the Pacific Northwest will be good for Cincinnati, in the heart of the Midwest? Here are some statistics to show the differences: Population: Cincinnati--332,252; Portland--537,081 Median income: Cincinnati--$29,554; Portland--$42,287 Racial composition: Cincinnati--52% white, 49% black; Portland--75% white, 6% hispanic, 6% black Average number of days with high temparature above 90: Cincinnati--28; Portland--10. Average number of days with low temperature below 32: Cincinnati--98; Portland--44. Average snowfall: Cincinnati--23 inches; Portland--3.1 inches. Average price for a gallon of gasoline: Cincinnati--$2.87; Portland--$2.97. Streetcars may be a good idea. But lately, some have suggested that they're the most important piece of the puzzle to development in Cincinnati. That's going too far. The City's most impressive piece of real estate--the Banks--has sat empty for years because our local leaders can't get their acts together. And OTR residents are still in need of more places to work, shop, and play. Without strong, competent leadership, streetcars won't do the city a bit of good. And we seem to have leaders who are great at talking about things, but not so good at seeing them through. Doing the homework to get things done seems to be more than many of our politicians want to do. Does anyone else remember that when the street car plan was rolled out at a Council meeting (a committee meeting, I think), Chris Bortz went so far as to say that the City wouldn't even have to pay to have the electrical lines (that would power the streetcars) to be installed, as the utility companies would no doubt do it free of charge, realizing how much money the streetcars would bring in from revenues from new businesses? And does anyone else remember the Enquirer reporting the next day that a spokesperson from Duke Energy indicated that they hadn't been approached about that, and that it would cost so much the company would be unwilling to absorb the cost on its own? Urban planning and economic development is tough stuff. We need people in our leadership who want to roll up their sleeves, not just be on television as often as possible. Streetcars might be one piece in a very complex puzzle that will help Cincinnati be prosperous. But a solution in and of themselves? Color me decidedly undecided.
January 22, 200817 yr And OTR residents are still in need of more places to work, shop, and play. What an idiot. There is a gazillion things to do within walking distance of OTR. The streetcar will be the greatest thing to happen to OTR since Christian Moerlein started brewing here in the back of his blacksmith shop.
January 22, 200817 yr Hmm why don't he compares densities? Both cities are the exact same. The population number is larger for Portland only because it has double the square miles in it's city limits. What's up with the temperature thing? Why doesn't He consider the cost of living when he refers to the medium income levels???
January 22, 200817 yr Urban planning and economic development is tough stuff. We need people in our leadership who want to roll up their sleeves, not just be on television as often as possible. Streetcars might be one piece in a very complex puzzle that will help Cincinnati be prosperous. But a solution in and of themselves? Color me decidedly undecided. Well then why don't you listen to the Urban Planners and Economic Development professionals...there are very few that I have run into that aren't supportive of this plan.
January 22, 200817 yr Everyone who studies rail transit in the U.S. knows that Buffalo's line is the worst performing project that opened in the 1980's. The population of the city free-fell during construction of the line. Still, a city with half the population of Cincinnati's metro has a 6+ mile transit line with a 5 mile subway tunnel connecting its downtown and university serving 20,000+ riders per day but here the two mile distance between downtown and UC is insurmountable, and tunneling is somehow unaffordable here. A similar line here would be on the surface from Fountain Square to roughly Mt. Auburn, then underground all the way north of the Norwood Lateral. And we all know such a line in Cincinnati would attract double or triple the ridership of Buffalo. SUNY Buffalo has 10,000 fewer students than UC, there is no other university like Xavier on the line, and no hospital complex.
January 22, 200817 yr I think it's a hoot when people suggest that Portland's weather is one of the reasons why it is so successful.
January 22, 200817 yr I think it's a hoot when people suggest that Portland's weather is one of the reasons why it is so successful. You would think that worse weather would actually help out ridership...
January 22, 200817 yr That's what he was inferring. Portland always seems gloomy and rainy :) No its not...the guy cited Cincinnati has having more snow and overall colder weather.
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