February 8, 200817 yr I'll go ahead and play the Hyde Park card. Look it is all fine and good to spread the wealth, but that tends to up with a number of places with okay development rather than a few spots with great development. There is already something good at Ludlow which isn't the case in Corryville hasn't been for fifteen years. Clifton could really become 'the' next hot spot with the streetcar tying it into the rest of uptown while the streetcar would just get Corryville back to even. In the end, I guess I'm also willing to sacrifice weaker neighborhoods for stronger ones.
February 8, 200817 yr Corryville would definitely yield more bang for the buck from a development standpoint, since there's more unutilized space there. But here's something else to consider. Corryville, and the rest of Uptown besides Clifton, are eligible for New Market Tax Credits. Actually, the census tract with the south side of Ludlow as it's northern boundary is as well, but it's functionally not. At any rate, just putting it out there that NMTCs can be used to spur development in Corryville. Whether you think that means it makes more sense to put the streetcar there as well, to really stimulate the market, or to send it down Clifton to Ludlow, to encourage more development where that tax credit tool isn't available, probably depends on where you're sitting.
February 8, 200817 yr But here's something else to consider. Corryville, and the rest of Uptown besides Clifton, are eligible for New Market Tax Credits. Actually, the census tract with the south side of Ludlow as it's northern boundary is as well, but it's functionally not. Good point.
February 8, 200817 yr Mayor Mallory clarifies position on streetcars: http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/gov/2008/02/mallory-on-streetcars.asp#comments
February 8, 200817 yr Reading their comments make me sick. I can name so much "waste" in their necks of the woods. Liberty Interchange? 75 Widening through Butler / Warren County? People need to open their eyes in the burbs. Perhaps $6 gas will do such a thing... when does the petroleum problem go from being a nuisance to a huge problem? It may be sooner than we all think. Think multimodally, think creatively, think intelligently.
February 9, 200817 yr I redrew the phase II routing on a map instead of the satellite image. This map does a better job identifying the various things along the routes. I agree that a line on Jefferson cutting through the Zoo's parking lot would seem to work well. I'll reiterate that I think the zoo needs to be a destination regardless in order to build support for funding phase II.
February 9, 200817 yr Mayor Mallory clarifies position on streetcars: http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/gov/2008/02/mallory-on-streetcars.asp#comments I'll say it again. The difference in focus and political risk in Cincinnati between the Luken/Lemmie administration that was in place just three years ago and the Mallory/Dohoney administration of today is revolutionary. I don't think I'm overselling it when I say it is better than ten Superbowls, all being played at the same time. Jmeck, how would that Zoo to Jefferson connection work? Isn't there a hollow in between the parking lot and Ruther Ave, or has that been filled in? Also, would there be no parking on Ruther?
February 9, 200817 yr Mayor Mallory clarifies position on streetcars: http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/gov/2008/02/mallory-on-streetcars.asp#comments Oh, I love getting these people rowwed up!
February 10, 200817 yr The sharp gully between Vine and Ruther has been completely filled in. A level parking lot stretches from Vine all the way to Ruther, and Ruther descends to meet the level of the parking lot right at the latitude of Erkenbrecher (it is substantially above the level of the parking lot at the same level as Shields and Louis). They could run tracks right off Ruther just south of Cloister onto that parking lot and across to the zoo with virtually no grading. This image is not up to date...everything is now paved: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=cincinnati&ie=UTF8&ll=39.141894,-84.51014&spn=0.003653,0.008583&t=h&z=17&om=0
February 10, 200817 yr jmeck, Does your concept include double tracking on Short Vine, University, Eden, and Erckenbrecher? It seems like it would be a tough fit on some of those streets/ROWs. Double tracking would be easy on Clifton and possibly Eden, but the others I'm not so sure...the Calhoun/McMillan routing seems to make a lot of sense.
February 10, 200817 yr Short Vine is wider than the standard 66ft. wide street (including the rest of Vine St.), whoever did the surveying for Corryville way back around 1820 or 1830 loosely alternated the north/south streets between exceptionally wide and exceptionally narrow. The main ? is Eden north of Goodman, where still running on the Eden alignment does little to boost ridership and much to complicate litigation with UC Med Center. The line could deflect back to Vine on Goodman, then run on the east side of Vine north to the SE corner of Vine & Erkenbrecker, although I know that the zoo has planned to build offices on that gravel lot for many years. The zoo has also been planning to build a pedestrian bridge over Vine just north of Erkenbrecker from its planned parking garage. The pedestrian bridge will be mostly for show, that intersection is just plain not busy or dangerous. Vine is basically a side street in that area.
February 10, 200817 yr City Manager Milton Dohoney on "Newsmakers" this morning, talking about the financing of the Cincinnati Streetcar: "We're not there yet."
February 10, 200817 yr Short Vine is wider than the standard 66ft. wide street (including the rest of Vine St.), whoever did the surveying for Corryville way back around 1820 or 1830 loosely alternated the north/south streets between exceptionally wide and exceptionally narrow. Yes but that is including those two nose-in parking lanes...I imagine you would get some hell from certain business owners, as well as, from some traffic engineers.
February 10, 200817 yr The saw-tooth parking is possible only because of the width of the street. Change it to typical parallel parking, you lose maybe 20 spots, but gain more than a thousand transit riders per day. I don't think even the #78 still uses Short Vine, there might not be any bus traffic on it at all now. There's nothing worse for a business district than bypassing it. Business only has to fall off by 10% or 15% for many businesses to fail. I don't care what traffic planners have to say, it's because of their zero-tolerance policies that the old parts of American cities continue to be insideously attacked. The widening of Vine between Erkenbrecker and Nixon began last week, this project will widen Vine in that area by 4 whopping feet, adding one foot to each lane. This was "necessary" for the Zoo to build it's long-planned parking garage. My old apartment was torn down for this project, now the second of my Cincinnati residences to be torn down for a road project.
February 10, 200817 yr The saw-tooth parking is possible only because of the width of the street. Change it to typical parallel parking, you lose maybe 20 spots, but gain more than a thousand transit riders per day. Well in order to get two directions of streetcar, on Short Vine, you're ultimately going to have to lose one whole side of parking regardless. The reorientation of the existing on-street parking will free up some space, but it will be a difficult task to accomplish (I think). I don't care what traffic planners have to say, it's because of their zero-tolerance policies that the old parts of American cities continue to be insideously attacked. I couldn't agree more...but you still have to deal with them whether you like them or not. Overall I just think it might be a better course to only put 1 direction of streetcar on Short Vine and then another on one of the parallel streets.
February 10, 200817 yr I don't care what traffic planners have to say, it's because of their zero-tolerance policies that the old parts of American cities continue to be insideously attacked. I couldn't agree more...but you still have to deal with them whether you like them or not. Overall I just think it might be a better course to only put 1 direction of streetcar on Short Vine and then another on one of the parallel streets. A good parallel street would/could be either Jefferson or maybe Euclid or Eden.
February 11, 200817 yr Jefferson is a no-man's land, a disaster in urban redevelopment. It's needlessly wide and UC refuses to build buildings that face it. They had numerous opportunities with new dorms built around 2000 but they made a commitment to fearing Corryville for a few more decades with their inward orientation. Some of OSU's buildings face High St., some don't, but at least there is some acknowledgement that there is a street there. Light rail was planned to emerge from the Mt. Auburn Tunnel north of Corry St. and run on the surface on the west side of the street. That's fine for light rail but the whole point of modern streetcars is for them to run down traditional commercial streets like Vine St. The property lines are 90ft. and the actual street including the diagonal parking is 66ft., or roughly 70ft. between street trees (by contrast a typical street in Cincinnati is 40ft. with 66ft. between property lines). Tons of space. And the diagonal parking only exists for the two blocks between Corry St. and Daniels. The map I drew had the streetcar on Short Vine for three blocks, that block between Daniels and University is where the fire station is, so the line could instead divert east onto Daniels instead of University. Currently cars rarely travel over 15mph on Short Vine because of the diagonal parking and the tracks could help eliminate the annoying motorcycle racing that goes on on that strip. The dots on my drawing refer to running through a redeveloped University Plaza. There is also opportunity to run underneath both McMillan and William Howard Taft via Inwood Park. The line would turn east from Vine just north of E. Hollister and travel through new underpasses, staying level since both McMillan and WH Taft are higher than the University Plaza parking lot. It avoids the climb and avoids the conflict with traffic. New topic: I also have long thought that streetcars would work better running in a pair on the west side of Clifton the whole run between Calhoun and Ludlow. This avoids interference with emergency vehicles and the many side streets on the west side of the road. They'd either run on the inside of outside of the sidewalk in front of UC and then between the sidewalk and Burnett Woods. With an underpass under Martin Luther King Drive, it would be a very safe and relatively speedy stretch of track, perhaps with another underpass under the Burnett Woods entrance. Pedestrian underpasses could be built for Hebrew Union College, Bethesda, and anywhere else that needs one. My main familiarity with streetcars is the various Green Line branches in Boston, which are technically light rail, and have extensive underground running in and approaching downtown Boston. But the surface sections are very interesting because there are many areas where the tracks are fenced off from traffic. Many stretches run fenced-in down the center of the various avenues while other stretches divide through traffic from parallel parking. There is some slow running in congested areas but the speed picks up further from the city and in the subway so it has a distinct advantage over buses. Here is footage of a line traveling down the center of the street: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF7IkDcjLN8 And refer this video to anyone concerned about bicyles:
February 11, 200817 yr The intersection of Clifton and M.L.King is one of the busiest in Cincinnati. It was proposed long ago to grade separate the two streets. The grades work out better if Clifton remains on top and an underpass for M.L.King is constructed. There is not enough room for a full, conventional interchange such as a diamond or cloverleaf. I have wondered if the situation could be improved by construction of a connector street with two signalized intersections could be done, somewhat like Kemper and Reed Hartman or East Miami River Road and Colerain. In any case, the streetcars / light rail as well as busses could pass straight through, saving a minute or more of waiting at the stop light.
February 11, 200817 yr Author When it comes to the meeting in two weeks, we need to get the crowds out. We also need to make sure to comport ourselves in a manner that makes other people want to support the project. When smelly hippies protest things by singing in three hour drum circle, they tend to alienate as many people as they influence. Look at Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., he was the most successful American political activist of the 20th century. What did he wear at nearly all times? Suit. we need to show up in force, be respectful, avoid personal acts, no booing, wear a suit. if you speak be respectful, succinct, and passionate. Afterwards, then you can break out the champagne.
February 11, 200817 yr New topic: I also have long thought that streetcars would work better running in a pair on the west side of Clifton the whole run between Calhoun and Ludlow. This avoids interference with emergency vehicles and the many side streets on the west side of the road. They'd either run on the inside of outside of the sidewalk in front of UC and then between the sidewalk and Burnett Woods. I think you mean the east side of Clifton. I am glad you brought this up, as I was thinking the same thing.
February 11, 200817 yr When it comes to the meeting in two weeks, we need to get the crowds out. We also need to make sure to comport ourselves in a manner that makes other people want to support the project. When smelly hippies protest things by singing in three hour drum circle, they tend to alienate as many people as they influence. Look at Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., he was the most successful American political activist of the 20th century. What did he wear at nearly all times? Suit. we need to show up in force, be respectful, avoid personal acts, no booing, wear a suit. if you speak be respectful, succinct, and passionate. Afterwards, then you can break out the champagne. That's excellent advice.
February 11, 200817 yr When smelly hippies protest things by singing in three hour drum circle, they tend to alienate as many people as they influence. Haha that's great! But seriously, that's a great idea. I'll be sporting the suit.
February 11, 200817 yr When smelly hippies protest things by singing in three hour drum circle, they tend to alienate as many people as they influence. Would hippies protest the streetcar? Stop the degrading remarks towards hippies. I know many that live in OTR and they are VERY pro-streetcar and will be using the system when it is up.
February 11, 200817 yr Ugh, It's so painful to read the comments on Cincinnati.com's streetcar blogs. People seem so blissfully ignorant and completely content with the status quo. And the suggestions that the streetcar money be used for other purposes such as more cops, healthcare, etc. are ludicrous, as the funding proposed for the streetcar couldn't be used in those avenues regardless. Coming back to this message board after reading those comments is like a breath of fresh air. Thanks guys!
February 11, 200817 yr Maybe we could send in some undercover smelly hippies to be all anti-streetcar and anti-urban and dance around and yell at John for a couple hours to scare off the real anti-trolley folk. Perhaps some of the lesser order oriented in elements in OTR could come and argue for how the improvement in the neighborhood would undermine their business and put those Butler Cty and NKYers in a bad spot when they're jonesing. :evil:
February 11, 200817 yr >I am glad you brought this up, as I was thinking the same thing. You're right, I meant east side. Historically streetcars ran down the center of Clifton Ave. and in Boston there are many situations where the green line branches run down streets very similar to Clifton Ave. but protected by either concrete curbs or old iron fencing which is very low-key but effective in keeping things moving along. Typically there is a break in the fencing only at main streets meaning residential side streets can't turn left. In the context of Clifton Ave. that would mean the various side streets couldn't turn north which I can't imagine would cause a serious problem. There are also many situations in Boston where both tracks run adjacent on one side or another, again protected by a curb or fencing. Then there are areas where the green line runs fenced down the center of a wide street, one side is used for both directions of vehicular traffic and the other for parking. It all seems to work really well. If the line is to terminate at Ludlow Ave. running down the east side makes more sense in allowing a turnaround loop or stub track in the approximate location of the little fountain that appeared a few years ago. It also keeps the streetcars from interfering with the fire station at the corner of Ludlow & Clifton.
February 11, 200817 yr I'd imagine that Good Sam is going to have questions about accessibility for their ambulances as well, which argues for an east side orientation.
February 11, 200817 yr Author When smelly hippies protest things by singing in three hour drum circle, they tend to alienate as many people as they influence. Would hippies protest the streetcar? Stop the degrading remarks towards hippies. I know many that live in OTR and they are VERY pro-streetcar and will be using the system when it is up. I did not mean to be anti-hippie, they are a fun group of people. I only used them to provide an example of advocacy being counterproductive. the moral of the story is the need to be professional and numerous at the streetcar meeting
February 11, 200817 yr Author from the 2.11 enquirer STREETCARS PART OF MIX TO IMPROVE CITY In regard to adding streetcars to downtown, my experience in Portland is that people walk, drive, bike, use streetcars, light rail and buses for transportation. Those many options are a part of what makes Portland a pleasure to visit. People seem to enjoy living there, also. One of our City Council members claims a streetcar could drain downtown of needed lunch business. Well, Interstate 75 lured me into downtown twice last week for breakfast. And Wooster Pike lured me out of my neighborhood just today for lunch. Lord knows where I may go this coming week. Streetcars are one item in a mix that can make the city core a better place to live, work, play. Last week you also carried a story about the rebirth of Phoenix, also, Denver, Miami and Salt Lake City. One thing they all enjoy in common: rail transit. W. Mike Weber, Symmes Township
February 11, 200817 yr did not mean to be anti-hippie, they are a fun group of people. I only used them to provide an example of advocacy being counterproductive. the moral of the story is the need to be professional and numerous at the streetcar meeting Gotcha. FYI. Hippies were a big part of inner city rehabs that occured in Clifton, Mt Adams, and Prospect Hill in the 60's and 70's these areas might not be where they are today if not for these original urban pioneers, some of who are still living here.
February 11, 200817 yr from the 2.11 enquirer STREETCARS PART OF MIX TO IMPROVE CITY In regard to adding streetcars to downtown, my experience in Portland is that people walk, drive, bike, use streetcars, light rail and buses for transportation. Those many options are a part of what makes Portland a pleasure to visit. People seem to enjoy living there, also. One of our City Council members claims a streetcar could drain downtown of needed lunch business. Well, Interstate 75 lured me into downtown twice last week for breakfast. And Wooster Pike lured me out of my neighborhood just today for lunch. Lord knows where I may go this coming week. Streetcars are one item in a mix that can make the city core a better place to live, work, play. Last week you also carried a story about the rebirth of Phoenix, also, Denver, Miami and Salt Lake City. One thing they all enjoy in common: rail transit. W. Mike Weber, Symmes Township when i was in jersey for business last year, i got on the 7am train from parsipanny(dont know if thats how you spell it) to penn station. Packed with business people, school kids, tourists, etc. Parsipanny was about 30 miles from the city i believe. but it was amazing to see public transportation at its finest....
February 11, 200817 yr I love taking New Jersey Transit. Clean buses and trains (and public transport in general) and high ridership.
February 12, 200817 yr Author Do everything you can to make it there on time, as most likely the public comment portion will be up front, but if you can't make it at one, text someone you know and ask if the meeting is still going on, it may last several hours. Be polite and proffesional. Dress the part. Remember, decisions are made by those who show up. If you haven't been to a meeting yet, please come and help the cause. There won't be many more opportunities. If you have been working for the streetcar, please come and help get the ball across the line. We are at 2nd & 7 on the 15 going in. We need a touchdown. Sports metaphors are awesome
February 12, 200817 yr ^ I'd say more like 3rd and goal. But it's an away-game, the scoreboard's on the blink, and time's being kept on the field. On the other hand, we've got one hell of a ground-game.
February 12, 200817 yr Author the problem with the analogy is that there is no field goal in streetcars. So it is bottom of the ninth, one out down by one run with men on second and third.
February 12, 200817 yr the problem with the analogy is that there is no field goal in streetcars. So it is bottom of the ninth, one out down by one run with men on second and third. Well I wouldn't say that the Cincinnati Streetcar is losing...so I think it would be more appropriate to say: Bottom of the ninth (on the road), 2 out, up 1 run, with a man on first and the cleanup hitter at the plate. TIME TO CLOSE THINGS OUT!
February 12, 200817 yr what about up 3, we just got fouled. we get the 1 and 1 bonus from the free throw line. all we have to do is hit the first one and the games over. but were at the opponents stadium who hasnt lost in some time...the crowd is animated...
February 12, 200817 yr haha...sports metaphors are fun. :-D But seriously...this is our time to shine. Show up in full force everyone!
February 13, 200817 yr It really looks like the Brewery District might see the biggest gains from investment spurred by the Cincinnati Streetcar. Don't believe me: http://www.soapboxmedia.com/devnews/cincybeerco0212.aspx And this is straight from the Cincinnati Brewing Co.'s website: "Housed in the old Christian Moerlein Home and Brewery Office Building, the Cincinnati Beer Company (CBC) plans to brew monumental beers in the city's most historic neighborhood, Over-the-Rhine (OTR). Situated near Findlay Market at the northern end of the proposed downtown streetcar loop, CBC will play an integral part both in the redevelopment of the Brewery District in OTR, and the furthering of a vibrant and collaborative beer culture in Cincinnati. Please check back and we will update you on our progress." http://www.cincybeerco.com/
February 13, 200817 yr ^ That's great news! Speaking of which, does anyone know if the owner of Christian Moerlein is a streetcar supporter? It seems like he would be, but that's totally a guess. Wow, if we could get one or two breweries operating in OTR again, that could really be the start of something special.
February 13, 200817 yr ^How about a Christian Moerlein brewery in the Brewery District...and a Christian Moerlein Brew Pub in the Gateway Quarter area? Now that would make me hot in the pants.
February 13, 200817 yr While there is no guarantee the brewpub complex would happen, I hope just the news of them saying it will happen if the streetcar goes forward gives people an idea of the possibilities. Development along the line would provide another major boost to the city center, and with more development more people, and with more people more development and so on. I think this phenomenon has been pretty well documented.
February 13, 200817 yr ^ That's great news! Speaking of which, does anyone know if the owner of Christian Moerlein is a streetcar supporter? It seems like he would be, but that's totally a guess. Wow, if we could get one or two breweries operating in OTR again, that could really be the start of something special. Yes he is. Greg Hardman is on the boards of both the Brewery District CURC and the Over-the-Rhine Foundation. He is on the record that he eventually wants his brewery in OTR: http://www.otrbrewerydistrict.org/about_news_110007_cg_hardman.php
February 13, 200817 yr Off to Portland with another streetcar tour for five days. If you hear anything interesting about the streetcar, please email me = [email protected]. I'd keep talking among your friends and get commitments to attend on the 25th. Sound like a long afternoon. But then, the party afterwards could be especially good. Thanks.
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