stall in committee, thats what it says

 

from city beat's Porkopolis blog

 

February 19, 2008

 

Readers Cry Foul on Streetcar Critics

 

One of the top voices opposing Cincinnati's proposed streetcar system behind-the-scenes is Joseph Pichler, the retired Kroger CEO who is vice chairman of 3CDC's board of directors, political and business sources say.

 

A recent article in CityBeat noted how Pichler holds the view that rail-based transit such as streetcars are a waste of taxpayer money.

 

Pichler is a follower of Randal O'Toole, who is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute, a Libertarian think tank. O'Toole advocates for free market, private sector solutions to urban planning issues and opposes public subsidies for mass transit like commuter rail, streetcars and buses. Such systems ignore the preferences of most U.S. consumers, who prefer automobiles, O'Toole has said.

 

The article and Pichler’s stance prompted several telephone calls and e-mails to CityBeat, pointing out what they termed were lapses in O’Toole’s logic and hypocrisy on Pichler’s part.

 

Some readers criticized Pichler’s Libertarian leanings on streetcars, citing how Kroger pressured city officials into building the company a parking garage using taxpayer money. In 2004, Cincinnati City Council approved spending $12 million to build the garage at the corner of Jackson Street and Central Parkway. Unless council agreed to build a garage for the company, Kroger would move its corporate headquarters outside the city, executives said at the time.

 

Kroger’s garage “wasn’t exactly laissez-faire (or) market driven,” wrote one e-mail writer, who is the vice president of a local real estate firm. “It’s interesting that people who like to quote (conservative think tanks) do it very selectively. Wonder what Mr. Pichler would think of all highways being toll roads? And an airline ticket reflecting the true cost of a flight? Bring it down to a local level … maybe he’d like to see market-driven city parks and street snow removal?

 

“The streetcar plan is well researched, well planned and will serve several purposes, one of which is to attract large-scale private investment to Over-The-Rhine,” the e-mail concluded.

 

Other readers questioned O’Toole’s credentials, stating he doesn’t hold degrees in urban planning.

 

O’Toole is “a self-proclaimed transportation expert with a degree in forestry,” one caller said. “It’s amazing that people just pick up his mantra and follow it without any question. I often wonder where his funding comes from.”

 

Further, OToole rarely questions the massive federal subsidies used to promote automobile transportation, like building roads, some readers said. If the philosophy was followed in a logical manner, the government shouldn’t build interstate highways, dams and levees, or airports, leaving them to private investment. Under that scenario, most rural areas probably wouldn’t be served because it wouldn’t be profitable and the few that were would have toll roads.

 

“Transportation is a public need, financed publicly,” a caller said.

 

City council is considering a $102 million proposal to build a streetcar system through parts of downtown and Over-the-Rhine, part of a plan to spark redevelopment of vacant or underutilized parcels.

 

The 3.9-mile zig-zag loop would link Findlay Market to Great American Ball Park, with numerous stops along the way. Future segments have been suggested for Uptown and Northern Kentucky. If approved, construction could begin by year’s end and the system could be operational by late 2010.

 

City council’s Finance Committee will discuss the streetcar project at a 1 p.m. meeting Monday.

 

— Kevin Osborne

 

and a comment from John Schneider about the post:

 

You know, it's funny: several of us had dinner last Friday night in Portland with the biggest developer of real estate along the streetcar line -- condos, office space, grocery stores, national retailers, the whole works.

 

And I asked him, so how do you respond to crtics like Randal O'Toole, who says you only succeed with big subsidies and that all of the $3.3 billion worth of development in Portland's Pearl District and South Waterfront would have occurred anyway - without the streetcar?

 

He answered, "No frigging way is that true."

 

He then got this puzzled look on his face and asked, "Who's Randal O'Toole?"

 

Consider this: here's this very successful developer who has been building all along the streetcar line for many years, and yet he's never even heard of the paid critic who is going to other cities preaching about how bad the Portland Streetcar is and how much Portlanders don't value it.

 

My take is, Randal O'Toole would never be able to peddle this crap in Portland, because people there know better.

 

It was a teachable moment.

 

This is why I take people to Portland all the time -- to see for themselves and reach their own conclusions.

 

-John Schneider

Whoa!

 

New streetcar plan avoids OTR

BY JANE PRENDERGAST | [email protected]

 

The much-talked-about plan to bring streetcars to Cincinnati could be delayed by a new proposal that asks more financial questions and endorses a line from Downtown to Uptown, rather than a loop through Over-the-Rhine.

 

Written by Councilwoman Roxanne Qualls and supported by five other council members, a majority, the motion is expected to be introduced at or before Monday’s Finance Committee meeting, which has been set aside for a discussion about the $100 million streetcar proposal.

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080220/NEWS01/302200123

 

to put the thread back to the pertinent issue

Remember what we were positing about financial contributions to future campaigns?  Answer in citybeat article and enquirer article when considered in conjunction.

[quote author=moonloop link=topic=9.msg259442#msg259442 date=1203562794

 

[Mallory] said he always viewed the streetcar plan as one project, not as the Over-the-Rhine loop as phase one and the rest to follow later. He said it’s just that fundraising had only started for the Over-the-Rhine section, but that funding eventually would be pursued for the rest of it. too.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080220/NEWS01/302200123

 

Mallory is the consumate politician, thats such a nuanced way to put it... Its not two phases, we are just pursuing funding in two phases... Heh.. I need to learn to speak like him!

I guess this puts the Finance Committee streetcar hearing on Feb. 25th (1pm) in doubt? It seemed that this thing was so close to being sign, sealed and delivered. This is a real curve ball.

 

I know there's a ton of maps on this thread, but was there a mockup done for DT to Uptown?

Typical Cincinnati progress.........go 75% of the way and then get side tracked by some proposal out of left field......this is what makes living in this city so frustrating!!

I kind of like this turn of events.  As a resident of the downtown basin I can get pretty much anywhere down here in under 10 mins on a bike.  Riding a bike up sycamore hill is quite a different story.  It will be interesting to see where they plan on routing this.

Typical Cincinnati progress.........go 75% of the way and then get side tracked by some proposal out of left field......this is what makes living in this city so frustrating!!

 

...hit the nail on the head...

 

Mark Twainism--10 years later

I was wondering when something like this would happen, the supporters of it on council should tell you all you need to know about what it really is, something to gum up the works and keep the streetcar from moving forward at all.

randy is right.  we dont even know for sure whats going to happen and already a lot of people on here are bashing cincy.  wait until the morning atleast...

I thought that the Downtown-Uptown route was the better option from the beginning...I just hope that it's a simple switch and that it won't add another couple years two the project.  (Wishful thinking, I know)  But I thought that modern streetcars couldn't make it up the hill?  I'm really curious to see the proposed routing...

Assuming there is a proposed new routing, and it's not simply a ridiculous brainstorming session. 

Qualls has been weird since she got back, but I have a hard time seeing her being the front-woman on killing this. Her constituency - besides being most of the city - is most certainly centered in places where the streetcar would go. We all know Cranley is a twerp and is aiming to get a state legislature seat out on the West Side, but it doesn't make sense for Foxy Roxy's future.

 

I'll come back to the fact, that I'd probably throw OTR under the proverbial streetcar to get the initial track laid that gets up the hill.

randy is right.  we dont even know for sure whats going to happen and already a lot of people on here are bashing cincy.  wait until the morning atleast...

 

true.  but this makes me nervous.  this is gonna turn into a major delay...

 

Councilwoman Leslie Ghiz disagrees. She did not sign Qualls 19-page plan. Itll slow up the whole process, she said. Weve already paid for a study.

 

Exactly.

Qualls has been weird since she got back, but I have a hard time seeing her being the front-woman on killing this.

 

Yeah, but this is the second or third time that she's thrown out "some great idea" about something the other council members have been fighting hard for while she wasn't even here, right before a deadline.  I'm getting pretty sick of this crap.

 

I don't live in OTR or Clifton, so I don't have a dog in this fight, but changing the plan 5 days before the big vote?  Plus, that Uptown route is already scheduled for Phase 1B!  Can't it just wait the extra year or so?  If they decide to study the feasibility of this route now instead, it will still be built at the same time, but without Phase 1 (if at all). This does nothing but jeopardize the entire project!  What is she thinking? 

At least the streetcar hasn't been killed yet.  I know that Dayton has a long history with streetcar plans and our electric bus system.  The city et. al. considered linking our aviation heritage sites with downtown but with more research it seems smartest to link our downtown/Oregon District to the University of Dayton neighborhood.  Perhaps Downtown to Uptown should be embraced and patience should be practiced for OTR.  Getting it in OTR right now might be a homerun, but from experience I can attest that it's smarter and better to get a few singles and doubles along the way.

At least the streetcar hasn't been killed yet. 

 

I know what you're saying and certainly that is a positive aspect of the situation but I feel that even with 3CDC transforming the inner core we would be better off doing less planning and more implementing. You have to find a balance between planning and getting things done. When you consider the amount of delays we have in Cincinnati, it is very important that this gets DONE.

a

I kind of like this turn of events.  As a resident of the downtown basin I can get pretty much anywhere down here in under 10 mins on a bike.  Riding a bike up sycamore hill is quite a different story.  It will be interesting to see where they plan on routing this.

 

Interesting first-time post.

 

John Cranley once told me that he favored going straight up Sycamore Hill to Uptown.

 

Someone rides a bike up Sycamore Hill?

 

 

>Someone rides a bike up Sycamore Hill?

 

Me.  It actually gets steeper after the turn, and the rise on Auburn Ave. doesn't stop until north of Christ Hospital.       

I have a nice letter written, I hope I don't have to send it.

 

Campaign! Campaign! Campaign! Don't let this turn into a turnover.

Take it up Liberty Hill that way it goes past my house.  :-D  Actually, I would be against any change to

phase 1.

Is it possible that she knows something that we don't?  Like, somehow the current plan will not make it through the vote, but this plan will?  Even if that is the case, I really liked the idea of construction starting in 2008, and I doubt that will be a possibility if they go with this new plan.

she knows that her proposed plan won't make it through a vote.  she got enough people on board on her plan to make it hard for the original plan to make it through on a vote.  in other words, she is trying to kill it, not just stall, but end.  plain and simple (or if not, she's being used by cranley in the worst way)

 

edit - i ride up sycamore hill sometimes too... or if i am lazy, i go up liberty.

The word that I got is that most of the other Council members signed this proposal without really studying it, and that Qualls wants to save all the city's capital funds for other projects.

 

Also, just got this from Qualls email list (which sounds like it confirms that stance):

 

I am very excited and enthusiastic about the proposal to bring streetcars to Cincinnati. As a long-time supporter of public transportation and a leader during my tenure as Mayor to advance Light Rail I believe an efficient public transportation system is essential to our attractiveness and competitiveness as a community.

 

The City of Cincinnati is currently looking at the possibility of building the first link in a streetcar system. (You can click on links below to access the Feasibility Study presented to City Council last October.) This study focuses primarily on a loop from Second Street in Downtown Cincinnati up to Findlay Market. As you read the report you will see consistent reference to the fact that the October study is a preliminary study. Even so, it is a substantial piece of work that the indicates the economic development potential of fixed rail investment.

 

I am working with members of City Council to lay out a series of steps-"green lights" if you will, the administration must pass through to insure that a substantial public investment in a streetcar is successful. The priority for this investment is that it connects the two major employment centers of the region-Downtown and Uptown while going through Over-the-Rhine. In addition, the administration must demonstrate to City Council's satisfaction that: 1.  There is a reasonable and feasible financing plan in place that will get the streetcar to Uptown and not have it stuck at Findlay Market. (We do not want to revisit the days of the failed subway.) 2. The use of city capital dollars does not adversely impact current and anticipated neighborhood projects. 3. The city's operating budget will not subsidize the operations of the streetcar; and, 4. That agreements are in place with our partners in the business community and with the institutions in Uptown to assist in financing the connection.

 

I know a number of people get anxious when anyone starts raising questions about the streetcar. They think that asking questions and stating ones policy position means one is against the streetcar. In my case, that is not true. I think a streetcar system integrated into an expanded bus system and ultimately into a light rail system is exactly what this city and region needs. To get there, however, requires, that we now do the heavy intellectual lifting required to insure we have the financial capacity and the committed partnerships to complete what we start.

 

Please click on the following link to read the Streetcar Motion, the Feasibility Study and its Appendices.  The documents are at the bottom of the page.

whoops, missed that this was already posted.

Quall's Resolution comes in at a scant 75.1 MB, here is the link

 

http://www.quallsforcouncil.com/pages_blocks/images/links/Streetcar_motion.pdf

damn it, 50 mins remaining to download... slow slow website.

Qualls might not be 'anti-streetcar', but her plan sure seems to have to potential to derail the whole thing.  This is terrible news for me, as I was waiting for construction to begin before I purchased a condo in the 'Q'.

 

It might be time to re-think Qualls!  I was pretty young when she was mayor, but that time period wasn't really a success story in the history of this city.  I have always been confused as to why she gets support.

Monday's meeting will tell me whether to rethink Qualls.  I voted for her based upon the fact that she had devoted considerable time and energy into thinking and scholarly research in urban planning, design, and community administration.  I hope that in the end that faith was not misplaced.

New streetcar plan avoids OTR

 

Am I misreading this or are they just saying that they believe that the importance is in getting uptown and downtown connected vs just putting a loop in OTR?  The way I read it, which I admit may be totally wrong, is that a single line run through OTR, which can only be Vine or Sycamore (I say Vine) instead of a loop of Elm and Race.  This makes total sense to me with 3CDC wanting that line to impact the Q as much as possible.  Am I missing something because the title seems misleading, you can not avoid OTR if you want to link the two?

I think it is a real mistake to take it off the Main/Walnut and Elm/Race alignments.

I think it is a real mistake to take it off the Main/Walnut and Elm/Race alignments.

 

We could debate that all day but I am asking the question whether or not I am understanding the article.  Are they saying that they only oppose the loop?

I think the Enquirer did it's usual sensationalist job with "New streetcar plan avoids OTR" headline, because the article doesn't say that.  While I don't see a specific suggested routing, it reads to me that the Qualls plan is to do both phases at once.  Now this plan might very well avoid most of OTR with a routing further east, which would be a huge mistake, but I haven't seen that yet. I'm not encouraged by this development, as it seems to be our typical MO in this town.  I am anxiously awaiting tonight's and Monday's council meeting.

Now this plan might very well avoid most of OTR with a routing further east, which would be a huge mistake

 

Considering that Race and Elm are about as far west as you can go, how does going east avoid OTR?

I thought that Roxanne was smarter than this, but this almost seems to reinforce what I had feared about her.  She has a lot of good ideas and good intentions, but lacks the necessary real-world applications of these ideas.  This city has never had a problem of people not having good intentions/ideas.  Our problem is that we seem unable to make those intentions/ideas actually happen.

 

Roxanne should know that this could and probably will set the whole effort back at the very best a year, and at the very worst table it indefinitely.  While our members of council continue to play hot potato with this issue, people in Atlanta, DC, and many other cities are also working aggresively on streetcar proposals.

 

Mark Twain will once again look brilliant about Cincinnati, and we will lose the edge we once had (and still do until the 25th) on this particular issue.  This is our time to shed the politics of past in Cincinnati and start making this the city we want it to be.  These kinds of actions, by Qualls, are counterproductive while being chuck full of good intentions.

Now this plan might very well avoid most of OTR with a routing further east, which would be a huge mistake

 

Considering that Race and Elm are about as far west as you can go, how does going east avoid OTR?

 

In terms of potential redevelopment area, the current proposed route catches a whole lot of area.  I'm worried that a potential route much further east like Gilbert or Reading might be proposed.  It all comes down to what she is proposing.

Ok, I can understand that, but what if she proposes Vine or Sycamore?  Still opposed?  To me, Reading or Gilbert would not make much sense vs Vine or Sycamore.  I would also argue that Vine and Sycamore both offer more of a redevelopment possibility than Race and Elm.

Ok, I can understand that, but what if she proposes Vine or Sycamore?  Still opposed?  To me, Reading or Gilbert would not make much sense vs Vine or Sycamore.  I would also argue that Vine and Sycamore both offer more of a redevelopment possibility than Race and Elm.

 

Sycamore has potential with the large parking lots, but there are no other anchors or points of interest along that route, as opposed to Washington Park/Music Hall/Findlay Market.  Vine is already moving along fine without the streetcar due to 3CDC's efforts.  The Elm/Race route, especially if you get to McMicken and the Renner/Mohawk hillside, has more potential for development, especially with smaller infill projects.  Sycamore would probably be built by one developer, which limits the overall impact.

I personally think it is a bad idea NOT to connect Findlay Market, Music Hall, and the Brewery District area with the Cincinnati Streetcar.

 

I see the benefits of going up Vine or Sycamore, but I also see the negatives...overally I think the best possible ratio of positives to negatives places the route on that Race/Elm alignment.

Sycamore has potential with the large parking lots, but there are no other anchors or points of interest along that route, as opposed to Washington Park/Music Hall/Findlay Market.

You mean other than being one block away from Main st. that has multiple points of interest.

 

Vine is already moving along fine without the streetcar due to 3CDC's efforts

Only to Liberty. plus you are in closer proximity to Main and split OTR equally making it more accesible to more people, ie me who will not walk from Main to Race to ride a streetcar.

 

The Elm/Race route, especially if you get to McMicken and the Renner/Mohawk hillside, has more potential for development, especially with smaller infill projects.  Sycamore would probably be built by one developer, which limits the overall impact.

 

Surprise, but I totally disagree.  3CDC on Main, Pauline Van der haar on Sycamore and Main, Jerry Hunderlaw on Sycamore, Doug Spitz, Main, Vernon Rader Main, Model on Main, more individual store fronts and potential office space to be filled on Main, I can go on and on.  Now who is on the hillside of Renner and Mohawk?  Duane??

Typical Cincinnati progress.........go 75% of the way and then get side tracked by some proposal out of left field......this is what makes living in this city so frustrating!!

 

Exactly.  It is this type of shit that makes me think that I might not want to live in Cincinnati once I graduate college.  Time and time again this city has shown that it can't get big things done, and it gets old.  Going back to the days of the subway, on through until now when we can't get the Banks even started, and now the streetcar probably won't happen for quite a few years.  This city moves so sloooooowwwww.

I don't disagree that Main Street would be a good fit.  If the line is on Sycamore, though, that isn't the same thing.  Right now Sycamore has nothing other than parking lots for the most part.  I don't think Sycamore is a viable option up the hill as well.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's too steep.

 

I also see the Brewery District as having potential for larger mixed use and other commercial uses that the rest of OTR doesn't have.

 

You may be right about the hill that is why I include Vine.  And Vine would be my first pick.    But let me stick on the hill thing for now.  What is your link to uptown from Elm or Race?  Vine and Sycamore, not Main, both have that access.  I have no idea how you are going to do that on Race and Elm.

 

So to me, if you look at;

 

accessibility-Vine

Uptown link-Vine

redevelopment opportunity-Vine

City support- (I am going to say Vine)

 

 

Query - what are the viable options up the hill?

  I had planned to invest in the brewery district a few years ago, then Citylink was dreamed up and I gave up.  Then the streetcar thru OTR was planned, I became positive once again and after talking to a building inspector and real estate agent a month ago, I found a building that I want to invest in near Findlay Market. This is BS.

Query - what are the viable options up the hill?

I do not know what the max incline is before it becomes impossible, but I will say that Sycamore can cut over to Liberty Hill and up.  Vine can go straight and you are close to the heart of UC when you reach the top.  But Race and Elm, I just do not get it, short of rebuilding an incline, how do you go up?

As much fun as it is to debate the route...this Qualls proposal might very well set back this whole effort back years.  This is really what we should be concerned about...and if you truly desire a streetcar route getting built, in our lifetime, I would suggest hammering Crowley, Cole, and Thomas HARD AND HEAVY with emails, letters, whatever you can do.

 

Let them know that this kind of political stalling is NOT acceptable and that we don't want another 10 year effort for something that could be done in less than half that time.  It is not too late, but we must let these people on the fence know that they NEED to support this current proposal as it is presented on the 25th.

 

GO TO WORK!