February 27, 200817 yr I guess Mr. Witte realizes that all those people displaced by a completely rehabbed OTR have to live somewhere, and they aren't going to be able to stay where they are. He sure doesnt want them in his backyard.. http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080226/NEWS01/802260348/1056/COL02
February 27, 200817 yr I'm not saying I agree with Witte, but a lot of the energy for the really 'crappy' council folks of the 1990s came as a result of a rebellion by the voters against the downtown-oriented folks that ran the city in the '80s. There was lots of attention to downtown up through about '91 when the voters shifted away from that focus and didn't really come back toward downtown into the mid-00s. Witte is not wrong about what happened to Price Hill. The city sacrificed the near West Side to begin to rebuild the basin. Mirlisena (sp?) started the trend and the Tillery et al. followed along. Cincinnati (and many other cities) tend to have cycles were the downtowns get all the attention and the 'hoods rebel. Unfortunately, the dispersal of resources when trying to help the neighborhoods usually just ends up a low level pork barrel, but it happens. Qualls ran the town during the last rebellion and my guess is she knows that it could reappear at any moment, especially if the Banks doesn't start to move and the housing market continues to crumble. I, personally, can't wait to ride the streetcar and I agree with the strong arguments for it. However, that is a whole lot of capital investment in one place when the city is closing swimming pools, schools, and the roads aren't in great shape. I think the city has too many pools, but many folks get quite disturbed when you take away the community pool. Honestly, I wish there was a way to get some serious private money behind this - see the long-term leases on the tollways maybe PEMEX or Citgo would like to help us.
February 27, 200817 yr I guess Mr. Witte realizes that all those people displaced by a completely rehabbed OTR have to live somewhere, and they aren't going to be able to stay where they are. He sure doesnt want them in his backyard.. This argument transcends the streetcar and highlights a major issues that we are facing in the redevelopment of downtown. People like Mr. Witte believe that this is a zero sum game. If one dollar is spent here, it is one less that is spent there. This is flawed thinking much the same way that believing that ignoring the inner city would not negatively effect the surrounding communities. It is an easy argument to overcome so long as you can make your case in a public enough fashion to rebut all of the people that this type thinking resonates with. There was lots of attention to downtown up through about '91 when the voters shifted away from that focus and didn't really come back toward downtown into the mid-00s. Witte is not wrong about what happened to Price Hill. The city sacrificed the near West Side to begin to rebuild the basin. Mirlisena (sp?) started the trend and the Tillery et al. followed along. He may not be wrong about Price Hill but I think that you are missing the the fact that this came from a federal shift that triggered the bankruptcy of people like Tom Denhart down here and the mass exodus out of OTR to better living conditions that could be found in low cost, relatively safe areas on the West Side. The efforts in OTR only became possible because of this shift and allowed for the purchase of mostly empty buildings. The focus of the city only sped up the redevelopment, but it was going to happen eventually--slower, but eventually. Even the CBD argument with the redevelopment of Fountain Square could be argued was a competitive move that both attracted new business as well as helped support the expansion of the convention center to make us more competitive in that arena as well. Those same dollars spent in Price Hill does not get you the same return.
February 27, 200817 yr I will agree with Pete on 98% of things, but this streetcar is a no-brainer for the city as a whole. Maybe it could ULTIMATELY benefit Westwood and P-Hill in 5 yrs after it is successful in OTR, Uptown, and Northside. My god, it kills me to know we had a descent working streetcar system ALREADY in place serving all these neighborhoods, but with a little help from our friends in the oil and automobile industry----------- Well, thats just a distant memory, huh.
February 27, 200817 yr Keep in mind that the effective range of a streetcar is about five miles because 80% of the passengers stand. Nationally the average trip-length on streetcars is about a mile. On light rail, it's four miles.
February 28, 200817 yr The point a lot of people seem to be missing in Mr. Witte's letter (though I don't agree with his view) is that all of us who are streetcar advocates need to be able to answer this basic question from people who live outside whatever winds up being the initial service area for the streetcar line: "What's in it for me?" A serious tactical error made by the Central Ohio Transit Authority several years ago in pushing for light rail in Columbus was to focus all of their efforts on a single corridor and failing to address the above question from not only other Columbus neighborhoods, but from almost the entire outer ring of suburbs. Bottom line, they lost a levy vote and the majority of those no votes came from the suburbs. Admittedly, a streetcar line serves a smaller foot-print of urban area, but the question is no less important as is the answer to that question. What is the public benefit beyond the immediate start-up streetcar line service area? The answer isn't always easy, but we have to have an answer ready. Part of it may be in showing that there will be new phases that will expand service and a rough timetable of when they could happen. Here in C-Bus, the Mayor is including the downtown streetcar plan in what will be an overall package of improvements for the city: a city-wide bicycle plan, greatly improved sidewalks, park improvements, two downtown parking garages, etc. It's a smart play, in my view that shows that a proposed bond issue will have broad public benefits. It's also tied in with having these improvements either completed or underway in time for the city's bi-centennial.
February 28, 200817 yr ^ I think the other way to look at this is: Cincinnati's City Manager has fenced-off large parts of the capital budget used for neighborhood projects, so the streetcar can't invade it. So even though other neighborhoods aren't getting the streetcar in the first build, they're getting the capital projects they've been working on and have succeeded getting in the budget. Also, Downtown, Over-the-Rhine and Uptown have evidenced their support for rail. In the 2002 MetroMoves plan that lost 2:1 countywide, Downtown & OTR voted for it by 2:1, and that plan included two streetcars -- one to the riverfront, another to Uptown. Uptown supported that vote by a little over 50%. The plan failed by large margins in Cincinnati's western and eastern suburbs.
February 28, 200817 yr "So even though other neighborhoods aren't getting the streetcar in the first build, they're getting the capital projects they've been working on and have succeeded getting in the budget." And there lies the beginning of the answer to that question: "What's in it for me."
February 28, 200817 yr Any figures for how many people from Wesrwood et al might drive downtown, and then use the streetcar for multiple stops around DT/OTR? People who might currently drive downtown, park, then drive to a second point downtown and park again? Or currently don't come downtown all that often because it's so hard to get around by driving and parking at multiple stops?
February 28, 200817 yr "What's in it for me." If that is truly the criteria, and I am not doubting it is, then I should oppose any initiative for the Westside as it does not benefit me at all. If this line of thinking resonates, then nothing will ever get done and then it will not be an issue of benefiting, it will be one of collectively loosing.
February 28, 200817 yr "What's in it for me." ...it will be one of collectively loosing. Hmmm, sounds familiar...
February 28, 200817 yr You can try to appeal to people's better natures, but you have to be willing to appeal to their pocketbooks/self-interest as well. Dismissing that side of the argument made by those who agree with you, means those who disagree with you will fight that much harder. . . see Cranley, John.
February 28, 200817 yr You can try to appeal to people's better natures I am trying to highlight, not appeal to, their true nature.
February 28, 200817 yr I wasn't there, but my suspicion is that the vote will break down this way: In Favor: Bortz Thomas Cole Crowley Qualls Against: Cranley Monzel Ghiz Unknown: Berding Berding is a for sure YES, and just write a letter to Ghiz questioning her support of the streetcar plan under discussion...you'll get an emphatic response with her practically being insulted that you insinuated that she is against the plan. In a letter she wrote back to me she said she has always supported the plan, and attached documents supporting this statement. Ghiz is a YES in my book without any doubts. Here is how I see things: YES: Bortz Ghiz Berding Thomas Crowley NO: Cranley Monzel UNKNOWN: Cole Qualls
February 28, 200817 yr ghiz has previously told people point blank she is an enthusiastic yes. as for Witte, his letter is symptomatic of the knee-jerk myopia which has so often plagued Cincinnati in the past. [stepping up on to the soapbox].....While it is true that Cincinnati as a city is the sum total of its 56 individual neighborhood components, the heart of that city resides in its core downtown, and pulsates out from there. The city is not a doughnut, and residents of all neighborhoods need to realize that the benefits of a healthy downtown have a ripple effect throughout the entire region. As a well known Price Hill advocate, Witte predictably postures a reverse-NIMBY ("NotInMyBackYard") argument, contending that a streetcar initially centered in the downtown will provide no benefit to residents of Westwood, Price Hill et al. Aside from the fact that his argument presumes that the residents of the remaining "50 neighborhoods" will apparently find zero use whatsoever in a system connecting Fountain Square, Findlay Market, Music Hall, the Aronoff Center, GABP, Paul Brown Stadium, the Banks, the riverfront and the rest of downtown and Over the Rhine, Witte's short-sighted argument ignores the fact that this is but the first step in what is envisioned to be a much larger system. Nobody is going to argue that a 4+ mile loop will evoke a massive sea change in city-wide commuting habits, and, admittedly, it is in many respects both a cosmetic as well as psychological first leap. Given that, however, where else would you propose to take that first step other than in downtown? A comprehensive city-wide light rail system is clearly not feasible at this juncture given funding requirements and the current economic climate, not to mention the prior rejection of same by the voters from whom Witte is so eagerly seeking a referendum. That said, however a successful Stage I streetcar system is but the necessary first step, which can then lead to Stage II (with the added addition of federal funding dollars), connecting Downtown with Uptown, Pill Hill and Clifton. You have to walk before you can run, Rome wasn't built in a day [and insert your own tired cliché here]. Nevertheless, if advocates like Witte and naysaying councilmember Cranley have their way, Cincinnati will continue to be a city of 56 fragmented xenophobic components, each seeking their slice of a diminishing pie, as opposed to a vibrant, growing and progressive region with a thriving center city. Whether Cranley and Witte care to admit it or not, Price Hill is not downtown, so regardless of what (at this point unspecified) impact the streetcar system may have on their much ballyhooed "Price Hill Incline" dreams, all neighborhoods will ultimately benefit in the end from the proposed streetcar system.
February 28, 200817 yr advocates need to be able to answer this basic question from people who live outside whatever winds up being the initial service area for the streetcar line: "What's in it for me?" To Cincinnati Public: I have no children, what is in it for me? To the Zoo: I have not been there in years, what is in it for me? To the Freedom Center: I have never been there, what is in it for me? To the Ballparks: I do not follow sports, what is in it for me? To the Convention Center: I never go to conventions, what is in it for me? I could go on and on. Connecting the two largest employment centers, not connecting bar to bar as he said, is a good thing. Making our City more competitive in attracting business and new residence is a good thing. I believe that Mr. Witte would have a much harder time with justifying any expenditures that affect the whole cities good in Price Hill vs Downtown and I am rather sure he would not want to be held to that standard. This comes down to "reverse-NIMBY ("NotInMyBackYard") argument" as Caseyc said. He and others realize that it is a good thing but fear any positive move by downtown as it may negatively affect their neighborhood. My question is what is wrong with those neighborhoods if it is criminals default location to operate out of. Perhaps our cleaning up of OTR is serving to highlight the failures and shortcomings of neighborhoods like Westwood, Price Hill and others. Address those shortcomings Mr. Witte and improve your community, do not fault our efforts in improving ours. Will someone email this guy and get him on here so we can ask him a few questions?
February 28, 200817 yr Again, I find myself wondering why we continue to preach to the choir on this forum. Write a letter to the editor! People against the streetcar are not monitoring this or any other forum. This is about winning in the court of public opinion!
February 28, 200817 yr Again, I find myself wondering why we continue to preach to the choir on this forum I like positive reinforcement. But honestly, I am not completely convinced that everyone realizes that some are against redevelopment efforts. When I first began working on things down here I never expected my biggest detractors would come from other community activist both in and out of downtown. It amazes me that so many say they want one thing, but truly only want to maintain the status quo. So perhaps I am preaching to the choir, or perhaps I am trying to rally the troops to help bring about real change.
February 28, 200817 yr Again, I find myself wondering why we continue to preach to the choir on this forum. Write a letter to the editor! People against the streetcar are not monitoring this or any other forum. This is about winning in the court of public opinion! as you may surmise, my post was essentially a cut and paste of an (admittedly too long) email letter to the Enquirer that i sent last night whilst cooling my heels in the crown room at Laguardia....since it most likely will not end up there, I figured...at the least...I could use it here as a rest stop on an ignominious journey into the virtual waste basket.
February 28, 200817 yr Again, I find myself wondering why we continue to preach to the choir on this forum. Write a letter to the editor! People against the streetcar are not monitoring this or any other forum. This is about winning in the court of public opinion! We are doing all of those things and more. The advantage of this forum is that we get sound out the best ways to present our issues. I find it invaluable to explore the reasons and motivations of the detractors to find better and more persuasive ways to counter their arguments. It may at times sound like preaching to the choir, but even the "preaching" has gone through several iterations, the arguments become more nuanced as we collectively come to an understanding of the most persuasive and effective approaches to advocacy.
February 28, 200817 yr I lived in East Price Hill for a couple of years, good thing I was renting as it was going down the tubes fast! Price Hill will further deteriorate if the core is not revitalized and if he doesn't realize this he is in for a rude awakening. Price hill has a little hope as prices for nice homes are cheap and there is a good view of downtown from it's hillsides. Witte needs to get on board, or be left to wallow in decay.
February 28, 200817 yr My question is what is wrong with those neighborhoods if it is criminals default location to operate out of. Perhaps our cleaning up of OTR is serving to highlight the failures and shortcomings of neighborhoods like Westwood, Price Hill and others. Address those shortcomings Mr. Witte and improve your community, do not fault our efforts in improving ours. Will someone email this guy and get him on here so we can ask him a few questions? He is a reasonable man, and I can't hold it against anyone who wants to defend his own neighborhood against MANY modern day issues. This applies to you too Michael. Perhaps you are right, we need to let this guy know about UO, so he could get a different perspective on how some of these issues like the streetcar could pan out for many of the 1st generations burbs and P-Hill. I think we need to quit completely tearing this guy (and the westside) down over one of two comments that YOU may not agree with. I have already admitted that I don't agree with him on a few of his comments like the streetcar and the Fay deal, but this city as a whole needs to start finding comprehensive, collective solutions and not this divisive rhetoric that we are used to. This guy's community involvement is something that many more people in that area have and need to start emulating. MOST of the people I know in the Western Hills area are in favor of rail TODAY. I know it took a beating during the Lt Rail initiative several years back, but this is a different day with $3.15 gal/gas. My bet is that this would pass if it were redone today. Someone mentioned "How many commuters from the westside travel in". I don't have a number, but will tell you it is ALOT. If you don't believe me check out Westwood Blvd, Glenway, Montana, Harrison, Rt 50, and 74 between the hours of 6 and 9 every morning. Maybe, instead of ripping this guy a new one because he asks "What's in it for us?" ---- We should be contacting him due to the fact he is such a vocal member of that area. Many die-hards in P-Hill have alot of respect and faith in what he says and does. Some of you guys really know how to write and convince people of the causes that we are all striving for. Let's enlighten these people and INCLUDE them on the ULTIMATE MASTER PLAN.
February 28, 200817 yr Interesting conversation on a downtown street yesterday ... A well-known leader of the Democratic party -- a guy who goes back a long way and who knows everything -- asked me why John Cranley was giving us so much trouble on the streetcar. I said, "I've got my own theories, tell me yours." So he went on, "You know, Cranley is a disciple of Tom Luken. And Tom figured out a long time ago that you can succeed in Cincinnati by always being against whatever the plan is, finding fault with any idea that comes along, good or bad. It got him elected mayor and congressman for many years. And John's just picking up where Tom Luken left off." I didn't really have anything to add.
February 28, 200817 yr Oakiehigh, Not sure what to make of that. Wasn't my saying "email this guy and get him on here so we can ask him a few questions?" an offer to "enlighten these people and INCLUDE them on the ULTIMATE MASTER PLAN"? Do I agree with "Why would this city support $100 million effort to shuffle a couple hundred people a day around Over-the-Rhine and Downtown?" in exchange for "link Westwood to Mount Washington and Bond Hill to Uptown" or his assessment of the streetcar to simply "make it easier for bar hoppers to hit OTR and Fountain Square" No! I disagree with that whole heartedly. He may be respected in Price Hill, thats great. I have some sway here in OTR and I believe that was in part what he was commenting so I say "we should be contacting him due to the fact he is such a vocal member of that area." because I am a vocal member in this area. So when it comes down to it, I don't think we are disagreeing here. I am ripping him a new one and he can come on here and defend his position against me.
February 28, 200817 yr ^No, we are not disagreeing here. I personally don't think Pete knows too much about this issue or the potential and he is just seeing the $102mill price tag and is commenting in the heat of the moment.
February 28, 200817 yr Personally I don't, but I know many Price Hill business owners who deal with him quite regularly. I will drop him an email! http://www.pricehillwill.org/
February 28, 200817 yr mr witte is right. we should just bulldoze downtown and otr all together. that way our historical center would be destroyed so all those out of town hacks can't enjoy our urban core where all the city's heritage lies. walnut hills and mt adam are probably too close to central as well. lets tear those down too. so visitors can go see burb like neighborhoods cause those aren't comon in america at all. *end sarcasm* the outside dollar spent in this city filters into our economy based on the strength of our central business district which is a neccesity. those same people would complain if we started building highrises in their neighborhoods but the infrastructure of our urban core is so vital. people who fail to see this piss me off. they might as well follow their argument through to its extreme and eliminate support to their own neighborhood business district like oakley square or the intersection of ridge and montgomery or the wendys and bmv in price hill lol. lets just make our city a homogenous mix of big business and suburbia!!! oops that was more sarcasm. I wonder how many of these people will have children someday who will want to attend scpa or art academy or how many would want that rush hour traffic coming up their street instead of into downtown which they are 10 minutes away from accesing and even closer if they would just vote yes on projects like metro moves instead of shooting down the best thing that ever could have happened to this town. the only downfall of having so many neighborhoods in our city is that people take pride in their community but NOT in their city. yet if asked by somebody in another state "where do you live" they would say cincinnati even though they take no pride in cincinnati...its shameful.
February 28, 200817 yr Personally I don't, but I know many Price Hill business owners who deal with him quite regularly. I will drop him an email! http://www.pricehillwill.org/ Sorry, wrong site! Here is his email from the county's website. [email protected] http://www.hamilton-co.org/hcrpc/canDirectory.asp?typ=orgDetail&ID=349
February 28, 200817 yr OH man!! that was funny about the Wendys and DMV. :lol: When I think of East Price Hill the first things that pop in my head from having lived in East Price Hill are DMV, Price Hill Chili and poop stench from MSD.
February 28, 200817 yr Where did you live in EPH to get the "poop stench? Was it closer to LPH? I lived at Summit View on Lehman. I had the freakin best view of the city, I lived on the 8th floor which was the top. I called it the Penthouse unit. 8-) There were always fliers by the elevator to call MSD if there was an odor, of course we all had the # memorized and it didn't do anything when we did call. The stench was at it's worse in the hot humid summers.... Going back to the streetcar, did anybody notice on the news the other day about the falling housing prices? The only 3 cities in the index where prices rose were streetcar cities. All but three of the 20 cities in the index showed year- over-year declines in prices in December, led by a 17.5 percent decrease in Miami and drops of 15.3 percent in Las Vegas and Phoenix. Prices rose in Seattle, Charlotte and Portland, Oregon. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aw61M2mwbf48&refer=home
February 28, 200817 yr Going back to the streetcar, did anybody notice on the news the other day about the falling housing prices? The only 3 cities in the index where prices rose were streetcar cities. All but three of the 20 cities in the index showed year- over-year declines in prices in December, led by a 17.5 percent decrease in Miami and drops of 15.3 percent in Las Vegas and Phoenix. Prices rose in Seattle, Charlotte and Portland, Oregon. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aw61M2mwbf48&refer=home That's pretty cool. It's probably also worth pointing out that properties in cities like Miami, Las Vegas, and Phoenix were drastically over-valued to begin with, so a correction of ~15% isn't as big a problem as it seems. Well, unless you're the poor schmoe who bought a house right before the correction!
February 28, 200817 yr Author Bloggers, please go to this link and add the 'I support the streetcar picture' to your blog. I would hope one of you, (hohum?) might be able to write up some code that you can just copy and paste it onto your blog. http://cincystreetcar.com/support.html
February 28, 200817 yr Yes, I can certainly tell you what you would need to copy and paste (although, it will just show up as an image if I post it here) One thing you might want to consider is making the image a bit smaller so its easy to fit in the sidebar of the typical blog (think about an image the size of the "I support Obama" images that are out there) Go to this link http://www.cogitatio.net/streetcarsupport.html and copy the text in the box to whereever you want to post it. It will look like this wherever you post it: <img src="http://cincystreetcar.com/Images/BlogSupport_CincyStreetcar.jpg" alt="Support the Cincinnati Streetcar" /> You can go to my blog to see how it looks (www.cogitatio.net/blog) and then you can see that its a bit big for say the sidebar on the right which is the type of place people are likley to want to put a badge like that.
February 28, 200817 yr Question(s)... While I haven't read all 97 pages on this thread, who is going to run the streetcars? SORTA? Has this been discussed yet? How will TANK try to use the streetcar? How will this effect (or is it affect, I never know) the Metro? Does this mean an increase in fair prices for Metro? Will Government Square eventually be used for streetcar purposes? Maybe I am thinking a little too forward, but I don't know the answers to these questions. I haven't seen anything that addresses the questions either. Any insight from anyone? Thanks
February 28, 200817 yr If anyone knows how turn that into a yard sign, I will buy one!!!!!! and if someone will put it in Cheryl Crowell's front yard, I will take a hundred or so. This lady is nuts. She is not just anti streetcar, she really seems to be anti redevelopment of OTR. Perhaps I am reading something into one of her post, but I sense a bit of bitterness and disdain towards Gateway as well. Not to mention her use of "funny math" the highly publicized GATEWAY DISTRICT (no longer OTR you should note) with it’s luxury condos sitting at 12th and Vine. So in agreement with Chris S, we can now add the 17,500 people living in the CUF neighborhoods that might come down and buy those $500,000+ luxury condos on the market. from Cincinnati beacon Now I know a bit about Gateway and she is sorely misinformed. If this is typical of how she portrays things that she doesn't agree with, then I can put no stock in what she says about the streetcar.
February 28, 200817 yr Heh, I hadn't even seen that she had responded to my comment yet... I'll have to go check it out
February 28, 200817 yr she's affiliated with building the kind of developments that depend on a car oriented culture, strip office space in the burbs. we'll see what she has to say to my response (however long the response takes to get posted)
February 28, 200817 yr she's affiliated with building the kind of developments that depend on a car oriented culture, strip office space in the burbs. then why is she even accredited to be giving advice on what is a strictly urban project. urban and suburban development are two completely different things are require different skills and understand to be successful with. cincinnati really needs the experts from portland, toronto, boston, etc. who know WTF they are talking about and how to sell this thing since they've been through it all already. its one thing to be against the streetcar with reason, but we should not have some misinformed nutcase parading around whose position in this project sorely inappropriate.
February 28, 200817 yr eh, opinions are like well, you know, everyone's got one I think we have her points well under control in the marketplace of ideas ;)
February 28, 200817 yr I'm sorry, who is she affiliated with again? The two in the middle look rather familiar, but I haven't lived in the area for years. Where are these? I probably visited a doctor at one of them back in the day. Or maybe they're just cookies from the cutter. ;)
February 28, 200817 yr There faceless buildings with no character at all! :evil: however, a little Lt rail action in front of them might dress 'em up!
February 28, 200817 yr I am starting to think she has a connection to some social services in her past, this might explain why she is against development in OTR. I know the building with the address 2001. That is off rt 50 up the hill when you get off 275.
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