Heh, yup...

Kevin Flynn for her spot

The sad thing is if Cranley had not been a LOSER last election for the congressional seat, we would probably would have had a groundbreaking by now.

 

One thing is for sure we know who not to vote for council next time.  Monzel.

Kevin Flynn for her spot

I would vote him in as well, even though he did give me a B for not being agressive enough ;) *bitter about second lowest grade in law school*

to prevent us from veering off topic too far, here is a post by John Schneider from Cicninnati.com

 

 

Streetcar Posting

By: John Schneider

"I would like to talk about the economic worthiness of Cincinnati’s streetcar investment, something that’s seldom been discussed in this forum.

 

Some say it’s unreasonable to equate the tremendous results Portland has achieved with its streetcar project with what we could expect here.

 

And they’re absolutely right. We should discount Portland’s experience relative to our hopes for the Cincinnati Streetcar. But how much should we discount them? Twenty-five per cent? … fifty per cent?

 

How about eighty per cent?

 

That’s what your consultants assume. They estimate the annualized economic development solely attributable to the Cincinnati Streetcar will only amount to about twenty per cent of what Portland has experienced.

 

But it’s not like it’s a poor rate of return -- far from it! The ratio of the benefits of the Cincinnati Streetcar in relation to its costs – with everything reduced to Present Value – is 2.7 to 1.

 

This is an astonishing rate of return for any kind of infrastructure project, public or private.

 

Allow me to place a 2.7 to 1 Benefit/Cost Ratio in context. I reviewed a similar study undertaken by OKI in 2003 to justify the widening of I-75 through Hamilton County, a project being designed right now.

 

That economic analysis was performed by the same team of transportation economists, though the firm has since been acquired and changed its name.

 

The estimated ratio of Benefits to Costs achieved from the widening of I-75 was an acceptable rate-of-return for a public project – 1.13 to 1, but it was less than half the return estimated for Cincinnati’s streetcar project, which, again, was estimated at 2.7 to 1. Think about that for a minute.

 

Here’s another way to look this: if the Cincinnati Streetcar is only half as successful as projected, it would still be a more worthy investment than adding another lane to I-75. The reason is that the streetcar’s benefits are sustainable, while the highway’s added capacity erodes over time.

 

This is the problem when we consider transportation choices. Projects anchored in the conventional wisdom – such as the need to widen an interstate highway – are seldom questioned, while projects that break new ground and serve new markets like the Cincinnati Streetcar are held to a much higher standard.

 

Another observation …

 

Critics say that Portland’s Streetcar is successful only because of that city’s Urban Growth Boundary, a sprawl-limiting measure that enables Portland to achieve the density necessary for its many great urban projects, a density of 3,939 persons per square mile. But here’s the thing -- even without an urban growth boundary, Cincinnati is 8% denser than Portland, with 4,249 persons per square mile.

 

A growing number of Cincinnatians want to live in walkable communities and liberate their time and money from the highway monoculture. The streetcar is a strategy to repopulate and re-energize our close-in neighborhoods. I hope that you’ll grant authority to our city administration to confirm how a modern streetcar system can work for Cincinnati."

Got a link to that?

Nevermind - here is the link to that post from John - http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/gov/2008/03/council-to-talk-streetcars-gambling.asp#comments

 

Its basically the speech he made at council on Monday.

^ Please note that in your example, you referenced the two biggest advertisers in the soda business as alternatives to each other, and left out other semi-popular brands that don't advertise such as RC, Diet Rite, and Jolt.  Intentional, or the subliminal effect of their mass marketing campaigns?  You be the judge.

 

You can still by RC Cola and Diet Rite?  Did you order them at the only still-functioning Rax?  (If you know where a Rax in actual operation is, please let me know.  Also, where do you buy you're Diet Rite and RC from?)

 

There are two Raxes (Raxen?) in Ashland, Kentucky. Both opened in the past 5 years. One's in a mall food court and the other's in a gas station.

So, basically where we are at is we're looking for funds to build the OTR loop and then they can start building?  Or is it lock down funds, then vote (majority vote approves it), then build?

JC

Currently, there is a proposed funding plan.  The finance committee has yet to approve that plan.  After finance committee approval, the finance plan will go to the full council, where it would also need to be approved.  After the full council approval, there is still much more to happen before building begins.  The current plan calls for a large chunk of money from private sources (individuals, businesses, etc).  That money will need to be worked out before we build.  But, to begin getting that money in place, the council needs to approve the finance plan, indicating the city's commitment to build.  The private dollars won't come until the city is committed.  The last bit is building (which will come with its own hurdles, with many more things to approve). 

 

In short, there are many many many more steps, but getting financing approved is the next big hurdle, and maybe the biggest hurdle.

^It should be noted that there are a lot of steps, but that they can happen relatively quickly once financing has been approved.  I doubt we'll see streetcars running 4Q 2010, but I don't think it is out of the realm of imagination to say that we could see them by 2Q 2011.

^ Agreed.  Financing is the biggest hurdle, then the water flows downhill.

^It should be noted that there are a lot of steps, but that they can happen relatively quickly once financing has been approved.  I doubt we'll see streetcars running 4Q 2010, but I don't think it is out of the realm of imagination to say that we could see them by 2Q 2011.

 

if we can get them running by April 29th, 2011, it would be sixty years to the day after streetcars stopped running in the city.

 

it should also be noted that during those 60 years, cincinnati lost over 1/3rd of its population

There was a Rax in operation in Athens, OH until 2004.  It was replaced by a Sonic.

From citykin blog:

Public transportation use is up 32% since 1995, a figure that is more than double the growth rate of the population (15%) and up substantially over the growth rate for the vehicle miles traveled (VMT) on US highways (24%) for that same period.

 

Light rail (modern streetcars, trolleys, and heritage trolleys) had the highest percentage of ridership increase among all modes, with a 6.1% increase in 2007. Light rail systems showed double digit increases in the following areas: New Orleans (128.6%); Denver (66.2 %); Saint Louis (27.0%); Philadelphia (26.2%); Kenosha (18.5 %); the state of New Jersey (14.7%); and Memphis (11.3%).

 

 

 

Not sure where he got the info from since the link at the top doesn't work, but thats impressive growth.

^It was in some sort of press release that I remember receiving via email.  Unfortunately I no longer have the source.

I posted on the Enquirer's politics blog site:

 

I'm sure these doubters are the same people that said the Fountain Square renovation was a terrible idea, and that "$43 million to move a fountain" was stupid. There was more to it than moving the fountain, and it has since revitalized the entire area. I was at Via Vite last night and people were still eating at 11:00... on a Wednesday night!

 

People are just happy this debate is heating up so they have something to bash and don't get called out on how Fountain Square enjoys remarkable success. It's time for the city to pony up and keep the momentum going!

if we can get them running by April 29th, 2011, it would be sixty years to the day after streetcars stopped running in the city.

 

Wouldn't that make for a great press conference?  The mayor christening the return of streetcars 60 years to the day that they stopped running.  Wow.  What a great target date.

There are two Raxes (Raxen?) in Ashland, Kentucky. Both opened in the past 5 years. One's in a mall food court and the other's in a gas station.

 

Thanks for the tip.  And yes, the plural of Rax is Raxen:

 

Rax

One entry found.

 

Pronunciation:

    \ˈraks\

Function: verb

Etymology:

    Middle English (northern dialect) raxen, from Old English raxan; akin to Old English reccan:

-to eat inordinate quantities of tasty food in a family friendly setting — more at TGIF

Date:before 12th century

 

chiefly Scottish : chow

Here's the link to the above study showing public transport increase:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/03/us-use-of-publi.html

if we can get them running by April 29th, 2011, it would be sixty years to the day after streetcars stopped running in the city.

 

 

 

Wouldn't that make for a great press conference?  The mayor christening the return of streetcars 60 years to the day that they stopped running.  Wow.  What a great target date.

 

if you start service at 5:55am, you have it down to the minute.  the destination bar should read "18 north fairmont" for the first five minutes of operation, then at 6am when regularly scheduled service would have started anyway, switch it over to 'findlay market' or 'the banks' or whatever the destination bar will normally read.

 

if we can get them running by April 29th, 2011, it would be sixty years to the day after streetcars stopped running in the city.

 

Wouldn't that make for a great press conference?  The mayor christening the return of streetcars 60 years to the day that they stopped running.  Wow.  What a great target date.

 

THAT WOULD BE SWEET!

It shouldn't actually take until 2011 to put Phase 1 in, should it?

 

if you start service at 5:55am, you have it down to the minute.  the destination bar should read "18 north fairmont" for the first five minutes of operation, then at 6am when regularly scheduled service would have started anyway, switch it over to 'findlay market' or 'the banks' or whatever the destination bar will normally read.

 

By the way, where did you find this information?

book ten of the ten volume streetcar series available at the ohio bookstore.

The only thing that could top that would be if the street cars became a great success than anyone could have expected and became a shining example nationally.

Since we've set a new all-time record of three days without a post in the 105 page Cincinnati streetcar thread, I thought it'd be a good time for a bump. Here's a (gasp!) positive letter to the editor that appeared in today's Forum section of the Enquirer regarding public transportation and streetcars...

 

AS GAS PRICES RISE, TAKE THE BUS MORE

 

As gas prices continue to soar with no sign of slowing down, I encourage the people of Cincinnati to start using and supporting public transportation.

 

Instead of driving to work, consider taking the bus. Instead of driving to the store, consider walking or riding a bike. Support transportation initiatives, like the Cincinnati streetcar and light rail.

 

Gas prices aren't going down, so try changing your habits. Public transportation is easy to use, and it's amazing how beneficial it is for your health, social life, well-being, and wallet.

 

Dan Rogers

Downtown

 

 

 

Next Portland Tour is April 18th, I am sure John will have more details

If you can't make it to Portland, you can get a ground level view of the city and how the streetcar line fits into the streets-cape at maps.google.com

 

1. Type in Portland OR

2. Zoom in to 11th Street and Taylor

3. Click on Streetview

4. Click the intersection.

 

Pan and enjoy.  The streetcar runs on 11th and 10th in that area

Can't hurt: http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080317/NEWS01/803170345/1077/COL02

In 2002 when the Light Rail plan was defeated, an average america's weekly wages would purchase about 34 barrels of oil. 

 

In 2007, this number has fallen to about 6.5 barrels of oil.

 

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3738#more

For any guests visiting this forum I encourage you to get all the facts.  So after reading all this propaganda, please look at this link.  http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=8463

 

:whip:

 

For any guests visiting this forum I encourage you to get all the facts.  So after reading all this propaganda, please look at this link.  http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=8463

 

:whip:

 

 

So are you saying that car dependent, sprawling cities are working? 2 hour commutes, government agencies unable to fund needed infrastructure and services, and the damage to the environment. Yep, I could see why we would not want to change the way we live and build our communities. What a joke!!! :whip:

Sprawling cities, stretch infrastructure, thus rising the prices for maintenance on utilities, underground pipes, over head electric wires and making cost of living overall more expensive compared to densely populated areas.

It's interesting that Cincyboondoggle's first post is a controversial one that is meant to stir the pot.  No introduction, no warm up and most importantly no contact information.  It is always important that when you spam message boards/blogs that you post anonymously.  That will then enable you to say whatever nonesense you would like without having it traced back to the (or any) real person.  Classy.

For any guests visiting this forum I encourage you to get all the facts.  So after reading all this propaganda, please look at this link.  http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=8463

 

It is also interesting that you are accusing individuals on here as being left-wing extremists...while you go on to post from an openly Libertarian organization (Cato).

 

From Cato's website:

The Cato Institute seeks to broaden the parameters of public policy debate to allow consideration of the traditional American principles of limited government, individual liberty, free markets and peace. Toward that goal, the Institute strives to achieve greater involvement of the intelligent, concerned lay public in questions of policy and the proper role of government.

http://www.cato.org/about/

 

In the case of the streetcar Cato's Mission Statement doesn't seem to apply.  The Cincinnati Streetcar will have a small impact on the size of government, while at the same time increasing personal freedoms.  It is a freedom to be able to choose to drive a vehicle...it is also a freedom to be able to choose not to.  You would then think that this would be something Cato would back since it is increasing personal liberties/freedoms.  Unless of course that line is there as nothing more than patriotic rhetoric meant to appeal to the masses.

UncleRando the reason I post this way is because of zealots like you will probably threaten me or my family harm.  I'm just a normal middle class person questioning an expenditure that will impact residents for generations.  You know that the famous subway system stopped in the late 20s took until the 60s to payoff.  Is it true that Portland transit ridership has fallen?

^I am able to express my point of view, and have reasonable dialogue with people.  I have not been threatened or hurt by anyone as a result of dialogue.  In my book transparency is big, and if you don't have the guts to have your words traced back to who you actually are...then what are those words really worth?

UncleRando the reason I post this way is because of zealots like you will probably threaten me or my family harm.  I'm just a normal middle class person questioning an expenditure that will impact residents for generations.  You know that the famous subway system stopped in the late 20s took until the 60s to payoff.  Is it true that Portland transit ridership has fallen?

 

So Mr. Boondoggle are you the guy we can lay blame to for the car/oil dependent, sprawling culture that the cato group protects?  You use of "Uncle Rando" and "threaten" in the same sentence is pretty preposterious. :whip:

 

 

More on Cato:

The Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank based in Washington DC, was founded in 1977 by Edward Crane and Charles Koch, the billionaire co-owner of Koch Industries, the largest privately held oil company in the U.S.

 

The Cato Institute holds regular briefings on global warming with known climate 'skeptics' as panelists. In December 2003, panelists included Patrick Michaels, Robert Balling and John Christy, all of whom believe that the current scientific understanding of climate change is inconclusive. Cato held similar briefings on climate change in Washington in July 2003 and 2002. (C. Coon, & Erin. Hymel (2003) Sound Policy for the Energy Bill, Heritage Foundation Reports, 23 September. ) According to People for the American Way, Cato has been funded by: Philip Morris, R.J. Reynolds, Bell Atlantic Network Services, BellSouth Corporation, Digital Equipment Corporation, GTE Corporation, Microsoft Corporation, Netscape Communications Corporation, NYNEX Corporation, Sun Microsystems, Viacom International, American Express, Chase Manhattan Bank, Chemical Bank, Citicorp/Citibank, Commonwealth Fund, Prudential Securities and Salomon Brothers. Energy conglomerates include: Chevron Companies, Exxon Company, Shell Oil Company and Tenneco Gas, as well as the American Petroleum Institute, Amoco Foundation and Atlantic Richfield Foundation. Cato's pharmaceutical donors include Eli Lilly & Company, Merck & Company and Pfizer, Inc.

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=9261

 

Between 1985 and 2001, the Institute received $15,718,040 in 112 grants from only ten conservative foundations: Castle Rock Foundation (reformed Coors Foundation), Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation, Earhart Foundation, JM Foundation, John M. Olin Foundation, Inc., Claude R. Lambe Charitable Foundation, Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation, Sarah Scaife Foundation, Carthage Foundation, David H Koch Foundation.

http://www.mediatransparency.org/search_results/info_on_any_recipient.php?51

 

The Cato Institute is a member of the State Policy Network 4/04

 

Now I understand why Cato might be opposed to something like rail/mass transit.

I guess if I had those sponsors backing me, I would love sprawl and car oriented development too.  :lol:

UncleRando the reason I post this way is because of zealots like you will probably threaten me or my family harm.  I'm just a normal middle class person questioning an expenditure that will impact residents for generations.

 

Personally, I've always considered UncleRando to be Public Enemy No. 1. Thank you Cincyboondoggle for having the guts to say it. ;)

Discussion and rational debate is good, but please do not feed the trolls.

 

Energy conglomerates include: Chevron Companies, Exxon Company, Shell Oil Company and Tenneco Gas, as well as the American Petroleum Institute, Amoco Foundation and Atlantic Richfield Foundation.

 

 

What a list... This is an enormously important post in this discussion.

Cincinnati is too small for this kind of thing.

 

i beg to differ that cincinnati is too small. there are MUCH smaller cities here in germany that have/are expanding/are currently building huge streetcar systems with many middle class individuals living in them. i must say...it's nice - especially since i don't have a car and can still get to each and every one of them by train.

 

my family lives in the 'burbs of cincinnati and the other day my dad said "man. gas is pretty expensive right now. your mom and i wanted to go downtown but we don't want to use all the gas to get there. i wish we had some sort of train system that would take us there."

 

by the way, hi. i'm michael. first time poster, long time reader!

I can walk from OTR to Fountain Square without problem.  Is the real problem that we have too many lazy and/or fat people that don't want to walk a little?

 

Where in OTR do you live?  I ask that because I live on the northern most end of OTR on Mulberry and that is somewhere in the neighborhood of 17 blocks from Fountain Sq.  Double that because I now have to walk home and I am at 34 blocks.  Now granted, I am both lazy and fat but I still see the importance of linking the two largest employment centers in Cincinnati together that goes beyond my desire to simply get to Fountain Sq..... or the Stadiums, or the arena, or the convention center, or Music Hall, or the restaurants of downtown, or up to UC, or to Findlay Market, or down to work anywhere in the CBD.  So I could walk everywhere, but do you?

 

wmwoodward, Welcome!

I think Cincyboondoogle owned stock in Bear Stearns. There are plenty of good arguments against the streetcar, those are near the bottom of the list.

UncleRando the reason I post this way is because of zealots like you will probably threaten me or my family harm.  I'm just a normal middle class person questioning an expenditure that will impact residents for generations.  You know that the famous subway system stopped in the late 20s took until the 60s to payoff.  Is it true that Portland transit ridership has fallen?

 

I'm a traffic engineer... what interest do I have in supporting the streetcar... yet I do...

 

There is a lot more here than being left wing extremists. Providing viable transportation alternatives is crucial in the modern world, and with each passing day the cost of driving / maintaining roads increases. I'm not saying let's abandon the roads, but rather we as a society need to think multimodally.

 

The subway... let's talk the story of the subway. In the 1920s, Cincinnati was one of the most corrupt cities in the US, led by Boss Cox. His corruption led to Murray Seasongood and the Charterite Movement, which eventually killed the corruption. Unfortunately, Boss Cox gave a lot of his friends contracts on the Subway. These contracts were completed slowly and horribly overbudget, which eventually killed the subway once Seasongood took over. The subway was approved in the mentality that corruption would not kill the project, yet that is exactly what happened. Without a completed project, it took years to pay off the work when it would have taken much less had the line been running.

 

Times are different. People pay for the privilege to use the roads all the time. What is the worth and benefit of these roads. When does the cost of maintaining them lead us to consider alternatives? I would hope that we think of viable alternatives now before it is too late.

UncleRando the reason I post this way is because of zealots like you will probably threaten me or my family harm.  I'm just a normal middle class person questioning an expenditure that will impact residents for generations.  You know that the famous subway system stopped in the late 20s took until the 60s to payoff.  Is it true that Portland transit ridership has fallen?

 

 

"questioning an expenditure that will impact residents for generations."       

 

Repeat that to yourself a couple times and then,

 

1).  Look into the "expenditures" of maintaining existing/building new Highways and Roads.

2).  Look into the "expenditures" of maintaining existing/building other infrastructure that goes along with the "Endless" pavement.

                                                                                        (Sewer/Water lines, Electric services,Civil Services, etc, blah blah!!!)

Folks, let's keep this thread on track please.  Keep the discussion to the streetcar and ONLY the streetcar (the gentrification subject can be put in ANOTHER thread).

It's interesting that Cincyboondoggle's first post is a controversial one that is meant to stir the pot.  No introduction, no warm up and most importantly no contact information.  It is always important that when you spam message boards/blogs that you post anonymously.  That will then enable you to say whatever nonesense you would like without having it traced back to the (or any) real person.  Classy.

 

I think we should all remember grasscat nee building cincinnati's tagline:

 

"I love it when people come into a message board and immediately begin to mix it up.  I mean, Jesus, at least say hello!  Do you walk into a room full of strangers, pick a random woman, and tell her she's fat? - grasscat"

 

 

Wow.  This crowd is touchy.  The streetcar discussion is not about streetcars, it is about redevelopment.  Your leaders have said that.  Mr. Schneider, Mr. Bortz etc..  So gentrification is very much a part of the discussion of streetcars.  Mr. Bortz has said it is not a transportation tool it is a development tool.  With redevelopment goes the elimination of affordable housing.  Which subsequently takes low income families out of the equation.  Come on, removing discussion of gentrification means, the discussion of development should also not get discussed.  Which leaves transportation.  So now that we are down to transportation can anyone explain why spending $25 million per mile to build a loop is good transportation policy? :wtf:

 

:shoot: