How do you distinguish from someone who is honestly interested from someone who has an ideological agenda?

 

Generally, the honestly interested don't ask pointed questions that are designed to make the project look bad regardless of the answer.  Some recent examples of this are:

 

"Can anyone explain why spending $25 million per mile to build a loop is good transportation policy?"

 

"Is it true that this plan uses up all the money that would build new fire stations and police stations?"

 

"Does the future subsidy to maintain this system actually use up dollars that would fund Human Services?"

 

All of the above questions could be legitimate if they were worded differently and did not infer that the answer is negative before receiving it.  These are statements more than questions, designed to imprint an idea on the reader that is more memorable than the answer itself.

 

 

Not to stir the pot, but perhaps those you view as zealots view you as zealots.  Maybe that is why they act the way they do.  Also, I should note that many of the posts here, which you assume no one else is aware of, are quick to nitpick Joe's argument, a classic sign of groupthink.

 

We are viewed, and have been specifically referred to as such within the last week by a new poster, cincyboondoggle.  We also make no assumptions about others being unaware of this board, and hohum even asked if anyone knows Joe Wessels so that we can invite him to be part of our discussion.  As for nitpicking his argument, I'd say that are some pretty obvious holes in Joe's logic, possibly due to a misunderstanding of what "The Streetcar" is all about, and I hope that perhaps he will find his way to this thread so that we can have an honest dialogue about that.

 

 

Oh, and Roxie is certainly not stupid, I don't think any of us would say that.  She knows exactly what she has to do to get higher office.

 

Another sign of groupthink, ascribing ulterior motives to any who disagree. 

 

Not true.  People on this board have been looking for some other motivation behind Qualls' recent behavior, precisely because she purports to be a streetcar supporter.  No one has assigned an ulterior motive to Joe Wessels, because he is simply opposed to the plan.  The situation is only different with Qualls because we are trying to reconcile her words with her actions, which has been a difficult task on the streetcar issue, and has led down some interesting paths.

To not theorize about motivation and simply taking the proposal at face value and subscribing to the popular opinion that this it was designed as a kill is group think.  We did the opposite.

Spotted this just now...follow the link to read the whole blog post/article.

 

 

http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/03/20/america-to-the-automobile-its-over/

 

 

I love the comment associated with the link.

 

3 in a bed? Is that Ms. Liberty or Mrs. McGreevey?

 

ha!

Anyone else think Cranley penned his own wikipedia article?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cranley

^ so modify it to better reflect reality.  :evil:

John served as a tutor in Winton Place Schools, as a big buddy at the Espy Boys Club in Lower Price Hill, as a volunteer at St. John's Social Services Center in Over-the-Rhine, and as a participant on a summer mission trip with Jesuit priests to the Dominican Republic.

 

 

I went to St. Xavier, that Winton Place tutor program was no big deal, not something you would put on your resume after applying for college.  It's not something you would even know about unless, ummm, you were writing your own biography. 

 

Also, with regards to Ms. Qualls, if she's such a rail advocate someone needs to challenge her to give up her parking spot across the street from City Hall.  She spoke at St. Xavier on Earth Day in 1994 or 1995 and gave the whole C02 global warming speech.  During the question & answer period I distinctly remember someone asking her if she drove to St. X that day and she said yes and a gym with over 1,000 people in it laughed at her.   

That was a special day. Brad Ruther (his brother is Cranley bud Elliott Ruther) made quite a scene with Qualls.

 

"The Earth is Our Mother we will remember her"

And back to being on topic:

 

from WVXU

 

Mayor Mallory supports streetcar plan

By Jay Hanselman 3/21/2008 6:17:23 AM

 

Cincinnati’s Mayor announced his support for a plan to bring streetcars back to the city in his State of the City address last month. Council has been debating the issue for several weeks. There’s been a lot of discussion about whether the plan is about transportation or economic development. Mallory says it’s both. Council has been debating the streetcar route and what to build first. Some want a Downtown loop constructed while funding is secured to take it to the Uptown area near the University of Cincinnati. Others want the first phase to go from the Riverfront to Uptown. Mallory also wants that to happen. But he says it’s a matter of finding the money to do it. He says city administrators have a plan to pay for the Downtown loop. You can hear an interview with Mayor Mallory discussing street cars Sunday morning on Cincinnati Edition beginning at 7.

 

Hmm, news to me that Mallory wants the city to build Uptown at the same time as Downtown.  This is the problem with spinning your position.

 

 

Mallory's initial position on the streetcar was to implement the Go-Cincinnati recommendations. I don't think this is a shift in position, just clarifying the way to implement the plan

Also, honest research could lead one to O'Toole or CATO.  Many do not know the bona fides of CATO are libertarian. Additionally, honest minds can disagree, but if you never engage them you stand little chance of changing their mind.

First, honest research could lead someone to O'Toole, but he has been shown to wildly distort the facts in his favor.  I have a problem with people who disagree for one ideological reason (i.e. from the CATO example, say they are libertarian), but try to mask that ideology by trying to discredit the success of other projects like this.  I have more respect for people who come out and say, "I don't believe we should publicly finance anything."

 

If Joe points to our quick defense of the streetcar as groupthink, it should at least be noted that this is happening as a result of attack, not because we are zealots.   

Not to stir the pot, but perhaps those you view as zealots view you as zealots.  Maybe that is why they act the way they do.  Also, I should note that many of the posts here, which you assume no one else is aware of, are quick to nitpick Joe's argument, a classic sign of groupthink.

I never said I viewed anyone as a zealot (please read what I wrote again). 

 

Oh, and Roxie is certainly not stupid, I don't think any of us would say that.  She knows exactly what she has to do to get higher office.

Another sign of groupthink, ascribing ulterior motives to any who disagree.  Additionally, lets take your statement at face value.  Roxanne knows exactly what she needs to do to get to higher office.  That means supporting either popular interests or policies that are for the good even if unpopular at the moment.  You say she doesn't support the streetcar.  Therefore, the streetcar must be neither popular nor good policy. QED.

For Roxie not to be looking towards higher office would be stupid, she came back in office and after a couple months on the job was one of the top two vote-getters in council.  Are you saying she shouldn't be looking ahead?  The dividends of the streetcar will not pay off for several years, and any liberal minded politician who agrees to spend $100 million of public transit is going to pay for it in a general election.

 

Also, although you are correct in "groupthink" ascribing ulterior motives, in this case I feel that classification is a bit off (also, isn't it a bit of groupthink to keep throwing around the term "groupthink", just like it was groupthink to throw around the word "boondoggle"?).  The average Joe sees Roxie as a champion of public transit, as did many on this board until recently.  We are just trying to figure out why she is voting the way she is voting - something every citizens should do, IMO. 

 

Mallory's initial position on the streetcar was to implement the Go-Cincinnati recommendations.  I don't think this is a shift in position, just clarifying the way to implement the plan

 

I am still confused at why anyone has trouble grasping that this is one project, whose rollout/funding/construction will happen in phases.  From the way that piece stated Mallory's position, it "sounds" like fund it all now, not phases.

 

Why does it give people palpitations when you say "Phase X"?  Seriously, this boggles my mind.

 

I guess what I am really saying is that I would like to see some more firm leadership from the top.  "I want this (whatever this may be)" is slightly less than helpful.

Cincinnati City Council is poised to approve City Manager Milton Dohoney's plan to build the streetcar.

 

City Council's Finance Committee will vote at 1:00p on Monday, March 24th to approve the streetcar financing plan in principle and authorize the city administration to meet with private and other governmental partners to secure the remaining funds. If passed on Monday, the motion will be approved by the full City Council at its regular meeting on Wednesday, March 26th at 2:00p.

 

This process has taken a little longer than expected, but the extra due-diligence has strengthened the plan. The vote next week won't authorize the sale of bonds or the purchase of streetcars, but it creates the framework in which those things will happen over the next year or so. We're on track, so to speak, to have the first streetcar operating in 2011.

 

If you wish to testify, you'll need to fill out a yellow Speaker's Card, which may be obtained at the City Clerk's desk on the right side of Council Chambers. You should limit your remarks to two minutes.

 

There's plenty of cheap parking in the old Lazarus Garage southeast of City Hall.

 

Cincinnati City Hall is located at 801 Plum Street, and Council Chambers are on the Third Floor.

 

Hope to see you on Monday.

 

John Schneider

513-579-1300

 

^ :clap:

Anyone else think Cranley penned his own wikipedia article?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cranley

 

Yep. And I will begin tearing out the article later tonight. It reads like a @#%ing resume... all positive of course.

Anyone else think Cranley penned his own wikipedia article?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cranley

 

Yep. And I will begin tearing out the article later tonight. It reads like a @#%ing resume... all positive of course.

 

It appears John is retiring from Politics, just leave it alone.

>"The Earth is Our Mother we will remember her"

 

No, it went "The Earth is Our Mother, we must take care of her". 

 

The student paper lit up with letters after the Qualls visit, I wish I  had saved them.  It's amazing to think back when the internet didn't exist and someone could lob statistics at an audience and there wasn't an easy way to check them, but one or two people actually went to the trouble of fact-checking her speech. 

Anyone else think Cranley penned his own wikipedia article?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cranley

 

Yep. And I will begin tearing out the article later tonight. It reads like a @#%ing resume... all positive of course.

 

It appears John is retiring from Politics, just leave it alone.

 

It's not that. There are plenty of buzzwords in the article, and it's one gigantic resume/personal good-news article that's not acceptable for WP regardless.

well...

 

Streetcar plan OK expected

BY MARGARET MCGURK | [email protected]

E-mail    |    Print    |    digg us!    |    del.icio.us!      |    Click-2-Listen

Cincinnati’s streetcar plan is expected to take another step forward Monday when City Council members vote on a motion to advance the project.

 

Council member Chris Bortz, chief sponsor of the plan for streetcar service linking downtown and Uptown through Over-the-Rhine, said he expects the Finance Committee to vote in favor of moving forward.

 

In part, that means giving City Manager Milton Dohoney authority to solicit private enterprises for contributions to the $182 million system.

 

The financing plan created by Dohoney and his staff calls for corporate underwriting to supplement money from the city, state and, eventually, federal government.

 

Dohoney earlier told committee members that he could not seek commitments from local companies until the council formally signals its intention to build the system.

182 million means uptown connection

^Yeah i was wondering where the additional 70 million is going.

it the additional 80 million

You mean extra 80, but yeah (heh, thomasbw beat me to it :))

 

Its always been a 182 million dollar "system", just the first 102 was the downtown loop.  I will be very curious to see the council meeting.  We shall see, sounding very optimistic :)

 

 

Well, I commend Qualls for wanting the bigger plan done quickly.  It's surprising because the majority of our city leaders are arrogant and love being the ones who say NO to a big and necessary project.  But as far as OTR goes, all the trashy people are moving from OTR over to Delhi and Mt. Washington.  You can't deny this fact.  But if you want property value to go up, you MUST get the trash out and quit letting super low income housing in.  Not that all lower income people are bad..I'm not saying that at all...but if the city wants to reinvent OTR, they need to start by taking a trash bag and scooping up all the thugs that hang out by the abomination of a Kroger we have down there.  Then once the streetcars are in and running, we won't have to walk with 45 knives on us anymore.  Thank JESUS for Gateway Quarter...its a start!

I'm feeling good about this news.  If they approve it to go ahead with the downtown loops and uptown, I'm okay with that to.  It may be more ambitious, but a little ambition at this point is a good thing. 

Well, I commend Qualls for wanting the bigger plan done quickly.  It's surprising because the majority of our city leaders are arrogant and love being the ones who say NO to a big and necessary project.  But as far as OTR goes, all the trashy people are moving from OTR over to Delhi and Mt. Washington.  You can't deny this fact.  But if you want property value to go up, you MUST get the trash out and quit letting super low income housing in.  Not that all lower income people are bad..I'm not saying that at all...but if the city wants to reinvent OTR, they need to start by taking a trash bag and scooping up all the thugs that hang out by the abomination of a Kroger we have down there.  Then once the streetcars are in and running, we won't have to walk with 45 knives on us anymore.  Thank JESUS for Gateway Quarter...its a start!

 

Let's stay on track with the streetcar discussion and not use generalizations about the residents of Over-the-Rhine, "thugs" and non-thugs.

Well, I commend Qualls for wanting the bigger plan done quickly.  It's surprising because the majority of our city leaders are arrogant and love being the ones who say NO to a big and necessary project.

 

I don't think that Qualls deserves any commendations regarding the streetcar plan.  Even though she claims to support bringing streetcars back to Cincinnati, she's voted against doing so at every meeting and even introduced a last minute plan that would have put the whole project on hold while the city studies an alternative route.  What's more, after that fell through, Bortz introduced a motion on March 10th to study the same connection between uptown and downtown that Qualls was pushing for, while moving forward on the OTR loop, and Qualls even voted against that!  Not exactly what I'd call getting this done quickly.

Guys, I wrote a letter to Cranley w/ my support on this project.  Anyone elese I should write to?  This is a key moment right now in this whole project.  Let me know what has to be done.

Pending the vote on monday, we will need to shift our strategy to focus on local business leaders and the heads of the fortune five hundreds in the city.  In the next few days, we will develop a contact list.

Mallory on Streetcars on WVXU

 

http://198.234.121.108/cincinnatiedition/032308_Complete.mp3

 

WOO HOO!!

 

Yeah, Mallory was right on.  Again, the consummate politician :)

 

Sounds VERY positive.  "Almost" a full on recognition that its going to be a majority, not an unanimous council vote.  He talked about the first 102 of funding, while talking about getting federal dollars last.  To me this signals at least the recognition that while this is one system it will be done in phases.  Again, it wasn't explicit, but in the read between the lines kinda way.  Also, stayed on point about the economic benefits of the streetcar versus alternatives.... All in all, pretty darn nice bit of support from the mayor.

^Agreed.  I also liked that he basically said that he was open to building the whole system at once, provided that someone can find the money for that, but that right now we're proceeding with the phased approach, based on realistic expectations of funding.

The whole argument about phases is a little beside the point. The best way to sell it is as one project but with the idea that as soon as enough track is in the ground to make it worthwhile to get the streetcars running we'll put them on the road and just open new parts of the system as they are ready. Rather than a phase one then phase two.

^ Imagine if the first mile of the Interstate Highway System had to wait until there was enough money in the bank to build all 45,000 miles of it at one time.

The whole argument about phases is a little beside the point. The best way to sell it is as one project but with the idea that as soon as enough track is in the ground to make it worthwhile to get the streetcars running we'll put them on the road and just open new parts of the system as they are ready. Rather than a phase one then phase two.

 

True, but I'm glad that he addressed it anyway, since there seem to be so many misconceptions regarding where it will and will not reach.  Most of the negative feedback I hear about the streetcar stems not from legitimate problems with the plan, but from the misconceptions of the public, so it's good to see that Mallory is ironing out the details every chance he gets.  Not that it is the public's fault; I just think that a lot of us in this thread take some the details of the plan for granted at this point, because we've been talking about it for so long now.

My dabblings in the suburbs reveal a public entirely ignorant of the details of this proposal.  This is nothing but the fault of the various media outlets that doesn't need to be repeated.  Perhaps most importantly they don't seem to understand that they as residents of Hamilton County outside the city limits are not going to be paying for this directly, but because they think they will, think that their opinion carries as much weight as a city resident.  When the public has difficulty understanding the basics of Hamilton County versus city matters, it's impossible to discuss the streetcar proposal.  There's just too much ground to cover before discussion of the streetcar can even begin.  It's as if the streetcar is coming down from Mars.     

The notion of phases is unavoidable if you aren't building everything all at once.  Conceptually, we (the general human kind sense of we) draw lines around things to delineate them, to conceptualize them, to give "it" a name. 

 

Correct me if I am wrong here, but I don't think anyone thought that what was being proposed currently was streetcars everywhere... as soon as it was funded.  To me, selling it as everything as soon as we can get tracks in the ground is a much tougher sell than a phased approach.  Personally, I don't have a problem with calling a spade a spade.  If its the first part of the system to be constructed, or funded, or whatever, its phase one.  What HAS startled me is how such simple terminology, such a basic conceptual understanding of how large scale projects such as this are built, has been used as a political wedge issue.  Of course, you build as you can, but how does it hurt to call "part 1" "part 1"?  Its been quite interesting to watch it unfold...

 

Anyhow, looking forward to some positive forward motion, regardless of any semantic arguments.

My sister lives in the KY burbs with her family and she works downtown at a social work agency; she has a lot of clients from OTR.  When I've talked to her about the streetcar, her immediate comment was $180M could be put to far better use.  She didn't seem to recognize it was about more than getting from UC to GABP.  I can see where she's coming from, though.  A streetcar isn't going to sweep away all the problems she sees on a daily basis.  I suppose it could relocate the problems. 

Council to move toward streetcar

BY THE ENQUIRER

CINCINNATI -- Cincinnati’s streetcar plan is expected to take another step forward today Monday when City Council members vote on a motion to advance the project.

 

Councilman Chris Bortz, chief sponsor of the plan for streetcar service linking downtown and Uptown through Over-the-Rhine, said he expects the Finance Committee to vote in favor of moving forward.

 

In part, that means giving City Manager Milton Dohoney authority to solicit private enterprises for contributions to the $182 million system.

 

The financing plan created by Dohoney and his staff calls for corporate underwriting to supplement money from the city, state and, eventually, federal government.

 

Dohoney earlier told committee members that he could not seek commitments from local companies until the council formally signals its intention to build the system.

My sister lives in the KY burbs with her family and she works downtown at a social work agency; she has a lot of clients from OTR.  When I've talked to her about the streetcar, her immediate comment was $180M could be put to far better use.  She didn't seem to recognize it was about more than getting from UC to GABP.  I can see where she's coming from, though.  A streetcar isn't going to sweep away all the problems she sees on a daily basis.  I suppose it could relocate the problems.

 

We can and should not expect the streetcar to solve all of our issues.  It may very well help in the correction of those issues, but it has primary objectives that we should measure it by.  If we start expecting a streetcar system to heal our social ills, income gaps, etc then we are going to lose focus of what this is actually meant to accomplish.

 

This is a circulator-level component of what could become a hierarchy of rail.  This circulator-level can/will work on its own merits, but it is part of what could be a much larger system.  We are taking the first step in becoming a city with a rail hierarchical network.  This is what we're trying to accomplish...anything else should be considered icing on the cake.

^ I totally agree with you that this is what Cincinnati should be working towards, but somehow I don't think my sister would see it that way.  Of course, she's not a voter in Cincinnati, so at least there's that.  :) 

^ The argument I have successfully made to people similarly situated to your sister is that the streetcar is not necessarily a direct benefit to organizations such as hers (although it may be depending on the type of organization), what it will bring is development, and with development comes tax money, and with the fatter city coffers, there will be more to go around for social services programs.  Its indirect, but if it works as it is supposed to work to spur development, that is one possible end result.  I am sure she knows as well as any that cities don't throw hundreds of millions of dollars at poverty issues, mostly because the end result is rarely measurable in actual reductions of poverty...  At least if the development happens, there is the potential for the incremental financing increases that can allow such programs to move forward.

wlwt.coms little vote poll has a majority of people in favor of the streetcar, check it out.

 

http://www.wlwt.com/news/15689242/detail.html

 

POSTED: 8:47 am EDT March 24, 2008

 

 

CINCINNATI -- A proposed transportation plan could get a boost or a setback on Monday.

 

A Cincinnati City Council committee is set to vote Monday on moving forward with a plan to bring back streetcars.

 

The proposed system would link the downtown business district with the uptown area where the University of Cincinnati and several hospitals are located.

 

The vote by the Finance Committee would give the city manager authority to solicit private contributions to supplement taxpayer money.

^ Thx for the tip.  I may have mentioned the increased population = increased tax base thing to her, but I don't recall.  I certainly didn't connect the dots where increased tax base = more $ for social services.

 

This may be heading off-topic, and if so, mods are welcome to move.  Has anyone considered the demographics (specifically yuppies vs. families) that city officials want in OTR?  There was a good piece in the Washington City Paper (DC's version of Everybody's News--how long have I been gone?) several years ago about the fact that although Washington's population was increasing, city officials were pretty much only interested in getting young singles into the city as the income to utilized services ratio was far more desirable than say, people who want to send their children to school.  Has any discussion/analysis regarding this issue happened in Cincinnati? 

I am just throwing this out there, no one attack me.  :police:

 

Does Cincinnati really NEED a Streetcar, or is this more of a WANT issue?  Are we hoping to get a streetcar just to say that we are on the same level of other cities with streetcars?  I am all about alternative modes of transportation, but how will a streetcar better ALL of Cincinnati; Price Hill, Hyde Park, College Hill and all points between?  I know a streetcar is a step in the right direction, don't get me wrong, but it only addresses a very small portion of the city.  There are about 350,000 people in Cincinnati and as of right now the street car has plans to connect roughly 50,000 (high estimates - OTR and Pill Hill).  Thoughts?  Don't attack the poster, I just want to see some solid answers to those questions.

if you add up the jobs in the CBD, OTR and Pill Hill, it is over 150,000

 

How will a streetcar system benefit all of cincinnati? by growing the tax base and increasing population, providing greater resources for all of the city of cincinnati. 

 

 

 

If speakers are allowed, this is what I intend to say at the council meeting:

 

I've sat in this chair and spoken to you before about what a streetcar means to me.  I sit here again because as a Cincinnati transplant I see the potential in this city, and I want to see it realized.

 

A streetcar fills a gap in the transportation systems we currently have, a gap that will be crucially important to attracting and holding on to the best and brightest talent.  This fair city has been lucky to be graced with the presence of an amazing density of large successful companies, but we cannot take their presence for granted.  One thing which is necessary to keep these giants in our midst is a large pool of bright young talent.  As things stand right now, the graduates from our best colleges and universities are fleeing the city of Cincinnati in droves.  They are leaving for Chicago, Portland, Seattle, New York, Boston, Atlanta, DC, and elsewhere.  When viewed from a purely economic vantage point, these moves make no sense -- our graduates are leaving the very affordable Cincinnati for cities where their starting salaries won't even leave them with a middle class level of disposable income.  Their reasoning has to be that they are seeking amenities elsewhere, efficient public transportation included, that cannot be found here.

 

I've been here in these chambers to witness a great deal of the wrangling over the current plan.  One thing that I think a majority of the members agree on is that we need to build SOME system to meet our future needs.  With the knowledge that we need to do something, it becomes much easier to see why we need to act now.  If the need to solve this problem "some day" is a given, it only costs more with each passing day.  We can either build it now or build it later for a LOT more money.

 

The streetcar is not a panacea, and viewing it as such detracts from real objectives of the system.  However, what is undeniable is that the streetcar is one means to knit together our urban fabric in positive ways that can have far reaching economic and social benefits.

 

I urge you to vote today to move the Streetcar one step closer to reality.

 

Comments/Suggestions are appreciated...

 

Looks good.  Maybe emphasize more or elaborate more about college grads leaving Cincinnati to other cities.  I am about to be a college grad, and this streetcar issue will either lean me one way or another on where I will look for a job once I graduate. 

Looks good.  Maybe emphasize more or elaborate more about college grads leaving Cincinnati to other cities.  I am about to be a college grad, and this streetcar issue will either lean me one way or another on where I will look for a job once I graduate.

 

You need to write a letter and/or email to all of the council members telling them just that.  Even a letter to the editor would be great.  I have done this many times now, but I still think that many people doubt that transit and these other types of things really work towards attracting YPs.  Mallory gets it, as do some of the council members.  But it is important that you let the politicians know that the youth vote in this city is active and demands to be heard.  Until then we can just keep hoping that Cincy becomes a magnet for young people.  Lets make it happen.