"I think it's safe to assume that "big time urban character" is a desirable trait in an urban setting.  Downtown Cincinnati isn't Rabbit Hash, KY; it's the home of skyscrapers, Fortune 500 companies, MLB and NFL teams, etc.  If the goal of type of an area isn't to attain/improve its "big time urban character", I'm not sure what its development plan should be.  As to the question of whether or not rail provides that, I can only point out that every major city in the developed world from Chicago to New York to London has rail transit.  Cincinnati has certainly proved that cities of medium size and importance don't *need* rail transit, but if we ever hope to be more than what we are currently, rail is certainly at the top of the list of our glaring omissions."

 

 

That's is Outstanding!!!! :whip:

To JMecklenborg:

 

You assume the majority of Cincinnatians want a "big-time urban character".

 

Are you John Cranley?  Seriously. 

 

 

>You additionally assume that the only way to reap a "big-time urban character" is a streetcar.

 

It's impossible to reduce parking needs without big-time rail transit. Seattle was able to do it to some extent with buses after building the downtown bus tunnel in the late 80's (basically a subway tunnel for buses), which was recently converted to mixed light rail/bus use.  Every single block in downtown Cincinnati has at the very least dozens, if not upwards of 1,000 parking spaces.  As has been discussed extensively, you can't get loans in this town without parking spaces -- lots of them.  You can in New York.       

 

Also, the I-71 light rail line was going to avoid (not purposefully) the Findlay Market area.  The Metro Moves plan would have seen at least a decade delay before the old subway tunnel was activated.  The Liberty St. station is close to Findlay Market but it certainly doesn't run right past it.  The streetcar proposal achieves as much or more of the residential redevelopment of the basin as the light rail proposals did for 1/10th the cost.   

 

 

>Think it a cowardly fall-back if you wish, but the fact of the matter is there will be trade-offs.  Rather than dodge this reality, why not engage it and try to justify the streetcar?

 

Well I don't think I need to repeat my 100+ posts on this thread from the last two years here.  They're sitting there waiting for you to discover them. 

 

 

>Dodging it just makes it seem more compelling to the opposition and undecided.

 

BTW nobody's intimidated by your pseudo-lawyer talk. 

Okay here is another switchback idea for the Clifton Ave. hill, a "Brewery District Switchback"...this one would travel on all city-owned property on the hillside between Renner St. or Mohawk St.  Another option is to run further uphill onto parts of Stonewall and Zier Place which exist only on the auditor's records.  There are one or homes on Zier Place at the Clifton Ave. turn which would be demolished and a traffic light installed at this turn to allow streetcars safe entry to Clifton. 

 

The overall distance of such a switchback orientation is almost exactly the same as heading east through the congested Clifton/Vine and McMicken/Vine intersections.  It obviously runs track straight through the Brewery District and some of the most fascinating vacant buildings in the city...what could be some of the unique redeveloped industrial properties in the country:   

 

I took this photo last fall from the Carew Tower...you can see Clifton Ave. right above the church spire at top right.  Mohawk St. runs right in front of the brewery, Renner runs behind and above it:

 

Also, here are some photos of the lower part of the Vine St. hill.  These were taken at 5:30pm on 3-26-08, a normal workday...obviously there isn't much congestion at all in this area:

 

 

I'm only counting 29 moving cars in the mile between Clifton Ave. and Central Parkway during rush hour:

 

 

Also, here's a stat to chew on...the original World Trade Center in New York City, where 50,000 people worked daily, had a 2,000 space underground garage.  How did those other 48,000 people get to work?  Meanwhile downtown Cincinnati has about 85,000 workers and 35,000+ parking spaces. 

^bury those overhead wires!

^Haha, you beat me to it.

 

Great shots, but geeez!     We are going to HAVE to bury those wires at some point along the way.     yikes!!!!

^---- The area immediately south of the big bend in Clifton Avenue was the site of a large landslide in the 1970's. Be careful there.

 

    You can also barely make out the site of the former Bellview Hill Incline in that photo.

That switchback line is impressive, and could certainly make for some really interesting redevelopment!

 

That hill is quite soft (I know only from cutting through to Clifton), nothing some concreted and street forming couldn't fix.

 

I dig the switchback.

That hill is quite soft

 

We have some hill slippage right now.  Seitz will probably be closed down this weekend.

:clap: great visuals as usual, jmecklenborg :clap:  Those power lines look a lot more intense in the distorted perspective of a telephoto shot.  But still, I'm glad ours in the CBD are buried -- contributes to the big-time urban character :-D

 

Is it me or does anyone else think there's a chance that chance.mcgee is somehow associated with Councilmember Qualls?  Posting those links to other streetcar studies, complaining that our study isn't as long as others, etc. -- sounds suspiciously bureaucratic to me.  But aside from that, the simple fact that chance.mcgee [laughably] considers Uptown to be THE HUB of the city diminishes everything he/she has posted. 

 

I for one totally disagree with the notion, seemingly repeated over and over in an attempt to make it the conventional and accepted wisdom, that the success of Phase I depends on a future Uptown route.  Council and the Administration have sufficiently indulged Qualls and Cranley on this point, IMO.  ENOUGH!  They're both posing red herrings  -- Cranley to kill it and Qualls to change it to the point where she can claim authorship. 

 

BTW, I think it would be more insightful to know, rather than the length of various studies, which cities have studied streetcars and opted not to build them -- and why.

Hey jmeck, what are the issues with skipping the switchback and just taking the streetcar up that empty space from Elm to Clifton?

 

^ Shifting the northbound alignment in OTR to Vine Street from Elm Street will increase the cost because Vine Street and its signalization will have to be converted back to one-way from two-way operation.

 

I'm not sure how you handle two directions of streetcar travel between, say, Findlay and Clifton, even if Vine Street were to become one-way. No way could that segment remain two-way and host both directions of streetcar service plus all the vehicle turning movements.

 

So if bringing the streetcar up the hill both ways on one street is going to be an issue, what's the answer?

THIS IS WHY WE NEED THE SKY LOOP;)

"So if bringing the streetcar up the hill both ways on one street is going to be an issue, what's the answer?"

 

I dunno. That's one of the questions that the $800,000 Alternatives Analysis for Uptown will answer.

does anyone else think there's a chance that chance.mcgee is somehow associated with Councilmember Qualls?

 

Who knows, this si t3h int4rw3b.

 

Seriously though, I don't know, but I doubt it.  Even if that is the case, none of chance.mcgee's postings were of the hit and run, troll nature, and all of his/her questions/concerns were addressed fairly by the posters here.

 

I am more than happy to go back and forth when there is some thought on both sides.

 

IMO, the very fact that some people on this forum are doing the academic exercise of plotting an Uptown route shows that the opponents have gotten traction with this red herring.  Now, it may just be sport, or a desire for as much transit as possible, but from what I've read it's my sense there are Streetcar supporters who've been persuaded of the necessity of an Uptown route and have bought into the rationale.  This is okay I suppose, but they should be mindful of playing into the hands of Qualls and Cranley.  I'd be willing to bet that their surrogates on this forum are delighted that people are investing their time and thought into Uptown.  But the practical reality is that it's a distraction that's delaying progress. 

I'd disagree. Having the streetcar reach the university remains absolutely vital to its success otherwise it is little more than a tourist item. I guess I'm part of the crowd that thinks that while the basin is great and all without the Uptown connector, it isn't really that valuable over the long haul.

 

Unfortunately, this is where Cbus's less ideal topography makes their streetcar easier to plan. It is all basically a flat grid, so they just make it long enough to connect downtown and OSU. We have that silly hill.

It's always made sense but lay track section by section and just do it.  What would further make sense would to build a connection to the airport but you lay the first bit of line down and then you build from there.  Why do I say this, because we are in Cincinnati, Ohio not in Shanghai.  If we don't build small section by section then we wont have the political will to get it done very quickly.  This city basically has issues with getting things done and I understand that's fair, no problem .  We're not where we need to be but we've got to do the things that will get us there.

I guess this is where I diverge from some.  I think CBD/OTR loop can be QUITE the success standing alone.  The current synergies along the ciruclator in CBD/OTR -- with the massive development push in OTR, combined with the timing of the Banks coming online, and a brand spandy new skyscraper, combined with the stadiums, the momentum around the square, the arts venues... all of this could come to complete fruition at roughly the same time.  That is HUGE, and I can't stress this enough.  This is what leads me to believe the CBD/OTR circulator can stand on its own.

 

This is why I think we can build the CBD/OTR circulator, while planning to build the connector and the second circulator uptown.  If I didn't think that the downtown circulator could be a success standing on its own, then my thoughts would likely be completely different.

 

The two areas are both huge business/commercial/residential sectors in the city.  Connecting them builds on the synergies going on in both of these areas.  Connecting to Uptown makes the system that much better.  I don't think that either circulator standing alone is as great a success as when they are connected.  So, do I want an Uptown circulator and a connector?  Absolutely.  It makes the whole system better.  I still see them as separate entities (from a political standpoint), viable on their own, financable on their own, and better when connected.

I agree with hohum. I think that the idea of the streetcar is to capitalize on the vacant housing stock in downtown and OTR first and foremost. Having this will attract not only new residents to downtown, but also businesses. People keep saying that without uptown this is only a tourist attraction. I strongly disagree. If you live in Northern OTR, downtown is a long walk, but the streetcar will make it so much more convenient for residents to commute to downtown for work or entertainment. Also YP's tend to love the idea of mass transit. This sign of progress will help YP's want to live in OTR as opposed to Hyde Park or Oakley, where they can't afford to own and have to rent.

The Uptown section of this project just makes it better, but there is no reason to build uptown if you dont have it going downtown. Downtown section could stand alone, but not the uptown section.

Merely my opinion.

It seems like both sections could probably stand alone.  But why would you want to stop?

Im not saying to stop. I just think that the uptown line relies more heavily on the downtown line than the uptown line. I feel that the downtown line will do exactly what it is supposed to even without the uptown line, but i dont feel the same about the uptown line.

 

I want it all but i dont think they need to happen at the same time. I think the downtown line should come and the rest follow

I agree with BDRUF. The genesis of this whole plan was to create an economic development tool to increase property values and make development possible in OTR. If we build the OTR/Downtown connector, precisely that will be accomplished--thereby creating more than just a novelty tourist attraction. It will make residential redevelopment on a large scale feasible in the Brewery District (it is currently not feasible)and BECOME a viable transit option for YPs seeking housing in the basin (connecting them to jobs downtown). The uptown loop which will happen later, will be a huge added bonus. It wouldn't be surprising to see more spurs coming off this first loop like the Uptown route (one to Union Terminal and Price Hill perhaps??), but to make the downtown route sustainable, the Uptown one is not necessary. I understand that many folks would have liked to hear Bortz say that on Monday, but I also understand his evasive maneuvers to maintain the possibility of compromise. Isn't it revealing that by demanding Bortz declare a position, Cranley was trying to polarize council, and thereby kill the project. I congratulate Mr. Bortz on keeping his cool, and acting dipolmatically!  :angel:

I understand misgivings about using any sort of tax to pay for this plan, but what is the argument against charging a small surcharge downtown for surface parking to add to the financing plan? Parking in Cincinnati is relatively cheap compared to other major cities. Perhaps if this isn't in the initial financing, it is suggested in that scenario where private or state funding doesn't come through?

You guys have some good points.  The problem is that not many people in Cincy have any idea how a major city works.  Leaders kill projects like this because they're scared of failure and scared of looking bad if such projects fail.  Bortz is awesome and yes it was great the way he kept his cool.  We have fantastic ideas put on the table, and somewhere down the line there's at least one to two key people saying no just because they CAN.  The great thing is Qualls and other council members really want to see the streetcars become a reality.  Where was all this enthusiasm in the 90's?.

I wanted to recount a conversation I had over breakfast last week.

 

The consultant who led the first phase of the Uptown Transportation Study was in town last week getting the lay of the land in preparation for bidding on the next phase of the Study, the Draft Environmental Impact Statement for a new I-71 Interchange serving Uptown. He's a big rail supporter who follows Cincinnati news pretty carefully. From time-to-time, I get a note from him asking what's going on.

 

A little history on the Uptown Transportation Study. It's one of, I dunno, probably six or seven corridor studies that have been conducted here over the past thirteen years. They've been done for I-71, I-75, I-74, the Central Area Loop, and the area around CVG, and probably a couple others I wasn't involved in. One is now underway for I-471. We've all learned a lot about how regional traffic flows and what's possible to build and what's not. I can't imagine how much time that volunteers and public officials have collectively spent on these corridor commissions -- probably tens of thousands of hours over the years. A lot has come out of them -- the new Fort Washington Way and the Regional Rail Plan come immediately to mind. The Cincinnati Streetcar's genesis was in the Central Area Loop study of how to connect Covington, Newport and Cincinnati. The reason we reinforced the Main and Walnut Street bridges over Fort Washington Way for light rail and streetcars was because someone on the I-71 Corridor Commission was thinking ahead.

 

Anyway, back to our breakfast last Thursday. Toward the end of our meeting, he brought up the subject of the Cincinnati Streetcar. He seemed puzzled at the turn the debate had taken, the insistence that it go Uptown in the first build.

 

Both of us recalled that Downtown/Uptown travel was estimated using OKI's Regional Travel Demand Model and that it showed very little origin and destination travel between these two points. He couldn't remember what the counts were, just that they were quite small. He seemed kind of surprised that some Council members were making such a big deal of the necessity to go to Uptown, or else build nothing.

 

He remembered that in the early days of the Uptown Study (this was probably in, say, 2004) Clifton Heights developer Dan Deering and I brought up the idea of laying out a Downtown/Uptown Streetcar route as a placeholder for when we were ready to build it -- just to ensure that we built nothing that would conflict with it and so that everyone would have an understanding of where it would go. We brought this up at the first couple of meetings. The reaction: no interest. Of all the members on this huge commission of probably fifty or so Cincinnatians that included UC, Xavier, all of the hospitals, the Zoo, neighborhood business districts, you name it -- no one wanted to talk about rail transit from Downtown to Uptown. Of all the recommendations made in the course of that study, my recollection is that way over 90% of the funds were reserved for roadways. So it does make me wonder why there's all the fuss now.

 

Oh, and the elected official who led the Uptown Transportation Study, the one who pulled together the money to pay for it from the city and other levels of government, the one who takes credit for the study, the one elected official who could have ensured, but didn't, that streetcar service to Uptown would be part and parcel of any plan to build a streetcar in Cincinnati -- who was that?  John Cranley.

 

 

That is a very very intersting bit of information John, thanks for sharing!  Thats a whole new perspective on whats going on right now...

I was at the unveiling of the Bockfest stein on Friday evening.  Lots of fun, but I digress.

 

There was an interesting conversation going on in the middle of the room with some interesting people:  Greg Hardman, Jim Tarbell and one John Cranley.  I tried to eavesdrop, but the room was too loud.  I would have loved to see what they were talking about, as they were having quite the lengthy conversation.  Hmmmmm

^^^The music for that Cincinnati video is awesome, but I now hate you lostincincinnati.

For those who believe that it would be more prudent to subsidize the construction of more downtown and OTR condos instead of investing in the public realm by building the streetcar, read this:

 

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2008/03/31/story2.html?b=1206936000^1611958

 

Downtown has a 27-month supply of unsold homes right now. Food for thought.

The reason that there's all the fuss is because many people want to create something that isn't currently in place.  They want to create/strengthen that link between Uptown and Downtown; they want a real corridor.  As John doesn't mean we have it but people want it; hell I want it but not at the expense of work done now.

So John do you think that Cranley and Qualls know this information about the low projected ridership and will then use it to scuttle the entire project?  I'd hope that Mr. Cranley read the report that he apparently worked to have written.  Certainly in my observation there is hardly any vehicular traffic on Clifton, Vine, or Sycamore.  I think that's confirmed by the lack of traffic signals on any of those hills, even the confluence of Sycamore/Dorchester/Auburn Ave.  I think many people driving to or from the two areas travel on Central Parkway, Reading, or I-75 in order to avoid Over-the-Rhine.

 

Also I want to say here that the Columbus and Cincinnati projects are very different and although the Columbus routing is on paper much more straightforward I think it's going to run into a lot of operational problems that aren't going to happen in Cincinnati.  Specifically, although Columbus is organized on a grid, it is quite irregular and High St. is not paralleled in Short North, the most congested area.  Whereas Uptown > Downtown buses in Cincinnati travel on a variety of hills and parallel downtown streets, in Columbus several routes are funneled onto High St.  The street itself changes widths randomly, meaning a steady track configuration and streetscape can't be carried out, and much on-street parking will likely be eliminated.  I've witnessed total gridlock on High St. in Short North before events...COTA buses divert to Summit St. whereas the streetcars will be stuck. 

^ I doubt that either Cranley or Qualls are aware of these data.

 

^ Agreed.  Also, I'd be hesitant to point it out to them.  It would be a different story if I didn't believe that at least one of them wants to sink this venture and is only feigning interest in an uptown connector as a face-saving measure while they let this project die on the vine. 

 

Even though those results indicate that an uptown connector might not be as "in demand" as some would hope, I'm afraid that they could seize on this as "proof" that Cincinnatians don't want rail at all.

Even though those results indicate that an uptown connector might not be as "in demand" as some would hope, I'm afraid that they could seize on this as "proof" that Cincinnatians don't want rail at all.

 

Not a big risk. Ridership was estimated for the Hamilton County part of the Regional Rail Plan in 2002. Even with $1.50 gas at that time, there were about 100,000 daily riders. That's a little more than the combined bus ridership on Metro and Tank in seven counties of Ohio and Kentucky today.

 

In a sense, I think this is Quall's problem with the streetcar. She wants to go after those 100,000+ light rail riders instead of focusing, for now, on the 4,850 daily riders estimated from the first leg of the Cincinnati Streetcar. Nice if you can do it.

For those who believe that it would be more prudent to subsidize the construction of more downtown and OTR condos instead of investing in the public realm by building the streetcar, read this:

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2008/03/31/story2.html?b=1206936000^1611958

Downtown has a 27-month supply of unsold homes right now. Food for thought.

With 19 and 27 months of inventory, sellers in Indian Hill and downtown must either be aggressive on price or willing to wait for the housing market to turn around, said local Realtors.

 

From another local/downtown Realtor...

 

 

Not true at all John.  You and I usually agree when it comes to things for OTR and the CBD however this is very inaccurate and not what the article says.  Those condos that are being subsidized in Downtown and OTR are selling faster than they can be listed in MLS in some cases.  Look at the sales, downtown and OTR is one of the only places in Cincinnati that is still selling strong.  And OTR is the strongest of the two.  Out of 22 closed sales in the first 2 months in "city" which is CBD, OTR and Mt. Adams,-- Gateway represented 11 / half of all sales and and almost every single one at list.  Do not make the mistake of pitting one project that clearly will help us against another project that clearly helps us.  Without places like the condos, Lavamatic, Metronation, Mica, Park and Vine, and the increased safety that is achieved by the redevelopment of these spaces, the streetcar is not as viable nor is any other proposed initative.  We can work together and achieve both.

 

>Nice if you can do it.

 

Agreed, and the light rail plan was never going to directly help OTR in the way that this streetcar plan will.  The Walnut/Main light rail alignment made sense for reaching the Mt. Auburn Tunnel but did not directly improve OTR property values west of Vine or the Findlay Market area at all.  And although the old subway was planned to be put into operation, it was in phase 4 or 5 and they could easily have run out of money by that point (that's what happened to Seattle's light rail project, where the north leg has been shortened and delayed for 15 years), meaning 30+ years of deterioration in northwest Over-the-Rhine, meaning nothing would be left.

 

More letters "brilliance" from today's Enquirer letters to the Editor

 

STREETCARS WILL WORK IF WE BAN TRAFFIC

 

It looks like Cincinnati streetcars are going to become a reality. With all the pluses and minuses bouncing around, there is one item about the Portland streetcars that I don't think has yet come to light. A good portion of ridership is by people going from their parking area to the downtown area.

 

Why, you ask? It seems that there is no traffic allowed in the immediate downtown corridor for several blocks in all directions. The only way to get to the downtown area is to either walk or hop the streetcar.

 

Do Cincinnatians want to walk?

 

Ray Vedder, Kings Mills

 

 

^ Michael, I just linked to what the Business Courier published. You have information that was unavailable to the article's author, apparently. I'd write a LTE to the Courier rebutting the facts as you know them.

The Courier was speaking more of the City as a whole, and when they link Indian Hill and Downtown, they are speaking of the higher price point condos, which represents a minority percentage of the total.  I read it that way, however I believe it was poorly worded to indicate that downtown sales as a whole are hurting.  I wish they would just go to the MLS and just post the facts.

 

"With 19 and 27 months of inventory, [all of MLS] sellers in Indian Hill and downtown must either be aggressive on price or willing to wait for the housing market to turn around, said local Realtors." 

 

This represents only a price point that is at or about the 400,000 and up price point.  Even the 300's are moving right now and that is the top end of OTR.

More letters "brilliance" from today's Enquirer letters to the Editor

 

STREETCARS WILL WORK IF WE BAN TRAFFIC

 

It looks like Cincinnati streetcars are going to become a reality. With all the pluses and minuses bouncing around, there is one item about the Portland streetcars that I don't think has yet come to light. A good portion of ridership is by people going from their parking area to the downtown area.

 

Why, you ask? It seems that there is no traffic allowed in the immediate downtown corridor for several blocks in all directions. The only way to get to the downtown area is to either walk or hop the streetcar.

 

Do Cincinnatians want to walk?

 

Ray Vedder, Kings Mills

 

 

 

It also seems The Enquirer would indulgently print a letter that says 2+2=3 if the author were someone from any outlying area, thus proving the paper's "reach".  This is essentially what it's done by printing the absolute falsehood that downtown Portland isn't accessible by cars.  Didn't Randall O'Toole spout this lie during his recent 700WLW interview?

 

It's especially sickening when lies are perpetuated by the news media.  I have to keep reminding myself that newspapers aren't necessarily in the business of information, but merely in business. 

More letters "brilliance" from today's Enquirer letters to the Editor

 

STREETCARS WILL WORK IF WE BAN TRAFFIC

 

It looks like Cincinnati streetcars are going to become a reality. With all the pluses and minuses bouncing around, there is one item about the Portland streetcars that I don't think has yet come to light. A good portion of ridership is by people going from their parking area to the downtown area.

 

Why, you ask? It seems that there is no traffic allowed in the immediate downtown corridor for several blocks in all directions. The only way to get to the downtown area is to either walk or hop the streetcar.

 

Do Cincinnatians want to walk?

 

Ray Vedder, Kings Mills

 

 

Seriously?  Has this guy ever been to Portland?  Thank you, Enquirer, for publishing letters whose main point is BLATANTLY UNTRUE.  Do they do any fact checking at all, or do they simply publish whatever anyone writes, regardless of whether it is based in reality?  I'm guessing that this guy is confused by the idea that portland has a few bus only and rail only streets that cars are not permitted on, which allows the light rail and bus service to zip through downtown even during rush hour.  There aren't many of these and they certainly don't prevent anyone from driving and parking in any portion of the city.  Meanwhile, the streetcar doesn't run on any of those streets, it runs ONLY on streets that it shares with cars and SUVs.  So, either this guy has no idea what he is talking about, or he's just throwing misinformation out there, hoping it takes hold.  Also, note where he hails from.  Buddy, this thing is never going to "threaten" Kings Mills...

It also seems The Enquirer would indulgently print a letter that says 2+2=3 if the author were someone from any outlying area, thus proving the paper's "reach".

 

Agreed.  Hey urbanpioneer, maybe we should start writing ultra-positive letters to the editor, stating that we're from Mason, West Chester, Union, Kings Mills, etc.  They might actually get published then...

Heh, I am in the process of testing this hypothesis ;)

 

Joo know my zip is 45211 don't ya ;)

More letters "brilliance" from today's Enquirer letters to the Editor

 

STREETCARS WILL WORK IF WE BAN TRAFFIC

 

It looks like Cincinnati streetcars are going to become a reality. With all the pluses and minuses bouncing around, there is one item about the Portland streetcars that I don't think has yet come to light. A good portion of ridership is by people going from their parking area to the downtown area.

 

Why, you ask? It seems that there is no traffic allowed in the immediate downtown corridor for several blocks in all directions. The only way to get to the downtown area is to either walk or hop the streetcar.

 

Do Cincinnatians want to walk?

 

Ray Vedder, Kings Mills

 

 

 

 

I think this guy is confused with the free parking on the street area and the places were you have to pay to park.

So logically the people park their cars for free and jump on the street car to get to were they want to go. Plus the paid parking with in this

zone help contribute to the cost of running the street car.

 

I'm Sure John Schneider can back me up on this or adjust my statement if i'm a little off.

>Agreed.  Hey urbanpioneer, maybe we should start writing ultra-positive letters to the editor, stating that we're from Mason, West Chester, Union, Kings Mills, etc.  They might actually get published then...

 

 

Did anyone see The Enquirer's entry in the Findlay Market Parade?  It was a delivery truck with a fake headline on the side, it said something like "Fringes Propel Growth".  The irony could not be lost with vacant Race St. row houses looming over the truck. 

 

The Enquirer is fighting the Dayton Daily News for supremacy in Butler County and Warren County...this is why the Dayton Daily News positioned their new press on I-75 south of I-675. 

I really wish we could swap the CE for the DDN ...

I wish I knew someone in Dayton who could mail a Letter to the Editor for me -- I bet it would get printed.  But maybe not if it's in favor of the Streetcar -- it seems The Enquirer isn't on board.

how about testing the theory in reverse, write a letter to the Dayton Daily News from somewhere in Butler county about Cincinnati Streetcars and see what happens?

The Enquirer's is fighting the Dayton Daily News for supremacy in Butler County and Warren County...this is why the Dayton Daily News positioned their new press on I-75 south of I-675. 

 

That, and the location is central between Dayton and the other COX papers in Butler and Warren Counties.

Did anyone see The Enquirer's entry in the Findlay Market Parade?  It was a delivery truck with a fake headline on the side, it said something like "Fringes Propel Growth".  The irony could not be lost with vacant Race St. row houses looming over the truck. 

I thought the exact same thing as I saw that ugly truck in the parade.  And then there were some meek employees peeking out of the back of the truck and they seemed like they were lost or something.

I really wish we could swap the CE for the DDN ...

Be careful what you wish for!!