Here's more information too, if you want it, LincolnKennedy.

 

http://hometown.aol.com/chirailfan/cindate.html

They aren't necessarily at UD (university of dayton, right?), but they do have some around the city of Dayton.

 

I'm not sure.  A friend of mine works for UD, and I know that these buses run right past his old place near campus.  I'm not familiar at all with the rest of Dayton, so I can't really comment on how extensive the system is.

Boston runs electric buses as well, but the alternate between electric and diesel (they may be NG by now, but not sure on that).  Where there are overhead wires, they make use of them and run full electric, where there aren't, they run diesel.  The downside to this plan is as already mentioned, the two wires.  With the two overhead wires you a) get sparking, and b) the wire lines take a beating as the bus bounces its way down the street.

Today 700WLW ran an anti car-pooling promo bumper, insinuating that anyone you're set up to car pool with would be at the very least highly annoying, if not rabid.  I guess the problem with car pooling from radio's perspective is that people riding in the same car would argue over the radio and possibly not listen to the radio at all.  Or people riding in cars together TALK TO EACH OTHER instead of listen steadily to the radio.  No doubt they have precise data on people's radio listening habits, it would be pretty interesting to see.   

I wonder how many people get shot and mugged carpooling?

If you are against light rail, streetcars and buses it makes all kinds of sense that carpooling is just as crazy.

I mean look, you're going to be trapped in a small space with another person with no control over your own destiny.

ANTI-AMERICAN!

 

At least they are consistant, I'll give them credit for that.

http://natilife.blogspot.com/2008/06/cincy-quips-vol-6.html

 

Even back then, we had a "third-rate mass transit system!" (2:18 in)

 

    I just checked my "Wagner and Wright" series of books on the Cincinnati Streetcars for the reason that Cincinnati switched to trolley buses, or trackless trolleys.

 

    Wagner and Wright did not give a specific reason. However, I infer the following:

 

    The Cincinnati Streetcar system from the beginning was not planned rationally, but grew organically over time, and was always changing. In order to change a route, all of the infrastructure including the wires and rails had to be changed. Switching to rubber-tired vehicles allowed less expensive route changes. Ridership was declining at the time, and long-term prospects were not good, so it probably did not seem prudent to invest in streetcar rails.

 

    There were still a lot of brick and stone streets at that time, and the City of Cincinnati and other cites such as Lockland were paving their streets with asphalt, and wanted the streetcar rails removed.

 

    It seems that the goal was to replace the entire streetcar system with motorcoaches; however, they didn't have the infrastructure for motorcoaches in terms of maintenance facilities, fueling stations, and so on. It was easy to convert to trackless trolleys by simply purchasing new vehicles. Some routes were being converted to motor coaches while others were converted to trackless trolleys, depending on factors such as which maintenance facilities they operated out of.

 

    Even so, there were some of difficulties converting to trackless trolleys. Some lines ran partly on private rights-of-way, which had to be paved.

Here's more information too, if you want it, LincolnKennedy.

 

http://hometown.aol.com/chirailfan/cindate.html

 

Thanks.

Here's a great article from Seattle about the debate between streetcars and electric trolleybuses published on May 6, 2008.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/transportation/362080_streetcar07.html

 

Except for the overhead powerlines, the electric trolleybuses (ETBs) are

indistinguishable from normal buses.  Both ETBs and streetcars use electric power but the similarities stop there.  ETBs tend to be quicker and more versatile than streetcars because new routes are easy to lay/hang and does not disrupt streetlevel construction.  Streetcars are more desirable in my opinion because they lack any stigma that city buses might have and they are new, quiet, clean and offer a smoother ride.  Also, they are COOL.  The biggest advantage is probably the set in stone (pavement) streetcar route.  Businesses and residents can count on the streetcar line not disappearing tomorrow.

 

 

ETBs have an extensive network of overhead powerlines throughout the Dayton area including many suburban cities.  UD is a pedestrian campus but most of the surface streets surrounding campus have ETB powerlines.

 

August 8, 2008 will mark the 120th anniversary of continuous electrically-propelled public transit in Dayton. No other city in the USA can make that claim.

 

Only five cities in the USA currently have electric trolleys - Boston, Dayton, Philadelphia, San Francisco and Seattle.

 

Some resources:

http://web.presby.edu/~jtbell/transit/Dayton/

http://web.presby.edu/~jtbell/transit/types/etb.html

http://web.presby.edu/~jtbell/transit/SanFrancisco/TC/

http://web.presby.edu/~jtbell/transit/Philadelphia/TT/

 

http://www.greaterdaytonrta.org/about_ETB.asp

My idea of the day to help fund the streetcar line:

 

Return Liberty St. to its original width (or go even narrower) between Central Parkway and Main St. and sell city-owned ROW to developers, use that money to help fund the streetcar.  They'd probably get several million dollars for those numerous slivers of land and reverse one of the worst decisions the city's ever made. 

 

 

 

    Bravo.

My idea of the day to help fund the streetcar line:

 

Return Liberty St. to its original width (or go even narrower) between Central Parkway and Main St. and sell city-owned ROW to developers, use that money to help fund the streetcar.  They'd probably get several million dollars for those numerous slivers of land and reverse one of the worst decisions the city's ever made. 

 

 

 

Please please please bring that up to someone with some say in the matter.  That's quite a great idea.

Return Liberty St. to its original width (or go even narrower) between Central Parkway and Main St. and sell city-owned ROW to developers, use that money to help fund the streetcar. They'd probably get several million dollars for those numerous slivers of land and reverse one of the worst decisions the city's ever made.

 

It could have been much worse.  Planning documents from the 40s show designs for a raised freeway at liberty. 

When was Liberty widened?

I don't know the specific year but it was around 1965-1970.  As is obvious when looking down the street today, every building on the entire south side was demolished between Central Parkway and Sycamore and the street was widened from 66ft. between property lines to about 95ft. between property lines.

 

I believe the primary motivation was to allow trucks to move between the never-built Queensgate factories and Reading Rd.  Liberty St. didn't even exist between Liberty Hill and Reading, this stretch was plowed through and destroyed some of the best old-world streetscapes in the city which are documented in Caroline Williams' "Cincinnati Scenes" book.  I think it would be tough to argue for having that stretch turned back into residential since it is now in line with an I-471 interchange.  But there almost never seems to be much traffic on Liberty, since after all OTR is a mostly empty neighborhood.       

Yeah. When I was walking around and driving around OTR, DT Cinci, etc., I was amazed at the LACK OF traffic for a city of this size. When I bike in DT Lexington, or anywhere for that matter, I'm constantly fighting traffic. There are few through routes here, but in Cinci and OTR, there are... plenty.

Yeah. When I was walking around and driving around OTR, DT Cinci, etc., I was amazed at the LACK OF traffic for a city of this size. When I bike in DT Lexington, or anywhere for that matter, I'm constantly fighting traffic. There are few through routes here, but in Cinci and OTR, there are... plenty.

 

Yep, that's why I'm always amazed when people say they don't go downtown because of the traffic.  A few years ago people asked when I would want to move downtown because then I would be near all the traffic.  :laugh:

A couple of interesting facts learned at the Cincinnati Streetcar Forum today:

 

* Portland's total electric bill for its four-mile, double-tracked streetcar line is around $150,000 per year -- about as much as power as 50 to 100 houses with a total population of, say, 200 to 300 people might use in one year. But that $150,000 worth of electricity moves 3,600,000 people per year on the Portland Streetcar. Kind of puts it in perspective.

 

* Nine percent of the passengers on the Portland Streetcar have nontraditional mobility. They are in a wheelchair, on a motorized scooter, pushing a stroller, pulling a shopping cart or luggage, or they have a bicycle.

 

* Before Tacoma opened its streetcar in 2003, a diesel bus served the very same route. The annual ridership on the bus route was 178,000 passengers. The ridership on the Tacoma Link streetcar traveling the same route today: 800,000 passengers.

The last bullet really got me!

 

    Does the Tacoma line, or any other streetcar line for that matter, make money? Do fares cover operating costs, or even operating costs plus capital costs?

^ Does I-75 make money?  Sorry, I know I'm being a smartass.  I'd love to see a comparison of the operational costs and ticket revenue on that Tacoma diesel bus versus the streetcar line that replaced it, though.

 

  I know you're kidding, but unlike the streetcar, I-75 has a source of funding.

 

    I would also like to see a comparison on the Tacoma line.

I-75 has a source of funding

 

Really? And were is that at?

I'm sure you actually mean the federal transportation bills that are wrestled over for every new budget. Theres no actual source of funding for it, it comes out of one giant pot.

And there is no guarantee that the next bill will have money in it for any one specific project.

I-75 has a source of funding

 

Really? And were is that at?

 

Well, roads are funded through the gas taxes and license plate registration fees. Those would, in fact, be sources of funding. Nothing, after all, is truly free.

Last Updated: 5:27 pm | Tuesday, June 10, 2008

Cities testify: Streetcars work

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080610/NEWS01/306100123

BY MARGARET A. MCGURK | [email protected]

 

UNIVERSITY HEIGHTS – Experts from Charlotte, Little Rock, Seattle and Portland told an audience of 150 at the University of Cincinnati Tuesday how their cities managed to get streetcars up and running, as Cincinnati aims to do.

 

Cincinnati City Manager Milton Dohoney said the session was meant to educate planners and city residents, and to offer material for his campaign to raise $30 million in corporate and other private sector contributions for the $182 million plan.

Here Are The Results of SurveyUSA News Poll #13988

 

Geography Surveyed: City of Cincinnati

Data Collected: 06/10/2008

Release Date: 06/10/2008 14:45 ET

Sponsor: WCPO-TV Cincinnati

 

 

 

1  Asked of 500 Adults

  Margin of Sampling Error for this question = ± 4.5% 

 

Would you support? Or oppose? A plan to build a streetcar system that would run from downtown Cincinnati through Over-the-Rhine? 

 

47% Support

44% Oppose

8% Not Sure

 

2  Asked of 500 Adults

  Margin of Sampling Error for this question = ± 4.5% 

 

If the streetcar system is built, would you be more likely to visit downtown and Over-the Rhine? Less likely? Or would it not make a difference? 

 

36% More Likely

23% Less Likely

41% No Difference

1% Not Sure

 

Those 23% who answered less likely are gaming the question. That is probably a good sense of the bitter-enders on this issue. The 21% who oppose it but probably fall into the no difference crowd aren't going to put up a stink.

Those 23% who answered less likely are gaming the question. That is probably a good sense of the bitter-enders on this issue. The 21% who oppose it but probably fall into the no difference crowd aren't going to put up a stink.

 

Yep.  Why on Earth would anyone not go downtown or to OTR because of a streetcar.  I understand someone not supporting it but not going somewhere b/c of it doesn't make any sense.

You know I was thinking about going to a Reds game, but well if there is a streetcar somewhere near me, I guess I will just listen to it on the radio.

 

23% of respondents share this belief.

Think about this 47% support this language

 

"Would you support? Or oppose? A plan to build a streetcar system that would run from downtown Cincinnati through Over-the-Rhine?"

 

how many do you think would support this language:

 

"Would you support? Or oppose? A plan to build a streetcar system that would run from downtown Cincinnati to Univeristy of Cincinnati

I've never heard this question raised before, but what's the possibility of restoring existing streetcar rails to functionality?

That's what they did in Dallas when they first got the McKinney Avenue line back up and running. Check it out.....

 

http://www.mata.org/

I'm guessing they were buried under asphalt like we have?

Might as well start completely over!  New, state of the art, and ready to go another 30+ years.

Well, what's so different about old rails?  They use old freight rails for new rail projects already.  I guess it would depend on cost.  I'm just wondering if that's even been proposed here in Cincinnati.

On google street view, there are images of sections of streetcar rail under construction in Portland.  Hopefully this link works:

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=portland+or&layer=c&ie=UTF8&ll=45.5195,-122.676929&spn=0.001635,0.004367&t=k&z=18&cbll=45.51943,-122.67717&panoid=1V7CxzWHzI07ZpsGbX3DFQ

 

If this link doesn't work, just look at Portland's map and you will see downtown streets that are not covered.  This is because several blocks were closed for this construction.

 

Edit:

The link doesn't work.  Just shuffle to the left over to the intersection of Market and 5th for a good view of the construction.  Anyone interested should be able to do a screen shot and use these images for promo purposes. 

 

 

Well, what's so different about old rails? They use old freight rails for new rail projects already. I guess it would depend on cost. I'm just wondering if that's even been proposed here in Cincinnati.

 

There are a variety of reasons --

1. There are often layers of asphalt on top of existing streetcar lines. Over time, sidewalks could have been raised to counteract the layers of asphalt, new curbs could have been installed, and new drainage tiles could have been placed as a result. Digging up the old rail could leave a large gap between the base layer and the sidewalk, and would need reconstruction.

2. The old rail may have been damaged from all of the asphalt overlays and compactors.

Most of the old streetcar tracks are broad gauge, 5'2".  Look at the visible tracks in front of Music Hall and it's obvious that they're broad gauge.  The Skoda vehicles are manufactured to standard gauge, although widening the gauge is usually simply a matter of putting a longer axle on.  There were many historical examples of entire railroads (hundreds of miles including passing sidings and yards) changing gauges in one day, usually a Sunday.  They'd have hundreds of men assigned to a 5-10 mile section of track and gangs would pull up the spikes on one rail and slide it over.  Meanwhile in the shops the axles for all the rolling stock would be chopped down or replaced with wider ones. 

 

Obviously track that's embedded in cobbles or concrete is harder to move.  The streetcars chose odd gauges in Cincinnati specifically to discourage interurbans from entering into trackage rights agreements or buying out streetcar lines entirely.  The subway was intended primarily as a way for the interurbans to enter into the downtown basin, bypassing the silly streetcar situation, but was foiled partly because the interubans were themselves operating on a variety of gauges and would have to spend a lot of money to become compatable not only with the subway's standard gauge but with its electrical standard.       

 

 

Biggest problem is, the old rails are in the center of the street. To conform with ADA and provide level boarding into the cars, you almost have to install them nearer the curbs.

 

Plus, they're bolted rails -- not seamless, welded rails -- so you'd get the clicketty-clack sound when the streetcar passes over the section-ends.

 

And finally, old streetcar rails and the base beneath them might not support the weight of modern streetcars.

i'm 95% sure I saw them removing some rail from vine st just north of central during the road work they are doing right now.

Another issue with the polling,  could you imagine a question that would be more affected by the massive undersampling of cell phone only households? 

 

I would imagine about 50% of the posters on this board don't have landlines

 

  I know you're kidding, but unlike the streetcar, I-75 has a source of funding.

 

I would also like to see a comparison on the Tacoma line.

 

True, but the only reason that one has a source of funding and the other does not is because I-75 already exists.  It doesn't necessarily reflect the merit of either project.  I'm not trying to rag on expressways here, just pointing out that they are never asked to pay for themselves the way that rail projects are.  I'm sure that the currently operating streetcars in Portland and Charlotte have a source of funding identified, as will ours, we're just not at that stage yet.

Think about this 47% support this language

 

"Would you support? Or oppose? A plan to build a streetcar system that would run from downtown Cincinnati through Over-the-Rhine?"

 

how many do you think would support this language:

 

"Would you support? Or oppose? A plan to build a streetcar system that would run from downtown Cincinnati to University of Cincinnati

 

There is obviously a direct link between the way the question was asked and the way it was answered.  Obviously, a lot of people, right or wrong, have a horrible opinion of OTR.  If the question had included connecting the university to downtown, the response would have been overwhelmingly pro streetcar.  This is just another example of the local media at work.  Imagine if they had asked about the highways.  "Would you support or oppose, a massive highway from downtown through Elmwood Place?"  Imagine how that answer would differ  from "downtown through to West Chester" or somewhere suburbanites care about.

Biggest problem is, the old rails are in the center of the street. To conform with ADA and provide level boarding into the cars, you almost have to install them nearer the curbs.

 

Plus, they're bolted rails -- not seamless, welded rails -- so you'd get the clicketty-clack sound when the streetcar passes over the section-ends.

 

And finally, old streetcar rails and the base beneath them might not support the weight of modern streetcars.

 

Thanks for the feedback.  Now I'm wondering if it would be cheaper to recycle the old rails, and melt them down to create what's appropriate for the new streetcar.  Then again, you said that the new cars might be too heavy for the old rails, so maybe the quality or alloy would be substandard at this point.

Now I'm wondering if it would be cheaper to recycle the old rails, and melt them down to create what's appropriate for the new streetcar.

 

I doubt that it would be feasible, especially when you consider that most of the track is buried at this point.  You'd have to dig deep into the streets to get at the old rails, which would be a huge pain in the rear for the whole city, since you'd have to close streets a second time to put in the new track.  Better to just leave those old rails where they are.

 

What I'm more interested in is what happens to the old rail in front of Music Hall.  Isn't the streetcar line supposed to run right through there or do I have my streets confused?  IF it does, I'd like some assurance that the construction will try to integrate the new rail in with the brick street in such a way that it isn't obviously a new addition.

Well, unless the old rails they're pulling up are going to the scrap yards (or the dump), I'm wondering what they're doing with all of them.

 

Call it wishful thinking on my part.

^Oh, I see.  You mean the rails that we just happen to run into during other construction.  I thought you meant that since we couldn't use the old rails that are buried along the route, we should recycle them, which would require a project of its own just to get them.  Got it.  So what do we do with the rails that we're currently finding?  Yeah, I must admit I don't know much about that.

Most of the old streetcar tracks are broad gauge, 5'2". Look at the visible tracks in front of Music Hall and it's obvious that they're broad gauge.

 

This must be why my 1986 Chevy Nova could ride the rails on P Street in Georgetown but couldn't on Elm.

^That is funny!

Check out WLWT (Channel 5) at 6pm for a streetcar story