A streetcar named Bearcat...with links

 

 

http://www.uc.edu/news/NR.asp?id=8690

^Validation baby!

Will the streetcar have an finish point where everybody has to get off, like govt sq  buses do? Or could one ride all day?

The UC center also closely examined criticisms of mass transit, specifically from the Cato Institute as applied to Portland, Oregon. They found that most of the criticisms don’t apply to Cincinnati streetcar proposals. That’s because the focus of the Cato Institute critique of Portland were more broadly based objections to the political process and a regional transit system – not related to any dispute of ridership and development results related to streetcars.

 

Why doesn't the Cato Institue have an issue with streets and highways? Same arguement would apply.

OH Yeah, I forgot, they're just noisemakers.

Will the streetcar have an finish point where everybody has to get off, like govt sq  buses do? Or could one ride all day?

 

An alley next to your place. ;-)

Two things:

 

On riding the streetcar, you'll probably purchase a time-stamped ticket that's good for two hours of riding. You could get on and off multiple times during that period.

 

And on the Cato Institute, its chairman, William Niskanen, is the former chief economist of the Ford Motor Company.

With the lunacy and ineptness committed for the last 30 years in Detroit, managing the downward spiral of Ford doesn't impress me any.

^

will there be an option to buy a yearly pass or something to that effect

from wvxu

 

U-C report finds Cincinnati streetcar study on track

By Jay Hanselman

8/27/2008 3:57:49 PM

 

A new University of Cincinnati report finds a previous study on building streetcars in Cincinnati is on track. Researchers reviewed a report provided to the city from HDR, Inc. It found a streetcar system circulating around Downtown and running to the Uptown area near UC would have a huge economic impact for the city. George Vredeveld (vred-uh-veld) is the Director of UC’s Economics Center for Education and Research. He says the HDR report took the right approach. Vredeveld says the study and information from other cities shows Cincinnati’s streetcar plan makes economic sense. City administrators are working now on funding such a system and attracting private money to help pay for it. The initial streetcar system would have a circulator running from the riverfront to over the rhine. There would also be a connecting line to the uptown area near UC.

 

No kidding, I analyzed the numbers game for Ridership numbers for a Demand Forecasting Class, and I came to a similar conclusion, at least about projected ridership.

Will the timestamp be flexible for events like the Bengals and Reds games, that way people don't have to purchase one for before the game and one for after?

^ I kinda doubt it. Even if the fare is $2.00, and you have to pay twice, that's about one-third to one-fifth the cost of game-day parking near GABP and PBS.

 

My guess is, you'll want to buy a monthly or annual pass.

From Railway Age magazine......

 

http://www.railwayage.com/breaking_news.shtml#Feature6-8-28

 

August 27, 2008

University review affirms Cincinnati streetcar study findings

 

A six-page "Assessment of the Cincinnati Streetcar Study" released Wednesday by the University of Cincinnati's Center for the City program finds that the proposed four-mile starter line "may be considered successful if it is used extensively; encourages economic development; or contributes to urban vitality."

 

"It is our judgment that the HDR study is credible in its analysis of the costs and benefits of streetcars in Cincinnati and in its projections of the benefits of ridership and economic development," the assessment states.

 

The University was asked to conduct the assessment by the city, who responded to skeptics of the proposed $102 million, four-mile line, including Randal O'Toole of the Cato Institute, who charged the streetcar study, released by Omaha, Neb.-based HDR in 2007, was flawed.

 

In a press release accompanying the assessment, George Vredeveld, director of the Economics Center for Education & Research at UC and one of the assessment's authors, said UC "applied the smell test to the HDR study," by comparing the process and methodology of other studies to HDR's work. The UC center also compared the ridership estimates in the HDR study to actual rail ridership for the Memphis vintage trolley and Portland, Ore., streetcar system.

 

"We found that HDR was in the ballpark," Vredeveld stated, in its evaluation of both ridership and economic-development payoffs in the form of increased property values, business development, employment, and tax revenues along and close to the proposed Cincinnati streetcar line.

Bengals games, probably, but Reds games cost $10 to park right next to the stadium (might change with The Banks).  So if it cost $4 to ride the streetcar and you have to pay around $4 - $5 to park a mile away, I doubt many would do that...not that the streetcar should cater to the Reds but it would be nice if there were promotions/better deals for special events.  It'd also be nice to subsidize the cost for people who live/work downtwon, but that's not likely to happen either.

 

Edit - has there been numbers thrown around for monthly/yearly passes?

^ None yet. My feeling is, because regular users are most likely to be the residents and office workers who, in the aggregate, are the drivers of all the development adjacent to the line -- passes should be heavily disconted.

 

I'm thinking $30 per month or $300 per year. Needs a serious economic pricing study.

I'd buy a monthly or annual pass in a heartbeat.

>So if it cost $4 to ride the streetcar and you have to pay around $4 - $5 to park a mile away

 

No, actually there are hundreds of free parking spaces that go unused.  If anyone remembers when 3rd St. was eastbound, there were hundreds of on-street parking spots on the south side of the street.  If you drove downtown to an evening Reds game, those spots were free.  Almost every time I went down there cars would be lined up to enter 3rd St. garages while dozens of 3rd St. spots went unfilled.  Sometimes I'd be late to the game and still get a free spot just 2-3 blocks from the stadium.  This phenomenon was a big wake-up to me personally about the psychology of parking.  But it goes both ways -- there is just as much of an odd psychology to rail transit which gives it an advantage over buses, but it's tough to put a finger on and tough to sell to skeptics. 

A sponsor needs to step up on say the Reds Hot Weekends so everyone with a gameday ticket rides the streetcar free that day.

Same for Bengals games, Riverfest, Taste, Ocktober fest, etc.

Not sure about the math on this article or the attention to detial, but hey the enquirer got scooped by the local bloggers, the Business Courier and the Columbus Dispatch

 

City chief: $185M for streetcars OK

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20080829/BIZ01/808290394/

JMeck, are those parking spaces still there?  There have been times on week nights where I've driven around for quite a while looking for a free spot.  I think the improved downtown has made it hard to find those.  Either way, I think the vast majority of Reds goers look for parking lots.

 

If I lived downtown/OTR, I'd definitely buy a annual pass for $300 but as someone who lives outside of downtown and works downtown, I might be less inclined.  Just my opinion.

A sponsor needs to step up on say the Reds Hot Weekends so everyone with a gameday ticket rides the streetcar free that day.

 

Same for Bengals games, Riverfest, Taste, Ocktober fest, etc.

 

I tend to think that this is what will happen for those events/games.

He's a former Councilman who didn't have that strong of a record, so why do we care?  Also he mentions lower capital costs...well this is a case where you get what you pay for.

 

Former Councilman Charles Winburn calls for buses over streetcars

Streetcar advocate: Plan hurts economic development

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2008/09/01/story7.html

 

Former Cincinnati Councilman Charles Winburn is floating a $14.2 million alternative to Cincinnati’s streetcar proposal that involves the use of bus trolleys to provide free rides through downtown, Over-the-Rhine and the Uptown neighborhoods surrounding the University of Cincinnati.

 

The proposal describes a system that requires a $9 million capital investment and $2.6 million a year to operate. Winburn estimates the trolley would attract 5,000 riders a day and could be launched by December.

If Mallory takes a state job in Columbus and doesn't run again then it is "BORTZ for MAYOR"!

“Our numbers are actually vetted by experts,” said Bortz. “He’s got a document that he and his buddies put together by pulling crap off the Internet.”

 

That is the quote of the year.

If Mallory takes a state job in Columbus and doesn't run again then it is "BORTZ for MAYOR"!

 

I know! When he started running for council, I was thinking this. His family has millions invested in RE in the city, why wouldn't he want the best for Cincinnati and its urban core?

 

 

 

I'm not sure why folks listen to the Right Reverend Windbag. . . He was the epitome of the bad councils of the 90s.

Yes, a bus system!

Ingenious!

Why hasn't anyone in Cincinnati thought of that!

OH Wait, don't we have a bus system?

>JMeck, are those parking spaces still there?  There have been times on week nights where I've driven around for quite a while looking for a free spot.  I think the improved downtown has made it hard to find those.  Either way, I think the vast majority of Reds goers look for parking lots.

 

There is still on-street parking on 3rd St., probably similar to the same amount or a little less.  I can't remember the last time I didn't get a free on-street spot downtown at night.  Probably the difference for me is I don't hesitate to walk a few blocks.  The walk from Court St.'s many spots to the center of downtown takes maybe 6-7 minutes but that might as well be 10 miles and a different time zone for a lot of people. 

i supportz bortz

If Mallory takes a state job in Columbus and doesn't run again then it is "BORTZ for MAYOR"!

 

For sure!!

Winburn has an idea whose time has come!

 

And gone.

 

It's not like the idea hasn't been tried before. Anybody remember The Downtowner? Or, what about the Southbank Shuttle? Do you see a lot of development along its route in Cincinnati?

 

 

The Southbank Shuttle still runs.  I had a random conversation with a lady on the Serpentine Wall whose grandkids were in town from the country and she took them on the Southbank Shuttle because they had never been on a bus before and for some reason really wanted to ride one.  I don't think the Southbank Shuttle really counts as riding "the bus", but there's no way those kids wouldn't have wanted to ride a modern streetcar over the shuttle bus.  Them and thousands more like them. 

Streetcar to be exhibited at N.Ky. museum

Herald-Dispatch, August 29, 2008

 

A museum in Covington is now showing a streetcar named Kentucky.

 

Workers used tow trucks, a forklift, jacks, crowbars and a lot of care on Thursday to put the historic trolley on its undercarriage and squeeze it into its exhibit space at the Behringer-Crawford Museum.

 

The former Green Line trolley was built in 1892 by the Brownell firm of St. Louis as an ordinary streetcar. In 1911, it was remodeled into a parlor car that hosted parties and private gatherings. Car 64 has “Kentucky” painted on its sides and was among the last to operate in northern Kentucky.

 

Museum director Laurie Risch told The Kentucky Enquirer that the trolley is in its original operating condition and is “a magnificent piece of history.”

 

The streetcar has been on exhibit since December without its carriage.

Reds Hot Weekends

 

It's so corny, it forces me to love it!

 

 

Or, what about the Southbank Shuttle? Do you see a lot of development along its route in Cincinnati?

 

Hey now, I live and die by the Southbank Shuttle!  Don't get me wrong, I'd MUCH rather have an NKY streetcar line that links up Cincinnati, Covington, and Newport, but for right now the Southbank Shuttle is the best we've got, at least on my side of the river.  And you're correct, there's no development that can be attributed to the Southbank Shuttle, which is just another reason Cincy needs to move forward with their streetcar plan.  God, I hope NKY doesn't miss the boat on this.

^ That's my point. With shuttle buses you'll get something of a transportation benefit, but that's about it. No one is going to build a new apartment or office building with less parking because they are counting on a shuttle being there forever. Remember: no electric rail system that has opened since the end of WWII has ever gone out of business. How many bus shuttle routes have come and gone since then?

I was walking down Twelfth Street near Vine the other day with a planner who is very knowledgeable about the plans for the Cincinnati Streetcar and rail transit in general.

 

Because of the way Twelfth Street is redeveloping -- close-grained, intimate, with mixed-uses -- he thinks that both directions of streetcar travel should be on Twelfth instead of splitting them up between Twelfth and Central Parkway.

 

I thought it was an interesting perspective, and I'm just putting it out there.

John I agree and have thought for awhile that 12th could turn into one of the city's great streets, especially with development of the Noel's Plumbing property and the lot at 12th & Vine.  I have always been intrigued by how east/west travel, with the exception of Liberty St., as opposed to north/south travel through OTR gives so much more a feeling of being "immersed" in the neighborhood.  This is because downtown is not visible and there is less commercial activity on the east/west streets, although there are a fair number of storefronts on 12th.     

I also agree... and thought that there was supposed to be no truck or streetcar travel on any parkways.... 2-way traffic on 12th would be great for that street and would create a very cool atmosphere there.

http://cincinnati-oh.gov/city/downloads/city_pdf33839.pdf

^Very informative and useful information.  This is an easy/quick way to inform people.  I just sent an email out to about a dozen people who have had questions regarding the proposed streetcar system.  This new presentation answers literally every question that has come up and does it very clearly.  Be sure to pass this along to anyone who may still have questions.

SoapBlog 1 - Connecting the Dots

Posted By: Chris Bortz, 9/2/2008

http://www.soapboxmedia.com/blogs/posts/29Bortz1.aspx

 

Probably no surprise to anyone who pays attention to City Hall, but I think we should build a streetcar system in Cincinnati.  I began by approaching the concept with a high degree of skepticism but now have crossed over to full-throated advocate.  Not because I’m under some kind of hypnosis, but because the vision, the facts, and the numbers all add up.

 

So much is happening in Cincinnati - but it’s precarious, this new renaissance.  It is still fragile in its infancy.

 

I’ve heard many reasonable, as well as some not so reasonable, criticisms of the plan.  Included among the reasonable are:

Where did this come from?

Why is this “suddenly” a city priority?

Can we afford it?

Will anyone ride it?

 

To answer some of these questions, let me begin with “where did this come from?” First, the proposal isn’t new.  Discussions for building a streetcar have been around in one form or another all the way back to when the original street cars were first dismantled in the ‘50s – a deliberate move orchestrated throughout the country by the (once) Big Three auto makers so as to encourage investment in roads (see GM Charlie Wilson’s post WWII memos).

 

Talk of connecting Uptown and Downtown with passenger rail has been on the table for decades.  The Metro Moves plan introduced almost eight years ago included a streetcar component, but the billion-dollar price tag for the commuter light rail and a well-intentioned, but woefully inadequate campaign turned uninformed voters off back when oil was about $23 a barrel.

 

As to why this is now a city priority, our priorities have moved forward because we have actually accomplished much of what had been on our community agenda for years.  The stadiums are built, The Banks is underway, investment in OTR is ongoing under 3CDC’s leadership, Fountain Square has been remade and Findlay Market has never looked better.

 

One thing hasn’t changed. Community leadership (city, county, business, institutional) still agree that the key to Cincinnati’s regional prosperity is a healthy and vibrant urban center.  Our two major job generators, Uptown and Downtown, are the lifeblood of our economy.

 

What about the numbers including costs to construct, operating expenses, ridership projections, and the expected return to the community?  Well, those numbers were not pulled out of a hat.  Transportation experts and economists reached them after extensive research and analysis and review of the success of other forward thinking cities.  Then they were independently verified.  Don’t agree?  O.K., then challenge assumptions and conclusions specifically.  But don’t just tell me it doesn’t feel right.  Our community is embracing data driven decision-making.  We have the data.  Now is the time to make a decision.

 

Is there a funding gap?  You bet.  No other city in the country has been able to build a streetcar system without a dedicated tax.  “You can’t do that here.  Taxes are too high,” they say.  O.K. Then let’s put our heads together and figure out how to fill the gap.

 

Are there other priorities in Cincinnati?  Of course.  Our schools need to be better.  Health and poverty issues need constant attention and significant investment.  Crime must be fought aggressively.  But we are working on all of those things, and we are beginning to see results.  No one is suggesting that our streetcar plan should or would reduce funding for those ongoing priorities.  We are a big enough city that we can walk and chew gum at the same time.  Building and maintaining infrastructure is what governments do; no one else will.

 

Why build it?  You’ve heard the arguments.  We need more money to keep the pressure on crime, close the health gap, improve workforce development, and combat blight. We need more residents and more jobs. A streetcar, according to the experts, will help create those jobs and attract those residents and generate those new dollars as well as position our city in a competitive, global economy, create walkable neighborhoods, attract young professionals, stimulate residential development, energize retail, reduce parking pressures and  alleviate traffic congestion. But my favorite reason to do this?  To tie together all the investments we have already made or are making.  We can physically connect them. 

 

Time to connect the dots.

Because of the way Twelfth Street is redeveloping -- close-grained, intimate, with mixed-uses -- he thinks that both directions of streetcar travel should be on Twelfth instead of splitting them up between Twelfth and Central Parkway.

 

I think that make A LOT of sense.  Using 13th Street for one of the legs would be even better to get a connection further up Main Street, but this is a problem because 13th stops at Washington Park, and you need to get over to Elm.

 

...that is unless you change the one way direction of 13th, or cut through the park, which could be cool.

12th st has my seal of approval.  I wouldn't need to walk as far to catch the (walnut) southbound car.

I still think that having both east west routes on Central Parkway would be best, with the streetcar being in the middle of the road dispersing folks on a well designed central median.  It seems a bit short-sighted to build it one block north of a potential transfer connection to an already existing rapid transit tunnel.

Study: One of three options for subway tunnels, light rail, feasible

http://www.building-cincinnati.com/2008/09/study-one-of-three-options-for-subway.html

 

A new Ohio-Kentucky-Indiana Regional Council of Governments (OKI) study looking at the future use of the City's subway tunnels was presented to the OKI Intermodal Coodinating Committee on September 9.

 

The Cincinnati Subway Conversion Study, conducted by URS Corporation, looks at three possible options: maintaining the tunnels, filling them, or improving them for light rail transit.

 

Focusing on the largest segment of tunnels that exist - from Walnut Street to the portals located north of the Western Hills Viaduct and including the underground stations at Race Street, Liberty Street, and Brighton - the study asks five basic questions:

 

• What is the physical condition of the tunnels?
  
• What repairs are recommended to preserve the tunnels?
  
• Is it feasible to operate light rail transit within the tunnels, and to use the existing station areas?
  
• If it is feasible to operate light rail, what modifications will have to be made to the tunnels and what would be the cost?
  
• What is the current value of the tunnels for consideration of a potential local funding match?
  

 

Water and the damage done

A 2006 inspection showed that the overall condition of the tunnels is fair to good, but ten locations show signs of advanced deterioration, mostly caused by water leakage at construction joints.

 

The deterioration is most severe in the segment from Linn Street to the Brighton station.

 

The Race Street and Liberty Street stations were found to be in generally good condition, and the Brighton station was in fair condition with deterioration to the roof slab and beams.

 

Immediate maintenance recommendations are estimated at $3 million and would include:

 

• Replacement of vent grates south of Liberty Street
  
• Repair of the vent openings north of the Brighton station
  
• Repair of floor drains
  
• Repair sewage leaks
  
• Replace tunnel joints at ten locations
  
• Yearly inspections
  

 

One future option, filling the tunnels with controlled density fill, would cost an estimated $20 million.

 

Another $15 million would be required to relocate the existing water main and communication lines within the tunnels before filling could begin.

 

Light rail option?

The study finds that, with a few modifications, light rail transit in the tunnels is feasible and would cost $115 million.

 

Of that $115 million, $85 million would be dedicated to hard construction costs, $15 million to soft costs, and $15 million for water main and communications line relocation.

 

New platforms and headhouses would be required for all three stations, as well as new construction for ticketing and other related transit functions.

 

Utilizing original construction contracts and maintenance recommendations, the study found that the current net value of the tunnels is between $30 million and $40 million.

 

In proceeding with the protection of this City asset, the study recommends:

 

• Maintaining the tunnels in the near-term and develop a funding strategy any long-term decision
  
• Planning for the relocation of the water main and communication lines
  
• Continuing documentation for a potential local funding match
  
• Studying future light rail transit impacts to the CBD street grid and the feasibility of extending the tunnel system along the I-71 corridor and down Walnut Street, past the Riverfront Transit Center, and into Covington
  
• Studying the possibility of running light rail along Central Parkway
  

Holy crap, that's awesome news!

Studying future light rail transit impacts to the CBD street grid and the feasibility of extending the tunnel system along the I-71 corridor and down Walnut Street, past the Riverfront Transit Center, and into Covington.

 

Now THAT'S interesting...

Photos of streetcars from all over the world

 

http://www.shugotram.jp/twrldmap/twrldmae.html

^

Is there any chance that they will make a decision on the tunnel anytime in the near future?

that would be awesome to use the tunnels, it would have such an old feel to it but would be used for the first time...