I do think we need to remember that a street car route is typically not designed to take people to the front steps every every building in the area.  It should hit major points and allow people to WALK! (GOD forbid) to the streetcar stops. 

I do think we need to remember that a street car route is typically not designed to take people to the front steps every every building in the area. It should hit major points and allow people to WALK! (GOD forbid) to the streetcar stops.

 

unfortunately the majority of people are lazy

Here's another view: a streetcar is a circulator. Its route could literally be a circle. It's not intended to be the shortest distance between the end points of the line. Like, say, a route straight up Vine or Clifton.

 

The other thing is, I think Uptown residents value circulation within Uptown as much they do a direct connection to Downtown, which they have already via many and frequent bus routes. The Ludlow to Peebles corner to downtown route does what no other bus route does -- cross Uptown on the diagonal and connect all four of the major Uptown business districts.

 

Oh, and it will cause plenty of walking.

 

So, my question is, if the Gilbert route is no longer in terms of travel time -- it's ten minutes both directions between Fountain Square and University Plaza compared with thirteen and ten minutes uphill and downhill on Vine Street respectively -- why wouldn't you prefer a route that touches more destinations? To me, it's the best of both worlds.

 

By the way, the reason Vine Street takes longer uphill is because the streetcar has to go north to McMicken and then reverse direction and go south on Race before finding a street it can get through to Vine Street -- probably Green Street, a block south of Findlay Market. People won't like reversing their direction of travel. Plus, it has to negotiate two complicated intersections north of Green and Vine.

 

Someone said it earlier, the vacant land is east of the university. You're not going to add much value unless you serve that market.

Jmeck, or anyone who knows, for that matter- what is the possibility of bring it up the hill directly from the Elm/Race axis to Clifton Rd, taking out that little aparment complex at the 90 degree bend?

Central Parkway through Broadway Commons to Gilbert to Taft/Calhoun to Clifton to to Ludlow.

 

I like this routing because it opens up the streetcar system to potential expansions and connection points to many more neighborhoods...neighborhoods that could use/want this system - Walnut Hills, East Walnut Hills, Mt. Adams, Oakley, Hyde Park, Mt. Lookout, Corryville, & Clifton Heights would all be included.

 

Here is what I have drawn up (not all my own ideas). Ignore the phasing notations, but do note the details tied to each line.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=108249158406108038803.00045978c52b85c1fbcd8&ll=39.11954,-84.505978&spn=0.097887,0.240326&z=13

meck, or anyone who knows, for that matter- what is the possibility of bring it up the hill directly from the Elm/Race axis to Clifton Rd, taking out that little aparment complex at the 90 degree bend?

 

This was already discussed on this thread, back in Jan 2007, around page 14.  This graphic compared routings through the 5-points intersection versus a switchback:

^--- Either of those two routes are too steep. In fact, right between those two routes was the Bellevue Incline.

 

    Also, a major landslide occured there in the 1970's.

I  still vote for it to go east on Mcmicken to Liberty then up Liberty Hill.

Central Parkway through Broadway Commons to Gilbert to Taft/Calhoun to Clifton to to Ludlow.

 

I like this routing because it opens up the streetcar system to potential expansions and connection points to many more neighborhoods...neighborhoods that could use/want this system - Walnut Hills, East Walnut Hills, Mt. Adams, Oakley, Hyde Park, Mt. Lookout, Corryville, & Clifton Heights would all be included.

 

Here is what I have drawn up (not all my own ideas).  Ignore the phasing notations, but do note the details tied to each line.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=108249158406108038803.00045978c52b85c1fbcd8&ll=39.11954,-84.505978&spn=0.097887,0.240326&z=13

 

I like the KY route, but it seems like you could serve more area with less route miles and travel time if you simply took the street car over Dixie Highway (Clay Wade Bailey bridge) to 2nd Street in Cincy and have the car run a complete circle in only one direction instead of doubling back on itself at Mainstrasse.  This would have the additional benefit of having stops for Paul Brown Stadium and The Banks.

You know, the thing that's really striking about Randy's map is that the base map still shows the old CSX line - I think that's what it was -- through western Hamilton County. Nice if it were still there today.

 

Central Parkway would seem to be the path for west side light rail now. I'm guessing that LRT wants to be on Glenway eventually.

While there are a couple sentences in the managers budget remarks there is no provisions for funding the projet  in the capital budget or at least discussion of the project in the 6 year capital improvement plan even if unfunded at this point  for the largest City capital project during that span assuming it gets built.  Under normal circumstances it seems to me there would be more documentation in the capital budget for the most ambitious project.

 

 

I read in the RFQ that responses to the vendors questions would be answered today.  Did anything get posted publicly.  I would think that may be interesting reading.

 

As of today 40 firms have downloaded the RFQ

Per thomasbw's request, here is

 

up W. clifton

mcmillan/calhoun cuplet to Vine

jefferson/vine cuplet to Nixon (I think that is the name there)

Down Nixon to Ludlow business district

 

 

This is an interesting compromise where east and west of campus are treated somewhat more fairly with the least track.  Politically it could be the most viable.  I took the liberty of routing it behind the 2 sisters and EPA to avoid the terrible 5-way MLK/Jefferson/Vine intersection.  Also, I don't like the idea of dividing the streetcar tracks between Jefferson and Short Vine because they are completely different kinds of streets unlike McMillan/Calhoun.  Now if they were to make Vine one-way northbound and reconnect it with Vine and Auburn, then make Jefferson southbound-only, selling the western half of Jefferson to UC for new construction meeting the street, that would be a different situation.     

 

Some other ideas...

Turn both Calhoun and McMillan 2-way and make Calhoun the "streetcar" street even though traffic would be mixed, making McMillan the "through" street.  Both directions of streetcar tracks would travel on Calhoun.  It would reduce trouble when reaching the Vine/WH Taft area but trouble is inevitable there without grade separation.  This idea places both directions of track on the east side of Clifton all the way to Ludlow.

 

And an underpass under MLK:

 

 

 

 

You know, the thing that's really striking about Randy's map is that the base map still shows the old CSX line - I think that's what it was -- through western Hamilton County. Nice if it were still there today.

 

Central Parkway would seem to be the path for west side light rail now. I'm guessing that LRT wants to be on Glenway eventually.

Don't forget the westside when thinking longterm.  I think a map like Randy's is bad politics because the westside is completely ignored.

Answers to Contractor's questions about the RFQ were posted today, some interesting clarifications:

 

Response to Questions 

 

1. Are you requesting the team to provide financing for the complete project?

 

Answer: The City is requesting interested firms to identify what financing, if any, that they can bring

to the project, the nature of the financing, and terms and conditions of the financing arrangements. 

 

2. If the Team finances the project, how do we get reimbursed and what would be the duration of

reimbursement?

 

Answer: The City anticipates the contract to have a long term. If reimbursements are required, they

would likely be made over the term of the contract and would subject to negotiation with the preferred

firm/team.

 

3. With the complexity of putting together teams for a Finance, Design, Build, Operate, and Maintain

project, would you consider extending the RFQ due date?

 

Answer: No. 

 

4. Are HDR or PB excluded from participating with any of the Teams since they are the Authorities

Consultants? 

 

Answer: HDR and/or PB are not excluded from participation. 

 

5. What is the City’s procurement process? Is it a one-step quality-based selection or is there a second-

step proposal phase?

 

Answer: The City will review submittals and may invite selected firms/teams for follow-up interviews. The

City will rank and select a preferred firm/team and negotiate terms and conditions for a long-term

contract for the project. If an agreement cannot be reached with the initially-selected firm/team, the City

may elect to negotiate with a second firm/team. The City reserves the right to negotiate simultaneously

with more than one preferred firm/team. 

 

6. Is the selected firm disqualified from performing an Alternatives Analysis (in accordance with FTA

procedures) for the Phase 2 Uptown Circulator?

 

Answer: No.

 

7. Will the contract include or be subsequently amended to include design and construction of Phase 2

Uptown Circulator?

 

Answer: The current project includes the Downtown/Over the Rhine loop and a connector into Uptown.

The contract may include design, construction, operation, and maintenance of an Uptown Circulator

(Phase 2) if it is determined to be advantageous by the City.

 

8. Will a formal environmental document be required if Federal funds are not utilized?

 

Answer: No. However, the City may complete an environmental document outside of this project to

ensure the project’s compliance with Federal requirements in the event there is future Federal

participation in the project. It is anticipated that this work will be performed with the cooperation of the

selected firm/team. 

 

9. What is the City’s SBE/DBE percentage goal for design, construction and operation and

maintenance?

 

Answer: SBE goals have not been determined at this time. 

 

10. Will SORTA have a formal role in project development or long-term operations and maintenance?

 

Answer: SORTA does not have a formal role in the project. 

 

11. Are qualification statements to be submitted for SBE subcontractors and consultants?

 

Answer: Qualification statements for all anticipated members of the firm/team should be submitted for

consideration within the RFQ’s identified page limitations.

 

12. As the RFQ does not include drawings or specifications or a bid submittal requirement are

subcontractor forms (2003, 2007, 2007-a) to be fully executed and submitted at this time?

 

Answer: No.

 

13. The RFQ’s page limitation doesn’t allow for the submittal of a Conceptual Operating Plan. Is an

outline or Table of Contents acceptable?

 

Answer: An outline is acceptable; however, short-listed firms/teams should be prepared to present and

discuss an operating plan during their interview.

 

14. Please advise what is meant by a firm-led Operations- Design- Build team.

 

Answer: The City is soliciting a qualified firm, team, or organization to lead the development,

implementation, operation, and maintenance of the project. The City will not lead these activities.

 

15. Is the solicitation for a consultant to develop the streetcar master plan or a contractor to design,

build, operate, and maintain the streetcar system?

 

Answer: The solicitation is for a contractor to design, build, operate, and maintain the streetcar system.

You know, the thing that's really striking about Randy's map is that the base map still shows the old CSX line - I think that's what it was -- through western Hamilton County. Nice if it were still there today.

 

Central Parkway would seem to be the path for west side light rail now. I'm guessing that LRT wants to be on Glenway eventually.

Don't forget the westside when thinking longterm.  I think a map like Randy's is bad politics because the westside is completely ignored.

 

If that's all that ever got built then I agree with you. But the facts are that the central city and eastern first gen 'burbs are simply more progressive and, imho, would be more willing to support such a venture.

 

Westsiders tend to look at me like I have 3 heads when I talk about the streetcars or downtown development. Just the nature of the beast. That said, if this is to become a true city transporation system the westside will have to be included. Certainely a spur through the west-end would be appropriate. As would a connector to Price Hill. Bring back the incline!

You know, the thing that's really striking about Randy's map is that the base map still shows the old CSX line - I think that's what it was -- through western Hamilton County. Nice if it were still there today.

 

Central Parkway would seem to be the path for west side light rail now. I'm guessing that LRT wants to be on Glenway eventually.

Don't forget the westside when thinking longterm.  I think a map like Randy's is bad politics because the westside is completely ignored.

 

My map only includes certain routes.  It is no where near what I would ultimately envision for Cincinnati as a long-term plan.  In that case streetcar routes would cover much of the city, light rail would also extend to the westside and into Nky.  The plan would also include high-speed rail connecting into the Midwest Regional plan.

Plugs for CincyStreetcar.com, Building-Cincinnati.com, John Schneider, but nothing for good old UrbanOhio (or UrbanCincy)...

 

Streetcar debate: Which way to Uptown?

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2008/12/01/tidbits1.html

 

Cincinnati’s streetcar plan has sparked a new public debate over the best route to connect downtown to the Uptown neighborhoods near the University of Cincinnati.

 

The city of Cincinnati is planning to hire an engineering firm to conduct an alternatives analysis, with the goal of finding a route that can tap into federal funding. The Federal Transit Administration rates potential rail projects on five factors, including cost-effectiveness, mobility improvements and the extent to which local governments have “transit-supportive land-use policies” in place along proposed rail routes.

John Schneider argued against both Vine Street and Clifton Avenue in his post. He said Gilbert Avenue to Taft Road is the best route for an Uptown connector. He claimed a trolley could travel from downtown’s Government Square to University Plaza in 10 minutes if it cut through Broadway Commons.

 

A trolley... :lol: 

 

 

Holiday Trolley Now Running Downtown

 

Holly Jolly Downtown Trolley

(Phyllis Ho, 9News) These days cars and buses are the preferred mode of transportation, but at one time, Cincinnati had trolleys.

 

Today you can take a ride back in time.

 

One passenger 9News met with brought her twin girls along for the ride on the Holly Jolly Downtown Trolley.

 

Nancy Streckfuss of Cincinnati said, "Just riding around to see the different things around Cincinnati. The girls love coming downtown."

 

You can ride the Holly Jolly Downtown Trolley on weekends through Sunday, December 21.

 

Riders board at the Westin Hotel across the street from Fountain Square for a 10 minute loop around downtown Cincinnati with stops at various holiday attractions.

 

Visit the related link for more information and a map of the trolley's route

 

 

If the streetcar used Gilbert to Taft it would likely get caught up in the reconstruction of the interchanges on I-71 in the area that the City of Cincinnati planning which will likely include Taft/McMillan.

 

That could delay construction and make the design more complex to accommodate all the traffic.

^I would agree with that, GHOST TRACKS.  I'd say we should take the least volatile route with the greatest return.

If the streetcar used Gilbert to Taft it would likely get caught up in the reconstruction of the interchanges on I-71 in the area that the City of Cincinnati planning which will likely include Taft/McMillan.

 

That could delay construction and make the design more complex to accommodate all the traffic.

 

on the other hand, the new MLK interchange would decrease the traffic load that taft is currently handling

I really don't see Taft as having a problem with horrible traffic.  I don't agree that we need a new highway interchange to solve a relatively benign traffic condition.

My guess is, this is not much of a problem, at least not a problem that would have to be addressed anytime soon. The region's Number 1 highway project right now is widening I-75 through Hamilton County. Next is a replacement of the Brent Spence Bridge. The new access to Uptown from I-71 probably won't happen until Year 2020 or so, if then. And I suspect the super interchange at MLK won't be built, ever.

 

Instead new access roads will be built alongside I-71 as it passes along the east side of Uptown and, functioning like Second and Third Streets in the Fort Washington Way system, that's how you will get on the freeway. I suspect the Taft, McMillan and MLK bridges -- perhaps altered somewhat -- will remain in place and that new ones will be built at Lincoln and Oak Street, thereby extending the Uptown street grid across the freeway. This will help unlock the area east of I-71 and diffuse freeway access across the breadth of Uptown rather than concentrating it as it is now.

 

If the Taft and McMillan bridges needed to be replaced, I'm guessing that the streetcar would initially be built along the south side of each bridge with the rails anchored to the deck, not embedded as is typical. You'd need to install Jersey barriers to segregate this lane from auto traffic, but there's hardly any traffic using those lanes anyway.

 

To prepare for the day when the bridges had to come down, the engineers would probably build crossovers at, say, May Street and Highland Avenues. You need to have crossovers anyway to be able to reroute the streetcar if there's a car accident blocking the tracks or if there is other trouble. For example, crossovers and turn-backs are already planned for the downtown loop on Central and !2th Street.

 

So if, say, the Taft bridge had to be rebuilt, a streetcar heading west from Gilbert on Taft would turn left at May Street to McMillan and use the McMillan bridge to cross the freeway. At Highland, it would turn right and travel a block to rejoin Taft. When the McMillan bridge had to be replaced, you would just reverse the process. Sophisticated signalling would safely control the 1000 or so feet of two-way traffic on the active bridge.

 

It would be a hassle, but not much of one for a system that's bound to last a hundred years.

 

I don't see any reason to hold the Cincinnati Streetcar hostage to a highway plan.

Does anyone know if the Taft ramps will be removed if the MLK interchange is built?  If so then there will be much less traffic on Taft and WH Taft and each could realistically be reverted to 2-way traffic.

 

Per ODOT's own rules, they cannot build partial interchanges anywhere for any reason anymore -- every interchange must be a full interchange.  This means the MLK interchange and associated lanes and retaining walls will be enormous.  It gets even more complicated if the Taft ramps are retained. 

if memory serves me correctly, they were considering a new type of "diamond" interchange which was supposed to take up less space

Hmm...I really wish they hadn't used that quote from me....

My guess is, this is not much of a problem, at least not a problem that would have to be addressed anytime soon. The region's Number 1 highway project right now is widening I-75 through Hamilton County. Next is a replacement of the Brent Spence Bridge. The new access to Uptown from I-71 probably won't happen until Year 2020 or so, if then. And I suspect the super interchange at MLK won't be built, ever.

 

Instead new access roads will be built alongside I-71 as it passes along the east side of Uptown and, functioning like Second and Third Streets in the Fort Washington Way system, that's how you will get on the freeway. I suspect the Taft, McMillan and MLK bridges -- perhaps altered somewhat -- will remain in place and that new ones will be built at Lincoln and Oak Street, thereby extending the Uptown street grid across the freeway. This will help unlock the area east of I-71 and diffuse freeway access across the breadth of Uptown rather than concentrating it as it is now.

 

If the Taft and McMillan bridges needed to be replaced, I'm guessing that the streetcar would initially be built along the south side of each bridge with the rails anchored to the deck, not embedded as is typical. You'd need to install Jersey barriers to segregate this lane from auto traffic, but there's hardly any traffic using those lanes anyway.

 

To prepare for the day when the bridges had to come down, the engineers would probably build crossovers at, say, May Street and Highland Avenues. You need to have crossovers anyway to be able to reroute the streetcar if there's a car accident blocking the tracks or if there is other trouble. For example, crossovers and turn-backs are already planned for the downtown loop on Central and !2th Street.

 

So if, say, the Taft bridge had to be rebuilt, a streetcar heading west from Gilbert on Taft would turn left at May Street to McMillan and use the McMillan bridge to cross the freeway. At Highland, it would turn right and travel a block to rejoin Taft. When the McMillan bridge had to be replaced, you would just reverse the process. Sophisticated signalling would safely control the 1000 or so feet of two-way traffic on the active bridge.

 

It would be a hassle, but not much of one for a system that's bound to last a hundred years.

 

I don't see any reason to hold the Cincinnati Streetcar hostage to a highway plan.

 

There needs to be a regional transportation bill like T-trax in Denver. Only then will we get these projects started in a few years instead of 2 decades away.

My guess is, this is not much of a problem, at least not a problem that would have to be addressed anytime soon. The region's Number 1 highway project right now is widening I-75 through Hamilton County. Next is a replacement of the Brent Spence Bridge. The new access to Uptown from I-71 probably won't happen until Year 2020 or so, if then. And I suspect the super interchange at MLK won't be built, ever.

 

Instead new access roads will be built alongside I-71 as it passes along the east side of Uptown and, functioning like Second and Third Streets in the Fort Washington Way system, that's how you will get on the freeway. I suspect the Taft, McMillan and MLK bridges -- perhaps altered somewhat -- will remain in place and that new ones will be built at Lincoln and Oak Street, thereby extending the Uptown street grid across the freeway. This will help unlock the area east of I-71 and diffuse freeway access across the breadth of Uptown rather than concentrating it as it is now.

 

If the Taft and McMillan bridges needed to be replaced, I'm guessing that the streetcar would initially be built along the south side of each bridge with the rails anchored to the deck, not embedded as is typical. You'd need to install Jersey barriers to segregate this lane from auto traffic, but there's hardly any traffic using those lanes anyway.

 

To prepare for the day when the bridges had to come down, the engineers would probably build crossovers at, say, May Street and Highland Avenues. You need to have crossovers anyway to be able to reroute the streetcar if there's a car accident blocking the tracks or if there is other trouble. For example, crossovers and turn-backs are already planned for the downtown loop on Central and !2th Street.

 

So if, say, the Taft bridge had to be rebuilt, a streetcar heading west from Gilbert on Taft would turn left at May Street to McMillan and use the McMillan bridge to cross the freeway. At Highland, it would turn right and travel a block to rejoin Taft. When the McMillan bridge had to be replaced, you would just reverse the process. Sophisticated signalling would safely control the 1000 or so feet of two-way traffic on the active bridge.

 

It would be a hassle, but not much of one for a system that's bound to last a hundred years.

 

I don't see any reason to hold the Cincinnati Streetcar hostage to a highway plan.

 

There needs to be a regional transportation bill like T-trax in Denver. Only then will we get these projects started in a few years instead of 2 decades away.

 

That and a huge change in Federal support.

This may be old news, but I went to Union Terminal today and the lower level has some sharp exhibits including a huge model of the urban core circa 1800s. There was also a full size streetcar that I didn't know was there. I guess I haven't been in the basement for some time. You may enjoy these shots.

 

 

How long would this interior last if used today.

 

How long would this interior last if used today.

 

Ten seconds. People today get so pissed when they see a sign saying no food or drinks. They can't stop eating or chugging pop for even 10 minutes. I work at a store, and if we put up a sign saying "No food or drinks" people rip it down, ignore it (don't dare remind them of the sign), or dump the substance on the sign. Even 15 years ago people were very dilligent about following that rule. Well, look at a lot of people today; you can tell that they can't stop.

 

In D.C., you get in big trouble for eating or drinking on the subway; but in NYC you don't seem to. I'm sure that's responsible for some of the differences in cleanliness.

^---- Things like this can make a pretty big difference. Planner types like Urban Ohio folks talk about routes, grades, headway times, and so on, but for how many people is driving an automobile the more attractive option because it allows them to eat, drink, smoke, and play the radio?

I think the big difference between the NYC and DC subways are (1) the magnitude of the system and (2) 24-hour operation.  NYC just can't provide the same level of enforcement as DC.  That said, while I never rode the NYC subway in the pre-Guiliani days, I gather it has advanced by light years in terms of rider safety/comfort.  In general, though, NYC still has bigger fish to fry (yes, I've seen fried fish eaten on the NYC subway) than some eating and drinking.

 

If we bought everyone an mp3 player and an iTunes gift card so they could tune out other people (like in NYC), maybe they would buy in.  Not exactly fostering that community spirit, but if it gets the job done...

^^^Thanks, moonloop.  I should stop by there sometime to check on the old streetcar.

from the soapbox guest blogger

 

http://www.soapboxmedia.com/blogs/posts/42bobbymaly1.aspx

from the soapbox guest blogger

 

http://www.soapboxmedia.com/blogs/posts/42bobbymaly1.aspx

 

Amen to that.  I said months ago on this forum.  I'm 21.  I live in Milwaukee. I'm going to graduate in 17 months.  And where I got after that depends on one thing.  A streetcar.  If there's a streetcar under construction in 2010, I'll be moving to Cincy.  If not, I'll end up somewhere else (but I really hope it doesn't come down to that).  People don't understand the thought processes of our generation.  We really do care more about where we live than where we work.  I want to live in a dense, historic neighborhood with a close proximity to downtown and rail access.  DING DING DING that adds up to OTR (if a streetcar gets built).

 

Let's get this thing on the road.  Ooh ooh, hey, here's an idea.  Let's add it to the WPA list.  Sounds like a bunch of really good recession jobs. ;)

from the soapbox guest blogger

 

http://www.soapboxmedia.com/blogs/posts/42bobbymaly1.aspx

 

Amen to that.  I said months ago on this forum.  I'm 21.  I live in Milwaukee. I'm going to graduate in 17 months.  And where I got after that depends on one thing.  A streetcar.  If there's a streetcar under construction in 2010, I'll be moving to Cincy.  If not, I'll end up somewhere else (but I really hope it doesn't come down to that).  People don't understand the thought processes of our generation.  We really do care more about where we live than where we work.  I want to live in a dense, historic neighborhood with a close proximity to downtown and rail access.  DING DING DING that adds up to OTR (if a streetcar gets built).

 

Let's get this thing on the road.  Ooh ooh, hey, here's an idea.  Let's add it to the WPA list.  Sounds like a bunch of really good recession jobs. ;)

 

Uuuuuuum just move to Shaker Square and get over yourself.  ;) 

Rail line, check. 

Dense neighborhood, check! 

Historic neighborhood, check! 

Close proximity to various other "destinations", check! 

Direct rail access to downtown and the Airport, check!

 

from the soapbox guest blogger

 

http://www.soapboxmedia.com/blogs/posts/42bobbymaly1.aspx

 

Amen to that. I said months ago on this forum. I'm 21. I live in Milwaukee. I'm going to graduate in 17 months. And where I got after that depends on one thing. A streetcar. If there's a streetcar under construction in 2010, I'll be moving to Cincy. If not, I'll end up somewhere else (but I really hope it doesn't come down to that). People don't understand the thought processes of our generation. We really do care more about where we live than where we work. I want to live in a dense, historic neighborhood with a close proximity to downtown and rail access. DING DING DING that adds up to OTR (if a streetcar gets built).

 

Let's get this thing on the road. Ooh ooh, hey, here's an idea. Let's add it to the WPA list. Sounds like a bunch of really good recession jobs. ;)

 

Uuuuuuum just move to Shaker Square and get over yourself. ;)  

Rail line, check.

Dense neighborhood, check!

Historic neighborhood, check!

Close proximity to various other "destinations", check!

Direct rail access to downtown and the Airport, check!

 

 

Isn't Shaker Square a strip mall?

When you have an extra minute, take another look at the great pics of the Museum Center's streetcar posted yesterday, for therein lies a story.

 

People often ask, "What's the problem with climbing hills, the old ones used to do it.?"

 

True, so far as it goes. The old streetcars had comfy seats because streetcars were, then, the primary means of travel over fairly long distances. Each vehicle accommodated maybe 40 or 50 people. The vehicles were about the size of a modern bus, some smaller even.

 

This is not the case with modern streetcars. They are much larger, so large that they bend in two places to make it around corners. And they maybe have thirty seats. The remaining hundred or so people stand. That's the opportunity -- to move a lot of people at fairly low cost because the driver's salary and benefits are spread over many riders. That's also the problem, because if you're on a vehicle that's climbing or descending a steep slope and making curves on a grade, it's not particularly comfortable to be standing, densely packed. Stand up on a bus going up or down the Vine Street or Clifton hills, you'll see what I mean.

 

In Portland, they've pretty much decided that the West Hills will never have streetcar service because it's, well, just too hilly there. It's just the way it is. That's why, if we're really serious about car-competitive rail transit to Uptown, Gilbert's probably the best way to do it.

from the soapbox guest blogger

 

http://www.soapboxmedia.com/blogs/posts/42bobbymaly1.aspx

 

Amen to that.  I said months ago on this forum.  I'm 21.  I live in Milwaukee. I'm going to graduate in 17 months.  And where I got after that depends on one thing.  A streetcar.  If there's a streetcar under construction in 2010, I'll be moving to Cincy.  If not, I'll end up somewhere else (but I really hope it doesn't come down to that).  People don't understand the thought processes of our generation.  We really do care more about where we live than where we work.  I want to live in a dense, historic neighborhood with a close proximity to downtown and rail access.  DING DING DING that adds up to OTR (if a streetcar gets built).

 

Let's get this thing on the road.  Ooh ooh, hey, here's an idea.  Let's add it to the WPA list.  Sounds like a bunch of really good recession jobs. ;)

 

Uuuuuuum just move to Shaker Square and get over yourself.  ;)   

Rail line, check. 

Dense neighborhood, check! 

Historic neighborhood, check! 

Close proximity to various other "destinations", check! 

Direct rail access to downtown and the Airport, check!

 

 

Isn't Shaker Square a strip mall?

 

I think the big difference between the NYC and DC subways are (1) the magnitude of the system and (2) 24-hour operation. NYC just can't provide the same level of enforcement as DC. That said, while I never rode the NYC subway in the pre-Guiliani days, I gather it has advanced by light years in terms of rider safety/comfort. In general, though, NYC still has bigger fish to fry (yes, I've seen fried fish eaten on the NYC subway) than some eating and drinking.

 

If we bought everyone an mp3 player and an iTunes gift card so they could tune out other people (like in NYC), maybe they would buy in. Not exactly fostering that community spirit, but if it gets the job done...

 

agreed. also, when comparing ny to dc i would add (3) age of the system to that.

 

interesting about rules in the ny subway, they were modified recently and the pertinent one sez:

 

"It is a violation to- Carry any liquid in an open container onto a train or bus"

 

so yeah, no open buckets of paint, but does that also mean coffee w/ a flip lid or a water or soda bottle w/ a twist cap? it's unclear (i take both regularly). far as i know there is no rule at all about food, well maybe there is but i dk i dont eat on the train. someone is always eating, it's gross, but that's really more about there is nowhere to sit in ny with takeout food. if anyone is interested here is the detailed mta conduct rules link:

http://www.mta.info/nyct/rules/rules.htm

 

if and when the streetcar happens for cinci these kinds of situations and rules will have to be considered, but i hope they aren't too draconian about them.

 

 

 

     

from the soapbox guest blogger

 

http://www.soapboxmedia.com/blogs/posts/42bobbymaly1.aspx

 

Amen to that. I said months ago on this forum. I'm 21. I live in Milwaukee. I'm going to graduate in 17 months. And where I got after that depends on one thing. A streetcar. If there's a streetcar under construction in 2010, I'll be moving to Cincy. If not, I'll end up somewhere else (but I really hope it doesn't come down to that). People don't understand the thought processes of our generation. We really do care more about where we live than where we work. I want to live in a dense, historic neighborhood with a close proximity to downtown and rail access. DING DING DING that adds up to OTR (if a streetcar gets built).

 

Let's get this thing on the road. Ooh ooh, hey, here's an idea. Let's add it to the WPA list. Sounds like a bunch of really good recession jobs. ;)

 

Uuuuuuum just move to Shaker Square and get over yourself. ;)

Rail line, check.

Dense neighborhood, check!

Historic neighborhood, check!

Close proximity to various other "destinations", check!

Direct rail access to downtown and the Airport, check!

 

 

Isn't Shaker Square a strip mall?

 

No, it just looks cheap. Not every city can have a Hyde Park Square or O'Bryonville. :)

i see white people... :roll:

 

CINCINNATI

 

The Alliance for Regional Transit is tonight reintroducing www.protransit.com -- now more streetcar-friendly and with enriched graphics. There's a NEWS tab with regional and national articles about higher-level transit and New Urbanism going back to 2001. You'll find an FAQ'S page and lots of info on modern streetcars in general and the Cincinnati Streetcar proposal in particular. I'm particularly happy with the PICS section which enables viewers to copy and distribute images of light rail and streetcars in service around the country and around the world. It's a visual story, after all.

 

Credit goes to Heyob Design, here: http://www.heyobdesign.com/portfolio.shtml and to Shannon Reitenbach, who has diligently posted news items to the site since it was created. And to the many dozens of Cincinnatians who have underwritten the cost of this project.

 

The work has been extensively fact-checked. You can rely on it. Have a look, starting with this really cool map: http://www.pro-transit.com/Maps/

 

very nice link. seems like a fine figure-eight of a route to start with!

The map page is fantastic. Great link.

Great work...the streetcar map is a great addition to the already stellar light rail map.  I just can't wait until they're reality.

Great job on the redesign, John.

Redesign looks great! So glad to see light rail slowly becoming a reality in Cincinnati. Just with that regional map extended to Fairfield. :D

I think that, by the time the light rail lines are built, the airport line will become somewhat of a white elephant.  Do we really think that people will be traveling even like they do today to the airport?  I don't believe that light rail to the airport is economically sensible.  In this situation, I'd be for rapid bus down to the airport from Cincinnati via 471 to 275 or 75 to 275.  However, express bus service to the airport *today* doesn't have the ridership.  What happens when there are half as many passengers going to and from the airport?

 

Everything else looks good decent though.  John, could you tell me what is the rationale behind some of those termini?