...may not spend any monies for right-of-way acquisition or construction of improvements for passenger rail transportation (e.g., a trolley or streetcar) within the city limits...

 

I commented on this once already, but does the above make sense to anyone?  I can't figure out why ROW would need to be acquired for a streetcar.  It seems to me that the entire route is comprised of presently existing streets, so at what point would the city even be looking into land acquisitions?

I know they need to aquire some property for the car barns, and I suppose, depending on the route, that it could require travelling to the side of a street, or across property between two streets, however this should be minor, if needed at all.

^ This is the most pernicious part. Right now, city staff is working to ensure that ROW for light rail is included in the plans to widen I-75. This activity would be prevented without a vote if the issue passes.

 

The streetcar wont require any ROW except for the car barn. In some cases, support wires for the overhead catenary may be suspended from adjacent buildings if the owners prefer to do so. Makes the wires even less visible because it gets rid of the poles.

But such a provision could have a negative effect on future intercity passenger rail service into Cincinnati if this proposal passes.  How short-sighted can they be?

I don't get why the NAACP is so anti-rail... Does this petition prohibit any future funding for the Underground Railroad museum?

^ Because local NAACP leadership is fundamentally racist themselves. If the streetcar happens, lots more white people will move into OTR, which is something they can't tolerate.

 

It's the whole anti-gentrification crusade. And rail-based transit will almost certainly bring gentrification (which is kind of the point).

>I don't get why the NAACP is so anti-rail...

 

Ironically in other cities the NAACP and other groups fight tirelessly for better rail transit.  The best example is the fight for replacement of the Washington St. elevated in Boston.  It was demolished in the 1980s and replaced with BRT bus service and the area suffered.  In that example a black neighborhood really was screwed by a transit authority in favor of spending elsewhere.  They have been fighting to have that bus service replaced by rail because in a city with rail everyone understands that rail service is preferable to bus service. 

 

I think the NAACP should focus more on efforts by Green Twp to cut the #33 bus which is blatantly racially motivated.  They along with any opponents reading this forum should also study what's going on with rail in other cities, because with Phoenix opening its first light rail line this past week, Cincinnati is now the second largest metro area in America without rail transit behind Detroit.         

 

 

 

While the "right-of-way acquisition" language may or may not apply to the streetcar, it's the kind of language that would gain the property rights vote.  It may be in there just to help gain votes.

^ Because local NAACP leadership is fundamentally racist themselves. If the streetcar happens, lots more white people will move into OTR, which is something they can't tolerate.

 

It's the whole anti-gentrification crusade. And rail-based transit will almost certainly bring gentrification (which is kind of the point).

 

Let's be careful about making broad-brush statements like this.  I've got several friends who are lifetime NAACP members who would dispute the above.  I suspect the local chapter is doing what they are doing more out of being ill-informed about the benefits of rail-based transit.  It might not be a bad idea for local streetcar supporters to invite the chapter leadership to a "summit" to talk frankly about the benefits that could accrue and why more transportation options will help and not hurt their constituency.

^ :clap:

I'm more inclined to believe the gentrification arguement than the NAACP's stated goals of eradicating bed bugs and adding speed bumps to neighborhoods...  Could the financing identified for the streetcars go toward those goals anyway?  From the way I understand TIFF financing, the improvements must be made in the neighborhood in question and is limited to certain projects (which may or may not include bed bugs and speed bumps)?

By the time this appears on the ballot, if it does, Cincinnatians will be offered a clear choice on the kind of city they want to have, and so this poorly conceived effort to change the city charter will lose.

 

Resources will be needed in the next month to shape a response -- early seed money for paid, professional research. So between now and the end of the year, every contribution received by the Alliance for Regional Transit will be forwarded to those leading the effort for a balanced transportation system in Cincinnati.

 

So today or tomorrow, please make a contribution. You can mail or make an electronic donation, here:

 

http://www.pro-transit.com/Contribute.asp

 

People ask, "What can I do?" Here's the short answer: there will be plenty of opportunities for personal involvement later this year, but right now the easiest and best thing you can do is write a check. Be bold.

 

Have a Happy New Year. Who'd a thunk we'd be on the ballot in 2009?

 

John Schneider

 

Anybody else think there should be weekly happy hours at downtown, otr, and clifton locations with either a portion of proceeds going this direction, or some sort of raffle/50-50?

 

I mean, streetcars will drum up business for these locations, so they should be willing to help out/host.

Sounds like a pretty good idea to me.

^^ I would take part in that, and hope promote it as well.

And I'll bring my little sister's 98 Degrees CD. 

Let's be careful about making broad-brush statements like this.  I've got several friends who are lifetime NAACP members who would dispute the above.  I suspect the local chapter is doing what they are doing more out of being ill-informed about the benefits of rail-based transit.  It might not be a bad idea for local streetcar supporters to invite the chapter leadership to a "summit" to talk frankly about the benefits that could accrue and why more transportation options will help and not hurt their constituency.

 

Honestly, I think it's completely fair to accuse the NAACP of racism in this matter. Everyone involved knows that the proposed streetcar is going through heavily black neighborhoods. Everyone involved also knows about the massive potential reinvestment in OTR. The NAACP leadership isn't simply ignorant of these benefits - in fact, I'd wager that rail's "benefits" are precisely what they don't like. They've obviously looked at the situation and made the conclusion that a streetcar actively harms their interests.

 

The spending angle doesn't even make logical sense, as others have rightly pointed out. If Cincy loses streetcar funding, for the most part the money just dissapears. The NAACP is behaving as if the death of the streetcar is per se a benefit to them.

 

Clearly, there are much stronger forces at work here, and I think it's only logical to assume that this is an anti-gentrification issue at its core.

So then why aren't they pushing for a large portion of protected affordable housing near the streetcar line? Simply being opposed to streetcars makes no sense.

^ You're absolutely right. Simply being opposed to streetcars doesn't make any sense. And yet they are. (Unless we are seriously entertaining the notion that it's really about speedbumps.)

 

Since this is a streetcar thread, I don't want to get into a larger gentrification debate, but protected affordable housing isn't really on the table, and in fact the political will seems to be to reduce OTRs overall complement of subsidized housing. Perhaps that's one of the shadow issues that has the NAACP so upset to begin with?

 

But at the end of the day, the NAACP is now strongly opposed to the streetcar, to the detriment of Cincinnati. So I'm all ears if anyone can tell me what the real issue is, if not gentrification.

Half of City West is subsidized housing. It's just exceptionally 'nice' because HUD chose to have their more responsible tenants occupy the subsidized housing while giving the rest of the old tenants vouchers across the city. You can definitely develop a neighborhood that includes a nice amount of subsidized housing and make it work but obviously the 100+ social services need to be decentralized. OTR is in the position it is in now due to failed public policy. NAACP's initiative simply maintains that failed status quo.

The problem with the gentrification argument is that hardly anyone lives in Over-the-Rhine currently, meaning hardly anyone is under threat of being pushed out.  And even if they are pushed out, this city has no shortage of cheap residential properties in any number of neighborhoods, not the least of which is the West End, just 2-3 blocks west of Findlay Market.  The real threat to the city's poor is that of being pushed out into distant suburban areas where bus service is sparse or under threat of being terminated, as is the case with the #33. 

 

Excellent point. ^

 

This would be a great counter argument to the NAACP argument and a reason they should be supporting the streetcar and other rail-based options.

I don't get why the NAACP is so anti-rail...

 

Once again, it is the local chapter of the NAACP that is opposed to the streetcar.  And their opposition is a function of personality (i.e. local chapter leader Christopher Smitherman), not of any policy that emanates down from the national office.

 

They teamed up with COAST to oppose the county-wide jail tax plan.  It failed, so they considered this to be an effective tactic.  They then teamed up with COAST to push charter changes for a ban on red-light cameras and to create proportional representation.  They got the charter change for the red-light cameras, while they failed on prop rep.  I suppose they think they can win on this.  I doubt it.

 

I would suggest that viewing this as a referendum on the streetcar is accepting the conceit of the people attempting to stop it.  It seems to me that this proposal has been voted previously when councilmembers who supported it or opposed it were all re-elected.  A group of lobbyists who take advantage of the public's understandably limited knowledge of how governmental budgets are crafted and executed doesn't strike me as being particularly democratic.  There's no reason to suspect that a referendum or constitutional change is a more authentic expression of the popular will than a representative who is continually re-elected to office.  I would suggest that a re-elected politician is in fact a better expression of it, since he or she must be elected at different periods in time whereas the referendum expresses the public mood only at one given time.

 

 

What Lk said, this is about Smitherman and nothing more.

Does anybody know when Dohoney is going to address Council on the status of the project?

Should we expect to hear an update after the RFQ deadline.

Everybody, lets light these comment boards up today!!!!!!  I know we all get tired of repeating the same thing over and over, but this is how we can all do our part for the cause.

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090106/NEWS01/901060334/1055/NEWS

 

Streetcar opponents propose trolley

$9M plan would start earlier, lessen traffic hassles, they say

By Barry M. Horstman • [email protected] • January 6, 2009

 

Opponents of Cincinnati's $185 million proposal to run permanent-track streetcars from downtown to Uptown are urging city leaders to consider a rubber-wheeled trolley system that they contend could provide the same service for a fraction of the cost.

 

 

The alternative $9 million trolley plan, to be financed largely with private money, also could begin operating sooner and without the disruption of tearing up streets to lay tracks that would either eliminate parking or traffic lanes along the route, according to former Cincinnati City Councilman Charlie Winburn.

Charlie Winburn is a running gag that just won't go away.  We also had rubber tired trolleys around downtown on more than one occasion, and they are gone because no one rode them.

What a perfect day to bring this out. No way the trolley could get up the hill with all this ice.

If they are going to do a trolley with private money why don't they just do it?

Theres no law preventing them right?

Then we can see how it actually works until it fails and the streetcar replaces it.

Man that would be good for me if it runs frequently.

Give the people a choice between the streetcar or more auto traffic, and propose the following ammendment:

 

Be it resolved by the people of the City of Cincinnati that a new Article XVII of the Charter is hereby added as follows: The City, and its various Boards and Commissions, may not spend any monies for right-of-way acquisition or construction of improvements for WIDENING STREETS OR ADDING AUTO TRAFFIC LANES within the city limits without first submitting the question of approval of such expenditure to a vote of the electorate of the City and receiving a majority affirmative vote for the same.

Here, Here

 

^^If they manage to get the signatures required for their anti-rail charter amendment to be put to a vote, please try to obtain enough signatures for the amendment above.  I'd volunteer to sign the petition myself, but I don't live within the Cincinnati city limits.

Trolley buses are a joke.  COTA tried them here in Columbus and they failed because most people saw them for what they are: a poor subsitute for the real thing.

^Trolley buses are to streetcars, as laminate floors are to hardwood.

Everybody, lets light these comment boards up today!!!!!! I know we all get tired of repeating the same thing over and over, but this is how we can all do our part for the cause.

 

 

While it is important to make our positive voice known on those forums, let's not spend all of our energy bickering with those clowns who spew nonsense on the comments section. If this thing (and other urban issues) does get to a vote, we need an organized and unified plan of action that will accomplish goals and make a difference. Spending our time arguing with these folks who are against any development within the city (Banks, Fountain Square, Streetcar, etc.) is the equivalent of banging our heads with hammers, it may seem like we're contributing but it's not getting anything done..

To third, trolley buses are stupid. Arrgh. . . the point of the streetcar is not that they look like ugly-bodied buses. The Southbank shuttles are better as a wheeled alternative than the silly trolley buses.

Here's the thing, many people base their opinions on issues like this on what they hear/read in the media.  Most don't go look for the pros and cons, or honestly sit and ponder these issues.  If the Enquirer runs a story about how Trolleys are a worthy replacement for a streetcar, or Bill Cunningham runs his mouth about boondogles, and the NAACP makes noise, then Joe, who previously couldn't have cared, is now most likely against the streetcar.  What if the article had a positive title?  What if there was a popular radio host with pro-transit views?  Joe may now be pro streetcar whether or not he lives in downtown.

 

How do we get through to those people?  If this eventually gets to a vote, people arent going to decide for themselves, someone is going to decide for them.

Would it be productive to write back into the enquirer, posing all the problems and downsides that Winburn forgot to mention about this so called ". . .faster. . .cheaper. . .[zero liability]" alternative?

^ That would be more effective, actually... if it gets printed, that is.

well what if tonight and tomorrow, active members funneled information about failed attempts, reports, anecdotes, etc. to somebody willing to write up a rebuttal? What about a new thread. .  maybe January 6th Rebuttal or something like that?

Sorry for the double-post but here are some quick numbers compairing metropolitan Cincinnati and Cleveland:

 

Population for City Limits (est. 2006):

Cincinnati - 332,252

Cleveland - 444,313

 

census.gov (http://www.census.gov/popest/cities/files/SUB-EST2006_39.csv)

 

Population for Greater Area (est. July, 2006):

Cincinnati - 2,050,175

Cleveland - 2,945,831

 

census.gov (http://www.census.gov/popest/metro/tables/2006/CBSA-EST2006-02.csv)

 

So we can think about that in relation to the stats posted by

 

Cincinnati's "metro" - http://www.go-metro.com/about.html

 

Cleveland's "rta" - http://www.riderta.com/ar_RTAfacts.asp

 

Hope this is a start.

What a perfect day to bring this out. No way the trolley could get up the hill with all this ice.

 

I was out of town today, but if it was really this bad, this is a timely observation. I'd send a letter to the Enquirer.

Those Cincinnati/Cleveland population figures (2006) are obviously out of date. Mallory claims Cincy's pop is 378,000, and that the metro pop is now the largest, when Ky and IND regions are included.

^OK, sorry. I just looked for what I could get from gov't census. . .

^So Cleveland RTA has 57.3 million passenger trips, while Cincinnati Metro has 22 million passenger trips, which would imply significantly more transit use in Cleveland.

 

It would be interesting to see passenger miles in addition to passenger trips.

well what if tonight and tomorrow, active members funneled information about failed attempts, reports, anecdotes, etc. to somebody willing to write up a rebuttal? What about a new thread. . maybe January 6th Rebuttal or something like that?

 

Probably a great idea.  But more than spelling out other failed attempts, my preference at least would be to highlight the ECONOMIC benefits of streetcars and further forays into light rail.

 

People respond to their wallets.  If you make it an investment with a return, rather than just spending money, the response will be much more positive.

well what if tonight and tomorrow, active members funneled information about failed attempts, reports, anecdotes, etc. to somebody willing to write up a rebuttal? What about a new thread. . maybe January 6th Rebuttal or something like that?

 

Probably a great idea. But more than spelling out other failed attempts, my preference at least would be to highlight the ECONOMIC benefits of streetcars and further forays into light rail.

 

People respond to their wallets. If you make it an investment with a return, rather than just spending money, the response will be much more positive.

 

I agree, but I think the problem we'll run into is that the vast majority of the Enquirer's readership will simply refuse to believe that any sort of investment can help downtown, or specifically, OTR. My father-in-law still flips his lid when I tell him his daughter likes to shop in OTR, and then begins to give me anecdotal stories about violent bums and construction workers getting randomly shot years ago.

 

It's the typical Cincinnati (more west side than east) short-sightedness, and it'll take a huge PR push to get public approval if this thing does go to a vote. Hopefully it won't come to that and when the thing gets built and starts to attract all of the investment, people will come over on their own.

^So Cleveland RTA has 57.3 million passenger trips, while Cincinnati Metro has 22 million passenger trips, which would imply significantly more transit use in Cleveland.

 

It would be interesting to see passenger miles in addition to passenger trips.

 

You should include the TANK numbers as well, but yes that is a accurate statement

well what if tonight and tomorrow, active members funneled information about failed attempts, reports, anecdotes, etc. to somebody willing to write up a rebuttal? What about a new thread. .  maybe January 6th Rebuttal or something like that?

 

Probably a great idea.  But more than spelling out other failed attempts, my preference at least would be to highlight the ECONOMIC benefits of streetcars and further forays into light rail.

 

People respond to their wallets.  If you make it an investment with a return, rather than just spending money, the response will be much more positive.

 

I agree, but I think the problem we'll run into is that the vast majority of the Enquirer's readership will simply refuse to believe that any sort of investment can help downtown, or specifically, OTR. My father-in-law still flips his lid when I tell him his daughter likes to shop in OTR, and then begins to give me anecdotal stories about violent bums and construction workers getting randomly shot years ago.

 

It's the typical Cincinnati (more west side than east) short-sightedness, and it'll take a huge PR push to get public approval if this thing does go to a vote. Hopefully it won't come to that and when the thing gets built and starts to attract all of the investment, people will come over on their own.

 

Then maybe rather than referring to otr we call it the CORE and tout how a strong core increases the tax base which in turn generates tax dollars to be used in various westside neighborhoods.

Somewhat related since he has been one of the thorns in this initiatives side, Cranley steps down tomorrow.

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090107/NEWS0108/301070046/1056/COL02