^I'm a lot more confident of the ability of the City voters to understand this as being a big ploy.  In my opinion, the opponents overplayed their hand when they suggested a theme trolley/bus as an alternative.  The key things to emphasize are:

 

-Modern Streetcars are an entirely different technology, with faster embark/debark times, more carrying capacity, etc.

 

-No city that has implemented the use of these modern streetcars have replaced them with bus service, because they work, and because buses serve different functions.

 

-Cincinnati is better than all of those cities, therefore it will work even better here (and mention the expected 14 to 1 return on investment)

 

-It is stupid that the neighborhood that lies between the two biggest employment zones in the City (Downtown and University/Pill Hill) is as depopulated as it is.  The streetcar, unlike the buses that currently run through it, in addition to what else it will do, will address this problem specifcally.

 

-For those who 'like' the mobility of buses, the fact that they can move base on population, ask them when they expect Findlay Market, Music Hall, the Courthouse, the Aronoff, the Contemporary Arts Center, etc to move from their locations?

 

-

If UC moves out of Uptown and Downtown is no longer a major employment center, reduced streetcar ridership would be the least of the City's worries.

Cranley resigning council seat

By Howard Wilkinson • [email protected] • January 7, 2009

 

 

Democratic Cincinnati city councilman John Cranley, prevented by term limits from seeking another term, said today he will resign his council seat Thursday and concentrate on private West Side real estate developments.

 

 

Cranley's resignation means that his fellow Democratic council members must choose someone to fill out the final 11 months of his term.

 

The replacement is likely to be a Democrat who was planning on running for council this year and could use the advantage of running as an incumbent.

 

Candidates include Greg Harris or Brian Garry, two Democrats who have run before and are likely to run again this year.

 

Cranley, who joined council as an appointed member in 2000, is a partner in City Lights Development LLC, which is developing Incline Square, a mixed-use development in East Price Hill.

 

He said Wednesday he is going to work on securing financing and breaking ground on that project.

 

Cranley said he is also becoming a partner in a second development, Harbor Lights LLC, run by developer Ray Brown. That development would take a stretch of River Road in Lower Price Hill and build apartments and condos, and restaurant and office spaces.

 

He is also joining the Cincinnati law firm of Keating, Muething & Klekamp, where he will work in the firm's bond and municipal finance division.

 

Cranley said Wednesday he expects an appointment from Ohio Gov. Ted Strickland to a state board that issues licenses to social workers and marriage counselors.

 

Cranley, who was appointed to council originally to replace Todd Portune and then won election on his own four times, was the Democratic candidate in the 1st Congressional District in 2006, coming up short of unseating Republican incumbent Steve Chabot.

 

Cranley said Wednesday that while he is leaving early to enter the private sector, he is not through with politics.

 

"I expect that I will run again for some office when the opportunity arises,'' Cranley said.

 

 

Good news for the streetcars! Assuming someone more forward thinking takes his spot.

^Greg Harris is a big streetcar supporter and a leading candidate for the job.

^Greg Harris is a big streetcar supporter and a leading candidate for the job.

 

Perfect!!!

After reading all of the outlandish claims about rubber tired trolleys being the answer, I figured I had to join the fray.  As Winburn asserted, Cleveland has had success with their "trolley" on the Euclid Ave. Corridor, but the project required construction of exclusive bus lanes (not possible in urban Cincinnati), modern stations to permit level floor boarding, and custom vehicles.  The total price for the 6+ mile route was $200 million!  Here is an article about the opening of the system.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2008/11/_cleveland_a_city_fighting.html

 

^Nice find. Just goes to show if you're serious about attracting money to your city, you need to make an investment, no matter the technology.

 

Winburn's idea would do absolutely nothing to attract investment, and the ridership of such a bus-trolley in Cincinnati would have no bearing whatsoever on the popularity or feasability of a streetcar.

After reading all of the outlandish claims about rubber tired trolleys being the answer, I figured I had to join the fray. As Winburn asserted, Cleveland has had success with their "trolley" on the Euclid Ave. Corridor, but the project required construction of exclusive bus lanes (not possible in urban Cincinnati), modern stations to permit level floor boarding, and custom vehicles. The total price for the 6+ mile route was $200 million! Here is an article about the opening of the system.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2008/11/_cleveland_a_city_fighting.html

 

 

The Cleveland "trolley's" and the Euclid Corridor BRT project are two completely different things.  The trolley's don't even run in the dedicated BRT lane when they are on Euclid. 

^ To expand on that, the trolleys in Cleveland are really just free downtown loop buses.  They're only called "trolleys" and designed to look like trolleys for cutesy marketing purposes.  The routes they run could just as easily be covered by regular buses, and I believe they once were.  Since the "trolley" buses are smaller they're probably cheaper on fuel, which may assist in providing the service for free.  Whatever your bus route to Clifton/UC is, just stop charging fares for it, and you would then have a "trolley" service like Cleveland's.  Actually the loop routes are fairly small, so I doubt an equivalent service would make it past Over-the-Rhein. 

2 loops, one is 3.5 miles, one is 2 miles.  How many trolley's do they have on each route?

not sure how many actual vehicles there are... but they run every 10 minutes 7am to 7pm.  Bottom line, in no way are "rubber wheeled" trolley's as good as street cars.  But I think part of the problem with buses is the stigmatism associated with them.  The Cleveland "Trolley's" look like old school trolley's, green with wood siding, wood benches, bell dings at each stop, etc... and as a resident I use them all the time, and they are quite popular.  That being said I would cut a hand off to have them be actual street cars.  I just wanted to make sure you guys distinguished the Cleveland "Trolley's" which required no infastructure upgrades, just new trolley like busses and signs and stops, from the Euclid Avenue BRT project.

 

http://www.riderta.com/ro_downtown.asp

 

Personally I think they're significantly better than just having a bus run the loop... but like I said, a far cry from a streetcar.

 

 

2 loops, one is 3.5 miles, one is 2 miles.  How many trolley's do they have on each route?

 

Don't know.  They come every 15 minutes or so.  It's a great service, I love it, but it has nothing to do with installing an actual streetcar line.

 

I would cut a hand off to have them be actual street cars. 

 

Edit:  ^ what he said

See the action alert from the American Public Transportation Association posted at:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,14971.msg357239.html#msg357239

As Winburn asserted, Cleveland has had success with their "trolley" on the Euclid Ave. Corridor, but the project required construction of exclusive bus lanes (not possible in urban Cincinnati), modern stations to permit level floor boarding, and custom vehicles.

 

And this recent news item pretty much shows that without tracks in the ground even "dedicated" pavement doesn't mean much.  I don't care if you paint a stripe down a road, add some decorative stops, or whatever.  It is no substitute for tracks and the permanence that they add.

This is a pretty good article that cuts through a lot of the crap that is currently out there about this...

 

Train Wreck

Ballot initiative coalition led by NAACP chapter targets city's streetcar plan

http://www.citybeat.com/cincinnati/article-16909-train-wreck.html

 

A diverse coalition of groups led by the NAACP’s Cincinnati chapter that blocked Hamilton County officials from increasing the sales tax in 2007 to build a new jail has set its sights on another project: the city’s proposed streetcar system.

 

The NAACP recently launched a petition drive to place an issue on the November ballot that would amend the city’s charter to prevent Cincinnati officials from spending money on the streetcar project without first getting approval from city voters. The charter is the city’s governing document, just as the U.S. Constitution provides guidelines and restrictions at the federal level.

^That's funny, because, the average citizen, when they had the chance to look at Christopher Smitherman closely after serving one two-year term in office, rejected him. 

 

Also, as a former councilman he should know that in fact there is not simply one checkbook or bucket that we put all our tax dollars in.

Can somebody please tell me why ANYBODY takes anything that Jason Haap aka 'The Dean' has to say seriously. The man is a complete idiot, and has protested nearly every good thing to happen in this city in the last five years. Case in point, the hilariously awful songs he posted on youtube protesting fountain square and for Jeffre's council run. Sadly, it looks like they've been taken down. Citybeat should be ashamed for giving him the time of day.

 

Cincinnati is blessed with perhaps the most inept, ignorant, misguided and motley group of activists this country has ever seen.

“They don’t have a history of being accurate with their predictions,” he says. “That’s why the county has such a hole in its budget. The sales tax projections pushed by (Cincinnati City Councilman Jeff) Berding and others didn’t come through, and now we have to find the money someplace else.”

 

A better model of economic development would be one that doesn’t displace residents in the process, Smitherman adds.

 

“Our neighborhoods in the African-American community and the Appalachian community are suffering from a lack of investment that isn’t tied to gentrification,” he says. “They need to come in and invest in projects and infrastructure without moving the people already there.”

 

This is the nugget that means something. For everyone hopping on Smitherman's back, remember that OTR was abandoned by whites after WWII and the city destroyed The West End/Queensgate, where blacks never wanted to leave. This is nothing more than Cincinnati's racial tension creeping up again. Other things:

 

There should not be a conflict of interest between developers and council members. This is highly unethical and should be considered corruption.

 

The city had an opportunity to support OTR at Broadway Commons and chose the riverfront because they were listening to suburbanites and those who have negative impressions of downtown and its black youth.

 

When is the city going to do something about Avondale?

 

Smitherman isn't as wacky as he's made out to be. The city is upset because he sniffed out some of that same 'ol, same 'ol in Cincinnati. FWIW, I'm pro-rail.

Smitherman IS wacky...and clueless. 

 

This has nothing to do with the advancement of colored people.  Gentrification has no merit when OTR is 70% vacant, or whatever the number is.

 

When are the people of Avondale going to do something about Avondale?

 

You really think this is a conflict of interest with Bortz, and he supports streetcars b/c he works for Towne Properties?  Unethical, corruption? You must be Smitherman.

Can somebody please tell me why ANYBODY takes anything that Jason Haap aka 'The Dean' has to say seriously. The man is a complete idiot, and has protested nearly every good thing to happen in this city in the last five years.

 

If his pen name isn't pretentious enough just check out his personal blog site:

http://jasonhaap.blogspot.com/

Some high school news coverage

 

http://www.goaves.com/9001/Website%202008-09/TheLeafOnline/PDFs/December%2008/12.pdf

Can somebody please tell me why ANYBODY takes anything that Jason Haap aka 'The Dean' has to say seriously. The man is a complete idiot, and has protested nearly every good thing to happen in this city in the last five years.

 

If his pen name isn't pretentious enough just check out his personal blog site:

http://jasonhaap.blogspot.com/

 

I'm ashamed that he and I share a degree from the same institution.

 

I also enjoy the banner at the bottom of the page that just repeats his name over and over....

Jason Haap is an idiot, and the NAACP is aimed at maintaining the status quo.  That about sums up these recent developments.

 

Changing the city charter for issues like this is silly, and even if they can get the signatures, I don't think it would pass.  We elect people to make these decisions for us, and only in extreme cases should the electorate attempt to override our representatives.  Technically, it's almost exactly what the system was designed to be protected against - uninformed decisions based upon emotions. 

This proposed initiative petition is one of the most ill-conceived, self-destructive ideas I've ever seen from an NAACP chapter. This would cause urban-friendly, transformative public transportation improvements in Cincinnati to ground to a halt. Meanwhile highway investments (which seldom benefit Cincinnati's poorest citizens) will continue to happen unabated. Nearly 20 percent of Cincinnati's driving-age residents do not own cars. The intent of this proposed initiative petition is like setting your lifeboat on fire to stay warm when a more comfortable, solid ship is within reach.

 

I'm ashamed that he and I share a degree from the same institution.

 

I also enjoy the banner at the bottom of the page that just repeats his name over and over....

 

I really hope that you don't go around telling everyone your name is REK, MA.

 

Sorry, practically everyone i know has some form of advanced degree.  It really isn't that impressive.

 

As far as Smitherman goes, i don't understand why he doesn't want to help out Over The Rhine.  Is it because he is afraid that rich white kids will move into the hundreds of vacant buildings and it may become a vibrant part of the community?  Will this drive out the poor folk that are there right now?

 

Won't mass transit help out all of these people? or the disabled? or whomever lives downtown?

Hello, I am Sherman Cahal, BS. No, that doesn't stand for bullshit. Can I spare you my resume in the hopes that you will give me another job?

Smitherman IS wacky...and clueless.

 

This has nothing to do with the advancement of colored people.  Gentrification has no merit when OTR is 70% vacant, or whatever the number is.

 

When are the people of Avondale going to do something about Avondale?

 

You really think this is a conflict of interest with Bortz, and he supports streetcars b/c he works for Towne Properties?  Unethical, corruption? You must be Smitherman.

 

Thanks for bringing it back to the central issue - Why is OTR so vacant?

 

You're missing the big picture.  Smitherman knows this won't work.  People need representation, and he is representing for those disenfranchised in Cincinnati.  This is a segregated city that is attempting to revitalize a segregated core.  OTR used to be white.  Whites lost interest, and poor blacks were encouraged to live there due to the location of social services and cheap rents.  Now that whites have taken a renewed interest to urban living, blacks who have put up with the pathetic policies of this city should have no say, no voice in what is going on in this city.  Why do you think proportional representation has been such an issue in this town, going back to the creation of proportional representation in this country? 

 

The NAACP is doing due diligence by garnering media attention to what is indeed very vague language concerning the future of OTR and the streetcar.

 

The NAACP has been screaming about Avondale for the longest.  In fact, the local chapter is located on Reading in the areas of Bond Hill and Avondale.  Residents elect officials under the law because it is a more effective way of delegating municipal duties, as well as promoting progress for that municipality.  In other words, it's the City's job to fix the City.

 

You don't have a problem with developers doubling as politicians?  I know it's always been a very fine line, but wow...politicians have a responsibility to their constituency.  Developers have a responsibility to their firm.

Maybe not directly the city but there is work going on in Avondale:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,3120.30.html

 

Not to mention the fact that every neighborhood in the city has a designated business district that is eligible for funds from the city

 

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/cdap/pages/-3488-/

You mean this job: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,3120.30.html?

 

The fact is the city is investing in business districts

 

I was aware of what the Consortium is doing in Avondale, and I certainly hope it works out in a timely fashion.  It still stands that the Consortium is a collective of employers and organizations, none of which are the City of Cincinnati.  Just hospitals, corporations, and developers, the same group of people that run the city, and have been given free reign Uptown for decades.  If anything, they are giving back from an area they've took so much from.

I agree that Bortz has a conflict of interest and should step down from his position at Towne. Like he said I don't think Towne owns much property along the route but it doesn't matter. Even if he acts ethically, and there's nothing to suggest he hasn't, it looks bad.

The CITY shouldn't be in the business necessarily of developing the city's business (i.e. the city shouldn't build buildings for business or the like.) The CITY SHOULD be in the business of PROVIDING OPPORTUNITIES for increased development, the potential for economic returns, and incentives for people and businesses to relate (i.e utilities, public transit, roads, etc) The streetcar provides those opportunities... REGARDLESS of race.

 

Saying that race is an issue for this is low and debasing to the black community.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=edit0202&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae8ab9c9c-3e4b-46b9-a08d-a17c4ecdcdc7Post%3a150098c0-c07d-4625-91e5-da3f230a431f&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

 

Somebody a little more eloquent than I, PLEASE WRITE LETTERS TO THE EDITOR

The CITY shouldn't be in the business necessarily of developing the city's business (i.e. the city shouldn't build buildings for business or the like.) The CITY SHOULD be in the business of PROVIDING OPPORTUNITIES for increased development, the potential for economic returns, and incentives for people and businesses to relate (i.e utilities, public transit, roads, etc) The streetcar provides those opportunities... REGARDLESS of race.

 

Exactly.  Government should be investing in its capital (i.e. infrastructure and what not) and also protect the health, safety, and welfare of their citizens.  Beyond that the role of government is greatly diminished.  In my mind that seems to be a pretty conservative viewpoint.

The other thing people don't realize is that, of the $185 mil or so that the streetcar cost, most doesn't exist without the streetcar project. It's not like the money is there and being set aside for the streetcar. The money is there specifically for the streetcar project and ONLY because of the streetcar project

 

Chris Smitherman:

“The problem is, there’s only one checkbook and we all put our tax dollars in that bucket,” he says.

 

That's a lie and he knows it. There is not one checkbook. There are thousands scattered throughout government and the private sector. They all have different criteria for what they can be used for.

Why it is assumed that if we build a streetcar through OTR up to UC, that African-Americans will be excluded from using it and living in the neighborhood? It would be great if OTR became a North Avondale/KHeights/PRidge/Paddock Hills rather than another Mt. Adams/Lookout.

Cranley = gone. Who is the best replacement that could really push the streetcar? (I still have not gone through all of the local politicians yet.)

 

Cranley replacement coming

By Jane Prendergast, Cincinnati Enquirer, January 8, 2009

 

The newest Cincinnati City Council member will be chosen after interviews Monday with council Democrats and other party leaders.

 

They're deciding on a replacement for John Cranley, who left council Wednesday after eight years. He could not run again because of term limits. He left early to focus on some development projects and to join the Keating Muething & Klekamp law firm.

Greg Harris

I personally talked with Brian Garry last year, and he was very very skeptical of streetcars, although he said he supported the idea of light rail.

Greg Harris

 

Garry is inexplicably anti streetcar. 

 

Harris. Greg Harris.

Please support Greg Harris, a dependable vote for public transportation.

 

Email council telling them you support Greg Harris and public transportation.

 

Jeff Berding = [email protected]

 

Laketa Cole = [email protected]

 

Vice Mayor David Crowley = [email protected]

 

Cecil Thomas = [email protected]

 

So the "green" guy from Clifton is anti-streetcar and the guy from WPH is pro-streetcar. 

 

Wow this makes no sense.

What could be more green than a system which enables people to live complete lives within a very small footprint?

 

Somehow that message hasn't gotten through.

Charlie Winburn ready to ride anti-rail sentiment

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2009/01/12/tidbits1.html

 

How’s this for an effective transit solution: Charlie Winburn’s downtown trolley doesn’t even have to be built in order to take him back to Cincinnati City Hall.

 

So says Pete Witte, a Price Hill neighborhood activist and political junkie, who ran as a Republican for City Council and lost in 2003. Witte said Winburn’s activism against a downtown streetcar system will enhance his chances of recapturing a City Council seat.

$219 million? where did that come from?

I was in Tampa very briefly last week and saw part of the new Tampa streetcar line.  Looks like it is mostly single-track and almost entirely oriented toward tourists.  It runs between that city's downtown (which incidentally has fewer historic buildings than any given block in Cincinnati) and the area where tourists board cruise ships, not through a traditional urban area like downtown Cincinnati or Over-the-Rhine.  Also the single track runs in its own lane separated from traffic by a curb. For those reason I don't think it should be grouped with the Portland streetcar or what is proposed in Cincinnati.  It does look though like it's somewhat successful at tying together two disparate areas and allowing people staying at downtown hotels to avoid cab rides to the tourist area.  But in short the Cincinnati proposal, although only 2 miles from tip-to-tip, is a lot more significant than what I saw from this Tampa operation.   

 

I can confirm everything you said about Tampa. It's a tourist line and from the stats I've seen, ridership reflects that. While decent, it's mostly entertainment based. It should only be compared to Cincinnati's proposal in the sense that Cincy has MORE built-in advantages to generate real ridership.

 

(And incidentally, you are also right about Tampa's lack of historic buildings. Jacksonville is the only city in Florida with much historic building stock, and even that is nothing compared to any couple of blocks in OTR)

For what it's worth, I don't believe Chris Bortz has a position with Towne.  His family does, but I believe he stopped being directly invovled some time ago due to the conflict of interest concerns. 

 

The streetcar should happen for many reasons, most of which are eloquently expressed in this thread.  Saying it shouldn't because a developer's son sees value in the project and is pushing it along even though it minimally affects his family's developments is hogwash. 

OK. I'm getting upset. Where are all the pro-streetcar council members right now? Charlie Winburn, NAACP and COAST are dragging this thing through the mud and all we have is Bortz defending himself more than the streetcar plan.